Building the Community for RevOps - Matt Volm

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

to RevOps FM, everyone.

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Today, we're joined by a seasoned operator

and multi time founder, Matt Volm.

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Matt's a big believer in RevOps,

so much so that he actually

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founded a community around it.

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RevOps Co op, which if you're not already

familiar with it is just a massive

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resource for the RevOps profession.

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They've got courses, a video library,

a Slack community, a knowledge hub.

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In person chapters and this year just had

their first live conference, RevOps AF.

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So Matt really has a bird's

eye view of the discipline.

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he's in RevOps every single day talking

to the community and he's here really to

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chat about his own journey as an operator

and a founder, where RevOps is today and

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maybe a little bit about where it's going.

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So Matt, so happy to have you here.

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Matt Volm: Yeah, thanks, Justin.

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It's good to be

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Justin Norris: Matt, maybe we'll just

start with kind of your entry point into

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the rev ops world and looking through

kind of the roles that you've had.

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I noticed you have a finance background.

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held a number of kind of

strategic finance roles.

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And this seems like a pretty common path

to enter the rev ops field for, some

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people, like there seems to be a, like

finance to sales ops train that some folks

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get on, just curious for your take on this

and why you made that jump and why that

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might be a logical jump for some people.

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Matt Volm: at least as it relates to

finance and accounting, which are,

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a lot of my background, or at least

early on in my career, I think, one

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of the reasons why that's a nice entry

point, like you said, is, when you're

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in finance, right, you understand.

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The financial outcomes of the business,

what success looks like, right?

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Which is ultimately the goal

of every business is to be

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profitable and to continue to grow.

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And, the finance team is the one who truly

understands and is responsible for right?

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Creating.

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the income statement, the balance

sheet, the, P and L every, single month.

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And if you take that, 1 step further,

I think folks like me and others who

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have call it natural curiosity, right?

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You want to get out of, just.

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Putting the numbers together and

actually looking at, what drives

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this, looking at, for example,

sales and marketing, spend, right.

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Operating expenses.

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Like, what are we spending our money on?

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Right.

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What are the results that are getting

produced by that spend, or you see

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revenue go up or revenue go down

and it's like, are we selling more?

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Is that because we lost more customers?

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what kind of happens there?

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So I think it's kind of a natural

foray for folks to go from finance

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into rev ops for that reason is

you have the strong analytics, and,

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business outcomes background that

can really help you be a good revenue

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Justin Norris: I'm curious,

in the finance world, I've.

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Dealt with a lot of different

finance professionals.

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and there does seem to be like in some

roles, sort of descriptive, you're

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like you're reporting the weather.

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we spent, a million

dollars on X last year.

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It's like a fact.

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And then there's, that business

curiosity that you mentioned is that.

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Something that is, more unique in

some parts of the finance space.

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is there like a certain niche

or is it just happens to be a

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group of people and then become

interested in that specific area?

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And that can kind of gravitate

you towards a rev ops role.

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Matt Volm: Yeah, so definitely

depends on like the size of org.

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But a lot of times, you know, it's the F.

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P.

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and a team, at least at larger

companies, which is the financial

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planning and analysis team, right?

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Who's responsible for, doing, full

three statement financial forecast and.

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a lot of that requires you to

understand what those inputs are.

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Like, how much are we going

to spend in certain areas?

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And why are we going to

spend the money there?

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And you're a part of those conversations

and how all of that stuff translates

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into, again, financial outcomes

on the financial statements.

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I sat through, multiple sessions

like that, where, I was working with.

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Okay.

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Folks on the business side, right?

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Who are responsible for saying,

Oh, I want to do this, or we're

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going to hire people here.

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We're going to spend money here.

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And, they'd have to explain right to.

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C suite folks who are responsible

for doling out the budget.

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Like, well, why, I think those are the

conversations, at least that I was a part

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of on the finance side that helped me

gravitate more towards again, the business

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side and the rev ops side to actually

focus on driving some of those outcomes

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that are important for businesses.

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Justin Norris: I've noticed, I mentioned

before that sales ops seems to be where

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some of this knowledge is located.

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And obviously there's, I'm sure there's

people out there with finance background

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in every area of rev ops, but it does

seem less common in, marketing ops, which

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is the leg of triad that I come from.

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is this your observation as, as well, or

what have you seen in dealing with people?

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Matt Volm: Yeah, A lot of, you know, Rev

Ops folks, maybe have come from the sales

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ops background because the sales, team,

especially like new business generation

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has been top of mind, for folks.

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And, that narrative is changing a lot.

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Right.

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And so, marketing sales and

especially post sales now, you know,

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more important to be connected.

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Then ever there, especially as you look

at a lot of companies that are still

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trying to drive, positive net revenue

retention, especially companies that

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have had positive NRR in the past.

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And.

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You know, I've seen those numbers

decline that has nothing to do with

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the new business you generate, right?

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It's everything to do with, you know,

how much do you expand your current

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customers and how much do you limit churn?

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And so marketing plays a big

role in that when you consider,

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well, how are we marketing new

products to, our current customers?

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Customers or, how are we making sure

that they know about the value that

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they can get from the solution, right?

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So they can add more people.

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we can get more butts in seats,

things like that, especially

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on the post sale side, as well.

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how can we make a really strong,

positive first impression when

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we implement new, customers?

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how can we make sure that we have

strong relationships and that, you

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know, we're actually delivering

value to the customer in a way that.

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they define value, right?

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Not the way that we define value

so that they do stick around.

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They continue to renew and they continue

to hopefully spend more money with us.

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So I think that's been a lot of

the focus for, folks in rev ops

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lately and why it's been changing,

moving away from these, silos, if

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you will, and I look at rev ops as.

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collection of marketing ops, sales

ops, and CS ops, you know, when you

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get started in rev ops as a company,

or if you're an early stage company,

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typically, all of those responsibilities

will typically lie with one.

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Person, right?

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Or maybe before you even have a rev

ops person, they're with the functional

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heads of each department, right?

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And then as you grow, folks become

more and more specialized, right?

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And so that's when you can still

have, dedicated marketing office

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folks and dedicated sales ops

folks and dedicated CS ops folks.

