Taking the Pain out of GTM Systems Enablement - Dan Giovacchini

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

You know, the classic way of describing rev ops

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is people process and platforms.

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And while that may not be a

perfect formulation, it's a

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pretty accurate description.

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Of what we do, what they don't tell you

in RevOp school is that the people pillar

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is by far the hardest one to manage

building and systems, creating processes,

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you know, those are challenging, but

they're ultimately rewarding things to do.

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You get a big payoff at the end

when there's a finished product

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and you have a lot of control.

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On the other hand, getting other

people to actually do something is

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a whole other story, and it can be.

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Maddening to work with revenue teams that

seem determined to do anything but follow

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the process that you've designed I'm, not

suggesting anyone is out to get us, but

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it does point to the fact that enablement

Is a huge part of our job and rev ops.

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And it often doesn't work very well.

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We create documents that no one reads.

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They sit in knowledge

bases that no one visits.

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We spend our time responding to

Slack messages from confused users

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or sending chatter reminders, asking

people to just please follow the

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process for like the 500th time.

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And I may be exaggerating a bit

to make a point, but not by much.

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So today's guest thinks that there is

a better way to do software enablement.

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And he helped found a company

to deliver on that promise.

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It's called Tango.

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And our guest is the

company's COO, Dan Jovachini.

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Dan, so glad to have you here.

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Daniel Giovacchini: Great to be here,

Justin, and, really well articulated

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opening on, a lot of the challenges I

think that, you know, folks face out

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there with, with change in management,

and that's exactly what we spend

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most of our days thinking about.

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Justin Norris: I spend a lot of my day

dealing with those exact challenges.

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So they hit close to home.

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and I'm wondering, Dan, as I was looking

through your background, I saw you

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spent about seven years in the VC world.

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So before we pivot into Tango and

enablement and all that, I want to

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be opportunistic and just get your

perspective, putting your VC hat on

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again for a minute, what is going on?

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You know, we've experienced

a fairly strange.

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reset in the market over the past few

years, it's impacting a lot of SAS

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companies, things have really changed.

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The old playbooks don't

work the same anymore.

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What are you thinking about

as, as kind of a founder?

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What should other founders be focused

on to survive and thrive in this

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environment and that kind of thing?

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Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah,

it's a great question.

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I mean, you for so long, it seemed

like there was finally a sense of

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normal and bull market and, you

know, it was just bigger fundraising

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rounds happening year after year.

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And, and then suddenly we,

we hit this new bear market.

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and some ways.

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Tightening and economic slowdown.

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it's part of what precipitated that,

but it was also, we were probably just

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overheating on, a number of areas of,

of software spend in particular, and,

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uh, markets that kind of founders

and VCs both looked at and said, Oh,

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we've seen this happen somewhere else.

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And why can't it happen here?

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Like the Uber for, for X playbook

or something for every market.

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And, kind of where that got

us, I think is starting to.

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Really get back to me.

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Think about the customer,

what are their organizational

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level challenges and problems?

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And, you know, what are their operating

hurdles that, that they need to get

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passed and no matter if you're a founder,

your company, you know, working on

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a, an end user focused tool and the

marketing stack, or if you're something

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that helps, you know, org wide for HR.

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You really all have to tie back to

some organizational level initiative.

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And if you can't map to a

customer OKR, you should stop

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and think about how you can.

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and so, you know, I think that, slow down

in funding and, difficult fundraising

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environment kind of 2021, uh, 2023 started

to reinforce probably some healthier

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innovation behaviors and healthier,

really like product marketing and sales

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pitches from, from founders and companies.

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And, then I has obviously just

become the theme of the moment and.

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It's, there's never been a better time

to be insanely curious about what's

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possible, if you're an operator within a

company and, and all these new tools and

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technology that's available, or if you're,

you're a vendor yourself or a founder or

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VC and think about your product and, and

your longterm, value creation path, right?

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at the same time, that's a lot of noise.

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And, and so, you know, how

do you cut through the noise?

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Make sure that you're, you're building

a product or a business or a service

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that matters, for a long time.

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that's getting back to that probably, you

know, healthier behavior of saying, Hey,

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how do we map to real organizational level

challenges and problems for our customers?

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Justin Norris: it 10 years, you

know, it was almost like a crazy,

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drug trip or something like that.

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And now things have

kind of come back down.

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to reality in the sense that, customer

acquisition costs that are completely

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untethered from business fundamentals,

we're sort of normalized software

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purchasing behavior that, doesn't

really make sense economically.

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It's kind of normalized.

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So I definitely see what you're

saying as a, as someone who's often

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a software buyer and is having to

make business cases for software.

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The rules of that game have

definitely changed for me.

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And I think for a lot of my peers,

how have you found the discussion

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around your category of, kind of like

enablement and, digital adoption, have

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the dynamics there changed at all?

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Daniel Giovacchini: You know, they

really have changed with AI, especially

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in the last year or two here.

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And, chat GPT came out and a lot of

founders and a lot of VCs looked at

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the underlying models, chat GPT used

and said, okay, this is amazing.

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What else is possible?

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And, you know, I'd say we were still

in the middle of a big discovery phase

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here for where's the application layer

value going to accrue and, where are

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we going to start to see, the massive

productivity improvements that, people

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are sensing that are possible, but,

you know, we're still waiting to

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come to fruition in a lot of cases.

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And, a couple of early examples of, areas

that you've seen the impact right away.

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certainly data analytics tools,

certainly customer service

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conversations, and you can point to

vendors and those categories that.

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I've started to do just show ROI cases

that have kind of never been seen before.

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but as you think about enablement

and process and, you know, a lot

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of the world that both you and I

spend a lot of time in, what you're

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starting to see is potentially

two paths to take an enablement.

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And one is, somewhat, Search focused query

focused, and you can think chat, GBT.

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You can think chat UX.

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You can think, glean as a, company that's,

been more, more and more talked about

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on the, the venture scene, but okay,

we can be really information centric

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and, center our enablement initiatives

around, unstructured text knowledge.

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Right.

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And we're just going to bet that.

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Operators are going to know the right

questions to ask, and they're going

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to be able to go retrieve answers.

