AI, RevOps, and the Future of Sales - Jacco van der Kooij
In this week's episode, we delve into the evolving landscape of sales with Jacco van der Kooij, founder of Winning by Design and a renowned expert in go-to-market strategies.
We begin by reflecting on the "Golden Age of SaaS," a period defined by rapid growth but also unsustainable business dynamics. As market conditions shift, we explore how revenue teams must adapt to thrive in the current environment.
AI is becoming an integral part of the sales industry. Jacco shares his insights on how AI will transform sales roles, automating many tasks that currently consume significant time and resources and shrinking the number of jobs.
Revenue Operations has a crucial role in this changing landscape, as the only function positioned to optimize the end-to-end buying process.
Join us for a thoughtful discussion on the past, present, and future of sales, and gain valuable insights from one of the industry's leading minds.
Thanks to Our Sponsor
Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.
If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.
You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.
What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.
About Today's Guest
Jacco van der Kooij is an internationally renowned author, business leader, and thought leader on revenue growth and strategy. He is the founder of Winning By Design, a global B2B revenue consulting and training company, which consults for and trains GTM teams at companies such as Uber Eats, DocuSign, MURAL and OwnBackup.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaccovanderkooij/
Key Topics
- [00:00] - Introduction
- [01:27] - The Golden Age of SaaS
- [04:21] - The old style vs. the new style of buying
- [08:34] - Adapting to the new reality
- [16:19] - Sales rockstars vs. consistent process
- [19:01] - The role of RevOps in establishing repeatability
- [26:50] - How to get salespeople to follow process
- [32:06] - AI vs. humans in sales
- [46:14] - Increasing focus on delivering impact
Thanks to Our Sponsor
Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode.
We all know that outbound is really tough. Now imagine a world where you’re reaching people who know your product, love your product, and are actually happy to hear from you.
UserGems makes that a reality. They identify your customers and champions who change jobs and automatically push new contacts to your CRM so your team can follow up.
If you’re not reaching out to customer job changers, you’re missing opportunities. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners.
Resource Links
- Winning by Design Resource Library
- Revenue Architecture Book, by Jacco van der Kooij
- The Revenue Formula Podcast - The SaaS Reset and what's next
- Marc Andreeson - Why Software is Eating the World
Learn More
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Transcript
Jacco van der Kooij: It
2
:Justin Norris: your career sometime after
:
3
:business is probably a little bit skewed.
4
:For about 10 years, we lived
in a world where SaaS companies
5
:aimed to grow at all costs.
6
:They were raising vast sums
of money and burning that cash
7
:almost as quickly, pouring it into
salespeople, advertising, technology.
8
:Et cetera.
9
:And the strategy basically was
let's grow quickly enough to
10
:reach that next funding round.
11
:It was a world with relatively little
accountability or scrutiny around many
12
:types of go to market expenses, and
certainly not one where profitability was
13
:the end goal, at least for most companies.
14
:So that world is gone
now, maybe gone for good.
15
:And many go to market professionals
are still struggling to
16
:understand exactly what it means.
17
:And how to adapt.
18
:So here to help us figure that out.
19
:We have Jaco van der Kooij.
20
:He is the founder of winning by design,
a B2B revenue consulting and training
21
:company focused on sustainable growth.
22
:He's one of the most influential go
to market thought leaders around and
23
:author of the book revenue architecture.
24
:Jacko, it's a pleasure
to have you on the show
25
:Jacco van der Kooij: an absolute
pleasure and a treat to be here.
26
:Thank you for having me.
27
:Justin Norris: I want to start off,
a little bit of a retrospective
28
:in preparing for this episode.
29
:I listened to a recent podcast
appearance you did on the revenue letter.
30
:Uh, and I'm going to bounce off
some of the ideas that you shared
31
:there, and then we'll go a little
bit deeper into the current state
32
:and what we should do going forward.
33
:But in that show, you referred to
what you called the golden age of
34
:SAS, from roughly 2012 to 2021.
35
:Talk us through a little bit, like what
was, that golden age and what were the
36
:conditions that existed during that time,
37
:Jacco van der Kooij:
Yeah, fantastic question.
38
:So late 2011, Mark, Andreessen
came out with a influential post.
39
:Uh, and it says why software
is going to eat the world.
40
:And in that post, you know, like he
outlined for what nowadays we know as the
41
:SaaS, uh, wave of companies that came.
42
:When he launched that post, we were
dealing with what we refer to as gen one
43
:SaaS companies, Salesforce and so forth.
44
:Since that day.
45
:We have launched 000 SAS companies
and all these companies during the
46
:timeframe from between 2012 and 2000,
you know, late:
47
:launched approximately on the same model.
48
:And that model is call up a person, tell
them you got a SaaS offering and then
49
:sell them that SaaS offering through a
form of pestering emails, phone calls
50
:and whatnot, social engagement and close
that deal shortly follow after that.
51
:That was the main way of doing that.
52
:The way we could afford that
is we used relatively low cost
53
:salespeople, aka sales development
reps, in order to make those calls.
54
:Over time, tools like Outreach
and Sales Loft and Groove, all
55
:that, came to perform that task.
56
:On the lower end, MixMax is another tool.
57
:And they provided that email automation.
58
:Combined with the SDR in order to create,
industrial, scaled pestering of, buyers.
59
:And you pick up the phone and primarily
you were trying to tell the buyer.
60
:why to buy?
61
:And that was because there was
a balanced difference between
62
:what the buyer knew about your
product and what you had to sell.
63
:The buyer often wasn't as aware of
the solutions out there, the problems
64
:that organizations were running into,
and that balanced, the difference
65
:in balance was essentially filled
in by SDRs, email campaigns, thought
66
:leaderships, events, and so on,
bringing that buyer up to speed.
67
:Those days no longer work that has
come to an end primarily in two forms
68
:number one The growth rate has come
down significantly about to half of
69
:what it used to be during 2019 and
the cost has gone up almost twice.
70
:So we got half the growth at twice
the cost And that is a problem
71
:that we're dealing with today.
72
:And as a result, many companies are
trying to figure out like what to do next.
73
:Now,
74
:Justin Norris: you know, as a software
buyer during that period, I can just,
75
:just from my own limited perspective,
Feel how things have changed because
76
:back in the day, you know, you wanted
to buy a new tool And you would you
77
:know open up requests for finance and
maybe make some business case around
78
:Yeah, you know if it closes one or
two more deals, you know, this tool
79
:is going to pay for itself And it was
generally a process of rubber stamping.
80
:We had money in the bank.
81
:It was great And there was very
little scrutiny around whether
82
:those tools actually, you know
Did what they were supposed to do
83
:whether like a lot of shelf where?
84
:Today, at least for me, it's an
extremely different process, a much
85
:more difficult process to buy software.
86
:Are you seeing this dynamic play
out where people are now purchasing
87
:in a completely different way?
88
:Jacco van der Kooij: what you
are experiencing is the old style
89
:versus the new style of buying.
90
:So if you go back 20 years, it becomes
real clear what you're buying on.
91
:You're buying on two things.
92
:Now, if I go back, let
me go back even further.
93
:I go back 50 years, 50 years ago,
when we're selling high tech, high
94
:tech is sold in millions of dollars.
95
:And that means that there are only few
P organizations who can afford that.
96
:Those organizations
therefore are qualified.
97
:Do you get the budget for this?
98
:And so IBM computers became
big and therefore they launched
99
:a process called band, right?
