The Evolution of B2B Content Marketing - Ashley Faus
Content has been the lifeblood of how B2B companies go to market for at least 20 years, since Hubspot pioneered the concept of Inbound Marketing.
We make content, we drip it out, we nurture people with it, we align it with our funnels, and we have a conviction that it makes people buy things—although that's also quite difficult to prove.
The content game is not going anywhere, but it IS changing. And to guide us through those changes, we're chatting today with B2B content expert Ashley Faus, Head of Lifecycle Marketing at Atlassian.
Ashley challenges traditional content mapping to the B2B funnel and introduces the idea of a "content playground" where people engage with content in a way that suits them best in a non-linear, non-standard journey.
She also delves into the different intents behind content (buy, use, help, trust), the different levels of content (conceptual, strategic, tactical), the nuances between individual and brand-led content, and the growing role of B2B creators.
Thanks to Our Sponsor
Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.
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You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.
What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.
About Today's Guest
Ashley Faus is a marketer, writer, speaker by day, and a singer, actor, fitness fiend by night.
She's a leading content marketing expert who loves telling the high-level stories that resonate with an audience and connecting the dots between types of assets and distribution channels. For the past seven years, she's been the Head of Lifecycle Marketing, Portfolio, at Atlassian.
Her writing has been published on TIME, Forbes, MarketingProfs, and The Muse, and she's spoken on various marketing topics for INBOUND, Harvard Business Review, and MarketingProfs.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyfaus/
Key Topics
- [00:00] - Introduction
- [01:17] - A brief history of content marketing
- [04:41] - Over-indexing on attribution
- [08:55] - Different types of content intent
- [15:42] - Individual vs. brand-led content
- [19:12] - B2B creators
- [29:24] - The content playground
- [45:52] - Email as a consumption channel
- [49:02] - Treating people as a whole human
- [51:47] - Content formats
- [54:54] - AI
Resource Links
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Transcript
Welcome to RevOps FM, you know, for at least 20 years since
2
:HubSpot pioneered this concept of inbound
marketing content has been the lifeblood
3
:of how B2B companies go to market.
4
:We make it, we drip it out, we
nurture people with it, we align
5
:it with our funnels and We have a
sort of general conviction that it
6
:makes people buy things, although
that's also difficult to prove.
7
:And the content game is not going
anywhere, I think, but it is changing.
8
:You know, the landscape gets saturated,
old playbooks stop working well,
9
:and it's also easier now than ever
before for anyone to be a content
10
:creator with the rise of AI and
the availability of new tools.
11
:So today I really want to look
at where we've been and where
12
:we're going with B2B content.
13
:And to help guide us through
that, we have Ashley Faust.
14
:She's a top expert and thought
leader on content marketing.
15
:And for nearly seven years she's been
at Atlassian where she's currently
16
:The head of life cycle marketing.
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:Ashley, thank you so much
for coming on the show.
18
:Ashley Faus: Yeah.
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:Thanks for having me.
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:This is going to be a fun one.
21
:Justin Norris: So maybe let's start
with that kind of big picture, landscape
22
:question, and maybe if you want to just
zoom out, give us this macro view of like
23
:how you view the evolution of content
marketing over the past 15 or 20 years,
24
:Ashley Faus: sure.
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:So I was coming up as
kind of a newbie marketer.
26
:I have a generalist background.
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:And so I was just coming up when
Marketo was starting to get big.
28
:when HubSpot had put out the
inbound manifesto and content
29
:marketing kind of became a thing.
30
:And this concept that, You could
actually collect people's email
31
:addresses and then email them regularly
and then see the journey of all
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:the content that they consumed, the
places they went on your website,
33
:connecting all of that with email.
34
:I just remember my first time opening
up the Marketo dashboard and being
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:like, Is it, weird that I want
to just like nerd out and look at
36
:what all these people are doing?
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:so now fast forward, a decade,
and I'm like, why are we still
38
:collecting people's email addresses?
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:this is stupid.
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:Why are we gaining content at all?
41
:I frequently rant about, behavioral
MQLs in large part because people
42
:are still using that playbook from 10
years ago where they're like, Oh, they
43
:read, they downloaded five eBooks.
44
:We progressively profiled them and,
they're spending more and more time on
45
:the website, so they must be ready to buy.
46
:And I'm just like, have they
told you they're ready to buy?
47
:No, the reason they're not buying
is because they don't want to buy.
48
:I understand that there are a lot of
teams and, several of my colleagues
49
:who have actually had great success
with both behavioral MQLs and
50
:what we would call hand raisers.
51
:Right.
52
:I ran that playbook years ago in my
career, but I think that as we've evolved
53
:and the barriers have been To creating,
sharing, content to building an audience
54
:as those barriers have gotten lower.
55
:That means that the noise has gotten
a lot higher and the expectations
56
:have gotten a lot higher.
57
:And so I think that we are going
to continue to see this decrease
58
:in kind of that traditional.
59
:put an asset behind a form, progressively
profile people, email them, a generic
60
:automated sequence, and really starting
to see that shift into a lot more
61
:personalization, being much more
focused on people who are raising
62
:their hands and making that educational
content more available to them without
63
:assuming that someone looking for
education means that they are also.
64
:Ready and able
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:Justin Norris: you know, I, came
up through the B2B marketing
66
:world at around the same time
as that era that you described.
67
:And.
68
:I remember it as almost like a
golden age of marketing content.
69
:You had HubSpot doing really innovative
things like, a Guinness records, breaking
70
:a webinar with like the most people,
like it was thousands of people on it.
71
:I remember attending that webinar
where you mentioned Marketo and
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:John Miller wrote his definitive
guides, which were really.
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:You know meaty and valuable and I almost
wonder if if those companies Not became
74
:victims of their own success But content
marketing became victims of their success
75
:and that everyone started to replicate
it, but without the same thoughtfulness
76
:where just anyone could spin up a whole
bunch of seo blog posts that became
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:increasingly thin and lacking value Do
you see it happening that way as well?
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:Ashley Faus: And I think the other
big driver is that the, feeling that
79
:you could now measure and attribute
every single thing meant that every
80
:single thing should be measured.
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:And attributed and that swing, I
think it was, the famous quote.
82
:That's like, I waste 50 percent
of my advertising budget.
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:I just don't know which 50 percent we
almost swung the opposite way where
84
:it was like, we can and should measure
every single thing and every single thing
85
:should be exactly attributed to pipeline.
86
:And so it swung this way.
87
:And I actually think it's coming back now
with, you know, multi touch attribution
88
:and a bigger conversation about.
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:The attribution, where it's not
how much pipeline did this specific
90
:asset contribute and more of in
the deals that are closed one, what
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:content was consumed on that journey?
92
:Those are 2 different
questions, and if you look at.
93
:the capabilities of that software when
they were coming up, it really was more
94
:focused on how much did this asset drive
and you could measure it at the asset
95
:level, but only on your own properties.
96
:And so we just swung into this
idea that, okay, I'm going to
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:put all the content on my site.
98
:I'm going to put it all behind a form.
99
:All of my social media posts are
going to drive to a landing page.
100
:To force people to fill out this
form so that I can measure it.
101
:And now we're only going to measure
social media by referral traffic
102
:and click throughs to the website.
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:We're only going to measure
website success by form bills.
104
:content downloads, or in the case
of sass and product led growth,
105
:free signups, you know, how many
people signed up from that page.
106
:And I think that mindset is actually
the victim of success is almost
107
:if we can measure all of these
things, we can only do this type of
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:marketing so that we can measure it.
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:And so it's still really hard to
measure brand perception, sentiment
110
:influence on revenue Even though we
know instinctively that brand matters.
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:And so there's some
really interesting things.
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:I think it's also the current
discussion around demand generation
113
:versus demand capture, right?
114
:That semantics discussion is trying
to get at the mindset of, are you
115
:talking to people who are in market
and are willing and able to buy.
