Episode 40

full
Published on:

8th Jul 2024

AI, RevOps, and the Future of Sales - Jacco van der Kooij

In this week's episode, we delve into the evolving landscape of sales with Jacco van der Kooij, founder of Winning by Design and a renowned expert in go-to-market strategies.

We begin by reflecting on the "Golden Age of SaaS," a period defined by rapid growth but also unsustainable business dynamics. As market conditions shift, we explore how revenue teams must adapt to thrive in the current environment.

AI is becoming an integral part of the sales industry. Jacco shares his insights on how AI will transform sales roles, automating many tasks that currently consume significant time and resources and shrinking the number of jobs.

Revenue Operations has a crucial role in this changing landscape, as the only function positioned to optimize the end-to-end buying process.

Join us for a thoughtful discussion on the past, present, and future of sales, and gain valuable insights from one of the industry's leading minds.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

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About Today's Guest

Jacco van der Kooij is an internationally renowned author, business leader, and thought leader on revenue growth and strategy. He is the founder of Winning By Design, a global B2B revenue consulting and training company, which consults for and trains GTM teams at companies such as Uber Eats, DocuSign, MURAL and OwnBackup.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaccovanderkooij/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:27] - The Golden Age of SaaS
  • [04:21] - The old style vs. the new style of buying
  • [08:34] - Adapting to the new reality
  • [16:19] - Sales rockstars vs. consistent process
  • [19:01] - The role of RevOps in establishing repeatability
  • [26:50] - How to get salespeople to follow process
  • [32:06] - AI vs. humans in sales
  • [46:14] - Increasing focus on delivering impact

Thanks to Our Sponsor

Big thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. 

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Transcript
Speaker:

Jacco van der Kooij: It

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:

Justin Norris: your career sometime after

:

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:

business is probably a little bit skewed.

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:

For about 10 years, we lived

in a world where SaaS companies

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:

aimed to grow at all costs.

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:

They were raising vast sums

of money and burning that cash

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:

almost as quickly, pouring it into

salespeople, advertising, technology.

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:

Et cetera.

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And the strategy basically was

let's grow quickly enough to

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reach that next funding round.

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It was a world with relatively little

accountability or scrutiny around many

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types of go to market expenses, and

certainly not one where profitability was

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the end goal, at least for most companies.

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So that world is gone

now, maybe gone for good.

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And many go to market professionals

are still struggling to

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understand exactly what it means.

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And how to adapt.

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So here to help us figure that out.

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We have Jaco van der Kooij.

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He is the founder of winning by design,

a B2B revenue consulting and training

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company focused on sustainable growth.

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He's one of the most influential go

to market thought leaders around and

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author of the book revenue architecture.

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Jacko, it's a pleasure

to have you on the show

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Jacco van der Kooij: an absolute

pleasure and a treat to be here.

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Thank you for having me.

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Justin Norris: I want to start off,

a little bit of a retrospective

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in preparing for this episode.

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I listened to a recent podcast

appearance you did on the revenue letter.

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Uh, and I'm going to bounce off

some of the ideas that you shared

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there, and then we'll go a little

bit deeper into the current state

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and what we should do going forward.

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But in that show, you referred to

what you called the golden age of

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SAS, from roughly 2012 to 2021.

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Talk us through a little bit, like what

was, that golden age and what were the

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conditions that existed during that time,

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Jacco van der Kooij:

Yeah, fantastic question.

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So late 2011, Mark, Andreessen

came out with a influential post.

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Uh, and it says why software

is going to eat the world.

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And in that post, you know, like he

outlined for what nowadays we know as the

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SaaS, uh, wave of companies that came.

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When he launched that post, we were

dealing with what we refer to as gen one

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SaaS companies, Salesforce and so forth.

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Since that day.

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We have launched 000 SAS companies

and all these companies during the

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timeframe from between 2012 and 2000,

you know, late:

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launched approximately on the same model.

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And that model is call up a person, tell

them you got a SaaS offering and then

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sell them that SaaS offering through a

form of pestering emails, phone calls

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and whatnot, social engagement and close

that deal shortly follow after that.

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That was the main way of doing that.

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The way we could afford that

is we used relatively low cost

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salespeople, aka sales development

reps, in order to make those calls.

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Over time, tools like Outreach

and Sales Loft and Groove, all

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that, came to perform that task.

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On the lower end, MixMax is another tool.

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And they provided that email automation.

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Combined with the SDR in order to create,

industrial, scaled pestering of, buyers.

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And you pick up the phone and primarily

you were trying to tell the buyer.

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why to buy?

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And that was because there was

a balanced difference between

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what the buyer knew about your

product and what you had to sell.

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The buyer often wasn't as aware of

the solutions out there, the problems

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that organizations were running into,

and that balanced, the difference

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in balance was essentially filled

in by SDRs, email campaigns, thought

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leaderships, events, and so on,

bringing that buyer up to speed.

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Those days no longer work that has

come to an end primarily in two forms

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number one The growth rate has come

down significantly about to half of

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what it used to be during 2019 and

the cost has gone up almost twice.

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So we got half the growth at twice

the cost And that is a problem

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that we're dealing with today.

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And as a result, many companies are

trying to figure out like what to do next.

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Now,

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Justin Norris: you know, as a software

buyer during that period, I can just,

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just from my own limited perspective,

Feel how things have changed because

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back in the day, you know, you wanted

to buy a new tool And you would you

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know open up requests for finance and

maybe make some business case around

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Yeah, you know if it closes one or

two more deals, you know, this tool

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is going to pay for itself And it was

generally a process of rubber stamping.

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We had money in the bank.

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It was great And there was very

little scrutiny around whether

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those tools actually, you know

Did what they were supposed to do

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whether like a lot of shelf where?

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Today, at least for me, it's an

extremely different process, a much

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more difficult process to buy software.

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Are you seeing this dynamic play

out where people are now purchasing

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in a completely different way?

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Jacco van der Kooij: what you

are experiencing is the old style

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versus the new style of buying.

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So if you go back 20 years, it becomes

real clear what you're buying on.

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You're buying on two things.

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Now, if I go back, let

me go back even further.

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I go back 50 years, 50 years ago,

when we're selling high tech, high

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tech is sold in millions of dollars.

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And that means that there are only few

P organizations who can afford that.

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Those organizations

therefore are qualified.

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Do you get the budget for this?

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And so IBM computers became

big and therefore they launched

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a process called band, right?

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Do you have the budget?

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Are you the authority and what's

the timeline that you needed?

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If we progress from there, let's

say that happened in the:

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if we progress to early 2000s,

many people are buying routers.

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And as routers come out, the technology

accelerates so fast that the new

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generation of routers outperforms

the previous generations of by a

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landslide in a matter of years.

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But in this case, routers are

written off over a seven year period.

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In order to overcome that, sellers now

have to offer what is called an ROI.

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Hey, I'm buying back your old routers.

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I'm selling you the new routers.

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And in the next three years, you're

going to make a huge amount of profit

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based on what these new routers can

do in this rapidly growing world

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that we today call the internet.

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We just have two specific methods, BANT

and the second method, uh, being ROI.

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So budget and ROIs.

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Now, if we go back to the early

:

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the past decade on budget and ROI.

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But the point is this, SaaS services

by definition have a 10x ROI.

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By definition.

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It's the way how the pricing was created.

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Scrapped a million dollars upfront.

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You're paying the million Dell.

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Yeah.