100
:Do you have the budget?
101
:Are you the authority and what's
the timeline that you needed?
102
:If we progress from there, let's
say that happened in the:
103
:if we progress to early 2000s,
many people are buying routers.
104
:And as routers come out, the technology
accelerates so fast that the new
105
:generation of routers outperforms
the previous generations of by a
106
:landslide in a matter of years.
107
:But in this case, routers are
written off over a seven year period.
108
:In order to overcome that, sellers now
have to offer what is called an ROI.
109
:Hey, I'm buying back your old routers.
110
:I'm selling you the new routers.
111
:And in the next three years, you're
going to make a huge amount of profit
112
:based on what these new routers can
do in this rapidly growing world
113
:that we today call the internet.
114
:We just have two specific methods, BANT
and the second method, uh, being ROI.
115
:So budget and ROIs.
116
:Now, if we go back to the early
:
117
:the past decade on budget and ROI.
118
:But the point is this, SaaS services
by definition have a 10x ROI.
119
:By definition.
120
:It's the way how the pricing was created.
121
:Scrapped a million dollars upfront.
122
:You're paying the million Dell.
123
:Yeah.
124
:Upfront you pay 5, 000 a year, right?
125
:Or 10, 000 a year or 20, 000 a year.
126
:So the ROI by definition is becoming.
127
:Positive 10 X every SAS service by the
very definition can say, folks, you
128
:close one deal on what we sell and you
pay the product pays back for itself.
129
:It pays for itself is one
of the most common pictures.
130
:Therefore, budget is always available.
131
:You know, like when you sell a company,
a 5 million software solution like
132
:SAP and, and Oracle in the early days,
folks, you got to have budget for that.
133
:And they've got to be allocated.
134
:But if I sell you a 10, 000
annual service, of course, there's
135
:some budget available somewhere.
136
:What you're experiencing as
simple as you say it, right?
137
:Is that budget and ROI
no longer are qualified.
138
:You no longer have access to that,
or they can no longer be used.
139
:What we today are experiencing is
that people are buying on priority.
140
:Is this important to me right now?
141
:Of course I have the budget.
142
:Of course.
143
:I know you have a 10 X ROI, but I
cannot afford every software SaaS
144
:product that can sell a 10 X ROI.
145
:So I can only have two or three and every
quarter I can only add one or two at most.
146
:So are you the one of all
the ones that offered.
147
:10 X ROI.
148
:Are you the one that I need right now?
149
:And the problem with
priority is it fluctuates.
150
:And most organizations have not
adjusted to selling to priority.
151
:They primarily are still
selling based on ROI and budget.
152
:And that's a mismatch.
153
:Justin Norris: And so as a team
experiencing that mismatch, where does
154
:somebody begin, the circumstances have
changed and we have teams chugging along
155
:in the same way that they have been.
156
:And all of a sudden, like the grounds
falling out from underneath them.
157
:maybe you've got people calling
you Jacko, like, what do I do?
158
:Things aren't working the way
they used to, like, what are you
159
:telling people about how to adapt
160
:Jacco van der Kooij: Yeah, I'm going to
give you a few basic principles to work.
161
:Uh, first of all, may I ask, do
you like being sold to, do you like
162
:somebody knocking on your door?
163
:Do you like being stopped in the street?
164
:Do you like receiving
endless amount of emails?
165
:Do you like being
166
:sold to today?
167
:Justin Norris: almost?
168
:Never know
169
:Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
170
:People hate being sold.
171
:Universal.
172
:Okay.
173
:There's a rare exception like my
brother, who all of us in the family go
174
:to when we buy a car, because he loves
to pester, sellers at the dealership.
175
:Right.
176
:You know, we all have one
of those in the family.
177
:Everybody else hate being sold to, right.
178
:We, we literally begrudgingly
with heavy heart go to a dealer
179
:in order to buy a car nowadays.
180
:We hate being sold to,
but let me ask you this.
181
:Do you sometimes love to go to an
Amazon or similar and go buy a product
182
:that you already know what you want?
183
:You just, you know, like
184
:you love to buy, don't you?
185
:Justin Norris: sometimes a bit too much.
186
:Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
187
:So human beings, number rule, number
one, hate being sold, but we love to buy.
188
:Number two, very important.
189
:Buyers define the process, not sellers.
190
:Buyers define how they want to be sold to.
191
:We cannot tell them how
they're going to buy from us.
192
:It won't work on a scale.
193
:Will it work occasionally with a customer?
194
:Absolutely.
195
:But nine out of 10 times if they have
an RFP process, you can use all the
196
:provocative and challenging techniques
in order to try to figure that out.
197
:But yes, one in 10 you win, but the
other nine you will lose because
198
:you're not adhering to the process.
199
:Buyers define the process, not sellers.
200
:And number three, when you are
selling to a customer, you have to
201
:give them a great buying experience.
202
:If the experience is not great and
experience can be fast turnaround,
203
:a detailed discovery call, fantastic
demo, whatever it is that they want.
204
:You got to give them a fantastic
experience, not on every call, but
205
:you got to have a pretty decent.
206
:Now, if it's a high velocity
sale, it needs to be like.
207
:Quick responsive time.
208
:If it's a detailed product and you got
to keep a simple demo, if it requires
209
:the entire team on their end to meet,
you need to run a fantastic stakeholder
210
:meeting, whatever it is you need to
match to their process with excellence.
211
:Those are the three things.
212
:If you do these three things right,
you're going to be successful
213
:in today's and modern sales.
214
:Most people , think that they
can tell the buyer how to buy.
215
:They focus on a sales experience
and they don't excel in several
216
:of the steps that they do.
217
:And they think that
the product is so good.
218
:It will simply overcome that.
219
:Well, we've got 36, 000 products that
are competing for budget right now.
220
:Justin Norris: So to drill a little
bit deeper into that in the context
221
:of a sales process, because it's a
strange contradiction, like you say,
222
:like people, they don't want to be
sold to, and you're absolutely right.
223
:And yet we have to engage in
this dance with salespeople to
224
:get our buying objective done.
225
:How can a sales team, you know, I'm a
VP of sales, I'm looking at my process,
226
:where would I start to try to make this
more delightful and more differentiated?
227
:Jacco van der Kooij: I love
that you use the term dance.
228
:And the reason I say that why I'm
triggered by dancing is as follows.
229
:With dancing, there are moves that
both partners know, but every time
230
:it is executed slightly different,
you may be in a different dance room,
231
:you may be in a different setting.
232
:The music may be different,
but yet you execute the dance
233
:in a way that is repeatable.
234
:There are certain moves that
is referred to as process.
235
:And this is what is the number one
thing that people oversee, particularly
236
:SAS, most SAS companies are startups
trying to become scale ups, right?
237
:And most of them, when they
become a startup, they done
238
:so by ignoring processes.
239
:Now, as they become successful,
they reach one, two, three,
240
:four, 5 million in revenue.
241
:And as they grow, they often grow
over a relatively short period of
242
:time, about 18 months to 24 months.
243
:They grow from a 10 to 20 person company
to 80 to a hundred person company.
244
:In that they're growing extremely fast
during a critical time at a time that
245
:they do not have processes in place.
246
:And so it becomes an 80 to
a hundred person company in
247
:a relatively chaotic way.
248
:Lack of processes.
249
:Now, these 80 people that joined a
company in that period of time, they
250
:look at it and they go like, you
don't have an onboarding process.
251
:You don't have this.