116
:Within the next quarter, or are you
trying to build that affinity so that
117
:when somebody does come into the market
and they are willing and able to buy,
118
:they come to you first and then people
are like, true demand generation, isn't
119
:that just brand and demand capture?
120
:That's what we really mean by demand.
121
:And then people.
122
:Also come back with like, well,
technically lead gen, that's
123
:what content marketing should
be doing because, you know, once
124
:you hit that MQL, that's a lead.
125
:So we actually need to be talking about
demand gen, demand capture and lead gen.
126
:And I'm like, guys, this is the same
conversation we were having a decade ago.
127
:About lead scoring, what counts as an
MQL, what touch points matter most.
128
:Well, only the touch points
we can easily measure.
129
:Right?
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:So it's, kind of funny.
131
:Cause I feel like the conversation
takes on a slightly different.
132
:angle, but each generation
of marketer ends up, it's
133
:like you become your parents.
134
:You know, you become the marketing
leader that you were like ranting
135
:against when you were a newbie marketer.
136
:And now you are that marketer
because you're talking to
137
:higher levels of leadership.
138
:So it's kind of a funny full
139
:circle moment.
140
:Justin Norris: It's these glorious
semantics debates that we love to
141
:have, for some reason, but you touched
on so many important things there.
142
:So maybe just the thread I'll, choose
first to pull on is the one around
143
:measurability and, what it says about,
I guess what content is for, because
144
:if we expect that we're going to
measure everything and then be able to
145
:attribute content directly to pipeline,
that says something that it's almost.
146
:we're treating content almost as
like a direct response channel.
147
:We're expecting it to perform in this way.
148
:how do you think of it?
149
:Like if someone said to you, what is,
what is content even for in marketing?
150
:Why do we produce it?
151
:What would your answer
to that question be?
152
:Ashley Faus: I would say that there
are actually different intents and
153
:this is around the audience intent
and the next action they'll take.
154
:So to your point about using content
as a direct response channel,
155
:That content is by intent content.
156
:This is someone who is looking
to solve a problem by purchasing
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:a product or a solution.
158
:That is by intent content.
159
:In that case, the next action we want
that person to take after consuming
160
:the content is to contact sales, to
book a demo, to sign up for a free
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:account, to sign up for a free trial.
162
:Like, it's a by intent action.
163
:That's only one of the intents.
164
:There's also trust intent
or affinity intent.
165
:And so this is what frequently
people talk about when they talk
166
:about thought leadership content,
or they talk about, brand content.
167
:Frequently what they're talking
about is trust or affinity.
168
:And the next action is for the
person to feel good about the brand.
169
:To change their perception
about the brand.
170
:There's not actually a direct
next action that we can measure.
171
:It really is more about
sentiment, perception, feelings.
172
:Potentially they share the article on
social media or they send it to their
173
:peers and say, Hey, this was a super
thought provoking article or like, man.
174
:This company is smart.
175
:Like they know things.
176
:They know me or they know the industry.
177
:That's that.
178
:There's also, what I
call use intent content.
179
:So this is the next action is go
into the product or if you're using
180
:a service, you know, contact your
account manager or, contact the person
181
:you're working with to actually use.
182
:the thing.
183
:So if the next action is log into the
product, so use case content, templates,
184
:jobs to be done, that is a different
type of content and particularly
185
:for products like growth companies.
186
:that use intent content is really
important, particularly during the
187
:onboarding and activation phases.
188
:It's also really important from a
retention and expansion set of kind
189
:of phases of the life cycle, because
if someone's not getting value from
190
:the product, they're not going to
invite their colleagues into the
191
:product and they're not going to renew.
192
:, so we've talked about buy
intent, use intent, trust intent.
193
:There's also help intent or
remediation intent content.
194
:So somebody has a problem.
195
:I can't log in.
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:I'm trying to reach someone.
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:I don't understand how this works.
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:Can you help me?
199
:Um, Usually that person is
going to be a customer already.
200
:but again, particularly when you
see so many companies are putting
201
:their documentation online,
it gets really fuzzy, right?
202
:Because you want to see how
hard is it to troubleshoot this.
203
:particularly if you're an engineer, for
example, and you're doing API integrations
204
:or you're building on top of another
company's API that help content of
205
:like, how do I actually fix this and
troubleshoot this or what are common
206
:issues can be something that influences
whether or not you buy that product.
207
:it's not intended to be for
purchasing, but it might
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:actually influence the purchase.
209
:and then the final content, which I
think is quite the most misunderstood
210
:is this idea of learn intent content.
211
:Everybody thinks that educational
content is the best content.
212
:That's we're going to teach you something.
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:And it's like, okay, what
are you teaching them?
214
:We're going to teach them
why our product is the best.
215
:Okay.
216
:So that's by intent content.
217
:No, no, we're teaching.
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:I'm like, you're teaching them
why they should buy the product.
219
:That's by intent content.
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:Right.
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:Or like, Oh, we're gonna educate
them about how to use the product.
222
:And I'm like, You literally just
said it, it's use intent content.
223
:So true learn intent content,
again, it could be practices.
224
:The next action might
just be to think about it.
225
:It might be to incorporate
something into your own workflows.
226
:Might be to share the article with, peers
or social media, but it's, it's not taking
227
:a direct action that benefits the company.
228
:So when you ask me, what is content for?
229
:My answer is, well, what is the next
action that the audience is going to take?
230
:And that's how we think about matching
the intent of a piece of content
231
:with the action and the usefulness
of that content to the audience.
232
:It's not just asymmetrically, well,
all content should generate revenue.
233
:Okay.
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:Well, there's actually a lot of
different ways to exchange value
235
:with our audience through content.
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:Justin Norris: And do you see those
different, categories and dynamics as
237
:sort of evergreen over the past, you
know, 20 years and, the external forms
238
:and the mediums and, the distribution
channels, those may evolve, but
239
:really these things are evergreen.
240
:Or do you feel that.
241
:A content game itself is changing
in some fundamental ways where
242
:there's like a rupture with how
content has been used in the past.
243
:Ashley Faus: I think that the trust
intent or affinity in intent content,
244
:I do think that that has changed
significantly over the last decade.
245
:particularly because the barriers to
create and distribute content are so low.
246
:There is a flood of content.
247
:And so the ability to trust that the
content is correct, that it's factual,
248
:that it's accurate, that it's up to date.
249
:that sense that you trust the person
or brand that it's coming from, not
250
:just factually, does it make sense,
but like just on a gut level, if I see
251
:your name pop up in my feed or in my
inbox, or I land on a website, do I
252
:feel like I can trust that information?
253
:So I'm not even going to
consume the information.
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:If I land on a site, that's
got like pop ups everywhere.
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:And it looks like it was from 1996, like.
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:I don't actually care if you have the
most rigorous and proper methodology
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:to conduct your original research.
258
:I'm a little concerned that it's
not that trustworthy, right?
259
:So I actually think that trust
piece, has fundamentally changed.
260
:And then I also think that the
like help or remediation intent, I
261
:think that's fundamentally changed.
262
:Again, there's so many low
code or no code solutions.
263
:There's so many, what you see
is what you get and there's.
264
:there's so many automations, there's so
many integrations that the assumption
265
:that someone should be able to figure
this out themselves, like, I don't want
266
:to pay for an implementation consultant.
267
:I don't want to have to bring on advisory
services for a year long contract.
268
:I don't want to have to have a weekly call
just to get this stupid product to work.
269
:So I do think that that help
or remediation intent content
270
:is a fundamental shift.
271
:Those are the two.
272
:I think that.
273
:Buy intent, use intent and learn intent
are pretty steady throughout, you know,
274
:again, to your point, the formats and
the channels have changed, but I do
275
:think trust intent and help intent have
significantly shifted over the last
276
:decade.