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But you still need rev ops to oversee

the collection of those things.

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I guess that's, you know, my

feedback on why things have.

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Been changing a little bit

recently and kind of how I view

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the collection of those teams

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Justin Norris: in my own role,

which is rev ops ish, I own

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marketing ops and BDR ops.

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So it's sort of multiple functions,

but not the entire spectrum.

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But, I use that sort of finance knowledge

constantly, which isn't my background.

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I'm not a finance person, but I play

one on TV, but I've absorbed a lot

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through osmosis and, I work with a lot

of like management consultant types

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who have finance backgrounds and pick

things up, but it's super powerful.

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Whether you're like talking to revenue

leaders or, making a request to finance

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to buy something and you need to make a

business case for it or thinking about

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CAC and like just making decisions, making

good recommendations, for folks that

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don't want to sort of learn it through the

hard knocks of life, the way that I have.

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What's the best way to become

more finance literate, like get

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a crash course, I guess, in that,

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Matt Volm: well, you know, one,

I'm a big believer advocate and in

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the, on the job training, right?

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So like, first step, go and talk

to your finance team, understand,

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the ins and outs of what they do.

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But then also even yourself, right?

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Start to think through the connections,

between the things that maybe you're

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responsible for in your scope and

how things would get translated on

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a, a financial statement, right?

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So, new business that you close, for

example, we talk a lot about, things like

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ARR and, uh, total contract value and deal

size, but like, Do you actually know, like

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when you close, for a deal that was closed

today or this week at your company, like,

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do you actually know when your company

will start to actually recognize revenue

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from that deal and why and how much?

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So like start to ask yourself

those questions and then figure

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out what the answers are, right?

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Like go to your finance

team and, and ask, right.

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And that's how you can understand

then why things are so important

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to actually like how you structure

some of those deals, right?

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Why the start date.

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For example, of like a subscription

is very important to when you can

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actually start to recognize revenue

and you can understand why payment

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terms, on deals and why even certain

like contractual elements, right.

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That you're willing to give on

or not give on are, so critical.

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So, that's number one.

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number two, I mean, we do have

like, even at RevOps Co op, uh, we

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actually just launched a new course.

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It's called finance for rev ops with Jeff

Ignacio, who has a finance background.

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went through business school.

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He's worked at places like Google

and Amazon and, you know, has

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been on the rev ops side for

big companies, small companies.

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And so trying to also like craft, a

bunch of that knowledge into a course

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that, like you said, people can

participate in, learn from someone who's

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been there, done that and start to.

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And understanding, but again, even

with our own courses, if you just go

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out and get like trainings, right,

but you don't actually apply any of

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those things in real life on the job,

like it's going to do nothing for you.

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So you got to have both of those things.

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So that's why I say like, do as much

as you can on the job at the company

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with the resources that you have,

and then supplement that with again,

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courses, trainings, other things that.

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You can find out there to support

and that constant feedback

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loop will be super valuable.

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Justin Norris: you know, things have

changed a lot over the past few years.

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we've gone through a decade of

quite often, very little financial

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accountability for the go to market

functions, at least like in the venture

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funded world where, you know, we were

spending millions on tech and a lot of

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it was shelf where, where we had channels

where, you know, The cost to acquire a

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customer was astronomical maybe like multi

year payback periods things that wouldn't

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really make sense Under the normal

business fundamentals It was like kind

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of like a parallel universe that wasn't

tethered to normal business realities

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and I'm Someone who went through that and

had the financial acumen to understand it

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Like what were you thinking during that

time as you kind of looked around you?

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Matt Volm: Yeah.

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I guess the biggest thing that stood

out was just the multiples that some

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companies were raising on in terms of

like revenue multiples for valuations,

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just seemed like so out of whack.

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And actually at the time that a lot of

this stuff was happening, you know, I

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was in the process of building an early

stage, software company and going out and,

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you know, like trying to raise money and

stuff myself and just seeing like some

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of the things that some other founders

were able to do with very, very little.

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yeah, it was just kind of crazy.

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Right.

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you know, I remember there's one

company who, raised money at like a

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50 X revenue multiple for, you know,

like series B, like, I remember they,

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they were at like, 4 4 million or 5

million of, ARR and raise money at,

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250 million, post money valuation, and

you're talking like early stage, right?

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Like you know, that's a

really crazy, multiple.

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And then the flip side is like, just think

about what you got to do to continue to

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get a return on, you know, That money.

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Right.

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if you, once you get to 10 million of

revenue, you can't just still be a 50 X

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multiple, you got to be something bigger.

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So, those are some of the things that

I was seeing that were kind of crazy.

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Justin Norris: Well, we have obviously

had a correction and, uh, which has been

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kind of brutal for lots of people, but I

think, opportunity from a rev ops point

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of view to be more tough minded and be

the voice of reason and start to create

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better habits, better ways of working.

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and I guess that brings us really

to the rev ops function in general.

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And I think, you know, You obviously

have a lot of thoughts on this.

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One of the, one of the things

that's really still current right

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now is, the whole debate around

should rev ops functions be unified?

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What should it be?

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Is rev ops just sales ops 2.

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0?

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and in a lot of cases, it really is.

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I look at a lot of job descriptions

cause it just, I'm curious that way.

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And you see like rev ops leader

and it only talks about sales.

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Why do you think this is still a thing?

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Matt Volm: well, one, cause it's

hard, it's hard to, especially

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if you've been operating under.

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A certain, I don't call it

like charter or structure.

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it's hard to get everyone

call it like unified or on

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the same page, from the start.

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naturally, like you got

to start somewhere though.

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you know, it's going to take time.

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but you know, I think

it's on the company to.

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Do a better job of defining what they

want and what they expect their rev

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ops, team and function, to do before

they start to just throw people at it.

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Right.

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So, and see this problem now, like even

with like people trying to apply AI as

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a technology to problems is like you

can't start with the solution, right?

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You can't be like, everyone

else is doing this whole rev ops

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thing, like we should do it too.

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and then be like, okay, well, let's

just give our sales ops person a job

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title, a rev ops, or let's go out and

hire someone that would call rev ops,

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but just have them be responsible for

the sales ops team that's backwards.