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Upfront you pay 5, 000 a year, right?

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Or 10, 000 a year or 20, 000 a year.

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So the ROI by definition is becoming.

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Positive 10 X every SAS service by the

very definition can say, folks, you

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close one deal on what we sell and you

pay the product pays back for itself.

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It pays for itself is one

of the most common pictures.

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Therefore, budget is always available.

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You know, like when you sell a company,

a 5 million software solution like

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SAP and, and Oracle in the early days,

folks, you got to have budget for that.

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And they've got to be allocated.

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But if I sell you a 10, 000

annual service, of course, there's

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some budget available somewhere.

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What you're experiencing as

simple as you say it, right?

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Is that budget and ROI

no longer are qualified.

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You no longer have access to that,

or they can no longer be used.

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What we today are experiencing is

that people are buying on priority.

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Is this important to me right now?

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Of course I have the budget.

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Of course.

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I know you have a 10 X ROI, but I

cannot afford every software SaaS

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product that can sell a 10 X ROI.

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So I can only have two or three and every

quarter I can only add one or two at most.

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So are you the one of all

the ones that offered.

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10 X ROI.

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Are you the one that I need right now?

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And the problem with

priority is it fluctuates.

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And most organizations have not

adjusted to selling to priority.

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They primarily are still

selling based on ROI and budget.

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And that's a mismatch.

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Justin Norris: And so as a team

experiencing that mismatch, where does

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somebody begin, the circumstances have

changed and we have teams chugging along

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in the same way that they have been.

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And all of a sudden, like the grounds

falling out from underneath them.

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maybe you've got people calling

you Jacko, like, what do I do?

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Things aren't working the way

they used to, like, what are you

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telling people about how to adapt

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Jacco van der Kooij: Yeah, I'm going to

give you a few basic principles to work.

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Uh, first of all, may I ask, do

you like being sold to, do you like

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somebody knocking on your door?

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Do you like being stopped in the street?

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Do you like receiving

endless amount of emails?

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Do you like being

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sold to today?

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Justin Norris: almost?

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Never know

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Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

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People hate being sold.

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Universal.

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Okay.

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There's a rare exception like my

brother, who all of us in the family go

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to when we buy a car, because he loves

to pester, sellers at the dealership.

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Right.

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You know, we all have one

of those in the family.

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Everybody else hate being sold to, right.

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We, we literally begrudgingly

with heavy heart go to a dealer

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in order to buy a car nowadays.

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We hate being sold to,

but let me ask you this.

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Do you sometimes love to go to an

Amazon or similar and go buy a product

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that you already know what you want?

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You just, you know, like

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you love to buy, don't you?

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Justin Norris: sometimes a bit too much.

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Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

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So human beings, number rule, number

one, hate being sold, but we love to buy.

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Number two, very important.

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Buyers define the process, not sellers.

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Buyers define how they want to be sold to.

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We cannot tell them how

they're going to buy from us.

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It won't work on a scale.

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Will it work occasionally with a customer?

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Absolutely.

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But nine out of 10 times if they have

an RFP process, you can use all the

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provocative and challenging techniques

in order to try to figure that out.

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But yes, one in 10 you win, but the

other nine you will lose because

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you're not adhering to the process.

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Buyers define the process, not sellers.

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And number three, when you are

selling to a customer, you have to

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give them a great buying experience.

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If the experience is not great and

experience can be fast turnaround,

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a detailed discovery call, fantastic

demo, whatever it is that they want.

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You got to give them a fantastic

experience, not on every call, but

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you got to have a pretty decent.

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Now, if it's a high velocity

sale, it needs to be like.

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Quick responsive time.

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If it's a detailed product and you got

to keep a simple demo, if it requires

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the entire team on their end to meet,

you need to run a fantastic stakeholder

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meeting, whatever it is you need to

match to their process with excellence.

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Those are the three things.

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If you do these three things right,

you're going to be successful

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in today's and modern sales.

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Most people , think that they

can tell the buyer how to buy.

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They focus on a sales experience

and they don't excel in several

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of the steps that they do.

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And they think that

the product is so good.

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It will simply overcome that.

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Well, we've got 36, 000 products that

are competing for budget right now.

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Justin Norris: So to drill a little

bit deeper into that in the context

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of a sales process, because it's a

strange contradiction, like you say,

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like people, they don't want to be

sold to, and you're absolutely right.

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And yet we have to engage in

this dance with salespeople to

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get our buying objective done.

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How can a sales team, you know, I'm a

VP of sales, I'm looking at my process,

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where would I start to try to make this

more delightful and more differentiated?

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Jacco van der Kooij: I love

that you use the term dance.

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And the reason I say that why I'm

triggered by dancing is as follows.

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With dancing, there are moves that

both partners know, but every time

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it is executed slightly different,

you may be in a different dance room,

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you may be in a different setting.

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The music may be different,

but yet you execute the dance

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in a way that is repeatable.

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There are certain moves that

is referred to as process.

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And this is what is the number one

thing that people oversee, particularly

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SAS, most SAS companies are startups

trying to become scale ups, right?

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And most of them, when they

become a startup, they done

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so by ignoring processes.

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Now, as they become successful,

they reach one, two, three,

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four, 5 million in revenue.

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And as they grow, they often grow

over a relatively short period of

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time, about 18 months to 24 months.

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They grow from a 10 to 20 person company

to 80 to a hundred person company.

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In that they're growing extremely fast

during a critical time at a time that

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they do not have processes in place.

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And so it becomes an 80 to

a hundred person company in

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a relatively chaotic way.

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Lack of processes.

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Now, these 80 people that joined a

company in that period of time, they

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look at it and they go like, you

don't have an onboarding process.

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You don't have this.

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And they bring their old processes

with them from the previous company.

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And this mishmash from all this like

diverse cultures of processes is all

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mismatched into a company at a hundred

person running at like 10, 50 million.

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And it is absolute chaos.

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We're running multiple

go to market machinery.

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We're wanting ABM campaigns.

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We having SDRs, we having like a

fantastic online purchase experience.

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It is all randomized and we

have not a focus on anything.

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And almost every company at 10 to

20 million runs like that, like

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nine out of 10 run like that.

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And that is not a successful way to go.

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One out of 10 does find its way.

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Now, if I tell you what is the primary

way that HubSpot became known for, what

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is the GTM motion that they made popular

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Justin Norris: Inbound marketing,

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Jacco van der Kooij: HubSpot and inbound

marketing, what they sell and how they

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sell it is a perfect match, right?

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Now, if I tell you, what is Slack

used for, what kind of motion did they

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use?

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Justin Norris: product led growth.

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Jacco van der Kooij: Product led growth.

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The product, what they

sell and how they sell it.

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Perfect match.

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what do you hear a lot of Tesla owners?

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How did they buy?

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Why are they always bragging

about how they bought?

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What is the great experience

that the Tesla buyer buys that,

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that they brag about?

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What you'll see a lot are buying online.

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They picking online, they check boxes

and then the Tesla gets delivered in a

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weird way, a self driving car and a self

buying experience itself or to a match.

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And so every time, if I, speak of

these, these things are a match.

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This is the way how you

achieve 10 to 20 million.

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You focus on one GTM and you make

it work in that go to market motion.

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In that one motion that you

have, you pick a handful of

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experiences that your customer on

that journey really appreciates.

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If you have an online experience, you

better have a really easy and conversion

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website, really fast response time.