277
:Justin Norris: You know, it's really
interesting what you said about
278
:trust because it made me reflect just
as you were speaking like, we said
279
:back in the day, you know, a guide
from HubSpot or a guide from Marketo
280
:on this is how you do this thing.
281
:It was very authoritative.
282
:And I looked to vendors to
educate me on those subjects.
283
:And now I have an almost, an opposite
reaction where it's like, I've
284
:said the vendor is saying something
it's almost guaranteed to be biased
285
:towards their own product in some way.
286
:It's I trust it much, much
less and I trust individuals at
287
:those companies much, much more.
288
:Do you see like a shift in the dynamics
between the individual versus the
289
:brand and delivering the content?
290
:Ashley Faus: For sure.
291
:And I think a big part of this is that
because we have swung so far onto the,
292
:every single asset must drive revenue.
293
:It all ends up being quite salesy.
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:And so we've conditioned the audience.
295
:to believe that anything coming
from a brand is going to sell.
296
:Even if that asset actually doesn't
sell, the assumption is if it's coming
297
:from a brand, it's going to sell.
298
:And in contrast, individuals
don't have to sell.
299
:So I'm actually a perfect
example of this, right?
300
:Like I work for Atlassian.
301
:Everyone knows I work for Atlassian.
302
:I frequently talk about my work.
303
:I'll sometimes jump in on a LinkedIn
thread and be like, Hey, I'm biased, but
304
:like, just going to throw in a plug for
Jira and Confluence for this use case.
305
:Right.
306
:But if you look at the bulk of my
content, I'm not selling anything.
307
:I'm just, I'm sharing ideas.
308
:The thing I'm selling is the
ideas that I want to spread.
309
:I want to work with smart marketers.
310
:And the benefit I get from sharing is if
people adopt my ideas, I get to work with
311
:people who think like me and, build on the
way that I think marketing should be done.
312
:So when I do talk about Atlassian, It
actually has credibility precisely because
313
:I don't always talk about Atlassian.
314
:You don't get this sense that I'm
just out there being a shill and that
315
:somebody behind the screen is forcing
me to say certain things, it's this
316
:weird dichotomy where it's almost more
beneficial to have your employees not
317
:always talking about the brand so that
when they do talk about the brand, It
318
:stands out as authentic and unbiased.
319
:I do think having individuals say full
disclosure, I work for this brand or, Hey,
320
:I know I'm biased because I'm a marketer
for this product, but here's the thing.
321
:the pitch as it were.
322
:So I do think there's still a place
where the brand can lend a halo to
323
:an individual, but I think it is much
more common for individuals to also
324
:lend a halo to the brand than it was
when it was just a lot harder to create
325
:content.
326
:Justin Norris: And if I think of the
trust dynamics of that situation,
327
:it's really all the years that you
have put into your career, sharing
328
:thought leadership, you know, speaking
at conferences, going on podcasts.
329
:Like you've built up, credits in
the bank that create that trust,
330
:that when this person speaks, you
know, they have something genuine
331
:to contribute to the conversation.
332
:They're not just being
a shell for a brand.
333
:So when you do say like, actually, I
really endorse this particular product for
334
:this particular use case, whether you're
biased or not, by where you work, there's
335
:like a, okay, like I take that seriously
versus, you can easily pay or now with
336
:AI churn out, you know, Hundreds of blog
posts saturate search engines There's
337
:nothing behind it just kind of shows up.
338
:It's very ephemeral.
339
:it really strikes me like that the
people are being foregrounded in a
340
:new way and, it brings us then to
this notion of like B2B creators,
341
:which we're sort of importing from.
342
:the YouTube world and the TikTok
world and, you know, those things
343
:that, uh, the kids in Gen Z are
doing I've been calling it like the
344
:TikTok-ification of a B2B where we see
345
:like funny videos, like video games.
346
:They're not like polished and corporate.
347
:They're sort of rough, but
they very entertaining and
348
:they're very, interesting.
349
:and then another part of my brain goes
like, is this actually selling anything?
350
:Like, Is it entertaining the people
that watch it, but is it helping?
351
:so maybe I'm just curious for you
to unpack your, perspective on this
352
:whole trend and where it's going.
353
:Ashley Faus: Yeah, it's super
interesting because I actually think
354
:This is an evolution of the previous
trend, which was around, why marketers
355
:need to think more like moviemakers?
356
:Why Netflix is the best
marketer in the whole world?
357
:And creating a feature length film
that is an hour and a half to two hours
358
:long, with some of the best actors
in the industry, the best CGI, multi
359
:million dollar budgets for both the
production and the distribution of that?
360
:Sure, if you have that, yeah,
you can definitely create.
361
:a Netflix level or a,
blockbuster level film.
362
:I actually, when I was, I
attended South by Southwest.
363
:I mean, this was probably in 2014
and I went to a panel, basically a
364
:presentation talking about how to
create these awesome brand experiences.
365
:And it was the agency who worked on
HBO's Westworld, which is this like
366
:alternate reality where people are
robots and it was a whole thing.
367
:And literally the experience that they
were talking about was that they had
368
:rented out an entire Southwest Airlines
jet and like were flying full jet loads
369
:of celebrities and influencers and
people out to this desert full on town.
370
:They had hundreds of actors and they were
like, so really, when you think about
371
:this, how can you create this experience?
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:And I'm like.
373
:Yeah, if I can book out a full jet and
fly people to a three day experience
374
:that is, like, this immersive, full ghost
town with hundreds of actors, yeah, I
375
:can generate millions of social media
impressions and press coverage, too.
376
:So particularly on the post with
Kieran, the creator that he linked.
377
:I watched an interview with her
where she breaks down her process.
378
:She's legit.
379
:Like she's studying videos.
380
:She has mastered YouTube shorts.
381
:She's got spreadsheets.
382
:She's looking at every single one
of her videos down to the second.
383
:She can tell you that every video
needs to be exactly 34 seconds
384
:because that's at the 35th second,
that's where she sees the drop off.
385
:And she knows that because her last
three videos that were 37 seconds, 36
386
:seconds and 35 seconds underperformed.
387
:Right.
388
:Dude, I agree with you.
389
:If I had time.
390
:To go down that rabbit hole.
391
:And I would say I'm, pretty nerdy
about the LinkedIn algorithm.
392
:Like I, nerd out on that.
393
:not to that level.
394
:I don't have time to go all the way down
that full rabbit hole, but I agree with
395
:you that if you give every single B2B
marketer the opportunity to go down the
396
:rabbit hole on a single audience, on a
single channel, on a single asset type,
397
:And you let them choose what they want
to work on and what they want to create,
398
:100 percent you can make things go viral.
399
:That's not a very fair comparison, right?
400
:So I think that's the first thing
is the constraints are different,
401
:both in terms of time, money, then
obviously from a metric standpoint, your
402
:point about, is it selling anything?
403
:I would assume, this gal is making.
404
:Lots of money, actually.
405
:her videos, she gets like a
million views per video on YouTube.
406
:it would not surprise me if
she is making a lot of money.
407
:Where that money is coming from isn't
going to work from a B2B perspective.
408
:So I actually posted this, in a follow up.
409
:We had a video that, we're
actually working on because it
410
:doesn't have a lot of views.
411
:And so a couple of people are kind
of poking at it being like, Hey, Why
412
:doesn't this video have very many views?
413
:why did we create this?
414
:If it doesn't have very many views
and the marketer who created it said,
415
:well, every single conference where we
have a booth, people come up and ask us
416
:this question and our salespeople are
telling us that they get this question
417
:all the time when they get on calls.
418
:So we made this video to answer it.
419
:And then the next question was, well,
has it actually influenced any deals?
420
:Like, can we actually point
to some other metrics?
421
:And the marketer replied, well, actually
it was just showed in this, several
422
:hundred thousand dollar deal that, we're
close to closing with this customer.