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You got to start with the problem,

That you're looking to solve, which

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in most cases at companies is the fact

that you have these silos that exist.

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You have these handoffs that occur between

these teams and that's driving a massive

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amount of inefficiency and ineffectiveness

that if corrected can dramatically improve

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your revenue without having to invest

more dollars, which is exactly what

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every company is trying to accomplish.

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So that's the problem.

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And RevOps is your solution, but you

can't just, throw RevOps at one of

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those silos and then expect it to work.

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So you really need to give it ownership

over the complete revenue engine from

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marketing to sales, to post sales.

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And, at early stage companies,

easier to do because especially as

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you're growing, a lot of times that

responsibility lies with, marketing

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ops is with the VP of marketing and

sales ops is with the VP of sales.

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And then eventually you get to a

point where, they need to offload

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that responsibility and you put it

into a dedicated person, or resource.

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I think that's where companies.

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Should start is making sure that

again, Rev Ops is the, call it

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the band that, crosses over all

of those different elements of

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marketing sales and, post sales.

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And if you don't have that set up the

right way from the beginning, then.

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Yeah, you're inevitably just

setting them up for failure.

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It's like, the same thing of, you

know, you see all these people

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out there with, CRO titles, right?

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Chief Revenue Officer titles.

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And at the end of the day, they're

really just glorified VPs of sales.

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that's not doing them any good.

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that's not doing anyone any good

because as we know, like revenue is

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not something that is only generated

from New customers and from new logos.

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It is something that you generate from,

keeping your current customers around

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selling more to your current customers,

and then adding some new customers onto

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that base, every single month, every

single quarter, that requires efforts

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from marketing sales and post sales.

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Not just sales.

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Justin Norris: I was in an interesting

discussion on LinkedIn yesterday.

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about this topic and the counter argument

to the unified rev ops, solution,

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which I've heard many times before is

that, you know, then the teams are no

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longer very accountable or responsive

to their functional leadership.

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And eventually either you end up with

like shadow ops, like emerging, kind

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of bubbling back up within one of the

functional teams, they sort of break the

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unified team apart again, because the

CMO doesn't feel like they're getting.

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I think that obviously

does happen, can happen.

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I don't think it's an inevitability.

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have you seen those

sorts of issues crop up?

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And what do you think

is like the root cause?

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Matt Volm: You know, I'm one for,

um, generally hit strong bias for

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action and like, just have people

go out and like, and do, and,

300

: 00:16:52

centralization just for the sake of

centralization is like something that.

301

: 00:16:56

doesn't make sense like just so that

you know, one team can like call it

302

: 00:17:00

have the power but at the end of the day

like again start with the problem and

303

: 00:17:06

for every business out there right now.

304

: 00:17:09

The way that you go to market and drive

revenue, which again, revenue is single

305

: 00:17:15

most important metric typically for

any company on the face of the planet.

306

: 00:17:19

And every company out there wants

to grow their revenue, right?

307

: 00:17:22

Like this is where the

finance piece comes in again.

308

: 00:17:24

And so it's like, well,

how do you do that?

309

: 00:17:26

How do you accomplish that?

310

: 00:17:27

And way back in the day, you

could accomplish revenue growth by

311

: 00:17:32

teams operating in silos, right?

312

: 00:17:34

Like they didn't necessarily

need to, to work together.

313

: 00:17:37

remember back when, SAS used to just

be the standard, per seat model, right.

314

: 00:17:42

Pricing like, super, basic and simple.

315

: 00:17:45

And now you've got.

316

: 00:17:47

Platform fees and usage based, and

you've got different markets and

317

: 00:17:53

you've got different territories.

318

: 00:17:54

You've got product led, elements.

319

: 00:17:57

You've got sales led, you've

got hybrid approaches.

320

: 00:18:00

You've got, expansion revenue that

you're trying to drive, right?

321

: 00:18:04

Like, so the sheer fact is that like.

322

: 00:18:07

teams need to work together in

order to drive the same outcome

323

: 00:18:10

that has always been important.

324

: 00:18:13

And so if you don't have someone focused

on again, the elements and like the

325

: 00:18:18

handoffs that ultimately occur, then.

326

: 00:18:22

You're again, you're wasting

a massive amount of resources.

327

: 00:18:25

You're being more inefficient

and more ineffective.

328

: 00:18:28

You are spending more money to

accomplish the same thing that

329

: 00:18:30

you otherwise would need to.

330

: 00:18:33

So again, I think it's about

defining the role, giving the right

331

: 00:18:36

responsibilities and like giving that

person, power and accountability, right?

332

: 00:18:40

So like holding them to the right

success metrics and then making sure

333

: 00:18:44

that they report up to the right people

who's going to hold them accountable.

334

: 00:18:47

Yeah.

335

: 00:18:48

Justin Norris: I wonder if it's about

like the orientation of the people on

336

: 00:18:52

the team as well because like if you're

leading a rev ops team and your functional

337

: 00:19:00

stakeholders don't feel that you're being

responsive enough to the point where

338

: 00:19:04

like they're not they're unhappy with

that there must be something broken in

339

: 00:19:09

how you're making those decisions about

prioritization about what you work on.

340

: 00:19:13

Matt Volm: Yeah.

341

: 00:19:14

you know, one of the things, right, that

I've done in the past, on the RevOps side

342

: 00:19:18

is, one, openly communicate about the

things that you are prioritizing and why,

343

: 00:19:24

for me, I've always started with OKRs or

like goals, objectives of, the company,

344

: 00:19:29

and then kind of work backwards to the

things that, uh, Myself and my team should

345

: 00:19:34

be focused on for any given time period.

346

: 00:19:37

And then when it relates to those

specific projects that, pop up, or those

347

: 00:19:41

things that you can work on, whether

they're marketing specific, sales

348

: 00:19:44

specific, post sales specific, you kind

of weigh those all against your OKRs,

349

: 00:19:49

the things that you want to accomplish.

350

: 00:19:51

And.

351

: 00:19:52

by framing things that way and always

having a call it a like a discussion on

352

: 00:19:58

why things are getting prioritized, right?

353

: 00:20:00

Like, that's how you can drive

conversations and come to

354

: 00:20:04

consensus on like, why is this

thing more important than that?