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I don't want to click and have to wait

for a week for you to set up my instance

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on how I can use your software, right?

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I want to click.

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I want immediately log in.

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I want to download it right away,

whatever it is that you'd make

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me do, but I want instant PLG.

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Instant.

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If I have deep enterprise sales, I want

to make sure that my discovery call

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with you is detailed, that I have an

architect available to me, that I can

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have a detailed experience with that.

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Right.

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I want to make sure, does

it integrate with my system?

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Can I ask you about which, version

of Salesforce you integrate with and

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how you access my content and what

the security privileges are in a way?

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That matches the buying experience.

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So you have to make that a phenomenal

experience, but you don't need

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to focus on dozens of moments.

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All you need to do is a handful, because

if you make those moments, Excel stand

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above, it will pull all the other moments

that you engage with a customer up.

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Justin Norris: in dealing with sales

teams and supporting them, I've observed

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like this distribution where, generally

have a few, wizards who can pull rabbits

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out of hats and Who can figure it out,

like whatever the problem is, they'll,

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they'll just find a way, like that's just

in their DNA and they can make it work.

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and you have some people that can kind

of go through the motions and, and

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you know, there's a curve from there.

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To what extent, at that pivotal change,

that stage where a company is starting

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to scale that team, into the, 10

million to a hundred million range,

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should they be looking for like the

superstars, the rock stars, or should

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they be looking for people who can just.

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You will follow the process that

I've laid out in a, in a capable way.

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Jacco van der Kooij: In

the end, if you can hire 10

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superstars, hire 10 superstars.

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Superstars will generally

help you progress the fastest

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and so on and so forth.

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The problem is.

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Out of every 10 superstars you

hire, only one is a superstar.

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And the other nine are wannabe

superstars who think they're already

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superstars who want to be paid like

superstars, but they unfortunately

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don't perform like superstars, right?

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And that's why we call

superstars superstars.

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There's only, you know, a few of them.

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The other nine simply

have to execute process.

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Now, what a superstar really does well is

they can make a lemonade out of lemons.

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They can find what is the most

successful way of selling.

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Then with that, they in a

way establish a processes.

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They're cutting their way through

the forest, so to speak, right?

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With a machete, you're cutting through it.

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And as they come to the other

side, they have created the path.

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That path is a repeatable process

that needs to be executed.

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By the next ones who all think they're

superstars who are all starting

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to cut into the forest, but they

don't know where the other side is.

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So they end up at random spots

costing you lots of money.

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It's the wrong thing to do.

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They should just follow

what the superstar has done.

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Now, the superstar likes to keep

going on that route, circumvent

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any processes along the way.

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And at some point in time, you

want to pull that superstar out

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and go like, okay, Calm down.

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I still need you, but I need you to open

up a new market, a new region, sell a new

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product, open up a whole new thing for

a brand new product that we've created.

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That's where superstars excel at.

351

:

That should be replaced by

a repeatable sales force.

352

:

That marker where that occurs is

between 8 to 10 million dollars.

353

:

Superstars, on your first go to market

motion, you need them to take you

354

:

to 5, million dollars in revenue.

355

:

Then process needs to take over and by

about 15 million, your company needs to

356

:

be so ingrained in processes that you can

deploy your superstar on a new GTM motion,

357

:

a new market, a new product and whatnot.

358

:

Justin Norris: And you're talking

about process repeatability.

359

:

This is the language of revenue

operations and, uh, you know, large

360

:

percentage of the listeners of the

show kind of fit into that bucket.

361

:

Talk about the role that RevOps can play

in helping facilitate this transition.

362

:

Jacco van der Kooij: So there's

two kinds of roles that are very

363

:

similar that, that play, from two

different tacks, RevOps and FP& A.

364

:

Imagine the following.

365

:

I got three systems.

366

:

I got the lead generation system, the lead

development system, and the sales system.

367

:

And for the time being, I'm

only looking at the acquisition.

368

:

So I got the lead generation, lead

development, and sales system.

369

:

Now the lead generation

system, who's responsible?

370

:

Who's responsible in generally to generate

371

:

leads?

372

:

Justin Norris: Marketing,

373

:

Jacco van der Kooij: And who's

responsible for developing leads?

374

:

And

375

:

Justin Norris: SDRs.

376

:

Jacco van der Kooij: who's responsible for

377

:

closing the leads for closing

378

:

the opportunities.

379

:

Justin Norris: The sales team.

380

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

381

:

Now who's responsible for all those three

382

:

Justin Norris: Well, the chief revenue

officer, if you have one, who's,

383

:

uh, who's overseeing all three.

384

:

Jacco van der Kooij: and what I'm going

to describe is you go for the CRO.

385

:

I want you to think these three

processes, these three systems, lead

386

:

gen, lead development, and sales

are three different subsystems.

387

:

Each system, if it's process.

388

:

when you combine them, they

create a fourth system.

389

:

This fourth system is the system of the

three combined, aggregated all together.

390

:

It's a fourth system.

391

:

That fourth system has its own

attributes, has its own characteristics.

392

:

That fourth system says, If you

generate too many of the wrong leads,

393

:

I'm going to spend a huge amount of

resources on my sales, which is the

394

:

most expensive part of what I'm having.

395

:

And so now what I'm seeing is

I am abusing my salespeople

396

:

costing extensive amount of money.

397

:

This is the thought for you to consider.

398

:

What we see here is that that fourth

system with all of its own and unique

399

:

requirements, that's the RevOps.

400

:

Justin Norris: So looking across

the entire scope of the go to

401

:

market process and finding how are

these interacting with each other?

402

:

Where are we seeing inefficiencies?

403

:

Where are we seeing waste?

404

:

Is that what you mean?

405

:

Jacco van der Kooij: That's right.

406

:

And where we're seeing

waste is a phenomenal one.

407

:

but often at the connective points,

what leads are generated, which lead

408

:

developments are working and so on.

409

:

The entire process.

410

:

Now, if you think about it, client

acquisition cost covers all of that.

411

:

All of marketing and sales, CAC payback

discusses all of the acquisition.

412

:

These are typical things that

RevOps are very responsible for.

413

:

Now, a CRO goes beyond that.

414

:

The CRO in many cases should

also cover the revenue generated

415

:

from existing customers.

416

:

I want you to think about the following

417

:

in your world.

418

:

What does the CRO cover?

419

:

Marketing sales and customer

success or just marketing and

420

:

sales or just customer success?

421

:

What is the today's common CRO?

422

:

What do they cover?

423

:

Justin Norris: I can speak for my company.

424

:

They're really just focused on

sales and account management.

425

:

Success is separate.

426

:

Marketing is separate.

427

:

And I often see them, maybe covering sales

and success with marketing being separate.

428

:

Not always, but I often see

marketing splintered up.

429

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

430

:

follow my thinking down here.

431

:

I'm operating a business at 1

million ARR recurring revenue.

432

:

Let's say I have a million dollar

budget in marketing, right?

433

:

I'm spending it all on acquisition, right?

434

:

Win more deals at 1 million.

435

:

A hundred percent goes to win more deals.

436

:

I'm operating I'm operating a

business at 5 million in revenue.

437

:

I got 2 million in marketing budget.

438

:

Where does most of my marketing

budget get associated with?

439

:

Where do I spend almost all my

marketing on at 5 million in

440

:

AR?

441

:

Justin Norris: It's still acquisition.

442

:

I would say

443

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

444

:

At 10 million.

445

:

Justin Norris: usually still acquisition.