423
:And so in contrast to the traditional
creator, B2B marketers don't
424
:actually need the biggest audience.
425
:We need the right audience
with deep pockets.
426
:I don't actually need to
get a million views a year.
427
:If I get the right 10 views, And
I get in the right rooms, Mr.
428
:Beast is the perfect example of a
creator where everyone's like, he's
429
:making, you know, tens or hundreds
of millions of dollars a year.
430
:The flip side of that is if you
look at his progression, this
431
:is you know, his first year, he
made 3, 000 his next year, he
432
:And I make 3, 000 for
the business in a year.
433
:Like I don't have a job anymore.
434
:The business doesn't exist anymore.
435
:Even if I'm a solopreneur for myself,
if I quit my job at Atlassian and I
436
:go all in on Instagram or LinkedIn
and I make three grand, like that's.
437
:going to be a problem for my household,
there's some of it where, in contrast,
438
:I can stay in my job at Atlassian
and close 10 deals and they might
439
:each be worth two or 3 million.
440
:Cool.
441
:So you're telling me with the
right 10 deals, you can make
442
:as much money as you want.
443
:A YouTuber that gets a
million views on their videos.
444
:Like it's just not the same comparison.
445
:I think the mindset of experimentation,
the mindset of optimization, the
446
:mindset of truly studying the audience,
the narratives, the assets, and the
447
:channels, all of that, we should adapt.
448
:there is a human behind the screen.
449
:So the storytelling, that
sense of human connection, but.
450
:The idea that virality alone is the thing
we should chase and that as B2B marketers,
451
:we're failing because we don't get a
million views on our YouTube videos.
452
:That's where I start to get
real twitchy about the metrics.
453
:Justin Norris: Yeah.
454
:I think you, you put it really well.
455
:And the.
456
:Other difference that I think was implicit
in your response is that like for a Mr.
457
:Beast or the youtuber that you were
describing they are selling Entertainment
458
:in exchange for your attention, which
then you know gives them ad revenue in
459
:YouTube And in B2B it's totally different.
460
:The video has to serve a
completely different purpose.
461
:And the entertainment value may be
like the spoonful of sugar that helps
462
:the medicine go down, so to speak.
463
:But then there has to be some other
Oh, now I feel a greater affinity with
464
:this brand, or I feel greater trust,
or I'm more interested in what they do.
465
:And a lot of the stuff that I see, and
this is what had me scratching my head,
466
:like, okay, yeah, it's good for a laugh,
but it's also kind of silly sometimes.
467
:And I remember the creator,
but I may not even remember the
468
:brand that they're doing it for.
469
:I just remember the skit and it was funny.
470
:And so I just wonder if it's
actually achieving its goals.
471
:It may truly be achieving
engagement, but not actually any,
472
:um, marketing goal for the brand.
473
:Ashley Faus: Yeah, it's
interesting too, right?
474
:Because, so for example, my bio says,
marketer, writer, speaker by day,
475
:singer, actor, fitness fiend by night.
476
:Because I frequently incorporate
acting content or fitness
477
:content into my LinkedIn posts,
478
:it's twice now it's happened where,
we've talked about doing something
479
:around like muscles and marketing.
480
:And it's like, yeah, we're just
going to do bicep curls for a 30
481
:minute live stream about marketing.
482
:I'm like, Hey, I'm down.
483
:You know, another one was wanting
to talk about, running on a
484
:treadmill and talking about it.
485
:And I'm like, running is not my
favorite, but if that's what we need to
486
:do, if that's your favorite, I'm down.
487
:Right.
488
:So people do associate me with fitness.
489
:singing, acting, and performing.
490
:And I do think that that
helps differentiate.
491
:Me and my content from a lot of
the other creators on LinkedIn.
492
:if you ask them what I'm an expert
in, and when you invite me onto
493
:a podcast, you don't ask me for
tips to build bigger biceps.
494
:You don't ask me for tips about
how to audition for a show.
495
:That's not what I'm here for.
496
:And while you like me more because I
give you those examples, or while you may
497
:think of me and be able to identify with
me more because of those things, at the
498
:core, the reason you want to talk to me
is to solve a marketing problem, right?
499
:So it's this interesting thing where I
think that entertainment value is, that
500
:icing on the cake or to your point, it's
the sugar that helps the medicine go down.
501
:It's not the point.
502
:I actually have other spaces.
503
:Where, personal writing or, pictures
of cakes, that is the point.
504
:they achieve a very different thing.
505
:the reality is they don't achieve anything
because I don't focus on those spaces.
506
:Right.
507
:But if I want to achieve LinkedIn
goals of being seen as an expert in
508
:marketing, I have to talk about marketing
and I have to talk about it at depth.
509
:there's plenty of people who can say, my
quippy phrasing is the funnel is dead.
510
:Use a playground instead.
511
:I can just post that
as a meme all day long.
512
:But at some point, somebody is going
to be like, do you mean by that?
513
:Can you actually do it?
514
:Have you actually done it?
515
:How can I do it?
516
:Like you can't just run around
declaring things dead as a meme.
517
:And achieve your goal of being
seen as an expert, right?
518
:So I think, there is a balance of that
more personal or relatable or funny,
519
:whatever it is, hook to keep people
interested, but it does not achieve the
520
:same goals around expertise or revenue.
521
:If you're a B2B company
as that meaty content.
522
:Justin Norris: Maybe that's a good
point to transition to talking about
523
:that concept of, the playground.
524
:That's actually how I think I
discovered your content, your LinkedIn.
525
:because I'd, made some off the cuff
post about like, you know, I just
526
:don't think it makes sense to map
content to funnel stages anymore.
527
:And so I was like, Oh, you should
check out Ashley's article here
528
:about the content playground.
529
:I was like, Oh yeah, totally.
530
:That makes sense to me.
531
:People still to this day, investors,
other experts I talked to, they
532
:want you to go through that exercise
of like, take your content, map it
533
:to the funnel, blah, blah, blah.
534
:So maybe just walk us through
your point of view there and why
535
:that idea, , doesn't make sense.
536
:What do you recommend instead?
537
:Ashley Faus: My mindset around the funnel
is that it's a retrospective measurement
538
:tool, not a forward looking strategy tool.
539
:So yes, if you look at, deals closed
one deals closed, lost, a certain
540
:amount of people are going to become
aware of the product or service.
541
:A certain number of them are going
to evaluate and figure out, you know,
542
:Hey, is this set of tools or this
service going to solve my problem?
543
:A certain number of them
will eventually buy.
544
:obviously if you were in some
sort of subscription business.
545
:You know, there's that additional fourth
phase around retention, upsell, cross
546
:sell advocacy, where they will keep buying
and they will tell other people to buy
547
:or they will expand within their company
and invite more users onto the platform.
548
:Factually, that is a thing that happens.
549
:But to say that a piece of content
Is awareness, like if we go back
550
:to the intense that I described
earlier, what do you mean by aware?
551
:Like if I see that your company is hiring
a lot of different people, and so I'm
552
:constantly seeing, seeing you on LinkedIn
because people are announcing that they
553
:just got a job at X, Y, or Z company.
554
:I mean, technically I'm aware of the
company, but am I in any way trying
555
:to buy from them just because I
saw a bunch of job posts, like, no.
556
:and I think that the other issue
with the funnel is that it basically
557
:starts when the company recognizes
that someone is on a buying journey.
558
:It completely ignores all the
other journeys that they could
559
:be on and everything that
happened before the company.
560
:is made aware that they're on a journey.
561
:Right.
562
:that's the first thing is that
people don't buy that way.
563
:Nobody wakes up and is like today I
shall be in the consideration phase.
564
:Like that's not how humans work.
565
:Right.
566
:sure.
567
:If we retrospectively look at some
point they had to consider the product,
568
:but like nobody thinks that way.
569
:I think that's the first thing.