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And we were able to suddenly index

all that information in a much more

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powerful way, and AI is going to help

serve results, you know, and that's

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going to improve how people work.

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There's another path that's probably

more, We're going down, right?

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Which is just in the

flow of work enablement.

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And so that's almost betting that,

Hey, instead of being information

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centric, let's be process centric.

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Let's think about.

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Where a user operator is spending

time, what tools they're in, what

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information might they need, when

might they need it, and let's try and

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serve it to them proactively or make

it available at their fingertips in

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such a way that We're not actually

requiring them to go and, understand

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the right query to be asking to unblock

themselves or to do their job better,

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to find answers to serve a customer,

you know, kind of whatever it might be.

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So I think that's kind of where.

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there's two paths in front of

us in the enablement space.

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And you're seeing companies take

kind of two different approaches

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if you want to be simplistic.

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And, you know, there's going to be

a place for both, but it's sort of

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within, if you're an operator, you

kind of start to think about, you

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know, which, which one makes most sense

For your situation for your company.

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Justin Norris: You know, when we

think about the sorts of rev ops

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use cases, we often encounter CRM

enablement or some other sort of tool

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enablement, or, you have a revenue or

marketing sales CS user needs to do

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a certain thing in a certain place.

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The, in the flow of work model just seems

commonsensically the way to go, because

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nobody cares to go, like you said, ask

a question or know the right question.

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There's so much more room for error.

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There's so much more user discretion.

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Why not just show them what to

do in the moment that they need

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To know that information most

and in the place where they are.

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And we'll get a bit deeper into tango

itself, but I'm just curious, like

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what's the, at the market level,

what's the argument against doing that?

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Cause it just seems that is the

way that you should do it to me.

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Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah.

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I mean, different

information types, right?

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So there's a lot of the unstructured

conversation that happens about product,

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customer market, competitor, internal

strategy, decisioning, and a lot of

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that just fundamentally lives within.

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A slack, a teams, a knowledge base, email.

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and so, you know, there is golden

knowledge that lives there.

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And you know, how do you

potentially surface that in ways?

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And if we think, Hey, you're a

seller and you're talking to a

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new account for the first time.

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and there's been some new, product

developments that perhaps you should

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be aware of for that account, or

there's been some new competitive

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Intel that's been discussed somewhere.

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If you actually want to surface

that, that information, you know, for

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that seller, You're going to want to

potentially search against a lot of

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these other, knowledge repositories.

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And, you know, it's not to say you

can't serve that up, in the moment.

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But, right now we're in the flow of work

enablement where that technology is.

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And that that thinking is it hasn't

quite incorporated all That general

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market company, customer information.

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So that's probably just still

a bridge that kind of needs to

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be crossed technologically to

start to make that all available.

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But I totally think, the end vision, if

we put our heads together, it should be

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less proactively serve this up when people

need it and not require them to search for

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Justin Norris: Got it.

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Cool.

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Well, we'll dig a bit more into that,

but maybe first we'll just turn back the

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page a little bit and just talk about

founding a company, starting with this

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idea and how you go from there to MVP.

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Daniel Giovacchini: There's a lot

of thoughts and literature out

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there on founding a company and, the

best way to go about early product

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development, problem discovery.

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You know, there's a couple things that

I think have stood true as far as,

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the test of time And just fundamental

truths about good innovation practice.

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And I think there's a couple of

things that are pretty outdated.

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So, for starters, first trap to fall into

is feeling like you have a great idea

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and you have a solution that the market

just needs and you Go just build it.

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it's how a lot of founders and it's how

a lot of stories get told about companies

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is you have this sudden golden insight

about something that, you or others have

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experienced and you just go build it.

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It's so often not the case.

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And you go look at the actual

evolution stories of, companies

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in their earliest days.

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And.

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You can start with an idea, but

it's going to iterate so much.

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It's going to change based on the

first time you go and actually ask

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about, what are those organizational

level OKRs that you have?

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What are actual problems that are

top of mind, for this ICP that you

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thought you understood what, other

competitive products are out there

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that maybe you weren't aware of.

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And so, the quick lesson there is just.

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You should really think about

entering a problem space and not

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entering into building a solution.

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And the more you can be curious about

your problem space early on and be

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open and flexible to iterating and

serving true North on your compass as

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how do we provide the most value for

customers that, you know, they uniquely

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do not have somewhere else, that's,

what's going to really guide you down

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the I think the most successful path.

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the other one is, is

related to building too.

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And this could apply for products or

services, but lean startup method came

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out and this minimum viable product

concept came out, pretty early on

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and, sort of entrepreneurial lore.

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And.

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What still stands true about it is

you should absolutely be going to

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get feedback as fast as possible.

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What has changed is you

should not be launching half

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baked versions of a solution.

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So, you know, as you get through

that problem space discovery, and

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as you figure out, something that

you have a strong hypothesis is, is

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going to be a game changer for, for

your customer, you really need to

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take advantage of your launch moment.

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And this is due to.

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the cost of starting a company of

creating a product, all of that

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has, being driven down to zero.

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And, you know, even with AI, right,

people are going to create products and

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software and services, you know, way

faster than they ever had historically.

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And if you're a, an individual

contributor, if you're a buyer,

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user champion, no matter what you

are at a company, there's just.

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Hundreds and thousands of products

that you can be going to try every day.

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And, the excitement of something new

it's very much become noise and less

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become a delightful moment in your day.

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So if you're going to come out and launch

a new product or service to the world,

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really try and get your launch right.

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so we read this article early

on from first round review.

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They put out amazing content, you

know, especially For builders of

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companies in the early stages.

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And the title of the article

is don't serve burnt pizza.

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And it hit us just at

the right moment in time.

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And we sort of made it, one of our,

manifestos, but, think about creating

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a minimum lovable product, not just a

minimum viable product, and, that means

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first impressions really do matter.

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take the extra six months to really

get your product marketing, right.

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Put that extra design touch if you

are a product company to really think

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through that, that service offering.

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so when you launch, you can take

advantage of that and that early

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momentum is what you're going to need

to propel you in those early days to

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then be on the path to, whatever it is,

securing more funding or reaching more

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customers or hiring more of your team.