446

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

447

:

Now I want you to imagine this bar

of recurring revenues going up.

448

:

And this bar in the beginning, it's

all acquisition and the acquisition

449

:

piece is going to get nothing but

a tiny sliver sitting on top of the

450

:

retention at a hundred million dollars.

451

:

I'm running 95 million retention

at that point in time and

452

:

a tiny sliver of 5 million.

453

:

comes from acquisition expansion, right?

454

:

Everything else is renewal.

455

:

Where am I still spending the

lion's share of my marketing on?

456

:

Justin Norris: I would say

the majority of companies are

457

:

still focused on acquisition.

458

:

Jacco van der Kooij: And

I'm talking 95%, right?

459

:

It's not like, Oh, it's 60, 40.

460

:

No, I'm talking about for every

19 on acquisition, there's 1 on.

461

:

Why is that?

462

:

Because the chief revenue officer.

463

:

Continued its focus primarily

to see where growth comes from.

464

:

It's growth mindset is still that

of where we were 20 years ago and 20

465

:

years ago, where does growth come from?

466

:

Every quarter win more deals,

because if I don't win deals and

467

:

I don't have any new revenue.

468

:

So this growth mindset that most

growth comes from acquisition and a

469

:

disproportionate amount of spending.

470

:

Now you say marketing dollars, right?

471

:

Let's not forget that acquisition.

472

:

Also contains the lion's share of all

the salaries and compensation plans

473

:

in that tiny sliver, a huge amount of

spending also goes to sellers, that tiny

474

:

sliver that sits on top of that bar.

475

:

That is because the CRO, although

they carry the title of CRO in most

476

:

cases is nothing more, but a VP of

sales who promoted up to a CRO role,

477

:

what we need when that CRO is rev ups,

need to look over the entire thing.

478

:

And say it's like, Hey, not only

do I got the three systems lead

479

:

generation, lead development, and sales.

480

:

I also got onboarding.

481

:

I got retention.

482

:

I got expansion.

483

:

That is a total of six processes.

484

:

All of them combined in a total system

process called recurring revenue.

485

:

RevOps is responsible for all of it.

486

:

And it communicates with the

CRO in processes and data.

487

:

And that is how it explains to the CRO.

488

:

What works and what doesn't.

489

:

Now what's missing here is the

final piece is the financial

490

:

planning and accounting team.

491

:

And for me, the role of the future

is that RevOps needs to know a little

492

:

bit more about FP& A and FP& A needs

to know a little bit more at RevOps.

493

:

And the way to communicate to the CRO

is not through the enablement team.

494

:

It's not telling the team, Oh,

the enablement team, we need

495

:

to train the people better,

but it's to the finance team.

496

:

And it says, based on what we're seeing,

here's where our money can be spent most

497

:

efficiently with the most effectiveness.

498

:

That is the modern CRO.

499

:

The problem is that the CRO needs to

be capable of allocating budgets to

500

:

marketing and tell marketing, you need

to spend more on customer marketing.

501

:

They need to force marketing to do that.

502

:

And today the CRO cannot do that.

503

:

Like you said, because most of

the time the CMO is still out.

504

:

That makes the CEO, the per de facto

GTM, the person responsible for GTM.

505

:

It's the person who can allocate

the budget to the right thing.

506

:

Advised by RevOps and FP& A.

507

:

Now RevOps looks at conversion rates,

FP& A looks at salaries, right?

508

:

They're like, everything

else is the same thing.

509

:

You know, like they look at

the business the same way,

510

:

efficiency and effectiveness, but

one has more of a cost mindset.

511

:

The other one has more

of a growth mindset.

512

:

Justin Norris: that

makes total sense to me.

513

:

And let's say the CRO, is

persuaded by this financial data.

514

:

You still have the very difficult

challenge of getting these messy human

515

:

beings that we call salespeople or sales

development reps to follow a process.

516

:

And I don't need to tell you that there

are challenges inherent in doing that.

517

:

it's way easier to like program

a machine and, create automations

518

:

but getting salespeople to follow

that process is super hard and

519

:

open ended question.

520

:

do you solve that problem?

521

:

How do you think about that

problem and getting everybody

522

:

to row in the same direction?

523

:

Cause it's, it's as someone working in the

field, I can tell you it is exhausting.

524

:

I'm sure you know, the same.

525

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

526

:

Now, unfortunately, right at the same

point in time, artificial intelligence

527

:

joined to chat, so to speak, right?

528

:

so I want you to think of the

following, help me out here.

529

:

Tell me some of the things that when

you as a buyer that you most value.

530

:

Tell me what are the skills, the

traits that a salesperson has that

531

:

you most value that you really want to

speak to a sales organization about,

532

:

Justin Norris: they're

perceptive, thoughtful.

533

:

They're truly thinking about my

business and my needs and are

534

:

responding with, unique critical

thinking about my problems, highly

535

:

responsive, highly accountable.

536

:

Those are at least some of the key

things that come to mind for me.

537

:

Jacco van der Kooij: but

knowing the product should be

538

:

based knowledge, right?

539

:

Knowing their product.

540

:

Okay.

541

:

Knowing you, the base level should also

542

:

be based knowledge, right?

543

:

Justin Norris: agree.

544

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Following

up diligently should be.

545

:

Part of

546

:

course here, right?

547

:

Justin Norris: Yeah,

548

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Preparing

properly for the call should be

549

:

done right

550

:

Justin Norris: absolutely.

551

:

Jacco van der Kooij: now.

552

:

What you'll see is if I identify all

these as specific tasks, I say, you got

553

:

to know your product, you got to know

the customer, you got to prepare the

554

:

call to make sure that it's relevant for

them, you got to follow up diligently

555

:

and you got to have a great call.

556

:

If I call these five steps, then

I can tell you at least three of

557

:

them can be replaced better by AI.

558

:

Right?

559

:

Now, if I have 20 sellers.

560

:

And I can replace three out of the

five tasks with AI doing a better job.

561

:

That means I replace 60

percent of the, capacity.

562

:

Let's say that's all evenly skilled.

563

:

That means I suddenly

don't need any longer.

564

:

12 sellers.

565

:

60 percent of 20 is 12.

566

:

I only need eight sellers.

567

:

What I want to talk to you about

is that, today, I want you to think

568

:

about digging a hole with a shovel.

569

:

And today I need 20

people to dig that hole.

570

:

But then an excavator is invented

and the excavator can do a lot more.

571

:

Now I still need to

point where the hole is.

572

:

I still need to make sure that

I avoid the gas lines and the

573

:

water lines and dig around it.

574

:

But I don't need 20 pallet people

digging the hole any longer.

575

:

Now, the reason why I use this analogy

is what are human beings designed

576

:

to dig that hole in the first place?

577

:

I say that today.

578

:

We have 20 sellers, not because we

need them, but because it was the

579

:

only way we were able to fill the gap.

580

:

We have actually overhired

too many salespeople.

581

:

And now, for example, with the sales

development role, we say, Oh my gosh, we

582

:

need to fire so many sales development

because AI does a better job or does

583

:

a lower cost job, whatever it is.

584

:

What you find is, We were not supposed

to mass email people in the first place.

585

:

We're doing the wrong job and we're using

human resources to do that wrong job.

586

:

And now we're automating that with AI.

587

:

We're completely on a wrong

process, executing it.

588

:

In sales, this is in many cases, this

is the way we're calling on way too

589

:

many customers for the wrong reason,

just trying to pitch something.