355

: 00:20:07

Right?

356

: 00:20:08

as opposed to just saying, like,

oh, no, like, The sales thing is

357

: 00:20:12

getting, prioritized right now, or no,

this, this marketing specific thing

358

: 00:20:16

is getting prioritized right now.

359

: 00:20:18

You know, if you have those company

goals to tie things back to, and then

360

: 00:20:23

again, if someone comes to you as like,

Hey, you know, I think this is more

361

: 00:20:26

important than this and be like, okay,

well, you know, right now, like we agreed

362

: 00:20:29

at the beginning of the quarter that.

363

: 00:20:31

This particular objective, maybe it's

revenue growth, maybe it's reducing churn,

364

: 00:20:35

right, whatever is like, that's going

to be the main thing we're focused on.

365

: 00:20:38

So that's why things are

currently structured this way.

366

: 00:20:40

You're proposing we do things differently.

367

: 00:20:42

why?

368

: 00:20:43

what should we shuffle around?

369

: 00:20:45

And, that is a much different conversation

than obviously just saying like, no,

370

: 00:20:49

we're going to do this instead of this.

371

: 00:20:51

so it's all about how you frame

it and communicate things.

372

: 00:20:54

And then, put the challenge back on the,

you know, the person that, I don't know,

373

: 00:20:58

might be giving you pushback, right, of

like, ask them for what they would do.

374

: 00:21:01

and a lot of times that can produce,

you know, solid discussion as well.

375

: 00:21:06

be open, transparent, have a dialogue

with things and get people involved

376

: 00:21:10

in the decision making process.

377

: 00:21:12

Justin Norris: It'll turn now to rev

ops co-op this isn't your first company,

378

: 00:21:16

you're multi-time founders, I alluded to.

379

: 00:21:19

and then at a certain point in time

you decided it was a good idea to

380

: 00:21:23

create a company that was based on,

you know, providing these resources in

381

: 00:21:26

this community to the rev ops field.

382

: 00:21:29

Uh, maybe just talk us

through the genesis of that.

383

: 00:21:31

Like what niche did you see that,

that you thought needed to be

384

: 00:21:34

filled and what led you there?

385

: 00:21:36

Matt Volm: so first I was a VP of

BizOps at, early stage software

386

: 00:21:40

company that was actually building

OKR software and I was, one of the

387

: 00:21:45

first, 10 or 15 employees there.

388

: 00:21:46

And, when I first started again,

responsible for BizOps and.

389

: 00:21:51

That meant they gave me RevOps

because again, there was like

390

: 00:21:54

no one else there to do it.

391

: 00:21:55

So that was the, my first kind of

foray into the, the RevOps space.

392

: 00:21:58

And then as this company grew, I

saw RevOps as something that was

393

: 00:22:03

taking off a function that was,

getting, getting Deployed and built

394

: 00:22:06

within a lot of different companies.

395

: 00:22:09

And so I was like, Hey, I think, this rev

ops thing is going to be here to stay.

396

: 00:22:13

And with any new job function,

you know, I was like, I think

397

: 00:22:16

they're going to need probably some

software to do their job better.

398

: 00:22:19

And so I, started a company, and

raised pre seed and seed on the

399

: 00:22:23

idea of building rev ops software.

400

: 00:22:26

and the product we were

building was called funnel IQ.

401

: 00:22:29

We were.

402

: 00:22:29

Thinking you could kind of productize

these and and go to market analytics and

403

: 00:22:34

so raise precedence seat on that idea.

404

: 00:22:36

And one of the things we did early on

was we wanted to build a community for

405

: 00:22:40

folks in Rev Ops as part of our early

go to market efforts for funnel IQ

406

: 00:22:44

because we were like, this will be a way

to deliver value to people in Rev Ops.

407

: 00:22:48

They'll become aware of our product,

we'll be able to, keep a pulse on what's

408

: 00:22:53

important to them, what problems they

have, and deliver a whole lot of value.

409

: 00:22:57

In the meantime, through So that was

why we started RebOps Co op and then,

410

: 00:23:04

you know, typical startup fashion

with FunnelIQ, we had a bunch of

411

: 00:23:07

different iterations of the product.

412

: 00:23:10

We brought it to market.

413

: 00:23:11

We had some paying customers, but

nothing where we had product market fit.

414

: 00:23:15

And so, uh, it was about two, two

and a half years ago where we kind

415

: 00:23:20

of looked at things, we were like,

Hey, let's sunset the funnel IQ

416

: 00:23:23

product and instead just focus on the

community as, uh, our main business.

417

: 00:23:29

And so that's kind of been,

the focus for us ever since.

418

: 00:23:32

and so, yeah, it's been, you know,

I don't know what three and a

419

: 00:23:35

half, four years in the making now.

420

: 00:23:37

And, originally started thinking

that we were going to build

421

: 00:23:40

a rev ops software company.

422

: 00:23:42

And now we've got, uh, RebOps

423

: 00:23:44

Justin Norris: So it was essentially

sort of a marketing strategy

424

: 00:23:48

for your other company that

turned into a thing of its own.

425

: 00:23:53

Matt Volm: Yeah, very

426

: 00:23:54

Justin Norris: Community is,

it's a difficult play we were

427

: 00:23:56

mentioning before the show.

428

: 00:23:58

I had a similar conversation with

Mike Rizzo, on the marketing ops

429

: 00:24:02

community side and I'm curious if

your experience has been similar,

430

: 00:24:06

but like there's something kind of

fragile and sort of magical about it.

431

: 00:24:11

People coalescing in the

community emerging out of that.

432

: 00:24:15

You can't really force it.

433

: 00:24:16

You can encourage it, but people

have to play along What was your

434

: 00:24:20

experience trying to get that to happen?

435

: 00:24:23

Was it totally organic?

436

: 00:24:24

Did you engineer it in some way?

437

: 00:24:26

Matt Volm: Yeah.

438

: 00:24:27

When we first got started, you know,

never started a community before.

439

: 00:24:31

And so I was like, what does it even mean?

440

: 00:24:33

what is a community?

441

: 00:24:34

Our starting point is we're going to

have, if you want to join our community.