570
:I think the second thing is that
it tries to force people into this
571
:journey That only goes one way.
572
:So I've had this example, right?
573
:Pricing is traditionally considered
a bottom of funnel or purchase
574
:or decision level conversation.
575
:But if I'm trying to secure budget.
576
:So that I can even kick
off a buying process.
577
:I have to get a sense
of what the pricing is.
578
:So I had this issue.
579
:I, you know, was going
to look at buying a tool.
580
:My boss asked me, you know, we were
in the planning process and he was
581
:like, how much money do you need?
582
:And I'm like, I don't know.
583
:So I reached out to a bunch of reps.
584
:I'm like, Hey, What's the general
pricing for this number of licenses
585
:that, this tier of product.
586
:And they kept coming back and being
like, you need to read this white paper.
587
:You need to book a demo.
588
:I'm like, y'all, I'm not Bant qualified.
589
:And I know Bant is not
the most current thing.
590
:I'm not on the sales side,
but I didn't have budget.
591
:I
592
:Justin Norris: You're
trying to get budget.
593
:You need a number so that you can
594
:get it.
595
:Ashley Faus: right.
596
:Um, and I'm trying to get budget.
597
:So.
598
:So.
599
:finally one person gave me pricing.
600
:, so I was actually able to go back and
said, Hey, I need this much money.
601
:I got the budget.
602
:So then I came back to all of
those vendors and I said, hello,
603
:I have budget and I'm looking to
spend it in the next six months.
604
:So you got, I solved the B and the T
and I even said, like, I am the decision
605
:maker, so I've got authority and I
have this need, like I'm bought in.
606
:here's the criteria of what
I'm looking for based on my
607
:understanding of the problem.
608
:So I get on the sales
call and they're like.
609
:96 percent of buyers and they're
like going on and on about why I
610
:should care about this problem.
611
:And I'm like, I'm going
to stop you right there.
612
:I'm bought in on the problem
needing to be solved.
613
:I'm bought in that a tool
like yours solves it.
614
:Why should I buy your tool?
615
:And the number of reps that
could not be like, Oh shoot,
616
:she's trying to make a decision.
617
:Like she's ready to spend.
618
:They wanted to like,
send me five case studies
619
:and I'm like, why are you trying
to educate me about a problem that
620
:I already agree with you about?
621
:I don't care.
622
:I don't need to see any
more research about this.
623
:Show me your product.
624
:Right?
625
:So again, that funnel mindset, it's
like, well, we built this pitch
626
:and you've just now arrived to us,
you know, you filled out the form.
627
:So that means you're in the
awareness phase and it's your
628
:first call with a sales rep.
629
:So clearly you're just
barely in consideration.
630
:I'm like, no, I'm in
decision and purchase.
631
:So where am I going to purchase you or
am I going to purchase your competitor
632
:they just couldn't even do anything.
633
:Right.
634
:Like they couldn't figure it out.
635
:but then once I actually got the
tool, I had leadership buy in, but
636
:I didn't actually have user buy in.
637
:So then at that point I was
asking them, Hey, can you actually
638
:send me all that research?
639
:So that I can convince the users why
they should care about using this tool.
640
:And I need to convince the
users that this is a problem.
641
:And they're like, Oh, well, we're
gonna run onboarding sessions for you.
642
:And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
643
:See, here's the problem.
644
:The users are actually not
bought in on this problem, right?
645
:Like they're actually not bought in
on why we need to solve this problem.
646
:So me as an economic buyer, I'm
bought in and I bought, but my
647
:users, they're not bought in.
648
:So I actually need to go.
649
:Awareness, I guess, my users.
650
:And again, it's just like, when I describe
that, everybody shakes their head and
651
:they're like, yes, that's the problem.
652
:And I'm like, great.
653
:which of that content maps
654
:into the funnel stages.
655
:they're just like, Oh it
doesn't really map very well.
656
:And I'm like we're back to that
intent about how you think about that.
657
:the other framework that I use
for this is content depths.
658
:So conceptual, strategic, and tactical.
659
:and again, those do not have an intent.
660
:You put an intent on those.
661
:but that's really a lot of that
education phase, whether it's
662
:education, about the problem space,
education, about the solution space.
663
:You know, the what, the why
of the idea versus tools, key
664
:knowledge components, et cetera.
665
:Equipping the audience
to do their own research.
666
:And then obviously at the tactical level.
667
:It is rarely yeah, just log
into the tool every day.
668
:there's probably some other
stuff that needs to happen.
669
:What is that stuff?
670
:Right?
671
:Um, and so being able to have that,
that different depth of content mix,
672
:I think is a better way to think about
planning, to make sure you have enough
673
:depth in your narratives, beyond just
buy this product, today and log in every
674
:day, you know, and then when it's time
to renew, see, you logged in every day.
675
:So you should renew because
clearly you're getting value.
676
:Justin Norris: I've lived that
experience you described with the
677
:salespeople so often, especially
because like I'm a more technical buyer.
678
:So I've done my research and usually
I just want to see the problem.
679
:And then I have to sit through
the like half an hour of slides.
680
:So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
681
:Like I understand.
682
:So, I mean, there's a whole other
tangent around like the sales process
683
:and how it gets broken that we could
go on, but contrasting that with
684
:this metaphor of the playground,
that, a playground is free flowing.
685
:There's no start or stop.
686
:There's no fixed thing.
687
:There are different.
688
:I don't even know what they would
be called, but different pieces of
689
:equipment on the playground that can
be used for different things and you
690
:can sort of pick and choose where
you want to go based on your need.
691
:It's very elegant and, um,
and it's a wonderful metaphor.
692
:I think it makes a lot of sense.
693
:Practically speaking, trying to
implement that, whether at Atlassian or
694
:elsewhere, maybe with clients, I don't
know, but like, What have you seen, you
695
:know, putting that in, into practice?
696
:Does the funnel just keep sort of
reasserting itself like this sort
697
:of bad dream that we can't forget?
698
:Or, or does it actually work and work
really well to change the dynamic?
699
:Ashley Faus: I do a lot of, uh, language
translation in this vein of like, cool.
700
:You want to talk funnel?
701
:I can talk funnel.
702
:Let's, let's have that conversation.
703
:Right.
704
:I do find that the funnel language Is
still helpful for buy intent content and
705
:journeys because again, yes, it's a handy
retrospective measurement tool, right?
706
:Um, so I'll give an example.
707
:And again, this kind of like
brings in that fitness background.
708
:Um, if you ask the question, what
does it mean to be healthy and fit?
709
:Most people agree it's some
combination of diet and exercise.
710
:But you're going to answer that
question very differently if you're
711
:runner's world versus muscle and
fitness versus yoga journal, right?
712
:So, um, I'm, I like
bodybuilding style workouts.
713
:So let's pretend that we're
going to answer this question
714
:as muscle and fitness magazine.
715
:So at the conceptual level, you
would say you're healthy and fit
716
:if you have big, strong muscles
and you eat a high protein diet.
717
:At the strategic depth, you would
probably be talking about things
718
:like different sources of protein or
fast digesting versus slow digesting
719
:protein, like from a diet perspective.
720
:And then, you know, how to have
good form when you're lifting.
721
:And then at the tactical level,
this is 10 tips to build bigger
722
:biceps or five chicken dinner
recipes to try this week, right?
723
:So that's how you apply it
from a depth perspective.
724
:Then when you think about it
from the intent perspective.
725
:Notice in all of those things,
I didn't sell you anything.
726
:I taught you about protein and lifting.
727
:You can easily start inserting products
like protein supplements in there, or
728
:booking a time with a trainer, or buying
a gym membership, or booking a time
729
:with a nutrition consultant, buying a
meal template, buying meal kits, right?
730
:I can insert a lot of different buy
intense CTAs into each of those articles.
731
:I can also tweak it, right?
732
:So let's say we're having a strategic
conversation, a strategic depth
733
:conversation, um, about macros.