590

:

So today we're using AI

mostly to do more better.

591

:

We want to do more and growth at

Elkos was all about doing more.

592

:

And now we're deploying

AI to do more better.

593

:

What we should deploy AI

on is do better, better.

594

:

We should have a better process.

595

:

We should target our customers better and

AI can do and help us very well with that.

596

:

So while we're still in

the age of do more better.

597

:

The successful companies will trend

towards do more better, target better,

598

:

have a better experience on the phone

when they're with the customer and so on.

599

:

And that unfortunately requires

fewer salespeople because we have

600

:

such a large amount of salespeople.

601

:

I can literally hear the fatigue in your

voice of having to work with salespeople

602

:

who don't want to adhere to process.

603

:

Well, folks, when you do that in

the engineering trade, you're no

604

:

longer going to be an engineer.

605

:

When you do that to software

coders, you're no longer

606

:

going to be a software coder.

607

:

If welders don't weld the way

they're supposed to weld, and

608

:

don't prepare and wear masks,

they're going to be out of a job!

609

:

They're going to be replaced

by robots that do a better job.

610

:

So to the case of AI, AI will be in the

same way, replacing human capacity in

611

:

sales and marketing roles, the same way

that robots have replaced, uh, welding in

612

:

manufacturing jobs, and it will be okay.

613

:

and we will be better off

as a trade because of it.

614

:

Justin Norris: So if I'm a salesperson

that wants to have one of those, few

615

:

chairs that are remaining you know, at

the end of the game of musical chairs,

616

:

they're removing some of the salespeople,

but we still need some of them.

617

:

What are the key skills that

only a human will continue to

618

:

be able to do in your opinion?

619

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Be

passionate about your customer.

620

:

The point is an AI system can do things

more higher frequency can do a 24 seven.

621

:

can do it at lower costs,

can do it at higher quality.

622

:

The only thing that AI doesn't have.

623

:

Is emotion and what

makes a human so strong?

624

:

Is it our emotional capability?

625

:

One of those signals as others is passion.

626

:

Passion is what keeps somebody up at night

when they wake up in the morning and say,

627

:

I now know what the customer's problem

was and how I can help them solve it.

628

:

That is passion.

629

:

If you have passion, passion,

and you develop expertise, then

630

:

you have nothing to be afraid of.

631

:

Your problem is not that you're

going to replace by a robot.

632

:

You're not, you're going to be replaced

by a passionate human being who uses AI.

633

:

That's what you're going to, because

they found that with AI, they

634

:

can diagnose the customer better.

635

:

They can write a better solution.

636

:

They can customize the proposals better.

637

:

you are being replaced by a human

who uses AI, not by a robot.

638

:

That's the thing that most people

are fearful of because they go like,

639

:

dude, this was such a fantastic,

easy money making gig that I had.

640

:

I had to do very little and I closed a

little and I made like, if you compare

641

:

that, salespeople often make once to

twice as much as people who had to study

642

:

an additional four to six years to get

a degree in what they're delivering.

643

:

Salespeople can get that

without any education.

644

:

Right.

645

:

They just need a base education

to get their foot in the door.

646

:

And then the developer that, you

know, often they have some degree of

647

:

psychology or language or something

like that, but often their degree

648

:

has no relationship to their job.

649

:

Justin Norris: so I'm just, again,

immersing myself in like my own

650

:

experience and perspective as a buyer.

651

:

I like buying software.

652

:

I really want to have an unmediated

experience with that software.

653

:

So ideally, like, I want

to see what it looks like.

654

:

I want to know what it does.

655

:

I want to read your docs.

656

:

I don't really need a salesperson

to gatekeep that for me.

657

:

let's even assume they have that

passion and that emotion, and I can

658

:

completely relate to what you're saying.

659

:

How are they offering value to

me in this situation where I can

660

:

get the information that I want?

661

:

It's no longer about information.

662

:

Where are they delivering value?

663

:

Jacco van der Kooij: That

depends on what product you buy.

664

:

For example, when you buy on Amazon.

665

:

The primary thing you're buying

on Amazon for is how quickly can

666

:

I get it and how much is the cost?

667

:

you're not going to buy something on

Amazon that you need three weeks from now.

668

:

You're buying on Amazon something that

you want to buy tomorrow or, sometimes

669

:

even today is crazy enough, right?

670

:

in that case, speed is the main

thing, speed and low costs.

671

:

We call that a transactional sale.

672

:

Now, when you're a solution sale, you

are primarily asking the buyer and you

673

:

say to the buyer, here's the difference.

674

:

I'm looking at you and these the

other vendors or two other vendors.

675

:

Tell me how you're different.

676

:

So now you need the buyer's

perspective on why they're different.

677

:

You just want to hear from them what

the other two are doing right or wrong.

678

:

we call that solution selling, when

you're buying a 20, 000, 30, 000

679

:

solution, you want to learn, am I

buying the right solution for me today?

680

:

I'm, and often you understand the problem

very well, but you want to learn what are

681

:

different kinds of solutions out there.

682

:

And then lastly, the provocative sales,

this is where I challenge you and make

683

:

you think totally different about it.

684

:

I go like, you know, thinking about

it the right way, you shouldn't be

685

:

buying training for your people.

686

:

You should buy a tool that replaces,

Your people, something like that.

687

:

There's something totally different.

688

:

A substitute rather than

a competitive solution.

689

:

That is what the difference.

690

:

So in each of these kind of sales, you

ask your buyer to do something different.

691

:

What you generally want is you want to

make sure that your buyer matches you

692

:

with where you have the biggest need.

693

:

Whether that is if Amazon speed, whether

that's a consultative selling, educate

694

:

me, or whether there's provocative selling

is help me think about this problem

695

:

differently so I can go to my management

and often I feel already what was wrong.

696

:

Now, mind you, this is a

very important statement.

697

:

I cannot create a problem

that you're having.

698

:

I cannot create it.

699

:

I can only uncover it.

700

:

You and I may both know that you have it,

but you don't know how to talk about it.

701

:

Yet you have felt it all along.

702

:

And while I'm asking you questions,

you start to uncover it or why,

703

:

when I provoke you, it suddenly

starts to become plain and visible.

704

:

But these are the things that

you're looking for in a salesperson.

705

:

Help me get out of my rut.

706

:

Help me think outside of the box.

707

:

Justin Norris: When I think of the

great salespeople that I've worked

708

:

with, something that they all had

in common was a certain likability.

709

:

They were good at building relationships.

710

:

They were good at playing the long game.

711

:

And is that human to human connection?

712

:

That's not something that it seems

feasible for AI to replace, do you think?

713

:

Jacco van der Kooij: It does.

714

:

So know, remember if I go back 20

years ago, that's how old I am.

715

:

Right.

716

:

And I wanted to pick an airplane seat

In an airplane, I would always want

717

:

to talk to a travel agent because

they knew what the best seats were

718

:

in a seven, four, seven, 400, right?

719

:

Today, technology shows me exactly which

seat and I can instantly book that seat.

720

:

I don't even have to get

book, boom, crack it.

721

:

Right?

722

:

Like, so today you would no longer

need a trusted resource in a travel

723

:

agent to book you the right seat on an

airplane, given plenty enough money, you

724

:

rather do it yourself because you can

see whether it's next to the bathroom

725

:

and next to the exit door and whatnot.

726

:

In this case, the

information that you get.