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Justin Norris: You know, that narrative

around, iteration has been a constant,

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I think with every founder that I've

spoken to that has come on the show.

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I think Eloqua started as a chat product.

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Marketo started as some

sort of AdWords interface.

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Like the ideas changed really drastically.

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I'm curious, how did you know when

you had iterated to the place where

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you had something that was a minimum

lovable product, as you put it?

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Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah, awesome.

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So, we actually set out to solve this.

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Be curious in this problem space

of learning on the job and solve

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this, kind of, problem we felt was

out there of just, it takes too

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long to get good at what you do.

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And this is really from a, tactical

perspective of how do I be successful

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in my new role at a company?

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And, we did more discovery and we, we

kind of traced this, path to, well,

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learning the tools that you use is

actually this like Kind of fundamental

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barrier to contributing to job performance

and, getting past that ramp or nesting

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period into, you know, okay, I'm

actually taking inbound volume for the

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first time, or I'm, you know, answering

chat conversations, you know, that

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are real, real live, live customers.

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but we.

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You know, for us, it was, okay, we

think there's an interesting hypothesis

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or idea around the best people on

your team have figured out something

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unique to your company about how

to be successful and how they work.

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And, we borrowed this a little

bit from gong and chorus in the.

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The sales tech stack where they figured

out that, you know, Hey, there's a lot

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of golden insight for teams and companies

in the conversations of your top sellers,

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and they're doing things on those sales

calls that everybody could learn from.

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And so, we went around and got

curious about, Hey, learning

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on the job is really hard.

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Is this a problem, for you as

a VP, is this a problem for you

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as a new hire, we got a lot of

certainty and learned that, Hey, this

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would be a problem worth solving.

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And then we had this hypothesis of like,

if you could actually understand what

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makes Susie from Scottsdale so good at

what she does, and then make that the

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basis for, training and enablement,

would that potentially be interesting?

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And, we.

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Kept pulling on that thread.

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And, so we did get into product

development and what we realized is

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that, you know, whoa, this, wasn't just

something for customer support or for, you

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know, BPOs and call centers where learning

the actual, click process or click

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stream of how do I navigate my tools.

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Was valuable and actually

spread to way more functions.

298

: 00:17:44

And it was way more of a horizontal.

299

: 00:17:47

Problem space.

300

: 00:17:47

Then, then we kind of initially

realized, and, the moment it clicked

301

: 00:17:51

for us that we were close to something

that was minimum lovable was we

302

: 00:17:56

went and did these controlled pilots

with five or six different teams

303

: 00:18:00

at, five or six different companies,

different functions, and, it was free.

304

: 00:18:05

we tried to charge initially,

but that was even difficult.

305

: 00:18:08

And so we just made it free.

306

: 00:18:11

And it was the moment where, instead

of us just like begging people to

307

: 00:18:14

use it, they started to use it on

their own and they started to ask

308

: 00:18:18

about, Hey, would this be possible?

309

: 00:18:19

Would there be more features here?

310

: 00:18:21

Hey, could I get somebody else on?

311

: 00:18:23

And so, you know, we use this

like kind of controlled beta

312

: 00:18:25

environment to sort of assess some

of that minimum lovable component.

313

: 00:18:30

and, we said, okay, we think

we have something here.

314

: 00:18:33

Now let's take the three to six months

extra to go get this ready for a launch.

315

: 00:18:38

And, you know, we're going to make a

bet that we can really land a first

316

: 00:18:42

impression based on these early

learnings with a broader audience.

317

: 00:18:47

And we were fortunate that, that we did.

318

: 00:18:49

Justin Norris: When you mentioned

those horizontal use cases, I'm

319

: 00:18:51

curious, what are some good examples?

320

: 00:18:53

Cause was mentioning before we hit

record, I've used Tango a few times in my

321

: 00:18:58

company but it's been mostly focused on,

software navigation, click stream stuff.

322

: 00:19:03

Like you said, where

would you go from there?

323

: 00:19:06

Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah.

324

: 00:19:06

So, You kind of look at it and we

realized that like, Hey, the target

325

: 00:19:10

market for trying to teach other people

how to use software, it's really anybody

326

: 00:19:15

who's tried to take a manual screenshot,

paste it into Google doc and write out

327

: 00:19:19

some steps and send that to somebody

to tell them how to do something right.

328

: 00:19:23

Or in a Slack thread or in a,

you know, email conversation.

329

: 00:19:27

And so.

330

: 00:19:29

we really thought it was like

going to be customer support and,

331

: 00:19:34

potentially call centers again.

332

: 00:19:36

But, it was every function, from

engineering to, consultants and

333

: 00:19:41

consulting firms to HR professionals.

334

: 00:19:44

You're trying to learn how to use

the performance management software.

335

: 00:19:48

And I guess, we just didn't

totally realize that this friction

336

: 00:19:52

really does exist as, as much as.

337

: 00:19:54

software has, improved, the

ability to go get tasks done.

338

: 00:19:59

we take it for granted and a lot

of cases, and, especially from an

339

: 00:20:03

ops and enablement perspective,

you know, people are very familiar

340

: 00:20:07

with tools, very, very tech savvy.

341

: 00:20:09

Um, you know, especially if you're in

a venture backed company, but you think

342

: 00:20:13

about other people who choosing technology

is not the central component of their job.

343

: 00:20:19

and it's frustrating and people don't

want to, spend the time, going and

344

: 00:20:24

learning and the help docs, how to use

the software, navigate it and try and.

345

: 00:20:29

trial and error on their own.

346

: 00:20:31

so, that's kind of what I was referencing

347

: 00:20:33

when, you know, horizontal, it's

just this, peer to peer teaching

348

: 00:20:37

of, of how to use software

349

: 00:20:38

Justin Norris: Across more

functions, more teams, sort of

350

: 00:20:41

anywhere in the organization.

351

: 00:20:43

Daniel Giovacchini: Exactly.

352

: 00:20:43

Justin Norris: so you have that magic

moment where you're like, oh, this is

353

: 00:20:47

something that people want to use And

I can imagine that's a very interesting

354

: 00:20:51

feeling as a founder who's gone through

this Sort of hero's journey of building

355

: 00:20:55

a product and iterating on it Then you

start to think about go to market and

356

: 00:20:59

how to commercialize it at a at a bigger

scale What was the dialogue there?