252
:And they bring their old processes
with them from the previous company.
253
:And this mishmash from all this like
diverse cultures of processes is all
254
:mismatched into a company at a hundred
person running at like 10, 50 million.
255
:And it is absolute chaos.
256
:We're running multiple
go to market machinery.
257
:We're wanting ABM campaigns.
258
:We having SDRs, we having like a
fantastic online purchase experience.
259
:It is all randomized and we
have not a focus on anything.
260
:And almost every company at 10 to
20 million runs like that, like
261
:nine out of 10 run like that.
262
:And that is not a successful way to go.
263
:One out of 10 does find its way.
264
:Now, if I tell you what is the primary
way that HubSpot became known for, what
265
:is the GTM motion that they made popular
266
:Justin Norris: Inbound marketing,
267
:Jacco van der Kooij: HubSpot and inbound
marketing, what they sell and how they
268
:sell it is a perfect match, right?
269
:Now, if I tell you, what is Slack
used for, what kind of motion did they
270
:use?
271
:Justin Norris: product led growth.
272
:Jacco van der Kooij: Product led growth.
273
:The product, what they
sell and how they sell it.
274
:Perfect match.
275
:what do you hear a lot of Tesla owners?
276
:How did they buy?
277
:Why are they always bragging
about how they bought?
278
:What is the great experience
that the Tesla buyer buys that,
279
:that they brag about?
280
:What you'll see a lot are buying online.
281
:They picking online, they check boxes
and then the Tesla gets delivered in a
282
:weird way, a self driving car and a self
buying experience itself or to a match.
283
:And so every time, if I, speak of
these, these things are a match.
284
:This is the way how you
achieve 10 to 20 million.
285
:You focus on one GTM and you make
it work in that go to market motion.
286
:In that one motion that you
have, you pick a handful of
287
:experiences that your customer on
that journey really appreciates.
288
:If you have an online experience, you
better have a really easy and conversion
289
:website, really fast response time.
290
:I don't want to click and have to wait
for a week for you to set up my instance
291
:on how I can use your software, right?
292
:I want to click.
293
:I want immediately log in.
294
:I want to download it right away,
whatever it is that you'd make
295
:me do, but I want instant PLG.
296
:Instant.
297
:If I have deep enterprise sales, I want
to make sure that my discovery call
298
:with you is detailed, that I have an
architect available to me, that I can
299
:have a detailed experience with that.
300
:Right.
301
:I want to make sure, does
it integrate with my system?
302
:Can I ask you about which, version
of Salesforce you integrate with and
303
:how you access my content and what
the security privileges are in a way?
304
:That matches the buying experience.
305
:So you have to make that a phenomenal
experience, but you don't need
306
:to focus on dozens of moments.
307
:All you need to do is a handful, because
if you make those moments, Excel stand
308
:above, it will pull all the other moments
that you engage with a customer up.
309
:Justin Norris: in dealing with sales
teams and supporting them, I've observed
310
:like this distribution where, generally
have a few, wizards who can pull rabbits
311
:out of hats and Who can figure it out,
like whatever the problem is, they'll,
312
:they'll just find a way, like that's just
in their DNA and they can make it work.
313
:and you have some people that can kind
of go through the motions and, and
314
:you know, there's a curve from there.
315
:To what extent, at that pivotal change,
that stage where a company is starting
316
:to scale that team, into the, 10
million to a hundred million range,
317
:should they be looking for like the
superstars, the rock stars, or should
318
:they be looking for people who can just.
319
:You will follow the process that
I've laid out in a, in a capable way.
320
:Jacco van der Kooij: In
the end, if you can hire 10
321
:superstars, hire 10 superstars.
322
:Superstars will generally
help you progress the fastest
323
:and so on and so forth.
324
:The problem is.
325
:Out of every 10 superstars you
hire, only one is a superstar.
326
:And the other nine are wannabe
superstars who think they're already
327
:superstars who want to be paid like
superstars, but they unfortunately
328
:don't perform like superstars, right?
329
:And that's why we call
superstars superstars.
330
:There's only, you know, a few of them.
331
:The other nine simply
have to execute process.
332
:Now, what a superstar really does well is
they can make a lemonade out of lemons.
333
:They can find what is the most
successful way of selling.
334
:Then with that, they in a
way establish a processes.
335
:They're cutting their way through
the forest, so to speak, right?
336
:With a machete, you're cutting through it.
337
:And as they come to the other
side, they have created the path.
338
:That path is a repeatable process
that needs to be executed.
339
:By the next ones who all think they're
superstars who are all starting
340
:to cut into the forest, but they
don't know where the other side is.
341
:So they end up at random spots
costing you lots of money.
342
:It's the wrong thing to do.
343
:They should just follow
what the superstar has done.
344
:Now, the superstar likes to keep
going on that route, circumvent
345
:any processes along the way.
346
:And at some point in time, you
want to pull that superstar out
347
:and go like, okay, Calm down.
348
:I still need you, but I need you to open
up a new market, a new region, sell a new
349
:product, open up a whole new thing for
a brand new product that we've created.
350
:That's where superstars excel at.
351
:That should be replaced by
a repeatable sales force.
352
:That marker where that occurs is
between 8 to 10 million dollars.
353
:Superstars, on your first go to market
motion, you need them to take you
354
:to 5, million dollars in revenue.
355
:Then process needs to take over and by
about 15 million, your company needs to
356
:be so ingrained in processes that you can
deploy your superstar on a new GTM motion,
357
:a new market, a new product and whatnot.
358
:Justin Norris: And you're talking
about process repeatability.
359
:This is the language of revenue
operations and, uh, you know, large
360
:percentage of the listeners of the
show kind of fit into that bucket.
361
:Talk about the role that RevOps can play
in helping facilitate this transition.
362
:Jacco van der Kooij: So there's
two kinds of roles that are very
363
:similar that, that play, from two
different tacks, RevOps and FP& A.
364
:Imagine the following.
365
:I got three systems.
366
:I got the lead generation system, the lead
development system, and the sales system.
367
:And for the time being, I'm
only looking at the acquisition.
368
:So I got the lead generation, lead
development, and sales system.
369
:Now the lead generation
system, who's responsible?
370
:Who's responsible in generally to generate
371
:leads?
372
:Justin Norris: Marketing,
373
:Jacco van der Kooij: And who's
responsible for developing leads?
374
:And
375
:Justin Norris: SDRs.
376
:Jacco van der Kooij: who's responsible for
377
:closing the leads for closing
378
:the opportunities.
379
:Justin Norris: The sales team.
380
:Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
381
:Now who's responsible for all those three
382
:Justin Norris: Well, the chief revenue
officer, if you have one, who's,
383
:uh, who's overseeing all three.
384
:Jacco van der Kooij: and what I'm going
to describe is you go for the CRO.
385
:I want you to think these three
processes, these three systems, lead
386
:gen, lead development, and sales
are three different subsystems.
387
:Each system, if it's process.
388
:when you combine them, they
create a fourth system.
389
:This fourth system is the system of the
three combined, aggregated all together.
390
:It's a fourth system.
391
:That fourth system has its own
attributes, has its own characteristics.
392
:That fourth system says, If you
generate too many of the wrong leads,
393
:I'm going to spend a huge amount of
resources on my sales, which is the
394
:most expensive part of what I'm having.
395
:And so now what I'm seeing is
I am abusing my salespeople
396
:costing extensive amount of money.
397
:This is the thought for you to consider.