734
:So how much fat, carbs, and
protein should you eat in order to
735
:build big, strong muscles, right?
736
:I can, I can have that conversation
At that strategic level, and I can
737
:put in a buy intent CTA that is,
you know, buy this meal delivery
738
:service and they will deliver meals
to you that are the correct macros.
739
:I can also do something that
is a use intent CTA, which is.
740
:Buy, you know, download this free
template that will give you some
741
:recipe ideas within that free template.
742
:I can include a buy intent CTA that
has affiliate links for different
743
:ingredients by these egg whites
or by this protein mix that works
744
:really well for protein pancakes.
745
:Right.
746
:Um, from a help intent perspective,
I can then send you to a forum
747
:where it's like, here's my stats.
748
:Here's what I've been doing.
749
:I'm not losing weight or
I'm not getting stronger.
750
:Can you help me troubleshoot this?
751
:So again, using my own personal example.
752
:Uh, I've been, I was chasing the one plate
bench, the 45 pounds on each side for
753
:about a decade off and on for a decade.
754
:And I felt like I was doing a good
progression, but I was struggling.
755
:And so I asked several of my
colleagues, I've got a powerlifting
756
:coach colleague, I've got a sensei
colleague, and then my husband is also
757
:kind of a traditional bodybuilder.
758
:And so I was asking them like, Hey,
help me troubleshoot my bench press.
759
:I could have hired.
760
:a lifting coach to do that for me.
761
:But instead I went, you know,
the, the kind of help intent route
762
:of asking these other experts.
763
:So if you're a forum, you could include
a buy intent CTA to pay the monthly
764
:subscription fee to join the forum.
765
:And then you're actually getting
help intent content from the forum
766
:by saying, I'm going to post a
video of me doing bench press.
767
:Why can't I lift this weight and then
people can say, Oh, your form is bad or,
768
:Oh, you know, your, your speed, you're
lifting it too slow or whatever it is.
769
:Right.
770
:So when you think about it that
way, the playground that I basically
771
:just took you down, it's like.
772
:That, wow, you can add by intent
CTAs, you can flip this to be use
773
:intent, you can match the depths
with the different intent CTAs.
774
:You can do that in multiple
channels, whether it's an online
775
:forum, like maybe you're browsing
recipes on Pinterest, right?
776
:And you land on a chicken dinner recipe
and the opening line says, protein is the
777
:key to building, you know, big muscles.
778
:And so that's why you need
this chicken dinner recipe.
779
:You can link that.
780
:And if I'm not convinced, if I don't know
why protein matters, I can click that
781
:link and it could take me all the way back
up to the conceptual level about maybe
782
:a research paper that talks about, you
know, why protein matters or whatever.
783
:So if I'm already convinced that
protein is very important, I could
784
:just keep going down the row of
chicken dinner recipes, right?
785
:So that's that.
786
:I give that example because a
lot of people understand at least
787
:some portion of that concept.
788
:I get it that it's very complicated
when you start doing this from a
789
:software or B, you know, B2B SaaS.
790
:That's what I'm coming from perspective.
791
:But we have done this exercise where,
you know, you've got agile methodology at
792
:kind of a conceptual and strategic level.
793
:We then drop that all the way down
into, you know, how to run your
794
:standups, um, how to groom your backlog.
795
:Oh, and it just so happens we can give
you a tutorial of, you know, Building
796
:and grooming your backlog in JIRA.
797
:Um, if you log into the product and it
asks you what template you want, and
798
:it says, do you want Kanban or scrum?
799
:And you're like, I don't, I don't
actually know which template I should use.
800
:Cool.
801
:Pop all the way back up to that
conceptual or strategic level
802
:about agile methodology and the
differences between scrum and Kanban.
803
:So you can decide how you
want to run your team.
804
:Regardless of the tool you use, if you
were implementing agile methodology, you
805
:can use sticky notes on a whiteboard.
806
:But obviously.
807
:We would prefer that you use,
you know, one of our tools to
808
:run to implement those practices.
809
:Right?
810
:So that's a, that's a quick example of
how we've done that to where you could see
811
:how it's mapped to the different CTAs, um,
at the, at the different content depths.
812
:Justin Norris: And then in terms of
the, the ecosystem you create for people
813
:to consume that content, is it about.
814
:You know, contrasting it with like
a traditional resource center where
815
:people lay out their content, you can
filter it by format or by, by topic.
816
:Like, how do you think about structuring
the sort of virtual environment of your
817
:playground so that people can easily
navigate between those different places?
818
:Ashley Faus: The biggest thing is
understanding where your audience
819
:is already spending time and how
they like to consume information.
820
:So there's not 1 right answer to this.
821
:There's obviously certain places where you
have more control, like a resource center.
822
:And in that case, making sure that,
um, your filters, your tags and your.
823
:Kind of cross linking or what to
read next, or your video embeds are
824
:in the language of your audience.
825
:Um, the other big thing
there is having clear CTA.
826
:So I'm on a whole rant lately
against the learn more CTA.
827
:What am I going to learn?
828
:Did not know.
829
:Maybe I just learned like, right?
830
:So if you've, if you, let's say you've
given me a demo of the product, right?
831
:And then you're like, learn more.
832
:And I'm like, right.
833
:But.
834
:You taught me how to use this feature.
835
:Am I not going to use it?
836
:Right?
837
:So like use template, book a
demo, contact sales, read the next
838
:article, download the ebook, right?
839
:Like that tells me what's going to
happen when I click that button.
840
:So using the language of your audience
on owned properties with filters and tags
841
:and navigation, giving them clear CTAs.
842
:So they know, am I going down a buying
path or am I going down a not buying path?
843
:And then obviously you
match the intents Per CTA.
844
:If it's a use intent, then it's Use
the template, log into the product, try
845
:it now, you know, that kind of thing.
846
:And it takes you directly
into the product.
847
:Um, so that's for owned properties.
848
:And then for non owned properties,
again, it really depends on where
849
:your audience is spending time.
850
:So LinkedIn has different
rules than YouTube.
851
:Um, both of those spaces have different
rules than Reddit or Discord, for example.
852
:So.
853
:Um, playing by the rules, not only of
the platform, but also understanding
854
:where your audience is and the
expectation that they have when
855
:they are consuming, um, sharing or
discussing content in those spaces.
856
:Justin Norris: And then what about email?
857
:Because, you know, the traditional
way of, uh, distributing that content
858
:in a linear funnel fashion, it was
supposed to be like, we have our
859
:content top of funnel, we get people
in, we get their email address.
860
:Now we nurture them and we like drip out
our content and this magical, Sequence
861
:that is going to like pop out a you know,
purchase ready person at the other end
862
:And of course that you know for all the
reasons that you mentioned that doesn't
863
:really map to reality But email is still
a channel people still like substack
864
:is bigger than ever That's the example.
865
:I always keep thinking of like
people want to read things by email.
866
:So how do you Without trying
to like, linear alize, if that
867
:is a word, the, the process.
868
:How do you think about distributing
that content via email?
869
:I
870
:Ashley Faus: So I think the biggest
thing is that previously email was
871
:meant, or was basically used as a way
to get you over to the website, right?
872
:Like looking at things like
open rates, looking at things
873
:like click through rates.
874
:Um, that was.
875
:It, it was intended to get you
somewhere else out of the inbox.
876
:Um, similar to what we're
seeing on social media.
877
:I love how Amanda Nuttabidad puts it
where she calls it zero click content.
878
:How do you deliver that value where
the audience is already spending time?
879
:So if you look at a lot of the
newsletters that are very popular
880
:now, or, you know, emails where that
actually get opened and read the
881
:bulk of the value sits in the email.
882
:It's not trying to send you
off to another platform.
883
:And so I think that's the biggest thing
is understanding if you're curating
884
:an audience that wants, you know,
three quick tips every Friday, cool.