442

: 00:24:38

We'll invite you to our slack group and

we'll send you our newsletter that was

443

: 00:24:41

it and so we started to invite people to

join and Originally that our focus in the

444

: 00:24:47

slack group at least was trying to again

encourage engagement drive Conversations

445

: 00:24:52

just get people chatting As our community

grew and we started to invite more and

446

: 00:24:56

more people, eventually your efforts start

to shift from driving engagement to now

447

: 00:25:01

moderating the engagement, that's there.

448

: 00:25:04

And like you said, it's one of those

things, it's like hard to put a pin

449

: 00:25:08

in how to do that stuff exactly.

450

: 00:25:11

You know, it comes down to just inviting

the right people, having a core group

451

: 00:25:16

that will help you be engaged early on.

452

: 00:25:18

And then, like any product, if it's a

software product, if it's a services

453

: 00:25:23

product, in this case, if it's community

as your product is, stay like hyper

454

: 00:25:29

focused or, the more narrow, the better.

455

: 00:25:32

And so for us, it was Rev Ops, right?

456

: 00:25:34

It's like, all we do is Rev Ops.

457

: 00:25:36

Like, if you want to talk

about sales development.

458

: 00:25:40

Or, marketing or, finance, right?

459

: 00:25:43

Like you're welcome, to.

460

: 00:25:44

And if you're into rev ops and you're

in one of those areas, like you can also

461

: 00:25:47

join our community, but all we're going

to talk about is revenue operations stuff.

462

: 00:25:51

So if you don't like that, you're

probably going to get bored.

463

: 00:25:54

pretty quickly, right?

464

: 00:25:55

If you're looking for, like,

conversations on, the best cold

465

: 00:26:00

call scripts, you should probably

go to, like, some other community.

466

: 00:26:03

But if you want to learn how to,

like, Align your, outbound process

467

: 00:26:06

with the tech stack that you have

and like build seamless integrations

468

: 00:26:10

and, you know, do stuff like that.

469

: 00:26:11

Like we got you there.

470

: 00:26:14

So that's the other thing that we

did early on was just trying to say,

471

: 00:26:17

you know, really focused on, content

and conversations around that topic.

472

: 00:26:23

And that kind of helped us get started.

473

: 00:26:25

Justin Norris: What does success look

like for you as you continue to grow this?

474

: 00:26:29

Obviously on a financial and business

side, obviously success means making

475

: 00:26:32

money, but in terms of the value or the

impact that you're delivering, walk us

476

: 00:26:38

maybe like two, three years down the road.

477

: 00:26:40

What do you see?

478

: 00:26:42

Matt Volm: the biggest thing that,

and even like when I set out to

479

: 00:26:46

start the RevOp software, business

is like, you know, just wanting

480

: 00:26:50

to feel like you make an impact.

481

: 00:26:52

Someone, you know, something, maybe

a group of people if you're lucky.

482

: 00:26:56

And so the, best feedback that I get,

like at our conference, a couple of

483

: 00:27:01

weeks ago, met someone and they were

like, Hey, I just wanted to say like,

484

: 00:27:05

thank you for building the community

because I was laid off and, didn't know

485

: 00:27:10

what to do and ended up connecting with

some people in the community and that's

486

: 00:27:14

what led me to get My current job.

487

: 00:27:17

And I've heard that from people a bunch.

488

: 00:27:20

And so if things like imploded tomorrow,

and there's no business left, like just

489

: 00:27:26

knowing that I've been able to make an

impact like that with people where it's

490

: 00:27:30

like, Hey, I created something that

helped these people find new jobs that.

491

: 00:27:35

Led them to continue to

support their families.

492

: 00:27:38

Like if someone landed a new client.

493

: 00:27:41

landed a new job, had an impact

on one person, I'm happy.

494

: 00:27:46

So as long as we can continue to do

that, and have a, business around

495

: 00:27:50

it, that's the big thing for me.

496

: 00:27:52

Justin Norris: You mentioned a few

times the other companies that you

497

: 00:27:54

started and you wrote a, I thought it

was a really great article actually,

498

: 00:27:58

about your first company, Tally, that

you started and like that journey and,

499

: 00:28:02

uh, and eventually winding it down.

500

: 00:28:04

I'll include a link to

it in the show notes.

501

: 00:28:07

I'm just curious that experience,

how has that shaped your approach?

502

: 00:28:11

Has it kind of made you avoid any bumps

in the road that you hit last time or

503

: 00:28:16

what does that perspective look like?

504

: 00:28:17

Matt Volm: Well, I wish I could say that

I did not make the same mistake twice.

505

: 00:28:21

but that's certainly not the case.

506

: 00:28:22

I think the biggest thing that, my

first startup taught me was that,

507

: 00:28:27

quote unquote, failure is okay.

508

: 00:28:29

especially like when you go out and

you start to take risks, like starting

509

: 00:28:34

a company or working at a startup or

trying to get a new job in a field

510

: 00:28:40

that you haven't worked before.

511

: 00:28:42

Like, those are all new things, right?

512

: 00:28:44

either you think you want

or you think will work.

513

: 00:28:47

And typically you have a pretty good track

record of success in the past, right?

514

: 00:28:52

Of doing well.

515

: 00:28:53

And my first startup taught me that,

like, when it comes to startups, nearly

516

: 00:28:58

every time, like things aren't going to

work, You basically need to be incredibly

517

: 00:29:02

stubborn to be able to just like, try

something new that you know is like

518

: 00:29:07

90 percent probably not gonna work and

we'll like smack you right in the face

519

: 00:29:11

and you might fall down and you just

got to get up and try the next thing.

520

: 00:29:15

Like that's basically

what starting a company.

521

: 00:29:18

Is like, and I don't know why, but I've

been doing that for the last, like what?

522

: 00:29:22

Seven years of my life, basically.

523

: 00:29:24

And so the first startup taught me

that and taught me that, some things

524

: 00:29:29

don't work, but if you do things the

right way, like the only real failure

525

: 00:29:34

is if you go through that and you

don't learn something along the way.

526

: 00:29:39

And so even with that first startup,

for example, the first investor.