398
:What we see here is that that fourth
system with all of its own and unique
399
:requirements, that's the RevOps.
400
:Justin Norris: So looking across
the entire scope of the go to
401
:market process and finding how are
these interacting with each other?
402
:Where are we seeing inefficiencies?
403
:Where are we seeing waste?
404
:Is that what you mean?
405
:Jacco van der Kooij: That's right.
406
:And where we're seeing
waste is a phenomenal one.
407
:but often at the connective points,
what leads are generated, which lead
408
:developments are working and so on.
409
:The entire process.
410
:Now, if you think about it, client
acquisition cost covers all of that.
411
:All of marketing and sales, CAC payback
discusses all of the acquisition.
412
:These are typical things that
RevOps are very responsible for.
413
:Now, a CRO goes beyond that.
414
:The CRO in many cases should
also cover the revenue generated
415
:from existing customers.
416
:I want you to think about the following
417
:in your world.
418
:What does the CRO cover?
419
:Marketing sales and customer
success or just marketing and
420
:sales or just customer success?
421
:What is the today's common CRO?
422
:What do they cover?
423
:Justin Norris: I can speak for my company.
424
:They're really just focused on
sales and account management.
425
:Success is separate.
426
:Marketing is separate.
427
:And I often see them, maybe covering sales
and success with marketing being separate.
428
:Not always, but I often see
marketing splintered up.
429
:Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
430
:follow my thinking down here.
431
:I'm operating a business at 1
million ARR recurring revenue.
432
:Let's say I have a million dollar
budget in marketing, right?
433
:I'm spending it all on acquisition, right?
434
:Win more deals at 1 million.
435
:A hundred percent goes to win more deals.
436
:I'm operating I'm operating a
business at 5 million in revenue.
437
:I got 2 million in marketing budget.
438
:Where does most of my marketing
budget get associated with?
439
:Where do I spend almost all my
marketing on at 5 million in
440
:AR?
441
:Justin Norris: It's still acquisition.
442
:I would say
443
:Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
444
:At 10 million.
445
:Justin Norris: usually still acquisition.
446
:Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
447
:Now I want you to imagine this bar
of recurring revenues going up.
448
:And this bar in the beginning, it's
all acquisition and the acquisition
449
:piece is going to get nothing but
a tiny sliver sitting on top of the
450
:retention at a hundred million dollars.
451
:I'm running 95 million retention
at that point in time and
452
:a tiny sliver of 5 million.
453
:comes from acquisition expansion, right?
454
:Everything else is renewal.
455
:Where am I still spending the
lion's share of my marketing on?
456
:Justin Norris: I would say
the majority of companies are
457
:still focused on acquisition.
458
:Jacco van der Kooij: And
I'm talking 95%, right?
459
:It's not like, Oh, it's 60, 40.
460
:No, I'm talking about for every
19 on acquisition, there's 1 on.
461
:Why is that?
462
:Because the chief revenue officer.
463
:Continued its focus primarily
to see where growth comes from.
464
:It's growth mindset is still that
of where we were 20 years ago and 20
465
:years ago, where does growth come from?
466
:Every quarter win more deals,
because if I don't win deals and
467
:I don't have any new revenue.
468
:So this growth mindset that most
growth comes from acquisition and a
469
:disproportionate amount of spending.
470
:Now you say marketing dollars, right?
471
:Let's not forget that acquisition.
472
:Also contains the lion's share of all
the salaries and compensation plans
473
:in that tiny sliver, a huge amount of
spending also goes to sellers, that tiny
474
:sliver that sits on top of that bar.
475
:That is because the CRO, although
they carry the title of CRO in most
476
:cases is nothing more, but a VP of
sales who promoted up to a CRO role,
477
:what we need when that CRO is rev ups,
need to look over the entire thing.
478
:And say it's like, Hey, not only
do I got the three systems lead
479
:generation, lead development, and sales.
480
:I also got onboarding.
481
:I got retention.
482
:I got expansion.
483
:That is a total of six processes.
484
:All of them combined in a total system
process called recurring revenue.
485
:RevOps is responsible for all of it.
486
:And it communicates with the
CRO in processes and data.
487
:And that is how it explains to the CRO.
488
:What works and what doesn't.
489
:Now what's missing here is the
final piece is the financial
490
:planning and accounting team.
491
:And for me, the role of the future
is that RevOps needs to know a little
492
:bit more about FP& A and FP& A needs
to know a little bit more at RevOps.
493
:And the way to communicate to the CRO
is not through the enablement team.
494
:It's not telling the team, Oh,
the enablement team, we need
495
:to train the people better,
but it's to the finance team.
496
:And it says, based on what we're seeing,
here's where our money can be spent most
497
:efficiently with the most effectiveness.
498
:That is the modern CRO.
499
:The problem is that the CRO needs to
be capable of allocating budgets to
500
:marketing and tell marketing, you need
to spend more on customer marketing.
501
:They need to force marketing to do that.
502
:And today the CRO cannot do that.
503
:Like you said, because most of
the time the CMO is still out.
504
:That makes the CEO, the per de facto
GTM, the person responsible for GTM.
505
:It's the person who can allocate
the budget to the right thing.
506
:Advised by RevOps and FP& A.
507
:Now RevOps looks at conversion rates,
FP& A looks at salaries, right?
508
:They're like, everything
else is the same thing.
509
:You know, like they look at
the business the same way,
510
:efficiency and effectiveness, but
one has more of a cost mindset.
511
:The other one has more
of a growth mindset.
512
:Justin Norris: that
makes total sense to me.
513
:And let's say the CRO, is
persuaded by this financial data.
514
:You still have the very difficult
challenge of getting these messy human
515
:beings that we call salespeople or sales
development reps to follow a process.
516
:And I don't need to tell you that there
are challenges inherent in doing that.
517
:it's way easier to like program
a machine and, create automations
518
:but getting salespeople to follow
that process is super hard and
519
:open ended question.
520
:do you solve that problem?
521
:How do you think about that
problem and getting everybody
522
:to row in the same direction?
523
:Cause it's, it's as someone working in the
field, I can tell you it is exhausting.
524
:I'm sure you know, the same.
525
:Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
526
:Now, unfortunately, right at the same
point in time, artificial intelligence
527
:joined to chat, so to speak, right?
528
:so I want you to think of the
following, help me out here.
529
:Tell me some of the things that when
you as a buyer that you most value.
530
:Tell me what are the skills, the
traits that a salesperson has that
531
:you most value that you really want to
speak to a sales organization about,
532
:Justin Norris: they're
perceptive, thoughtful.
533
:They're truly thinking about my
business and my needs and are
534
:responding with, unique critical
thinking about my problems, highly
535
:responsive, highly accountable.
536
:Those are at least some of the key
things that come to mind for me.
537
:Jacco van der Kooij: but
knowing the product should be
538
:based knowledge, right?
539
:Knowing their product.
540
:Okay.
541
:Knowing you, the base level should also
542
:be based knowledge, right?
543
:Justin Norris: agree.
544
:Jacco van der Kooij: Following
up diligently should be.
545
:Part of
546
:course here, right?
547
:Justin Norris: Yeah,
548
:Jacco van der Kooij: Preparing
properly for the call should be
549
:done right
550
:Justin Norris: absolutely.
551
:Jacco van der Kooij: now.
552
:What you'll see is if I identify all
these as specific tasks, I say, you got
553
:to know your product, you got to know
the customer, you got to prepare the
554
:call to make sure that it's relevant for
them, you got to follow up diligently
555
:and you got to have a great call.