727

:

Via, in this case, an app has balanced

the discrepancy between the knowledge

728

:

that sits on the one side and the

knowledge that sits on the other

729

:

side, trust the main reason why we

want trust is when there's a gap in

730

:

that knowledge, your understanding

of something and the understanding

731

:

of the person you have on the phone.

732

:

Now I can ask you this, perhaps, I

believe that you look to me like the

733

:

kind of person that gets to know a lot

more about the solution you're buying and

734

:

the problem that you're having, then the

buyer often can, you look to me like a

735

:

person who's hard to convince that when

I would sell you, you would go, Jack,

736

:

I already read your book, check your

website, here's the three things I want to

737

:

talk about, right?

738

:

Justin Norris: Yeah, typically

739

:

Jacco van der Kooij: And so what

I'm saying is, is my skillset

740

:

as trust is diminishing and

it's getting lesser and lesser.

741

:

today, if I go back 20 years ago, you

would only spend maybe five or 10 on

742

:

buying a book online because you didn't

want to give your credit cards because

743

:

you didn't trust the internet yet.

744

:

Today we spent 50, 000, 70, 000 buying a

Tesla online because we trust the brand.

745

:

We know that the brand will be

all right, but the human being in

746

:

between is no longer as it once was.

747

:

Justin Norris: I mean, Jack would tell me

you have built your, public image, your

748

:

business around, training salespeople,

providing methodologies to salespeople,

749

:

developing the practice of selling.

750

:

And this vision in some ways

is, I don't want to use the word

751

:

grim, but we're saying there's

going to be less salespeople.

752

:

We're saying in a lot of

cases, they're going to be less

753

:

important and less relevant.

754

:

I want to make sure I'm

capturing your message, right?

755

:

But how do, your stakeholders

who are sales leaders, how are

756

:

they responding to this message?

757

:

Well,

758

:

Jacco van der Kooij: the true

professionals that they always were.

759

:

We still need salespeople.

760

:

We just don't need a million of them.

761

:

sales is one of the largest jobs,

the most common jobs on the world.

762

:

And I want you to bring out, do we

really need that many salespeople?

763

:

and I challenge us that to say is

like, Hey, the reason why we have

764

:

such bad quality, the reason why

people are not following processes

765

:

and so on and so forth is because

we simply have too many salespeople.

766

:

we don't need that many, the job of a

CRO, the job of a CEO in most countries,

767

:

except France and China, those are two

exceptions, but except France and China,

768

:

the job of a CEO is not to create jobs.

769

:

It's not to protect jobs, it's not,

you know, like job retention, it is to

770

:

get the customer the best experience

possible at the lowest cost possible

771

:

to get them to deliver the impact.

772

:

And based on that, I got to simply

say is AI will pay a disruptive role

773

:

and that will most likely cause the

number of salespeople their jobs.

774

:

And I don't think that the

lower end of that spectrum is a

775

:

problem that we're losing, those

people will find different jobs.

776

:

The same way that nowadays, we can harvest

with tractors rather than manual labor.

777

:

Right.

778

:

And we still use manual labor,

but in places where we need it.

779

:

Like we don't have as many horses today.

780

:

what can I say?

781

:

It's a good thing.

782

:

I like to think that the horses are

not the primary mode of transportation.

783

:

Obviously there's something to say about

it from a, environmental perspective.

784

:

But then I can tell you how bad

the horse manure and so on works as

785

:

having grown up on a farm as well.

786

:

So point being is it is quite okay.

787

:

We've had too many people, and we have

used too much manual labor, that was ill

788

:

performed by a number of people that we

can do better and that we will do better.

789

:

Now, will this go fast?

790

:

I like to think this will go bad and I

like to challenge you with the following.

791

:

I like to believe that we human beings

can predict the future pretty well,

792

:

but in many cases, our timing is off.

793

:

And I like to think that today, everything

goes a lot faster than we think it does.

794

:

And so my advice to your listeners

is try to think how your business

795

:

looks like 10 years from now.

796

:

And assume that's what it will look

like 18 months to 24 months from now.

797

:

Prepare for that.

798

:

You do that.

799

:

You're going to be most

likely a better off than most.

800

:

Justin Norris: it's almost unthinkable.

801

:

I mean, with the release of a GPT 4.

802

:

0 or whatever it is, the thing, the thing

that can like interpret the physical

803

:

world and respond to the physical world.

804

:

I mean, these are things that would

have been literally unthinkable.

805

:

I mean, they were thinkable in

terms of science fiction, but not

806

:

thinkable in terms of reality.

807

:

Um, it's almost very difficult to even

envision a scale as like 10 years,

808

:

at this moment, I find at least.

809

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Yeah.

810

:

For me, it is easy to predict how

a future will look like, right.

811

:

Are easier to predict.

812

:

And it's simple buyers dictate

the process they want to buy.

813

:

Buyers love to buy.

814

:

But hate being sold.

815

:

the key thing that we all know,

every sales professional knows as the

816

:

true sales process is not when you

close, it's not when you negotiate.

817

:

Those are the last two steps, true

sales process is educating the

818

:

buyer early on, learning from them

what they need and educating them

819

:

on what is best for their needs.

820

:

And I believe that that, as we

go forward, is a lot that we see.

821

:

Human beings today, we all think about

how the AI process is changing the seller.

822

:

I just want you to understand.

823

:

The way how buyers buy are going

to change much faster using

824

:

AI than our sellers use AI.

825

:

And so buyers are going to learn

a lot more again and get RFPs,

826

:

selection criteria, all that going

to be determined much quicker.

827

:

And so.

828

:

It will drive the process as always,

and that will make a few of us 10%,

829

:

20 percent stand out from the crowd.

830

:

And that few will always have a job

because they are passionate about

831

:

what they do, working with customers,

and they have an expertise in what

832

:

they're doing, helping a customer

solve the problem that they're having.

833

:

And every customer needs to be provoked.

834

:

AI is superseded by one thing

and one thing only process.

835

:

But AI will make skills

arguably disposable.

836

:

Justin Norris: Can you

unpack that statement that AI

837

:

makes the skills disposable?

838

:

Which, which skills?

839

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Many

of you are on Instagram.

840

:

Many of you yourself and others

may be on Instagram, right?

841

:

Or on YouTube Shorts and

you see these short videos.

842

:

I assume you are,

843

:

Justin Norris: Familiar.

844

:

YouTube.

845

:

Yes.

846

:

Instagram.

847

:

No, but I'm familiar with the genre.

848

:

Jacco van der Kooij: okay.

849

:

Now let's say that I want to learn

how to take a great photograph

850

:

in Venice or something like that.

851

:

Right.

852

:

And I'm using my iPhone.

853

:

I assume you all have, you and

yourself and all the listeners have

854

:

seen plenty of YouTube videos that

show you, oh, you throw a splash of

855

:

water on the table in front of you,

you line up your camera exactly.

856

:

And so you see the mirror

image, blah, blah, blah,

857

:

something like that.

858

:

Right.

859

:

You see some, some great nifty

trick on how to create some

860

:

photographs with whatever things

that your phone can do nowadays.

861

:

Right.

862

:

Justin Norris: Yep.

863

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

864

:

And so you no longer need to go to a

four year education in, photography.

865

:

You can just learn it

on Instagram right now.

866

:

And so skills are becoming

867

:

disposable.

868

:

Justin Norris: Got it.

869

:

Jacco van der Kooij: That

is happening everywhere.