885
:Give them the quick tips and then sure.
886
:Maybe include, you know, a link
that's like, yeah, we actually talk
887
:about this in our upcoming webinar
or the webinar that just passed.
888
:Right.
889
:But don't measure the
success of that email.
890
:Based on whether or not somebody
clicked to watch the webinar, right?
891
:Um, there's also, I mean, Substack
is a perfect example, right?
892
:Like that is a lot of really long,
dense content that gets sent and
893
:it all, it's basically a thousand
word article in the inbox, right?
894
:Um, so I think that's the other big piece
of this is like, don't treat email as.
895
:A distribution channel
for another channel.
896
:It's its own channel and people want
to consume that content where they are.
897
:Um, and so if you've basically
built an audience that expects to
898
:get that value from the email, just
give them the value from the email.
899
:Don't make them click somewhere
else just so that you can be like,
900
:haha, they clicked the link, right?
901
:It's like, okay, well, if the only
thing it's doing similar to social
902
:media, if you just put a bunch of
links on social media and only measure
903
:the value of that channel as how many
people clicked through to the website.
904
:Like that's a super old school
mindset that just doesn't work.
905
:People are too busy to like,
it, get a little teaser and
906
:then click over somewhere else.
907
:Um, you need to give them
actual standalone value.
908
:And then if they do want to
click over, That's awesome.
909
:Let them do that.
910
:But you have to give them enough
value directly in the email for
911
:them to continue opening and
staying subscribed to that email.
912
:Justin Norris: mean, there's a
common theme of buyer centricity
913
:in all of these points.
914
:Whether in the sales process, or in
content distribution, or anywhere.
915
:Like, stop trying to ram people into
our thing, that we think it should be.
916
:You know, just give them, give them what
917
:Ashley Faus: Yeah.
918
:Well, it's funny too, because I, I hear
this a lot where people are like, they're
919
:very focused on a buyer or a user and they
forget that this person is a whole human.
920
:Completely outside of whatever
your company thinks they
921
:should or should not be doing.
922
:Right.
923
:And I think that's the
other piece with the funnel.
924
:It only recognizes people
as a buyer or a user.
925
:And so when you only approach
people through what you as a
926
:company can get out of them, that's
the thing that breaks the trust.
927
:That's the thing that makes
people unsubscribe or roll
928
:their eyes or not click through.
929
:So it's not just about.
930
:What is this person as a buyer or a user?
931
:Like where's the asymmetric
upside for them as a whole human?
932
:Versus I, as a company have decided
that you are this person and therefore
933
:you must take these actions, right?
934
:Like, it's just, it gets wonky and I
get it, you know, I'm not a Pollyanna.
935
:I have to, I have to make my numbers
too, but the personalization and the
936
:journeys that have actually resulted
in me buying something are when that
937
:whoever's on the other side of that
screen recognizes me as a whole human.
938
:Can figure out how to unite all of these
other things that I'm doing besides
939
:just I filled out your form to contact
sales to buy this specific product.
940
:Right?
941
:Like it's that transactional mindset
is I think the other big shift.
942
:It's not about rushing people
to a purchase in as few
943
:touch points as possible.
944
:It's really about seamless
handoffs that create it.
945
:A delightful and helpful journey,
no matter which path someone takes
946
:again, that playground mindset,
it's about those seamless handoffs.
947
:And it's about that help that
empowerment and that delight.
948
:And if it turns out that those 3 things.
949
:end up making the person realize
that like, actually it would be
950
:super helpful to buy your tool.
951
:Cool.
952
:We, you know, that's,
that's a great fit for us.
953
:But I think there's also, um, a
lot of ways to exchange value,
954
:you know, job candidates, co
marketing partners, et cetera.
955
:Um, strategic partners, referrals,
there's a lot of ways to exchange value.
956
:And I think sometimes we get so focused
on, um, Just this one very specific
957
:value exchange of, you know, revenue
in exchange for a product or service
958
:that we forget that there's actually
a lot of other ways to exchange value.
959
:Justin Norris: And maybe the last,
Question that we'll have time for,
960
:you know, again, back in the day, you
know, we had like your blog posts and
961
:your infographics and your eBooks and
like there are these certain formats
962
:and those are still around, but then a
lot more video now, a lot, what, what's
963
:changed, uh, from your perspective, if
anything, in terms of formats and, uh,
964
:what, you know, what are you thinking
about, what should other B2B marketers be
965
:thinking about when it comes to formats?
966
:Ashley Faus: I think the biggest thing
that's changed, I actually talked about
967
:this when I was discussing bringing
live streaming into the marketing mix.
968
:So obviously it's much more common
now people do LinkedIn lives.
969
:They do, you know,
Instagram reels, et cetera.
970
:But it used to be that the spectrum
was very small and it was binary.
971
:It was basically.
972
:You can do cheap, but terrible,
or you can do good, but expensive.
973
:And there was basically no in between.
974
:And obviously if you were a
brand, you had to do good, but
975
:expensive because you're a brand.
976
:You can't put out cheap, but terrible.
977
:Right.
978
:What a lot of these lower barriers
to entry did particularly, and
979
:I think this started with live
streaming, it actually widened it.
980
:Into a proper spectrum, not
just a binary set of choices.
981
:So it widened the spectrum and
it gave you a lot more gradient
982
:points along that spectrum.
983
:So now you can almost have this
middle ground of moderate, you
984
:know, moderate cost, but authentic.
985
:And so that ability to test
the audience being much more
986
:tolerant of less polished content.
987
:It's not that they're more
tolerant of terrible content.
988
:Right?
989
:Like you still have to have a baseline,
decent audio baseline, not shaky camera.
990
:You have to be saying something
interesting, but it no longer has to
991
:be this perfectly polished 50, 000
customer video that takes three months
992
:to produce and is heavily edited.
993
:Right?
994
:So that ability to experiment and
that ability to produce content.
995
:With many more gradient options along
that spectrum, that is a huge shift.
996
:And I think that that is part of going
back to that, that B2B creator mindset.
997
:It's funny because people talk about, Oh,
creators are so much more entertaining
998
:or creators are so much more authentic.
999
:If you look at the best creators, that
content is heavily edited, heavily edited,
:
00:54:10,454 --> 00:54:12,614
those editing tools are more accessible.
:
00:54:12,614 --> 00:54:13,524
Now they're cheaper.
:
00:54:13,574 --> 00:54:14,584
They're easier to use.
:
00:54:15,094 --> 00:54:17,034
And you can experiment a lot more.
:
00:54:17,344 --> 00:54:21,004
So this is where I'm saying,
it's not just, oh, B2B is still
:
00:54:21,004 --> 00:54:22,314
in this highly produced mindset.
:
00:54:22,334 --> 00:54:22,764
No.
:
00:54:23,279 --> 00:54:27,999
The best YouTube creators, their stuff is
highly polished and heavily edited, right?
:
00:54:28,539 --> 00:54:32,679
The thing about them that is more
authentic is that it's a regular human
:
00:54:33,039 --> 00:54:36,519
who is showing maybe their everyday
life or something like that, right?
:
00:54:36,519 --> 00:54:38,149
They're maybe doing a
selfie or whatever it is.
:
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:42,309
So I think that that is the huge
shift, that lower barrier to entry that
:
00:54:42,399 --> 00:54:46,309
has widened that spectrum and given
brands and individuals more freedom.
:
00:54:46,619 --> 00:54:51,079
More ability to create and
therefore iterate and optimize
:
00:54:51,669 --> 00:54:53,329
different points on that spectrum.
:
00:54:53,329 --> 00:54:53,755
Yeah.
:
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:54,570
Justin Norris: Totally.
:
00:54:54,590 --> 00:54:55,670
And actually I lied.
:
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:56,890
Do you have two more minutes?
:
00:54:56,890 --> 00:54:58,410
Can I still ask you one more question?