556
:If I call these five steps, then
I can tell you at least three of
557
:them can be replaced better by AI.
558
:Right?
559
:Now, if I have 20 sellers.
560
:And I can replace three out of the
five tasks with AI doing a better job.
561
:That means I replace 60
percent of the, capacity.
562
:Let's say that's all evenly skilled.
563
:That means I suddenly
don't need any longer.
564
:12 sellers.
565
:60 percent of 20 is 12.
566
:I only need eight sellers.
567
:What I want to talk to you about
is that, today, I want you to think
568
:about digging a hole with a shovel.
569
:And today I need 20
people to dig that hole.
570
:But then an excavator is invented
and the excavator can do a lot more.
571
:Now I still need to
point where the hole is.
572
:I still need to make sure that
I avoid the gas lines and the
573
:water lines and dig around it.
574
:But I don't need 20 pallet people
digging the hole any longer.
575
:Now, the reason why I use this analogy
is what are human beings designed
576
:to dig that hole in the first place?
577
:I say that today.
578
:We have 20 sellers, not because we
need them, but because it was the
579
:only way we were able to fill the gap.
580
:We have actually overhired
too many salespeople.
581
:And now, for example, with the sales
development role, we say, Oh my gosh, we
582
:need to fire so many sales development
because AI does a better job or does
583
:a lower cost job, whatever it is.
584
:What you find is, We were not supposed
to mass email people in the first place.
585
:We're doing the wrong job and we're using
human resources to do that wrong job.
586
:And now we're automating that with AI.
587
:We're completely on a wrong
process, executing it.
588
:In sales, this is in many cases, this
is the way we're calling on way too
589
:many customers for the wrong reason,
just trying to pitch something.
590
:So today we're using AI
mostly to do more better.
591
:We want to do more and growth at
Elkos was all about doing more.
592
:And now we're deploying
AI to do more better.
593
:What we should deploy AI
on is do better, better.
594
:We should have a better process.
595
:We should target our customers better and
AI can do and help us very well with that.
596
:So while we're still in
the age of do more better.
597
:The successful companies will trend
towards do more better, target better,
598
:have a better experience on the phone
when they're with the customer and so on.
599
:And that unfortunately requires
fewer salespeople because we have
600
:such a large amount of salespeople.
601
:I can literally hear the fatigue in your
voice of having to work with salespeople
602
:who don't want to adhere to process.
603
:Well, folks, when you do that in
the engineering trade, you're no
604
:longer going to be an engineer.
605
:When you do that to software
coders, you're no longer
606
:going to be a software coder.
607
:If welders don't weld the way
they're supposed to weld, and
608
:don't prepare and wear masks,
they're going to be out of a job!
609
:They're going to be replaced
by robots that do a better job.
610
:So to the case of AI, AI will be in the
same way, replacing human capacity in
611
:sales and marketing roles, the same way
that robots have replaced, uh, welding in
612
:manufacturing jobs, and it will be okay.
613
:and we will be better off
as a trade because of it.
614
:Justin Norris: So if I'm a salesperson
that wants to have one of those, few
615
:chairs that are remaining you know, at
the end of the game of musical chairs,
616
:they're removing some of the salespeople,
but we still need some of them.
617
:What are the key skills that
only a human will continue to
618
:be able to do in your opinion?
619
:Jacco van der Kooij: Be
passionate about your customer.
620
:The point is an AI system can do things
more higher frequency can do a 24 seven.
621
:can do it at lower costs,
can do it at higher quality.
622
:The only thing that AI doesn't have.
623
:Is emotion and what
makes a human so strong?
624
:Is it our emotional capability?
625
:One of those signals as others is passion.
626
:Passion is what keeps somebody up at night
when they wake up in the morning and say,
627
:I now know what the customer's problem
was and how I can help them solve it.
628
:That is passion.
629
:If you have passion, passion,
and you develop expertise, then
630
:you have nothing to be afraid of.
631
:Your problem is not that you're
going to replace by a robot.
632
:You're not, you're going to be replaced
by a passionate human being who uses AI.
633
:That's what you're going to, because
they found that with AI, they
634
:can diagnose the customer better.
635
:They can write a better solution.
636
:They can customize the proposals better.
637
:you are being replaced by a human
who uses AI, not by a robot.
638
:That's the thing that most people
are fearful of because they go like,
639
:dude, this was such a fantastic,
easy money making gig that I had.
640
:I had to do very little and I closed a
little and I made like, if you compare
641
:that, salespeople often make once to
twice as much as people who had to study
642
:an additional four to six years to get
a degree in what they're delivering.
643
:Salespeople can get that
without any education.
644
:Right.
645
:They just need a base education
to get their foot in the door.
646
:And then the developer that, you
know, often they have some degree of
647
:psychology or language or something
like that, but often their degree
648
:has no relationship to their job.
649
:Justin Norris: so I'm just, again,
immersing myself in like my own
650
:experience and perspective as a buyer.
651
:I like buying software.
652
:I really want to have an unmediated
experience with that software.
653
:So ideally, like, I want
to see what it looks like.
654
:I want to know what it does.
655
:I want to read your docs.
656
:I don't really need a salesperson
to gatekeep that for me.
657
:let's even assume they have that
passion and that emotion, and I can
658
:completely relate to what you're saying.
659
:How are they offering value to
me in this situation where I can
660
:get the information that I want?
661
:It's no longer about information.
662
:Where are they delivering value?
663
:Jacco van der Kooij: That
depends on what product you buy.
664
:For example, when you buy on Amazon.
665
:The primary thing you're buying
on Amazon for is how quickly can
666
:I get it and how much is the cost?
667
:you're not going to buy something on
Amazon that you need three weeks from now.
668
:You're buying on Amazon something that
you want to buy tomorrow or, sometimes
669
:even today is crazy enough, right?
670
:in that case, speed is the main
thing, speed and low costs.
671
:We call that a transactional sale.
672
:Now, when you're a solution sale, you
are primarily asking the buyer and you
673
:say to the buyer, here's the difference.
674
:I'm looking at you and these the
other vendors or two other vendors.
675
:Tell me how you're different.
676
:So now you need the buyer's
perspective on why they're different.
677
:You just want to hear from them what
the other two are doing right or wrong.
678
:we call that solution selling, when
you're buying a 20, 000, 30, 000
679
:solution, you want to learn, am I
buying the right solution for me today?
680
:I'm, and often you understand the problem
very well, but you want to learn what are
681
:different kinds of solutions out there.
682
:And then lastly, the provocative sales,
this is where I challenge you and make
683
:you think totally different about it.
684
:I go like, you know, thinking about
it the right way, you shouldn't be
685
:buying training for your people.
686
:You should buy a tool that replaces,
Your people, something like that.
687
:There's something totally different.
688
:A substitute rather than
a competitive solution.
689
:That is what the difference.
690
:So in each of these kind of sales, you
ask your buyer to do something different.
691
:What you generally want is you want to
make sure that your buyer matches you
692
:with where you have the biggest need.
693
:Whether that is if Amazon speed, whether
that's a consultative selling, educate
694
:me, or whether there's provocative selling
is help me think about this problem
695
:differently so I can go to my management
and often I feel already what was wrong.
696
:Now, mind you, this is a
very important statement.
697
:I cannot create a problem
that you're having.
698
:I cannot create it.
699
:I can only uncover it.