357

: 00:21:04

Daniel Giovacchini: you basically

have two to three choices when you're

358

: 00:21:07

launching a product and thinking about

go to market motion today's day and age.

359

: 00:21:12

Right.

360

: 00:21:13

And.

361

: 00:21:14

you have a bottoms up version, where you

say, Hey, you think anybody can use this?

362

: 00:21:20

You think that your products

can somewhat teach itself.

363

: 00:21:24

And then you have a top down version

where, You're saying, Hey, the value

364

: 00:21:30

of this software, the benefits of

this, service need to be explained.

365

: 00:21:34

They can't be taught or discovered.

366

: 00:21:37

and then maybe you have something in

the middle where, there's interactive

367

: 00:21:41

demo experiences started to become,

more popular, and you can use

368

: 00:21:44

that to divert people into sales

conversations or a self serve journey.

369

: 00:21:49

So, maybe that's a new one.

370

: 00:21:50

That's, kind of emerging

more, but, you know, for us.

371

: 00:21:54

We looked at it and, again, we

had initially thought, okay,

372

: 00:21:58

this is very targeted, at a

couple of specific functions.

373

: 00:22:02

but when we realized that, you know,

Hey, this is more horizontal than we

374

: 00:22:05

thought really the litmus test for should

you go bottoms up or should you go.

375

: 00:22:10

Horizontal PLG is how quickly

can you provide time to value

376

: 00:22:16

and get users to an aha moment?

377

: 00:22:19

that's basically referring to Can they

get something of value from using your

378

: 00:22:24

product in a single player fashion?

379

: 00:22:26

in more or less 60 seconds or or under

right around there and if you can you're

380

: 00:22:34

gonna see a lot of benefits of bottoms

up and plg You People are going to go in,

381

: 00:22:39

understand your product, get something

from it, be so wowed that they're

382

: 00:22:42

going to want to tell people about it.

383

: 00:22:44

they're going to want to potentially

come back to it and think more about how

384

: 00:22:47

they could use it in a bigger fashion.

385

: 00:22:50

make it part of their routine.

386

: 00:22:52

If you can't, then you're very likely just

to get a bunch of tire kickers early on.

387

: 00:22:57

Maybe they're interested in

checking it out, but you're

388

: 00:22:59

not going to get people hooked.

389

: 00:23:00

and that could be for a couple reasons.

390

: 00:23:03

It could be.

391

: 00:23:04

Do you have a fundamentally

multiplayer experience?

392

: 00:23:06

Do you need multiple people involved?

393

: 00:23:09

You know, a team to actually

get value from your products.

394

: 00:23:12

If you do, it's going to be very hard to

convince that first person who finds you

395

: 00:23:17

to invite a team to try something out.

396

: 00:23:20

it's too much to ask without having

ever proved anything to them or

397

: 00:23:23

given value to them up front.

398

: 00:23:25

or, if it's not multiplayer.

399

: 00:23:27

But the product experience actually

just fundamentally is more complex

400

: 00:23:31

or requires more configuration or set

up, then you're really going to need

401

: 00:23:36

to teach them why they need to do it.

402

: 00:23:39

And super unlikely you're gonna be

able to do it in a self serve fashion.

403

: 00:23:42

You're gonna want to talk to them

and have somebody really experienced

404

: 00:23:45

sell the benefits and get them

into a trial or a sales process.

405

: 00:23:49

Justin Norris: So you, I'm, I'm

making an educated guess, the

406

: 00:23:52

bottom up motion is where you land.

407

: 00:23:54

At least that's how I've

encountered your tool.

408

: 00:23:56

And I will say to your credit that

it is pretty easy, to go through it.

409

: 00:24:01

Maybe it's a good time to just, I'll

describe to you my experience as a user

410

: 00:24:04

of a tool like this, like what I did.

411

: 00:24:07

Tell me if I'm wrong, but, you

sign up, you go and you hit

412

: 00:24:11

record, you do a thing like in CRM.

413

: 00:24:14

Click, click, click, click, click.

414

: 00:24:15

And it just captures those steps for you.

415

: 00:24:17

Like screenshots, each one sort of

automatically describes what you're doing.

416

: 00:24:22

And then you can go through and beautify

the descriptions and tweak them.

417

: 00:24:25

But, that to me was the aha moment.

418

: 00:24:27

It's like, Oh, it just sort of

captured it all right there.

419

: 00:24:30

And this kind of, magical way and created

a, an experience for the user consuming

420

: 00:24:35

that, that I think is objectively just

much better a Google doc with screenshots

421

: 00:24:40

or even like a loom, which I also really

like, but a loom you have to like kind

422

: 00:24:42

of hunt and search and start and stop.

423

: 00:24:45

And this really does have it

broken out in a very nice way.

424

: 00:24:47

So is that the typical experience

that your users are going

425

: 00:24:49

through what I just described?

426

: 00:24:50

Daniel Giovacchini: that's

the typical experience.

427

: 00:24:52

a hundred percent of our users go through

that exact experience you just described.

428

: 00:24:55

And, what we intentionally designed

into that experience actually borrowed

429

: 00:25:00

on a lot of game design principles.

430

: 00:25:02

And we recently actually put out a little.

431

: 00:25:05

piece about this, but there are specific

mechanics built in to ensure that you as a

432

: 00:25:11

user are going to get something of value.

433

: 00:25:15

Within that, that 60 seconds and

we're not going to let you go

434

: 00:25:19

necessarily on side quests early on.

435

: 00:25:22

So we're not actually going to give

you power user features as you're going

436

: 00:25:26

through and capturing your process.

437

: 00:25:28

We're not going to let you edit it

while you're in that recording session.

438

: 00:25:32

We're not going to let you, turn on audio

video and actually make a video out of it.

439

: 00:25:37

It's very intently designed to get you to.

440

: 00:25:41

A near finished state or an actually

over 60 percent of cases, it's an already

441

: 00:25:46

finished state, really without ever.