870

:

And for example, on sales calls combined

with call recording technique and

871

:

analysis, disc analysis of the people who

are on the call, we already see through

872

:

companies like, like, Crystal, formerly

known as Crystal Nose, we can already

873

:

analyze what is the best way to approach

a person, what they want to talk about,

874

:

combine it with the analysis on the

website, combine it with public statements

875

:

and social media statements and whatnot.

876

:

You can have a pretty accurate picture

of what's going on, combine that with,

877

:

uh, layoffs and, glass door ratings,

combine that with funding strategy.

878

:

When you combine all of it, the

picture becomes pretty obvious

879

:

what's going on at the company.

880

:

And in most cases, AI will do a lot

better job at that than one single.

881

:

Now, the superstar will always

find what is truly meaningful.

882

:

The remaining 90 percent will

significantly be layered up by AI

883

:

and no longer is the skill of the

person seeking that information.

884

:

Is as a big of a differentiator

because the eye will do a better.

885

:

Great example is a company

called data book who does

886

:

this fantastically right now.

887

:

Right?

888

:

Like it makes sure that executive sellers

are way more powered with this technique.

889

:

Justin Norris: I want to take the focus

and shift it just a little bit after

890

:

the commit, as you call it, or into the

post sales phase, just before we go.

891

:

And you have this great expression,

you know, I'm going to mangle it now.

892

:

Of course, recurring revenue as

a result of recurring impact.

893

:

I think I got it.

894

:

And that resonates very well.

895

:

And I, I've seen through that,

you know, golden age of SAS, many

896

:

companies growing like gangbusters.

897

:

They were the next, golden child.

898

:

and I've even gotten those products

and been like, Oh, this kind of sucks.

899

:

Like this isn't gonna work longterm.

900

:

And then of course, predictably

you see them, crash and burn.

901

:

So this has not been a common concept.

902

:

how will companies have to evolve?

903

:

In terms of their value delivery

post sale in this new age

904

:

of, a bit more of scarcity.

905

:

Jacco van der Kooij: Yes.

906

:

if, you know.

907

:

I show you this growth chart of a

company, and let's say it says 50 million.

908

:

And I show you that over 90 percent

of the revenue every month, every

909

:

quarter comes from existing customers.

910

:

That's where they got

to shift their focus to.

911

:

What we see is essentially

we have a challenge on the

912

:

first principles of growth.

913

:

If I am a perpetual sales company, now

let me talk about first principles.

914

:

A simple example, unfortunately,

I'm going to use American sports.

915

:

Maybe you can, insert in a

Canadian sport in a similar nature.

916

:

to the movie Moneyball.

917

:

Baseball demonstrated that, the

old first principle was outdated.

918

:

The movie Moneyball shows that and

it says like, Hey, when we started

919

:

looking at metrics, we can identify

players who combined can become a very

920

:

competitive team, Oakland A's and so on.

921

:

And a few years later, the Boston

Red Sox won championships with the

922

:

approach that was uncovered to the data

driven nature of an analyzing place.

923

:

A few years ago, the Golden State

Warriors did something similar.

924

:

They found that the Scoring capability

of the three point line was a

925

:

disruptive means of changing the game.

926

:

And today we see that

change still prevalent.

927

:

However, the speed and passing

is now becoming way more

928

:

prevalent in this year's 2024s.

929

:

we see that the teams that pass a lot and

have a big center or superstar in this

930

:

case, like, the Dallas, main player that

they are differentiator speed of the play.

931

:

So first principles have been challenged

and changed the outcome of the game.

932

:

We have it in Europe, the INEOS, uh,

bicycling team used marginal gain in

933

:

order to create a disruptive event.

934

:

And nowadays, it's the Jumbo Visma

team that, that modernized that.

935

:

All these are, any point in time that

a first principle is being challenged,

936

:

Elon Musk with the electric car.

937

:

Once they challenge and you break through,

it becomes an immediate dominant factor.

938

:

Immediate.

939

:

Overnight.

940

:

First principle challenge and the

first principle often behavior

941

:

patterns and habits hold that change

of first principle, because all the

942

:

way up to that point of view change,

people say, no, it won't work.

943

:

We got to do it's the way

it's always been done.

944

:

And then the first principle

is broken and kaboom.

945

:

Suddenly it gives rise to a whole new.

946

:

We're at that point of breaking down.

947

:

We're at that point that the

old principle no longer works.

948

:

What is the old principle?

949

:

The old principle is growth comes

from acquiring growth, come from

950

:

spending every dollar you have in

marketing on bringing on new customers.

951

:

Growth comes from expanding.

952

:

Growth comes from almost always more leads

lead to more deals lead to faster growth.

953

:

in this world It's very

akin to me as a runner.

954

:

This is the same way how in the old days

We thought that you could only run faster

955

:

by doing more and more miles each day

each week Volume was the perceived as

956

:

the dominant factor to become faster.

957

:

Well, the four mile was broken by

a doctor who couldn't run as much.

958

:

And so he invented a new way of

training, which nowadays we would

959

:

know as the interval training.

960

:

We have a little bit of leg training

for those of you who know running, but it

961

:

was primarily interval training, right?

962

:

Same thing down here.

963

:

Our game of volume is over.

964

:

We need to learn the new principle

of growth is not win more customers,

965

:

but instead when the right customers

expand with the right customers.

966

:

And therefore we don't need as many leads.

967

:

We need to write the amount of leads.

968

:

And then we need to write the customers

and we need to balance our spending

969

:

on marketing, not just on winning

more customers, but helping our

970

:

customers achieve the impact that

we promised them in the first place.

971

:

And when we start applying a marketing

dollars and creating customer marketing

972

:

programs that helps customers achieve

customer use cases, build small

973

:

communities, small communities that

relate with each other, not one gigantic

974

:

communities that we can sell more.

975

:

No, a community.

976

:

Of the Toronto based A group of users

that operate in construction or into

977

:

legal or into Fintech, like a little

niche groups, develop those customers

978

:

into little tight communities that

help each other achieve impact.

979

:

Use your marketing dollars for that.

980

:

The moment we move from doing

more better to doing better,

981

:

better is the moment in time.

982

:

That we no longer have to fear AI,

but where we can embrace AI and

983

:

leverage it to help us achieve that.

984

:

Justin Norris: I love that vision.

985

:

And, Jaco, this was a ton of fun.

986

:

I really appreciate you spending time

with me sharing some of your insights.

987

:

check in again in 18 months

and see where we're at.

988

:

See if your predictions have come

to pass, but yeah, thank you so

989

:

much for being on the show today.

990

:

Jacco van der Kooij: You're most welcome.

991

:

I tell you 18 months from now, we're still

going to need salespeople and the best

992

:

salespeople are still the best salespeople

they're still well employed and they're

993

:

still fantastically compensated.

994

:

It's, we ditched a whole bunch of,

riffraff that was not needed in

995

:

sales I give you a last point for

all of us to leave on and smile.

996

:

have you gone

997

:

through college?

998

:

Justin Norris: Yes, yeah.

999

:

Jacco van der Kooij: what

:

00:52:02,583 --> 00:52:03,713

was it first year college?

:

00:52:03,713 --> 00:52:05,423

Like, tell me what it was really like.

:

00:52:05,423 --> 00:52:06,663

What was that first year of college?

:

00:52:06,683 --> 00:52:06,963

Really?