700
:You and I may both know that you have it,
but you don't know how to talk about it.
701
:Yet you have felt it all along.
702
:And while I'm asking you questions,
you start to uncover it or why,
703
:when I provoke you, it suddenly
starts to become plain and visible.
704
:But these are the things that
you're looking for in a salesperson.
705
:Help me get out of my rut.
706
:Help me think outside of the box.
707
:Justin Norris: When I think of the
great salespeople that I've worked
708
:with, something that they all had
in common was a certain likability.
709
:They were good at building relationships.
710
:They were good at playing the long game.
711
:And is that human to human connection?
712
:That's not something that it seems
feasible for AI to replace, do you think?
713
:Jacco van der Kooij: It does.
714
:So know, remember if I go back 20
years ago, that's how old I am.
715
:Right.
716
:And I wanted to pick an airplane seat
In an airplane, I would always want
717
:to talk to a travel agent because
they knew what the best seats were
718
:in a seven, four, seven, 400, right?
719
:Today, technology shows me exactly which
seat and I can instantly book that seat.
720
:I don't even have to get
book, boom, crack it.
721
:Right?
722
:Like, so today you would no longer
need a trusted resource in a travel
723
:agent to book you the right seat on an
airplane, given plenty enough money, you
724
:rather do it yourself because you can
see whether it's next to the bathroom
725
:and next to the exit door and whatnot.
726
:In this case, the
information that you get.
727
:Via, in this case, an app has balanced
the discrepancy between the knowledge
728
:that sits on the one side and the
knowledge that sits on the other
729
:side, trust the main reason why we
want trust is when there's a gap in
730
:that knowledge, your understanding
of something and the understanding
731
:of the person you have on the phone.
732
:Now I can ask you this, perhaps, I
believe that you look to me like the
733
:kind of person that gets to know a lot
more about the solution you're buying and
734
:the problem that you're having, then the
buyer often can, you look to me like a
735
:person who's hard to convince that when
I would sell you, you would go, Jack,
736
:I already read your book, check your
website, here's the three things I want to
737
:talk about, right?
738
:Justin Norris: Yeah, typically
739
:Jacco van der Kooij: And so what
I'm saying is, is my skillset
740
:as trust is diminishing and
it's getting lesser and lesser.
741
:today, if I go back 20 years ago, you
would only spend maybe five or 10 on
742
:buying a book online because you didn't
want to give your credit cards because
743
:you didn't trust the internet yet.
744
:Today we spent 50, 000, 70, 000 buying a
Tesla online because we trust the brand.
745
:We know that the brand will be
all right, but the human being in
746
:between is no longer as it once was.
747
:Justin Norris: I mean, Jack would tell me
you have built your, public image, your
748
:business around, training salespeople,
providing methodologies to salespeople,
749
:developing the practice of selling.
750
:And this vision in some ways
is, I don't want to use the word
751
:grim, but we're saying there's
going to be less salespeople.
752
:We're saying in a lot of
cases, they're going to be less
753
:important and less relevant.
754
:I want to make sure I'm
capturing your message, right?
755
:But how do, your stakeholders
who are sales leaders, how are
756
:they responding to this message?
757
:Well,
758
:Jacco van der Kooij: the true
professionals that they always were.
759
:We still need salespeople.
760
:We just don't need a million of them.
761
:sales is one of the largest jobs,
the most common jobs on the world.
762
:And I want you to bring out, do we
really need that many salespeople?
763
:and I challenge us that to say is
like, Hey, the reason why we have
764
:such bad quality, the reason why
people are not following processes
765
:and so on and so forth is because
we simply have too many salespeople.
766
:we don't need that many, the job of a
CRO, the job of a CEO in most countries,
767
:except France and China, those are two
exceptions, but except France and China,
768
:the job of a CEO is not to create jobs.
769
:It's not to protect jobs, it's not,
you know, like job retention, it is to
770
:get the customer the best experience
possible at the lowest cost possible
771
:to get them to deliver the impact.
772
:And based on that, I got to simply
say is AI will pay a disruptive role
773
:and that will most likely cause the
number of salespeople their jobs.
774
:And I don't think that the
lower end of that spectrum is a
775
:problem that we're losing, those
people will find different jobs.
776
:The same way that nowadays, we can harvest
with tractors rather than manual labor.
777
:Right.
778
:And we still use manual labor,
but in places where we need it.
779
:Like we don't have as many horses today.
780
:what can I say?
781
:It's a good thing.
782
:I like to think that the horses are
not the primary mode of transportation.
783
:Obviously there's something to say about
it from a, environmental perspective.
784
:But then I can tell you how bad
the horse manure and so on works as
785
:having grown up on a farm as well.
786
:So point being is it is quite okay.
787
:We've had too many people, and we have
used too much manual labor, that was ill
788
:performed by a number of people that we
can do better and that we will do better.
789
:Now, will this go fast?
790
:I like to think this will go bad and I
like to challenge you with the following.
791
:I like to believe that we human beings
can predict the future pretty well,
792
:but in many cases, our timing is off.
793
:And I like to think that today, everything
goes a lot faster than we think it does.
794
:And so my advice to your listeners
is try to think how your business
795
:looks like 10 years from now.
796
:And assume that's what it will look
like 18 months to 24 months from now.
797
:Prepare for that.
798
:You do that.
799
:You're going to be most
likely a better off than most.
800
:Justin Norris: it's almost unthinkable.
801
:I mean, with the release of a GPT 4.
802
:0 or whatever it is, the thing, the thing
that can like interpret the physical
803
:world and respond to the physical world.
804
:I mean, these are things that would
have been literally unthinkable.
805
:I mean, they were thinkable in
terms of science fiction, but not
806
:thinkable in terms of reality.
807
:Um, it's almost very difficult to even
envision a scale as like 10 years,
808
:at this moment, I find at least.
809
:Jacco van der Kooij: Yeah.
810
:For me, it is easy to predict how
a future will look like, right.
811
:Are easier to predict.
812
:And it's simple buyers dictate
the process they want to buy.
813
:Buyers love to buy.
814
:But hate being sold.
815
:the key thing that we all know,
every sales professional knows as the
816
:true sales process is not when you
close, it's not when you negotiate.
817
:Those are the last two steps, true
sales process is educating the
818
:buyer early on, learning from them
what they need and educating them
819
:on what is best for their needs.
820
:And I believe that that, as we
go forward, is a lot that we see.
821
:Human beings today, we all think about
how the AI process is changing the seller.
822
:I just want you to understand.
823
:The way how buyers buy are going
to change much faster using
824
:AI than our sellers use AI.
825
:And so buyers are going to learn
a lot more again and get RFPs,
826
:selection criteria, all that going
to be determined much quicker.
827
:And so.
828
:It will drive the process as always,
and that will make a few of us 10%,
829
:20 percent stand out from the crowd.
830
:And that few will always have a job
because they are passionate about
831
:what they do, working with customers,
and they have an expertise in what
832
:they're doing, helping a customer
solve the problem that they're having.
833
:And every customer needs to be provoked.
834
:AI is superseded by one thing
and one thing only process.
835
:But AI will make skills
arguably disposable.
836
:Justin Norris: Can you
unpack that statement that AI
837
:makes the skills disposable?
838
:Which, which skills?
839
:Jacco van der Kooij: Many
of you are on Instagram.
840
:Many of you yourself and others
may be on Instagram, right?
841
:Or on YouTube Shorts and
you see these short videos.