442

: 00:25:50

Getting tempted to do anything other

than, do your process with tango

443

: 00:25:54

capturing it and then we're showing

you the process you're capturing and

444

: 00:25:57

we're sort of teaching you how the

product works as you go through that.

445

: 00:26:01

first capture experience.

446

: 00:26:03

So, it's very intentional.

447

: 00:26:05

We put every user basically

through that capture journey.

448

: 00:26:08

and they, at the end of it have

something of value and they've

449

: 00:26:11

learned how the product works.

450

: 00:26:13

and that's part of what fueled

our, bottoms up motion and why

451

: 00:26:17

a lot of people refer to it as

very intuitive and easy to use.

452

: 00:26:21

Justin Norris: And the challenge I

imagine, or I'm curious about is, so

453

: 00:26:25

if I take my company, for example, like

I said, we probably have one or two or

454

: 00:26:29

a small handful of tangos in our, or

whatever we have obviously underneath,

455

: 00:26:35

under the free plan of what you offer,

what's the moment of truth that is going

456

: 00:26:40

to get a user to go from that stage to

actually, we need to put up a credit card

457

: 00:26:45

to get the value that we're looking for.

458

: 00:26:47

Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah.

459

: 00:26:48

Great question.

460

: 00:26:48

So I mean, the first aha moment is,

is getting you excited as a free user.

461

: 00:26:53

It's, capturing your, first

workflow on your own software.

462

: 00:26:56

And, number one and sort of our.

463

: 00:26:58

Activation journey, there's, sort of two

separate paths we want you to go down.

464

: 00:27:03

You know, if you're a smaller company,

if you're a freelancer, you're an SMB,

465

: 00:27:07

we potentially want you to, swipe your

credit card and become a paid user.

466

: 00:27:12

we strive that say, Hey, if you're

a power user, you know, 10 percent

467

: 00:27:16

of the free users in that market, we

think should sort of, be paid users.

468

: 00:27:21

And, the ones where we want that to be

true are if you have needs around branding

469

: 00:27:29

or if you have needs around security.

470

: 00:27:32

And so we say, Hey, if you're using

this in a power user fashion, it's

471

: 00:27:36

likely that you're using Tango.

472

: 00:27:38

To build, your own

service or product, right.

473

: 00:27:41

Or to like offer tango to a

customer, or you are using it within.

474

: 00:27:48

Your team in a way that, you really do

need, more privacy or more branding.

475

: 00:27:54

And if you're just otherwise using

it, casually, or, it is more of a, a

476

: 00:27:58

one off thing for you, then we want

it to be free because we want you to

477

: 00:28:01

share more tank creates more tangos,

share them, and not feel inhibited.

478

: 00:28:06

So privacy and branding are the

two where we want you to pay as a

479

: 00:28:12

SMB or, freelancer user of Tango.

480

: 00:28:16

If you're within a larger company,

we want to convert you on what's

481

: 00:28:19

possible with your team and

within a larger organization.

482

: 00:28:23

Software training initiative.

483

: 00:28:24

So if you're creating documentation,

it's likely because there's some bigger

484

: 00:28:29

effort happening at your company.

485

: 00:28:30

You're either bringing on new hires,

you're rolling out new software, you're

486

: 00:28:35

doing a process improvement project.

487

: 00:28:37

You're teaching reps, I mean, you know,

you're in rev ops, you're teaching reps

488

: 00:28:39

about how to use, some new functionality,

some new field perhaps within the CRM.

489

: 00:28:44

so we want to then convince you

that, Hey, there's a really powerful.

490

: 00:28:49

Team based experience here where,

this is our, our newest offering.

491

: 00:28:53

Actually, if you actually get your whole

team on board, we're going to let you

492

: 00:28:58

pin these updates and these processes

right on top of the software that people

493

: 00:29:02

are using, and it's no longer gonna.

494

: 00:29:04

Be a link that you send them, in Slack

or, living in an LMS or a knowledge base.

495

: 00:29:10

So, you talked about, you

guys use it as a free user.

496

: 00:29:14

that's great.

497

: 00:29:14

We want you to get excited

about, what Tango can do.

498

: 00:29:18

To potentially help here

and there with, the process.

499

: 00:29:21

at some point we would want you to

be convinced that, Oh, Hey, we do

500

: 00:29:24

have these larger software training

initiatives and there's suddenly a

501

: 00:29:28

powerful team based experience where

we should talk to the Tango sales

502

: 00:29:31

team about how we could set that up on

top of our CRM or on top of our, core

503

: 00:29:36

business software And benefit even more.

504

: 00:29:38

Justin Norris: So let's pivot in a bit

deeper into that product experience

505

: 00:29:41

because that what you just described

that overlay Wasn't something I'd seen

506

: 00:29:45

before I saw it on your website just

well prepping for this interview and

507

: 00:29:49

I thought oh, that's really cool it's

kind of like those like onboarding

508

: 00:29:54

wizards that you get sometimes when you

first sign up for a product But those

509

: 00:29:58

are often very annoying because they

constrict you a little bit and they you

510

: 00:30:02

must feel like you're not Like they're

mediating between you and the product.

511

: 00:30:06

Whereas this, at least in the example

that I watched, it was quite fluid.

512

: 00:30:10

Like it's actually, just guiding you

along through what you need to do.

513

: 00:30:14

So maybe just talk about that and,

what you've seen so far, perhaps

514

: 00:30:18

in the market or what your vision

is for how people would implement.

515

: 00:30:21

Do

516

: 00:30:22

Daniel Giovacchini: Yeah, totally.

517

: 00:30:22

So we're big believers that for

learning process or learning

518

: 00:30:27

software, you should learn.

519

: 00:30:29

While you're using it, you should learn,

actually in, this case, the CRM, right?

520

: 00:30:33

So the alternative, the status quo,

you know, maybe what a lot of folks do

521

: 00:30:38

today, which totally understandable,

but what it is, is you're sending out

522

: 00:30:43

a Slack update, you're jumping on top

of a, team call and screen sharing a

523

: 00:30:48

new process, or you're sending out a

loom video to talk through something.

524

: 00:30:52

And people are going to hear it.

525

: 00:30:54

perhaps a couple of people who are

particularly good with technology

526

: 00:30:59

or savvy, we'll pick it up and

there's going to be a lot of

527

: 00:31:01

people who kind of just ignore it.