527

: 00:29:43

In that first startup where I

obviously lost all their money

528

: 00:29:46

because I wound that company down.

529

: 00:29:48

They were also the first

investor in my next startup.

530

: 00:29:52

And so they invested in me again.

531

: 00:29:54

And there were plenty of other people

that I met along the way, during that

532

: 00:29:58

first, kind of startup journey, that,

have played a big part in things today.

533

: 00:30:04

And so, for me, like that's the biggest

learning, like the journey Is the reward.

534

: 00:30:09

it's not whatever that

finite outcome is at the end.

535

: 00:30:13

And for me, at least right,

I've shut down companies.

536

: 00:30:16

I've been fired from places before.

537

: 00:30:18

Like if you don't experience some of

those things in your life, then you're

538

: 00:30:20

probably not taking enough risk.

539

: 00:30:23

And I think that's the thing that I

learned is like experiencing those

540

: 00:30:27

things and going through them is okay.

541

: 00:30:30

You learn a lot from it.

542

: 00:30:31

You get a lot of great stories.

543

: 00:30:32

From it in the process too.

544

: 00:30:34

And people typically

like all of those things.

545

: 00:30:36

And so it's actually not going

to hurt you, but it'll help you.

546

: 00:30:40

Justin Norris: And you've been doing

this for seven years, as you've said,

547

: 00:30:43

is there a certain, I don't mean to use

this word in its, negative sense, but

548

: 00:30:47

like an addictive quality to it, like a

rush maybe that it brings or what, what

549

: 00:30:52

keeps you coming back to this process

despite knowing that you're going to like

550

: 00:30:56

step on rake after rake and get knocked

in the face and have to get up again.

551

: 00:31:00

Matt Volm: Yeah.

552

: 00:31:00

For me, it was having a

direct connection between.

553

: 00:31:04

The things that I do on a daily basis

and the outcomes that they drive.

554

: 00:31:09

So before starting any companies,

that was always the thing that I

555

: 00:31:13

think was missing for me was feeling

like, working at a large organization,

556

: 00:31:18

couldn't see what I was doing on a

daily basis and how that impacted.

557

: 00:31:22

Like the business, right?

558

: 00:31:23

Like the results now, those

things are very obvious, right?

559

: 00:31:27

Like I close a deal or the team puts

on a conference, it's very clear to

560

: 00:31:32

see like the things that I do on a

daily basis and a direct connection

561

: 00:31:36

to the outcomes that they drive.

562

: 00:31:39

And so that's the thing

for me that call it hooked.

563

: 00:31:42

just being able to do that.

564

: 00:31:44

Learning something new every day as well.

565

: 00:31:46

Like you never get bored, you

know, a variety of different

566

: 00:31:49

things to do on a, daily basis.

567

: 00:31:52

And so those are all the

things that I love about it.

568

: 00:31:55

And, think why I've.

569

: 00:31:56

Continue to come back time and time

570

: 00:31:59

Justin Norris: community based businesses

they're, bit different in the sense that

571

: 00:32:02

like your product can be many things.

572

: 00:32:04

And I listed some of them in the intro.

573

: 00:32:06

There's like all the different

resources, but ultimately, you're

574

: 00:32:09

needing to get, a lot of people to

pay for something that could be a

575

: 00:32:14

mixture of access to other people,

access to knowledge, access to events.

576

: 00:32:20

How do you think about like your

product strategy from that point

577

: 00:32:23

of view and finding like, what does

product market fit look like when

578

: 00:32:25

you're a community led business?

579

: 00:32:27

Matt Volm: Yeah.

580

: 00:32:27

same sort of evaluation, criteria or

way that you would, approach things

581

: 00:32:32

if, it was a software business as well.

582

: 00:32:35

Right.

583

: 00:32:35

Like I mentioned, we started with

a newsletter and a Slack group

584

: 00:32:39

and our newsletter wasn't even

content that we were creating.

585

: 00:32:42

it was literally just a sub stack

every week I'd just go out to And

586

: 00:32:46

I would try to find like Rev Ops

content for people, LinkedIn posts

587

: 00:32:50

and tweets and, other things, right?

588

: 00:32:52

And then I basically just put them into

a newsletter and I'd send that out.

589

: 00:32:55

And we've just evolved on all of those

things and have added to like our program

590

: 00:33:01

offering based on what we've heard from.

591

: 00:33:04

People in the community, right?

592

: 00:33:06

So, you know, we eventually we started

creating our own content because

593

: 00:33:09

we saw that, you know, there wasn't

a lot of, unique, relevant content

594

: 00:33:12

getting created for folks and rev up.

595

: 00:33:14

So now we've got our blog posts,

and then we started doing all of our

596

: 00:33:17

own digital events because, wasn't a

platform for kind of experts right in

597

: 00:33:22

this kind of new field to be able to

share their knowledge with everyone.

598

: 00:33:26

We added.

599

: 00:33:27

Courses on top of that, because

people wanted more formalized,

600

: 00:33:31

ways to learn from some of the

thought leaders that are out there.

601

: 00:33:34

We added in person events because

Covid eventually went away and

602

: 00:33:38

people were like, Hey, I've been,

operating with these people online

603

: 00:33:42

through LinkedIn over zoom, right?

604

: 00:33:44

For how long?

605

: 00:33:44

Like, I really want to get out

and just Meet people in person.

606

: 00:33:47

And then again, the conference was another

evolution of that of like, let's kind

607

: 00:33:51

of package that stuff up into, multi day

event and experience for folks in rev up.

608

: 00:33:57

So I've just kind of built,

you know, stuff along the way.

609

: 00:34:02

Certainly like, tried things, right?

610

: 00:34:03

Like some versions of courses and

other things that haven't worked.

611

: 00:34:07

And then, learned about the

stuff that, that does work.

612

: 00:34:11

but it all comes down again to the

people and the members that you have

613

: 00:34:15

and doing things that are relevant

for them, which again is where like

614

: 00:34:17

the focus and being like more narrow.

615

: 00:34:20

Really is helpful there.

616

: 00:34:22

cause again, for us,

it's in the name, right?

617

: 00:34:23

Rev Ops Co op.

618

: 00:34:24

Like we are all about revenue

operations and not about anything else.