842
:I assume you are,
843
:Justin Norris: Familiar.
844
:YouTube.
845
:Yes.
846
:Instagram.
847
:No, but I'm familiar with the genre.
848
:Jacco van der Kooij: okay.
849
:Now let's say that I want to learn
how to take a great photograph
850
:in Venice or something like that.
851
:Right.
852
:And I'm using my iPhone.
853
:I assume you all have, you and
yourself and all the listeners have
854
:seen plenty of YouTube videos that
show you, oh, you throw a splash of
855
:water on the table in front of you,
you line up your camera exactly.
856
:And so you see the mirror
image, blah, blah, blah,
857
:something like that.
858
:Right.
859
:You see some, some great nifty
trick on how to create some
860
:photographs with whatever things
that your phone can do nowadays.
861
:Right.
862
:Justin Norris: Yep.
863
:Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
864
:And so you no longer need to go to a
four year education in, photography.
865
:You can just learn it
on Instagram right now.
866
:And so skills are becoming
867
:disposable.
868
:Justin Norris: Got it.
869
:Jacco van der Kooij: That
is happening everywhere.
870
:And for example, on sales calls combined
with call recording technique and
871
:analysis, disc analysis of the people who
are on the call, we already see through
872
:companies like, like, Crystal, formerly
known as Crystal Nose, we can already
873
:analyze what is the best way to approach
a person, what they want to talk about,
874
:combine it with the analysis on the
website, combine it with public statements
875
:and social media statements and whatnot.
876
:You can have a pretty accurate picture
of what's going on, combine that with,
877
:uh, layoffs and, glass door ratings,
combine that with funding strategy.
878
:When you combine all of it, the
picture becomes pretty obvious
879
:what's going on at the company.
880
:And in most cases, AI will do a lot
better job at that than one single.
881
:Now, the superstar will always
find what is truly meaningful.
882
:The remaining 90 percent will
significantly be layered up by AI
883
:and no longer is the skill of the
person seeking that information.
884
:Is as a big of a differentiator
because the eye will do a better.
885
:Great example is a company
called data book who does
886
:this fantastically right now.
887
:Right?
888
:Like it makes sure that executive sellers
are way more powered with this technique.
889
:Justin Norris: I want to take the focus
and shift it just a little bit after
890
:the commit, as you call it, or into the
post sales phase, just before we go.
891
:And you have this great expression,
you know, I'm going to mangle it now.
892
:Of course, recurring revenue as
a result of recurring impact.
893
:I think I got it.
894
:And that resonates very well.
895
:And I, I've seen through that,
you know, golden age of SAS, many
896
:companies growing like gangbusters.
897
:They were the next, golden child.
898
:and I've even gotten those products
and been like, Oh, this kind of sucks.
899
:Like this isn't gonna work longterm.
900
:And then of course, predictably
you see them, crash and burn.
901
:So this has not been a common concept.
902
:how will companies have to evolve?
903
:In terms of their value delivery
post sale in this new age
904
:of, a bit more of scarcity.
905
:Jacco van der Kooij: Yes.
906
:if, you know.
907
:I show you this growth chart of a
company, and let's say it says 50 million.
908
:And I show you that over 90 percent
of the revenue every month, every
909
:quarter comes from existing customers.
910
:That's where they got
to shift their focus to.
911
:What we see is essentially
we have a challenge on the
912
:first principles of growth.
913
:If I am a perpetual sales company, now
let me talk about first principles.
914
:A simple example, unfortunately,
I'm going to use American sports.
915
:Maybe you can, insert in a
Canadian sport in a similar nature.
916
:to the movie Moneyball.
917
:Baseball demonstrated that, the
old first principle was outdated.
918
:The movie Moneyball shows that and
it says like, Hey, when we started
919
:looking at metrics, we can identify
players who combined can become a very
920
:competitive team, Oakland A's and so on.
921
:And a few years later, the Boston
Red Sox won championships with the
922
:approach that was uncovered to the data
driven nature of an analyzing place.
923
:A few years ago, the Golden State
Warriors did something similar.
924
:They found that the Scoring capability
of the three point line was a
925
:disruptive means of changing the game.
926
:And today we see that
change still prevalent.
927
:However, the speed and passing
is now becoming way more
928
:prevalent in this year's 2024s.
929
:we see that the teams that pass a lot and
have a big center or superstar in this
930
:case, like, the Dallas, main player that
they are differentiator speed of the play.
931
:So first principles have been challenged
and changed the outcome of the game.
932
:We have it in Europe, the INEOS, uh,
bicycling team used marginal gain in
933
:order to create a disruptive event.
934
:And nowadays, it's the Jumbo Visma
team that, that modernized that.
935
:All these are, any point in time that
a first principle is being challenged,
936
:Elon Musk with the electric car.
937
:Once they challenge and you break through,
it becomes an immediate dominant factor.
938
:Immediate.
939
:Overnight.
940
:First principle challenge and the
first principle often behavior
941
:patterns and habits hold that change
of first principle, because all the
942
:way up to that point of view change,
people say, no, it won't work.
943
:We got to do it's the way
it's always been done.
944
:And then the first principle
is broken and kaboom.
945
:Suddenly it gives rise to a whole new.
946
:We're at that point of breaking down.
947
:We're at that point that the
old principle no longer works.
948
:What is the old principle?
949
:The old principle is growth comes
from acquiring growth, come from
950
:spending every dollar you have in
marketing on bringing on new customers.
951
:Growth comes from expanding.
952
:Growth comes from almost always more leads
lead to more deals lead to faster growth.
953
:in this world It's very
akin to me as a runner.
954
:This is the same way how in the old days
We thought that you could only run faster
955
:by doing more and more miles each day
each week Volume was the perceived as
956
:the dominant factor to become faster.
957
:Well, the four mile was broken by
a doctor who couldn't run as much.
958
:And so he invented a new way of
training, which nowadays we would
959
:know as the interval training.
960
:We have a little bit of leg training
for those of you who know running, but it
961
:was primarily interval training, right?
962
:Same thing down here.
963
:Our game of volume is over.
964
:We need to learn the new principle
of growth is not win more customers,
965
:but instead when the right customers
expand with the right customers.
966
:And therefore we don't need as many leads.
967
:We need to write the amount of leads.
968
:And then we need to write the customers
and we need to balance our spending
969
:on marketing, not just on winning
more customers, but helping our
970
:customers achieve the impact that
we promised them in the first place.
971
:And when we start applying a marketing
dollars and creating customer marketing
972
:programs that helps customers achieve
customer use cases, build small
973
:communities, small communities that
relate with each other, not one gigantic
974
:communities that we can sell more.
975
:No, a community.
976
:Of the Toronto based A group of users
that operate in construction or into
977
:legal or into Fintech, like a little
niche groups, develop those customers
978
:into little tight communities that
help each other achieve impact.
979
:Use your marketing dollars for that.
980
:The moment we move from doing
more better to doing better,
981
:better is the moment in time.
982
:That we no longer have to fear AI,
but where we can embrace AI and
983
:leverage it to help us achieve that.
984
:Justin Norris: I love that vision.
985
:And, Jaco, this was a ton of fun.
986
:I really appreciate you spending time
with me sharing some of your insights.
987
:check in again in 18 months
and see where we're at.
988
:See if your predictions have come
to pass, but yeah, thank you so
989
:much for being on the show today.
990
:Jacco van der Kooij: You're most welcome.