528

: 00:31:02

They're going to forget, they're going to

listen with one ear and they're not going

529

: 00:31:06

to take the new tool or the new process

and incorporate it into their workflow.

530

: 00:31:10

what do we want instead?

531

: 00:31:12

Well, we basically want that the first

time you're going to go, you're going For

532

: 00:31:16

example, you're creating a new deal in

the CRM, a new opportunity, and, there's

533

: 00:31:21

a new field that you need to fill out.

534

: 00:31:23

We want you at that exact moment to, learn

and, be more or less instructed that,

535

: 00:31:29

Hey, this new field has been created.

536

: 00:31:31

here's exactly how to use it.

537

: 00:31:32

And, All you have to do is, and in our

case, hover over this, tool tip or, have

538

: 00:31:39

this, this process appear, you know, for

the first time you're on one of those

539

: 00:31:42

sub pages or page, we do a lot with

kind of URL detection in our product.

540

: 00:31:47

And that's when you're

actually going to see it.

541

: 00:31:50

And see, okay, well, I now know

that this is exactly the new process

542

: 00:31:54

update and you're far more likely to

incorporate that into your routine,

543

: 00:31:58

having learned it right in the moment

that you need it or should be doing it.

544

: 00:32:02

so that's the kind of fundamental.

545

: 00:32:05

argument for, people learning software

and process retention and compliance

546

: 00:32:12

and adherence is going to be so

much higher if it's right there when

547

: 00:32:15

they need it versus, done separately

and hope that somebody remembers.

548

: 00:32:19

Justin Norris: you have any data, like a

data point around, adoption is X percent

549

: 00:32:24

higher or like how much more quickly

someone could learn a process if they're

550

: 00:32:28

doing it this way versus reading an

article in a knowledge base or seeing

551

: 00:32:33

a synchronous training like three weeks

ago and then they go to do it and it's

552

: 00:32:36

already been forgotten at that point.

553

: 00:32:38

Daniel Giovacchini: Yep.

554

: 00:32:38

So kind of the easiest thing to measure.

555

: 00:32:41

Has been with kind of net new software

rollouts and try and compare, either to

556

: 00:32:48

a similar rollout at the company that

did not use Tango or perhaps the same

557

: 00:32:52

software rollout at a different company.

558

: 00:32:54

And, I'll mention a case study that,

that we just did to help illustrate,

559

: 00:32:57

but it was a large workday rollout.

560

: 00:32:59

So this is more HR software, less

CRM, but, it's a: 1500

561

: 00:33:04

and had to roll out workday and,

teach everybody at the company.

562

: 00:33:08

Okay, here's how you use workday

to find your pay stubs, submit for

563

: 00:33:12

PTO, uh, enroll in dental insurance,

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

564

: 00:33:16

And what they found, with Tango by putting

the instructions kind of exactly on the

565

: 00:33:21

screen where people needed them, that they

saw a 90 percent reduction in internal I.

566

: 00:33:27

T.

567

: 00:33:28

Support ticket requests and

basically going back to those owners

568

: 00:33:32

of the software and asking for

help or asking for clarification.

569

: 00:33:37

so that's one way to measure it is

sort of saying, hey, post rollout.

570

: 00:33:40

in this case, it's helpful that it

was HR software because it's stuff

571

: 00:33:43

people had to do for employment.

572

: 00:33:46

you know, in a CRM case, the danger

is that you actually don't get asked

573

: 00:33:49

those questions for support, right?

574

: 00:33:50

You don't actually get

people circling back.

575

: 00:33:52

You just get people who ignore you

and, you find out, you know, later

576

: 00:33:56

on that they weren't doing it.

577

: 00:33:57

but we, saw it sort of 90%.

578

: 00:33:59

Reduction in support

tickets with this customer.

579

: 00:34:02

And, that basically goes to, prove that,

when the information is, right there, you

580

: 00:34:07

are that much more likely to, successfully

incorporate that new information and,

581

: 00:34:11

completing your, task or your process.

582

: 00:34:13

Justin Norris: One of the things that

I thought was novel was it seemed

583

: 00:34:17

that there is some, kind of what,

at least one of your AI features.

584

: 00:34:22

And that there was some intelligence

to allow for flexibility in the

585

: 00:34:25

process that the user would carry out.

586

: 00:34:27

Cause sometimes these things are

rigid where it's like, you have to

587

: 00:34:30

click on this and you have to click on

this and it's like, click on a lead.

588

: 00:34:33

Well, it could be many leads.

589

: 00:34:34

It could be many different things.

590

: 00:34:36

how did you solve for that problem

of, having a structure, but creating

591

: 00:34:39

flexibility at the same time,

592

: 00:34:40

Daniel Giovacchini: Definitely.

593

: 00:34:41

So, there's certainly complexity

and how you configure process

594

: 00:34:44

instruction based on, you take a

CRM, for instance, you have parent.

595

: 00:34:49

URL pages and you have, kind of children

sub pages and we'll take a company record.

596

: 00:34:55

And if you want process instruction to

only show up for one specific company

597

: 00:34:59

because they're very unique versus do

you want process instruction to show

598

: 00:35:03

up for every company and all of those

sub pages and all those sub URLs.

599

: 00:35:07

So that's one example where.

600

: 00:35:09

that's a power user feature that we help

people learn how to modify and create.

601

: 00:35:13

And it's actually very easy and

practice, but it is a complicated,

602

: 00:35:17

nuanced part of the technology and

part of the delivery of the products

603

: 00:35:21

when you configure it right, it can be.

604

: 00:35:23

much more powerful or you've also

realized there's many more edge cases.

605

: 00:35:27

So, this is why this experience,

we actually work much more in a

606

: 00:35:30

sales and success led fashion versus

product led because figuring out

607

: 00:35:35

something like that is difficult.

608

: 00:35:37

but yeah, you essentially want to say,

Hey, Ask yourself a few questions about

609

: 00:35:42

either a process or enablement tip.

610

: 00:35:43

Is this something I want everybody

to globally see on every instance

611

: 00:35:48

of, a page just like this?