:

00:52:06,963 --> 00:52:07,283

Like,

:

00:52:08,513 --> 00:52:11,473

Justin Norris: Well, I was a

little bit different, probably than

:

00:52:11,473 --> 00:52:12,793

your, than your average student.

:

00:52:12,813 --> 00:52:14,223

I was probably much more of a loner.

:

00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:14,750

Jacco van der Kooij: What

:

00:52:14,750 --> 00:52:15,270

is the average

:

00:52:15,310 --> 00:52:17,792

Justin Norris: the they're out partying

and they're having a good time.

:

00:52:18,032 --> 00:52:18,322

Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

:

00:52:18,322 --> 00:52:19,862

What second year of

college looked like for

:

00:52:19,862 --> 00:52:20,612

the average student

:

00:52:20,952 --> 00:52:24,262

Justin Norris: You're starting to buckle

down, take it a bit more seriously.

:

00:52:25,042 --> 00:52:25,592

Jacco van der Kooij: and the third

:

00:52:25,592 --> 00:52:25,902

year?

:

00:52:26,612 --> 00:52:28,642

Justin Norris: Maybe you're really

starting to grind at that point.

:

00:52:29,597 --> 00:52:29,767

Jacco van der Kooij: And

:

00:52:29,767 --> 00:52:30,497

the fourth year,

:

00:52:30,802 --> 00:52:32,912

Justin Norris: Well, and

the finish line's in sight.

:

00:52:32,952 --> 00:52:33,782

You gotta get it done.

:

00:52:34,897 --> 00:52:38,327

Jacco van der Kooij: I remember

in that fourth year, I had

:

00:52:38,407 --> 00:52:40,207

a bad teacher on a topic.

:

00:52:40,207 --> 00:52:41,137

I really loved.

:

00:52:42,857 --> 00:52:44,407

And I hated it.

:

00:52:44,737 --> 00:52:46,287

I wanted a better teacher.

:

00:52:46,796 --> 00:52:48,216

in year one, you could celebrate that.

:

00:52:48,216 --> 00:52:49,526

Like, dude, like, this

is going to be easy.

:

00:52:49,536 --> 00:52:51,226

In year four, you're so serious about it.

:

00:52:51,476 --> 00:52:51,786

Okay.

:

00:52:52,166 --> 00:52:53,126

I give you the following.

:

00:52:53,586 --> 00:52:58,976

Most salespeople enter sales and

have had no experience in that.

:

00:53:00,186 --> 00:53:04,236

So to them, the first four years

in sales actually mimic the

:

00:53:04,236 --> 00:53:05,476

first four years in college.

:

00:53:07,059 --> 00:53:09,679

The first year, dude, I'm loving this job.

:

00:53:09,709 --> 00:53:12,179

Look at the money I'm making,

your freedom I'm having.

:

00:53:12,179 --> 00:53:13,579

This is fantastic.

:

00:53:13,769 --> 00:53:14,029

Right?

:

00:53:14,329 --> 00:53:15,219

Second year.

:

00:53:15,729 --> 00:53:16,359

Oh crap.

:

00:53:16,359 --> 00:53:16,979

I got quota.

:

00:53:16,979 --> 00:53:17,689

I just missed it.

:

00:53:17,689 --> 00:53:20,059

If I miss it once again,

like, oh my God, I'm gone.

:

00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:20,659

Third year.

:

00:53:20,919 --> 00:53:21,329

Okay.

:

00:53:21,369 --> 00:53:22,239

This is my job.

:

00:53:22,269 --> 00:53:22,859

I want to do it.

:

00:53:22,859 --> 00:53:23,499

Fourth year.

:

00:53:23,639 --> 00:53:24,689

I'm studying it.

:

00:53:24,889 --> 00:53:26,309

I want to learn from the best of the best.

:

00:53:26,329 --> 00:53:29,539

Now think of these in years

and shorten these years up.

:

00:53:29,789 --> 00:53:33,169

Not as 12 month cycles, but

a six to nine month cycles.

:

00:53:33,839 --> 00:53:34,709

And understand.

:

00:53:35,094 --> 00:53:38,844

That we have a lot of people who

never left college working for sales,

:

00:53:39,074 --> 00:53:40,664

working in the sales road right now.

:

00:53:41,024 --> 00:53:43,064

And they're still living

that first year of college.

:

00:53:43,084 --> 00:53:43,834

They never left.

:

00:53:45,154 --> 00:53:48,634

Keep that in mind, folks, for those of you

listening, thank you for listening to me.

:

00:53:48,634 --> 00:53:50,904

I hope you can take a look at

my book, revenue architecture.

:

00:53:50,904 --> 00:53:52,134

You can find it on Amazon.

:

00:53:52,464 --> 00:53:53,964

I want to thank you all for listening.

:

00:53:53,984 --> 00:53:58,654

I know I'm a big talker, so, uh, giving

me the opportunity to share my insights

:

00:53:58,654 --> 00:54:00,254

with you has been absolutely delighted.

:

00:54:00,274 --> 00:54:02,214

May I ask you, you personally.

:

00:54:02,774 --> 00:54:04,224

Give me a one or two key takeaways.

:

00:54:04,234 --> 00:54:07,184

What did you pick up on today that

you thought was the note where

:

00:54:07,224 --> 00:54:09,964

you go like, Oh, that changed my

way of thinking about something.

:

00:54:10,334 --> 00:54:15,404

Justin Norris: It had to be AI and how

it's going to impact the sales profession.

:

00:54:15,427 --> 00:54:18,147

what are the roles it's going to take

over and what's going to be left?

:

00:54:18,347 --> 00:54:21,907

I also really, uh, selfishly as

a RevOps professional, appreciate

:

00:54:21,907 --> 00:54:24,377

your vision of the role that

RevOps can play in the process.

:

00:54:25,517 --> 00:54:25,707

Jacco van der Kooij: Okay.

:

00:54:25,727 --> 00:54:27,147

Well, with that said,

I want to thank you all

:

00:54:27,147 --> 00:54:27,687

for having me.

:

00:54:28,257 --> 00:54:28,627

Justin Norris: Brilliant.

:

00:54:28,677 --> 00:54:29,237

Thanks Jaco.

:

00:54:29,237 --> 00:54:32,057

And we will include links to your book

as well as to your website, where you

:

00:54:32,057 --> 00:54:35,207

really have a phenomenal number of

resources just available for free.

:

00:54:35,247 --> 00:54:36,307

Ungated, I might say.

:

00:54:36,791 --> 00:54:39,211

and we'll link all those

for our listeners there.

:

00:54:39,321 --> 00:54:39,961

Thanks a lot.

:

00:54:40,129 --> 00:54:40,759

Jacco van der Kooij:

Thank you for having me.

:

00:54:40,759 --> 00:54:41,089

Bye bye.

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About the Podcast

RevOps FM
Thinking out loud about RevOps and go-to-market strategy.
This podcast is your weekly masterclass on becoming a better revenue operator. We challenge conventional wisdom and dig into what actually works for building predictable revenue at scale.

For show notes and extra resources, visit https://revops.fm/show

Key topics include: marketing technology, sales technology, marketing operations, sales operations, process optimization, team structure, planning, reporting, forecasting, workflow automation, and GTM strategy.

About your host

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Justin Norris

Justin has over 15 years as a marketing, operations, and GTM professional.

He's worked almost exclusively at startups, including a successful exit. As an operations consultant, he's been a trusted partner to numerous SaaS "unicorns" and Fortune 500s.