991
:I tell you 18 months from now, we're still
going to need salespeople and the best
992
:salespeople are still the best salespeople
they're still well employed and they're
993
:still fantastically compensated.
994
:It's, we ditched a whole bunch of,
riffraff that was not needed in
995
:sales I give you a last point for
all of us to leave on and smile.
996
:have you gone
997
:through college?
998
:Justin Norris: Yes, yeah.
999
:Jacco van der Kooij: what
:
00:52:02,583 --> 00:52:03,713
was it first year college?
:
00:52:03,713 --> 00:52:05,423
Like, tell me what it was really like.
:
00:52:05,423 --> 00:52:06,663
What was that first year of college?
:
00:52:06,683 --> 00:52:06,963
Really?
:
00:52:06,963 --> 00:52:07,283
Like,
:
00:52:08,513 --> 00:52:11,473
Justin Norris: Well, I was a
little bit different, probably than
:
00:52:11,473 --> 00:52:12,793
your, than your average student.
:
00:52:12,813 --> 00:52:14,223
I was probably much more of a loner.
:
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:14,750
Jacco van der Kooij: What
:
00:52:14,750 --> 00:52:15,270
is the average
:
00:52:15,310 --> 00:52:17,792
Justin Norris: the they're out partying
and they're having a good time.
:
00:52:18,032 --> 00:52:18,322
Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
:
00:52:18,322 --> 00:52:19,862
What second year of
college looked like for
:
00:52:19,862 --> 00:52:20,612
the average student
:
00:52:20,952 --> 00:52:24,262
Justin Norris: You're starting to buckle
down, take it a bit more seriously.
:
00:52:25,042 --> 00:52:25,592
Jacco van der Kooij: and the third
:
00:52:25,592 --> 00:52:25,902
year?
:
00:52:26,612 --> 00:52:28,642
Justin Norris: Maybe you're really
starting to grind at that point.
:
00:52:29,597 --> 00:52:29,767
Jacco van der Kooij: And
:
00:52:29,767 --> 00:52:30,497
the fourth year,
:
00:52:30,802 --> 00:52:32,912
Justin Norris: Well, and
the finish line's in sight.
:
00:52:32,952 --> 00:52:33,782
You gotta get it done.
:
00:52:34,897 --> 00:52:38,327
Jacco van der Kooij: I remember
in that fourth year, I had
:
00:52:38,407 --> 00:52:40,207
a bad teacher on a topic.
:
00:52:40,207 --> 00:52:41,137
I really loved.
:
00:52:42,857 --> 00:52:44,407
And I hated it.
:
00:52:44,737 --> 00:52:46,287
I wanted a better teacher.
:
00:52:46,796 --> 00:52:48,216
in year one, you could celebrate that.
:
00:52:48,216 --> 00:52:49,526
Like, dude, like, this
is going to be easy.
:
00:52:49,536 --> 00:52:51,226
In year four, you're so serious about it.
:
00:52:51,476 --> 00:52:51,786
Okay.
:
00:52:52,166 --> 00:52:53,126
I give you the following.
:
00:52:53,586 --> 00:52:58,976
Most salespeople enter sales and
have had no experience in that.
:
00:53:00,186 --> 00:53:04,236
So to them, the first four years
in sales actually mimic the
:
00:53:04,236 --> 00:53:05,476
first four years in college.
:
00:53:07,059 --> 00:53:09,679
The first year, dude, I'm loving this job.
:
00:53:09,709 --> 00:53:12,179
Look at the money I'm making,
your freedom I'm having.
:
00:53:12,179 --> 00:53:13,579
This is fantastic.
:
00:53:13,769 --> 00:53:14,029
Right?
:
00:53:14,329 --> 00:53:15,219
Second year.
:
00:53:15,729 --> 00:53:16,359
Oh crap.
:
00:53:16,359 --> 00:53:16,979
I got quota.
:
00:53:16,979 --> 00:53:17,689
I just missed it.
:
00:53:17,689 --> 00:53:20,059
If I miss it once again,
like, oh my God, I'm gone.
:
00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:20,659
Third year.
:
00:53:20,919 --> 00:53:21,329
Okay.
:
00:53:21,369 --> 00:53:22,239
This is my job.
:
00:53:22,269 --> 00:53:22,859
I want to do it.
:
00:53:22,859 --> 00:53:23,499
Fourth year.
:
00:53:23,639 --> 00:53:24,689
I'm studying it.
:
00:53:24,889 --> 00:53:26,309
I want to learn from the best of the best.
:
00:53:26,329 --> 00:53:29,539
Now think of these in years
and shorten these years up.
:
00:53:29,789 --> 00:53:33,169
Not as 12 month cycles, but
a six to nine month cycles.
:
00:53:33,839 --> 00:53:34,709
And understand.
:
00:53:35,094 --> 00:53:38,844
That we have a lot of people who
never left college working for sales,
:
00:53:39,074 --> 00:53:40,664
working in the sales road right now.
:
00:53:41,024 --> 00:53:43,064
And they're still living
that first year of college.
:
00:53:43,084 --> 00:53:43,834
They never left.
:
00:53:45,154 --> 00:53:48,634
Keep that in mind, folks, for those of you
listening, thank you for listening to me.
:
00:53:48,634 --> 00:53:50,904
I hope you can take a look at
my book, revenue architecture.
:
00:53:50,904 --> 00:53:52,134
You can find it on Amazon.
:
00:53:52,464 --> 00:53:53,964
I want to thank you all for listening.
:
00:53:53,984 --> 00:53:58,654
I know I'm a big talker, so, uh, giving
me the opportunity to share my insights
:
00:53:58,654 --> 00:54:00,254
with you has been absolutely delighted.
:
00:54:00,274 --> 00:54:02,214
May I ask you, you personally.
:
00:54:02,774 --> 00:54:04,224
Give me a one or two key takeaways.
:
00:54:04,234 --> 00:54:07,184
What did you pick up on today that
you thought was the note where
:
00:54:07,224 --> 00:54:09,964
you go like, Oh, that changed my
way of thinking about something.
:
00:54:10,334 --> 00:54:15,404
Justin Norris: It had to be AI and how
it's going to impact the sales profession.
:
00:54:15,427 --> 00:54:18,147
what are the roles it's going to take
over and what's going to be left?
:
00:54:18,347 --> 00:54:21,907
I also really, uh, selfishly as
a RevOps professional, appreciate
:
00:54:21,907 --> 00:54:24,377
your vision of the role that
RevOps can play in the process.
:
00:54:25,517 --> 00:54:25,707
Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.
:
00:54:25,727 --> 00:54:27,147
Well, with that said,
I want to thank you all
:
00:54:27,147 --> 00:54:27,687
for having me.
:
00:54:28,257 --> 00:54:28,627
Justin Norris: Brilliant.
:
00:54:28,677 --> 00:54:29,237
Thanks Jaco.
:
00:54:29,237 --> 00:54:32,057
And we will include links to your book
as well as to your website, where you
:
00:54:32,057 --> 00:54:35,207
really have a phenomenal number of
resources just available for free.
:
00:54:35,247 --> 00:54:36,307
Ungated, I might say.
:
00:54:36,791 --> 00:54:39,211
and we'll link all those
for our listeners there.
:
00:54:39,321 --> 00:54:39,961
Thanks a lot.
:
00:54:40,129 --> 00:54:40,759
Jacco van der Kooij:
Thank you for having me.
:
00:54:40,759 --> 00:54:41,089
Bye bye.