612

: 00:35:51

or is it something we, only want them

to see uniquely on a specific page?

613

: 00:35:55

So that's one question to ask.

614

: 00:35:56

Another question to ask is, is this

something we want people to see every time

615

: 00:36:00

they come, or is this something we only

want them to see one time, and it really

616

: 00:36:05

is just like a, see it for the first time.

617

: 00:36:07

And we don't want to show it again.

618

: 00:36:09

so, those are usually the main kind

of, okay, if we're gonna do real

619

: 00:36:16

time enablement in the flow of work.

620

: 00:36:18

those are the two main questions along

with user groups and permissions.

621

: 00:36:22

So do we want just new hires to see this

or, you know, experienced team members,

622

: 00:36:26

or we want just the sales team to see

this versus just the success team.

623

: 00:36:30

those are the main questions to

ask and you're on your way to

624

: 00:36:34

providing like curated enablement.

625

: 00:36:36

So

626

: 00:36:37

Justin Norris: then in terms of.

627

: 00:36:38

The place of a tool like Tango within a

bigger knowledge management ecosystem.

628

: 00:36:42

So like I have a knowledge base,

for instance, we use confluence, and

629

: 00:36:46

that's very important for some things.

630

: 00:36:49

And then we also like the company that

I work for in my day job, we sell an LMS

631

: 00:36:53

and mostly, targeting the L and D buyer.

632

: 00:36:57

but some, similar overlapping use cases.

633

: 00:36:59

And so that has another

repository of knowledge.

634

: 00:37:03

Do you aim to.

635

: 00:37:05

eat all those things eventually

subsume them in your broader vision

636

: 00:37:09

of where you'll be in like five or

10 years or play alongside them.

637

: 00:37:13

What will that look like?

638

: 00:37:14

Daniel Giovacchini: knowledge bases and

LMS is serve very important functions

639

: 00:37:18

that aren't necessarily going to go away.

640

: 00:37:20

Okay.

641

: 00:37:20

and that's really that general information

about, what is our industry, what is

642

: 00:37:25

our product, who are our competitors,

of this information that you would

643

: 00:37:29

need as context and background to be

successful at then, you know, using

644

: 00:37:34

your tools and completing processes.

645

: 00:37:36

So, that's very much, still

critical and important.

646

: 00:37:40

What we would argue is that.

647

: 00:37:41

You should not be teaching how

to use software, how, to complete

648

: 00:37:45

tasks, how to go about process from

within a knowledge base or an LMS.

649

: 00:37:50

And if you want to reference

it there, that's great.

650

: 00:37:53

So we very much believe in deep linking

process, instruction, deep linking.

651

: 00:38:01

tango workflows or folders, from within

knowledge bases or LMS is, and you

652

: 00:38:07

can then go learn in the tools, and

actually experience the process through

653

: 00:38:11

the tools instead of, within a scorn

file or something, embedded in LMS or

654

: 00:38:16

knowledge base, So that to us, makes a

lot of sense, to reinforce tool based

655

: 00:38:22

learning systems, learning in there,

but actually trying to teach through a

656

: 00:38:26

PowerPoint or, put a video inside the

knowledge base, you expect people to

657

: 00:38:30

watch and memorize that's actually what

we would expect to completely go away.

658

: 00:38:35

Justin Norris: And do you see yourself

again, thinking about your product

659

: 00:38:39

vision, could you ever be a complete

knowledge management solution, and

660

: 00:38:42

have like your knowledge base, or do

you always imagine yourself partnering

661

: 00:38:45

alongside other vendors like that

in the knowledge management stack?

662

: 00:38:50

Daniel Giovacchini: I think and

this is very much a, partnership

663

: 00:38:53

driven, vision, I believe.

664

: 00:38:55

So if we do say, Hey, there's

many types of knowledge,

665

: 00:39:00

there's many types of learning.

666

: 00:39:02

Some tools are going to be much more

specific and well suited for, this type.

667

: 00:39:07

And some are going to be

more suited for that type.

668

: 00:39:10

the question for.

669

: 00:39:11

real time enablement for what Tango is

trying to do and help, you know, it really

670

: 00:39:15

is a kind of like co pilot vision, right.

671

: 00:39:17

Of how people, while they work, while

they're doing, can we partner with other

672

: 00:39:21

tools to surface their information in

the flow of work when that's relevant?

673

: 00:39:26

And, bi directionally.

674

: 00:39:29

For LMSs, for example, you're always

going to have cohort based onboarding.

675

: 00:39:33

You're always going to have crops of

new hires starting, and they're going

676

: 00:39:37

to need, some hand holding in their

first number of weeks that's probably

677

: 00:39:42

always best delivered, through an LMS.

678

: 00:39:44

And, so there's their bi directional,

um, instruction then where stuff

679

: 00:39:48

that might live in software and tools

can also be, served through the LMS.

680

: 00:39:53

it's all about, I think, designing the

best upfront learning experience and

681

: 00:39:57

the best sort of knowledge management,

serving knowledge when people need it.

682

: 00:40:01

And that's likely going to be

through a combination of tools.

683

: 00:40:06

Justin Norris: Makes perfect sense.

684

: 00:40:08

I want to pivot to you for a second

and like your role in the org.

685

: 00:40:14

You're the COO, which, like all

operations, jobs, it can mean

686

: 00:40:18

many different things I find.

687

: 00:40:20

So I'm curious about you see your

role, your place within the org, the

688

: 00:40:24

sorts of responsibilities you have.

689

: 00:40:27

Daniel Giovacchini: if you actually

go back and look at, you know,

690

: 00:40:28

Fundamentally, what is operations?

691

: 00:40:31

It is helping your company

deliver and support your product

692

: 00:40:38

or service offering, right?

693

: 00:40:40

And be most efficient as

possible in doing that.

694

: 00:40:43

So operations to me is

really everything outside of.

695

: 00:40:48

Core product development or

like core service delivery.

696

: 00:40:53

And then if you think back office

operations about how does our company

697

: 00:40:57

be efficient to then ultimately

deliver this product or service.

698

: 00:41:02

And then you think about, and especially

the last, 10, 15 years, right?