619

: 00:34:28

And so that has really been where

we've focused and then just trying

620

: 00:34:31

to expand those different programs

and offerings that we can do around.

621

: 00:34:36

Justin Norris: And communities become a

big strategy for some, companies today.

622

: 00:34:41

like what you started off doing, like

where the community was really just a

623

: 00:34:45

means of acquiring or engaging, customers.

624

: 00:34:48

What do you think now about, like,

vendor led communities as opposed to,

625

: 00:34:52

purpose built communities that are,

the destination in and of themselves?

626

: 00:34:55

Do you think they can work, or

what are the, pitfalls there?

627

: 00:34:58

Matt Volm: the community stuff

was definitely, a hot space

628

: 00:35:01

before the market shifted.

629

: 00:35:03

like even we saw a lot of

community initiatives that

630

: 00:35:07

companies go to the wayside once.

631

: 00:35:10

Like layoffs and stuff started

happening a lot of times.

632

: 00:35:12

Like those community teams

were the first ones to go.

633

: 00:35:15

So I think the main thing,

I mean, even with us, right?

634

: 00:35:18

Like when we started our community,

it was, you know, RevOps co op,

635

: 00:35:21

a community by funnel IQ, but we

tried to keep it very separate from

636

: 00:35:26

the product that we were building

because we wanted to make sure that.

637

: 00:35:30

There was an element of trust there,

and that existed within the community.

638

: 00:35:35

And like you said, vendor led or like

vendor sponsored communities, can very

639

: 00:35:39

much work if approached that way, where

you try to look at the community kind

640

: 00:35:45

of like we talked about before as a

separate product that you're offering, and

641

: 00:35:49

really lead with value, and, , we have.

642

: 00:35:52

Sponsors and brands companies involved

in our community and our call it our

643

: 00:35:58

partnership rules guidelines, are

very much aligned to that of like,

644

: 00:36:01

hey, like, you know, for example,

like, if you're quote a path is

645

: 00:36:04

one of our partners there in the

compensation, incentive management space.

646

: 00:36:08

Right?

647

: 00:36:08

So they have like, tons of knowledge

on that category, which is very

648

: 00:36:11

relevant to our community members.

649

: 00:36:13

And they do a really great

job of sharing that knowledge.

650

: 00:36:16

On a regular basis and helping our

members in that area and never bringing

651

: 00:36:22

anything up with their products because

they want to lead with the expertise.

652

: 00:36:27

And so I think companies that

decide to build their own, call it

653

: 00:36:30

native community, can accomplish.

654

: 00:36:33

The same thing, but the main thing is it

can be hard, like the whole attribution,

655

: 00:36:39

like, then you start to get into, like,

attribution and like all this other

656

: 00:36:42

stuff of like, what's the value there?

657

: 00:36:44

like any other marketing program, you

gotta look at things collectively.

658

: 00:36:47

Like, how much revenue did

we close from the community?

659

: 00:36:51

That's like saying, I don't know, you're,

you're just never going to get it.

660

: 00:36:54

You're never going to get there.

661

: 00:36:55

But if you look at.

662

: 00:36:57

How many people are

engaged in the community?

663

: 00:37:00

how much do they align with our I.

664

: 00:37:03

C.

665

: 00:37:04

P.

666

: 00:37:04

Our core persona?

667

: 00:37:05

how many customers do we have in the

community that are now also talking to

668

: 00:37:09

other people who aren't customers, right?

669

: 00:37:10

Like that's where you get

tons and tons of value.

670

: 00:37:14

So it's more about measuring.

671

: 00:37:15

Success of your community efforts

in the right way as opposed to

672

: 00:37:18

like not measuring it at all.

673

: 00:37:19

I'm, definitely not saying that again

finance person like you got to have you

674

: 00:37:23

got to have some metrics to some measure

But just make sure you're measuring it

675

: 00:37:26

Justin Norris: Totally agree.

676

: 00:37:27

And we have a community, the company

where I work, our audience is mainly like

677

: 00:37:32

learning and development professionals.

678

: 00:37:33

So the community is targeted them.

679

: 00:37:36

And, I think overall we've, we've done a

good job at like viewing it in the right

680

: 00:37:41

way, but I have seen it's, it's easy to

slip into like, well, Like, where are

681

: 00:37:45

the opportunities or, you know, you might

have a salesperson that wants to look at

682

: 00:37:48

it like, shooting fish in a barrel and,

prospect like, and that's not the way

683

: 00:37:53

that you need to go, but it, it really

does take, a lot of almost unlearning

684

: 00:37:57

of certain modes of thought that like,

all right, we did this thing and now

685

: 00:38:01

it should be producing this result

in a kind of linear A to B fashion.

686

: 00:38:06

Like it doesn't really work that way.

687

: 00:38:07

Matt Volm: yeah.

688

: 00:38:08

And we've, seen it a lot too, with even

some of our own partners who have, like

689

: 00:38:11

spent a lot of time in our community,

just deploying their expertise.

690

: 00:38:16

And then one of the things that they've

even just started to do is as they

691

: 00:38:19

have inbound, coming in, or they're

having some of these sales conversations

692

: 00:38:23

is even just like talking to people

about, well, Where'd you hear about us?

693

: 00:38:27

Or how do you learn about our solution?

694

: 00:38:29

Right?

695

: 00:38:29

And a lot of times folks are

bringing up the community, right?

696

: 00:38:32

They're bringing up RevOps co op, and

it's because they're in there on a regular

697

: 00:38:38

basis doing digital events, other things

with us that on, categories that are very

698

: 00:38:42

helpful and useful to folks in RevOps and

that cements them as a thought leader.

699

: 00:38:47

In their space, the

category expert, right?

700

: 00:38:49

So when the time inevitably comes for

someone to look for a CPQ solution or

701

: 00:38:54

to look for, software that can automate

their compensation and commissions, right?

702

: 00:38:58

Like who do you think is

going to be top of mind?

703

: 00:39:01

that's where, the business value can be.