:
00:54:58,910 --> 00:55:03,320
Cause I just thought of something
I'd really like your take on, um, AI.
:
00:55:03,380 --> 00:55:07,610
I mean, the content space is perhaps
one of the disciplines of marketing,
:
00:55:08,570 --> 00:55:13,800
uh, where AI could most, You know,
legit, not, not legitimately, but
:
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,830
most realistically come in and like
replace a lot of what you're doing.
:
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,470
Uh, not that I necessarily endorsed
that or think it will produce the
:
00:55:19,470 --> 00:55:22,840
same quality or anything, but how are
you, how are you thinking about AI?
:
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:23,530
Is it a threat?
:
00:55:23,550 --> 00:55:24,270
Is it a help?
:
00:55:24,270 --> 00:55:27,400
Is it a, you know, where,
where's your mind go on this?
:
00:55:28,254 --> 00:55:32,664
Ashley Faus: So it's funny because
I am still a bit skeptical about how
:
00:55:32,664 --> 00:55:35,064
much AI actually can replace, right?
:
00:55:35,374 --> 00:55:41,134
And I think some of this is because for
a lot of people who are more senior and
:
00:55:41,134 --> 00:55:46,689
more seasoned, the type of work that
you would ask me to do You wouldn't ask
:
00:55:46,929 --> 00:55:52,329
someone like me to do that work if a
more junior person could do the work.
:
00:55:52,369 --> 00:55:57,319
And so I've heard the analogy that
like, oh, AI is like an intern, right?
:
00:55:57,319 --> 00:55:57,989
And I'm like, okay.
:
00:55:57,989 --> 00:56:00,639
Well, an intern wouldn't do my work.
:
00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:04,849
So it's interesting because it's
like, Ashley, but what if you could
:
00:56:04,849 --> 00:56:07,629
give this task, this task and this
task, you know, to the intern?
:
00:56:07,639 --> 00:56:08,659
And I'm like, right.
:
00:56:08,659 --> 00:56:10,179
But that still requires me.
:
00:56:10,709 --> 00:56:14,539
To have a strategy, know the audience,
frame the problem correctly, frame
:
00:56:14,539 --> 00:56:18,609
the steps correctly, that work
that I'm doing is still valuable.
:
00:56:19,219 --> 00:56:25,419
And yeah, it can be really great
to give something to a more junior
:
00:56:25,419 --> 00:56:29,069
worker, whether that worker is AI
or whether that worker is a human.
:
00:56:29,409 --> 00:56:32,029
Um, so I think that's
the 1st thing is that.
:
00:56:32,504 --> 00:56:35,404
This sweeping statement that
like, Oh, it's going to take
:
00:56:35,404 --> 00:56:36,964
over 90 percent of the jobs.
:
00:56:36,964 --> 00:56:41,254
And I'm like, okay, but the 10 percent
of jobs that it can't do are real
:
00:56:41,254 --> 00:56:46,034
important then, and how do we train
up the next generation of marketers?
:
00:56:46,064 --> 00:56:49,414
Part of the reason that I'm good at
what I do is because I learned all
:
00:56:49,414 --> 00:56:51,114
those lessons early in my career.
:
00:56:51,914 --> 00:56:52,364
So.
:
00:56:53,174 --> 00:56:58,104
If the newer marketers, if the next
generation of marketers is no longer
:
00:56:58,104 --> 00:57:04,524
learning by doing, how do we effectively
train them to have that critical
:
00:57:04,534 --> 00:57:08,914
thinking, to do the troubleshooting,
to know where to start if we're not
:
00:57:08,924 --> 00:57:11,784
giving them that junior level work
that they can eventually work through?
:
00:57:11,784 --> 00:57:13,594
And I think that's
actually my bigger concern.
:
00:57:13,594 --> 00:57:16,414
It's less, Oh, we're going to put
all the marketers out of a job.
:
00:57:16,944 --> 00:57:18,684
No, they're going to,
we're going to rescale.
:
00:57:18,694 --> 00:57:19,574
We're going to upscale.
:
00:57:19,574 --> 00:57:26,284
We're going to cross train, but I do
think that the underlying principles.
:
00:57:27,059 --> 00:57:32,029
That you often learn early in your career
by doing a lot of that kind of tedious
:
00:57:32,029 --> 00:57:37,009
work or analyzation work or optimizing,
you know, blog posts or optimizing
:
00:57:37,029 --> 00:57:38,939
videos or reviewing dashboards, right?
:
00:57:40,059 --> 00:57:46,629
If AI takes all of that work, what are
the inputs so that you can become That
:
00:57:46,689 --> 00:57:50,749
10 percent marketer that's actually doing
the thing that really only the humans
:
00:57:50,769 --> 00:57:53,209
can do that work becomes very important.
:
00:57:53,279 --> 00:57:56,269
So, of course, I'm incorporating
AI into my workflows.
:
00:57:56,339 --> 00:57:57,799
I'm experimenting with a lot of tools.
:
00:57:57,799 --> 00:58:02,519
Like, I think there's a lot of
potential, but I, I, from like a
:
00:58:02,529 --> 00:58:05,739
philosophical standpoint, I'm like,
you guys are missing the point
:
00:58:05,739 --> 00:58:08,889
for senior level marketers there.
:
00:58:09,319 --> 00:58:13,429
They are doing the 10 percent of the work
that, that the humans are going to keep.
:
00:58:13,779 --> 00:58:15,909
And how do we make sure
that the next generation.
:
00:58:16,544 --> 00:58:23,014
Is prepared and able to keep doing that
10 percent that we're all, oh, it's going
:
00:58:23,014 --> 00:58:24,764
to be 90 percent only 10 percent human.
:
00:58:24,764 --> 00:58:25,014
Okay.
:
00:58:25,014 --> 00:58:25,384
Okay.
:
00:58:25,394 --> 00:58:28,744
Well, then we need to have a very
serious conversation about that.
:
00:58:28,744 --> 00:58:30,524
10 percent that we keep as humans.
:
00:58:31,994 --> 00:58:35,994
can argue about whether it's 90 percent
or 50 percent or whatever, but the
:
00:58:35,994 --> 00:58:39,704
percentage that the humans keep, I think
that's the piece that we need to be.
:
00:58:39,874 --> 00:58:45,014
More concerned about in terms of
preparation, um, assessment, and
:
00:58:45,454 --> 00:58:47,384
frankly, compensation for that work.
:
00:58:47,484 --> 00:58:49,904
Um, that doesn't mean that our
compensation should decrease 90
:
00:58:49,904 --> 00:58:53,194
percent because we're quote unquote
only doing 10 percent of the work.
:
00:58:53,194 --> 00:58:57,354
It's like, well, if that's the 10 percent
that the human can do, that might actually
:
00:58:57,354 --> 00:58:59,074
be adding 90 percent of the value.
:
00:58:59,324 --> 00:59:02,434
So I do think that's the other piece
of this, which I know we're at time.
:
00:59:02,434 --> 00:59:05,484
So we can't get into that, but
I think it's a huge call out as
:
00:59:05,484 --> 00:59:05,874
well.
:
00:59:06,529 --> 00:59:08,109
Justin Norris: Totally agree
with you . And yeah, we'll
:
00:59:08,109 --> 00:59:09,619
continue to see where it goes.
:
00:59:09,619 --> 00:59:11,109
It's certainly a wild time in content.
:
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:13,899
And I think what we can say is it's
not going to become any less relevant.
:
00:59:13,899 --> 00:59:15,419
So that's the good news.
:
00:59:15,919 --> 00:59:16,869
Um, yeah.
:
00:59:16,869 --> 00:59:17,299
Thank you so
:
00:59:17,343 --> 00:59:17,593
Ashley Faus: Yeah.
:
00:59:17,593 --> 00:59:18,463
Thanks for having me.