699

: 00:41:05

Like rev ops is the fastest

growing job and certain: 2023

700

: 00:41:10

reports, according to Forbes.

701

: 00:41:12

a lot of these other,

function specific operations.

702

: 00:41:15

Yeah.

703

: 00:41:15

groups are really about, okay, how do

we make, their efforts more efficient?

704

: 00:41:20

so as, we're fast growing, kind of

early stage company by all means.

705

: 00:41:25

but what does that mean?

706

: 00:41:26

It's, it's how do we.

707

: 00:41:29

Most efficiently operationalized around

bringing, our core products, to market.

708

: 00:41:33

And so that's, a little bit of

back office, in the early days is

709

: 00:41:38

overseeing some of that function,

but also very much sales marketing.

710

: 00:41:43

Support, success and, the

enablement of those really customer

711

: 00:41:47

facing people on those teams.

712

: 00:41:49

How do we set up structures and make

sure all these, groups and functions are

713

: 00:41:54

speaking the same language, drawing on

the same philosophy as they make their

714

: 00:41:57

decisions and as fluid away as possible.

715

: 00:42:00

And it's chaotic early on.

716

: 00:42:03

but certainly as you hit milestones,

you get more certainty and you

717

: 00:42:06

build more foundation in different

areas and you're able to get more

718

: 00:42:11

precise and more prescriptive.

719

: 00:42:12

Justin Norris: As a COO, there's

a pretty broad scope of activities

720

: 00:42:17

that fall under your purview.

721

: 00:42:19

And as a consequence of that, there

are like a million things that

722

: 00:42:23

you could be thinking about or

doing at any given point in time.

723

: 00:42:28

And I'm really interested in

the problem of prioritization

724

: 00:42:31

in a situation like that.

725

: 00:42:32

Because I think that's something that

many operators can relate to at any level.

726

: 00:42:36

So I'm curious, How do you making

those decisions day to day?

727

: 00:42:38

Like I need to move this company

forward relatively early stage.

728

: 00:42:41

As you said, it's chaotic.

729

: 00:42:43

What am I going to do today?

730

: 00:42:44

It's a hard question to answer sometimes.

731

: 00:42:47

Daniel Giovacchini: It's the

ultimate question to answer.

732

: 00:42:50

starts with working backwards from

where are we in our product market fit

733

: 00:42:55

journey when you're in early stages.

734

: 00:42:57

And if you're an early stage

company, whether your product or

735

: 00:43:00

service, you're, you're racing to.

736

: 00:43:02

best version of product market fit

that you can, optimally achieve within,

737

: 00:43:07

your timeframe and, working backwards

from that, that helps you prioritize.

738

: 00:43:11

So in certain weeks, it's, we're

not learning fast enough, right?

739

: 00:43:16

Or like we are not the feedback loop.

740

: 00:43:20

Between sales and marketing is not strong

enough to the point where we're putting

741

: 00:43:26

out effective messaging or positioning

because we're not understanding, you know,

742

: 00:43:31

what's actually happening on, sales calls.

743

: 00:43:33

And so that's like, okay, crap, we have

to use call recording technology better.

744

: 00:43:37

We have to set up a different

meeting structure and a meeting

745

: 00:43:39

cadence to achieve that.

746

: 00:43:41

But it all comes from like, okay.

747

: 00:43:43

You know, we're not learning fast enough

to help us get to product market fit.

748

: 00:43:45

or it could be like, Hey, we're

not having the right conversations.

749

: 00:43:47

And so, we really have to go look at what

we're doing from a marketing perspective.

750

: 00:43:53

so once you're kind of in the sort

of more post product market fit

751

: 00:43:56

phase, I think the North star then

is, you have your, six, 12 months.

752

: 00:44:01

Okay.

753

: 00:44:01

Ours or strategy.

754

: 00:44:03

That's kind of the timeframe, that

feel like is, more in vogue now for all

755

: 00:44:07

stage companies is three months is, too

little more than a year is, too much.

756

: 00:44:11

but you have your company level

priorities and, um, what's going

757

: 00:44:14

to help you hit those the fastest.

758

: 00:44:16

and so going and finding, being maniacal

about removing friction or blockers

759

: 00:44:22

or organizational, lethargy, right?

760

: 00:44:26

How do you go find that

stuff and, blow through it?

761

: 00:44:28

that's kind of the, next

prioritization function in my mind.

762

: 00:44:32

And the last thing I'll mention is

you do need a longterm mindset, right?

763

: 00:44:36

So one of our values actually

is, this, leave it better.

764

: 00:44:40

and we highlight people, within

the company, within the team

765

: 00:44:43

every month, and, it's basically.

766

: 00:44:45

who is making sure that as we build

and as we stand up, new process or new

767

: 00:44:51

functionality or a new go to market

motion for the first time, who's thinking

768

: 00:44:55

about the systems mindset, who's thinking

longterm, that we're making decisions and

769

: 00:44:59

we're implementing things in such a way.

770

: 00:45:01

That, they're going to endure and

we're not just cutting corners and

771

: 00:45:05

hastily, saying we completed tasks.

772

: 00:45:07

So, that to me is more a mindset.

773

: 00:45:10

That's a culture of values thing

you need to build harder to work

774

: 00:45:13

into a prioritization structure.

775

: 00:45:15

So we think about that one

from a values perspective,

776

: 00:45:17

Justin Norris: Really appreciate

you coming on, sharing a bit about

777

: 00:45:20

your journey and about how you're

thinking about this problem.

778

: 00:45:24

it's certainly, as I mentioned to you

earlier, like I just nerd out about

779

: 00:45:27

this stuff, because it's so hard and I

think so annoying when it doesn't work.

780

: 00:45:33

it's really cool, to find some

ways to make it work better.

781

: 00:45:35

So big fan of what you folks are doing.

782

: 00:45:37

We'll include a link in

the show notes for, anyone.

783

: 00:45:39

listening, who wants to check

you out and yeah, thanks for

784

: 00:45:43

spending some time with me.

785

: 00:45:44

Daniel Giovacchini: of course, love

having the conversation and, uh, love

786

: 00:45:46

learning from you and the other guests as

787

: 00:45:48

well.

788

: 00:45:48

Justin Norris: Cheers.