704

: 00:39:04

Justin Norris: Maybe we'll just close

with what's next for RevOps and I'd

705

: 00:39:09

love to hear your take, given where

you're sitting, looking at all these

706

: 00:39:12

conversations, seeing all sorts of

different RevOps professionals, different

707

: 00:39:15

companies, different sizes, what are the

trends that you see emerging today for

708

: 00:39:19

where RevOps is adding value and where

do you feel like teams need to maybe

709

: 00:39:23

level up their game or add new skills

or change their approach to continue

710

: 00:39:28

to add a lot of value going forward?

711

: 00:39:30

Matt Volm: well, definitely.

712

: 00:39:31

I mentioned it earlier, focusing on the,

again, the connection, across the revenue

713

: 00:39:36

engine, especially the post sales side.

714

: 00:39:38

and how you're setting your customer

success team up for success, to, maintain

715

: 00:39:44

those relationships, to drive those

renewals, to make a positive first

716

: 00:39:47

impression with implementation, those

things are all Super, super critical

717

: 00:39:53

and actually seeing, RevOps folks focus

more and more on what's happening.

718

: 00:39:58

Post sale, is definitely one big trend.

719

: 00:40:02

The other thing, I've also seen, some

people, you know, I don't know if

720

: 00:40:05

complain is the right word, but like

talk about again, like RevOps just

721

: 00:40:07

being like sales ops, And then, you

know, some folks are like, so let's,

722

: 00:40:13

so instead of calling it a rev ops,

let's call it like go to market ops.

723

: 00:40:15

a different name.

724

: 00:40:16

Isn't going to do anything for us here.

725

: 00:40:18

It gets back to like the

thing you brought up, right.

726

: 00:40:21

Of like these companies that are

hiring for folks in rev ops or making

727

: 00:40:24

these job descriptions and then just

giving them sales ops responsibilities.

728

: 00:40:28

Like That's the thing.

729

: 00:40:29

So like stop doing

things backwards, right?

730

: 00:40:32

Like start with the problem, then

move on to the solution and make sure

731

: 00:40:35

that you're empowering your RevOps

team from the very, very beginning.

732

: 00:40:40

And then the last thing I'll

mention is, , I think with a lot of

733

: 00:40:42

things, uh, you know, I mentioned I

worked at an OKR software company.

734

: 00:40:46

RevOps is no different.

735

: 00:40:48

Typically, like , those ideas,

, start with the more progressive.

736

: 00:40:52

Software technology companies, right?

737

: 00:40:55

Like, okay, ours started with

tech companies, you know, then

738

: 00:40:58

eventually, grew from their rev ops.

739

: 00:41:00

Very similar.

740

: 00:41:01

Started heavily in technology companies.

741

: 00:41:05

And even within our community, , in

the early days, we saw, about

742

: 00:41:09

80 percent of our members that

worked in software technology.

743

: 00:41:13

And I just ran the numbers.

744

: 00:41:15

again, you know, we've been

adding about 100 new members to

745

: 00:41:18

our community every single week.

746

: 00:41:20

We have 13, plus people

that are in there now.

747

: 00:41:23

as we've grown, that number has actually

gone down from 80 percent to about 63%.

748

: 00:41:28

Now.

749

: 00:41:29

So what that's telling me is that Rev Ops

is continuing to grow, but it is one of

750

: 00:41:34

those functions that is continuing to grow

in a lot of other industries and verticals

751

: 00:41:39

outside of software and technology.

752

: 00:41:41

So those are the two biggest

things that I've seen is.

753

: 00:41:44

The growth of RevOps as a

profession continues, especially

754

: 00:41:47

outside of software tech.

755

: 00:41:48

And then the focus of the role is

definitely driving more towards the

756

: 00:41:54

end to end spectrum, and especially

things that are happening post sales,

757

: 00:41:57

not just focus on new logo acquisition.

758

: 00:42:00

Justin Norris: in a lot of the JDs

that I look at, especially at the

759

: 00:42:03

upper end, like more executive end

of the spectrum, I see more and

760

: 00:42:07

more the incorporation of strategy.

761

: 00:42:09

Like yes, you're going to own the tech

and yes, you're going to do the deal

762

: 00:42:13

desk and comp planning and all that sort

of, Administrative type of stuff, not

763

: 00:42:18

that it's unimportant in that sense,

but it's, more of like the operating

764

: 00:42:21

rhythm, but almost always the lead.

765

: 00:42:23

And now I'm, seeing is, go to market

strategy, thinking segmentation, things

766

: 00:42:28

that maybe you would think like that, the

go to market leadership, like sales or

767

: 00:42:32

marketing would have owned in the past.

768

: 00:42:35

A lot of times it's not maybe

either sitting with rev ops or

769

: 00:42:37

at least rev ops is contributing

to it in a significant way.

770

: 00:42:40

Do you see that happening too?

771

: 00:42:41

Is that an important trend?

772

: 00:42:43

Matt Volm: yeah, for sure.

773

: 00:42:44

And I think it gets to, when you do it

right, and you're especially focused

774

: 00:42:50

on the handoffs that occur and all

of those conversion points, right?

775

: 00:42:54

Like, you know, those are

opportunities for fall off, right?

776

: 00:42:57

And that's where, by having RevOps

focus on those pieces, you can drive

777

: 00:43:01

a lot of efficiency and effectiveness.

778

: 00:43:04

And again, like, if you improve a

conversion top of funnel, like, you know,

779

: 00:43:08

That is just going to compound in value

as things go through all else held true.

780

: 00:43:12

And so the best way to have, again, a

unified plan and strategy is to have

781

: 00:43:19

someone like RevOps own that and drive it.

782

: 00:43:23

And then also make sure that obviously,

like the activities, the inputs that all

783

: 00:43:27

of those different elements that tactics,

projects, things that those different

784

: 00:43:30

teams are doing are aligned, to that plan.

785

: 00:43:33

but yeah, they have a great bird's

eye view of the end to end spectrum.

786

: 00:43:37

And so I think that's a critical piece.

787

: 00:43:39

Justin Norris: This is super interesting.

788

: 00:43:40

It was great to talk about your

journey here, your insights, Matt.

789

: 00:43:43

Thank you so much for

coming on the show today.

790

: 00:43:45

Matt Volm: Yeah.

791

: 00:43:46

Thanks, Justin.

792

: 00:43:47

I appreciate it.