Every company pays lip service to privacy. But few seem to really value it in practice.In marketing and sales, we rely on personal and behavioural data for so many commonplace tactics, and this reliance is only increasing. It's a kind of arms race. Even if you wanted to, it feels like you can't afford to give up the perceived advantages of using personal data.And even as we continually hear about the "death" of this or that type of tracking, the reality is that hundreds of billions of advertising revenue are on the line. The incentives to keep collecting and commodifying our data are huge. I wanted to dig deeper into the current state of privacy in marketing today, and I could think of no better person to reach out to than Stephane Hamel. He is a legendary practitioner and thought leader in the digital analytics space and one of the foremost advocates for privacy and ethics in marketing.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Stephane Hamel is a digital analytics and marketing expert with over 35 years experience. He has spoken at over 150 industry events and was named one of the Most Influential Industry Contributors by the Digital Analytics Association. As an educator, he’s taught thousands of students at institutions including UBC, SimpliLearn, ULaval, Harvard, YorkU, and others. In recent years, he’s focused his attention on the ethical use of data in a marketing contexthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/shamel/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:49] - Current state of privacy in marketing[03:30] - Vision of a truly privacy-oriented company[08:20] - How a 100% consent-based model would work[10:59] - Is privacy-respecting marketing better marketing?[13:26] - Analogy of seatbelts[17:32] - Getting people to care about privacy [20:50] - Advertising in a privacy-first world[24:21] - Conflict between privacy and commercial interests [31:41] - Google and the “death” of third-party cookies[36:47] - AI literacy [41:44] - Career impact of being privacy-orientedLearn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Refine Labs has had a seismic impact on B2B marketing. Whether you agree with their philosophy or not, it's hard to deny its influence. They've set the agenda, defined the terms of the debate, and challenged many aspects of the status quo. Former CEO Chris Walker catapulted the agency to prominence with his LinkedIn thought leadership. But behind the scenes, there's also been an intricate operational odyssey to scale Refine Labs from scratch to nearly 100 employees. Today's guest, Megan Bowen, partnered with Chris from the beginning as COO before taking over as CEO in January of 2024. In this no-holds-barred episode, she shares an operational perspective on building Refine Labs, with candid stories and insights about scaling a service-based business, riding the hyper-growth rollercoaster, and weathering economic storms. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Over her 20+ year career, Megan Bowen has built and scaled go-to-market teams at eChalk, ZocDoc, Grubhub/Seamless (IPO: 2014), ManagedbyQ (WeWork Acquisition: 2019) and Platterz. In 2020, she teamed up with the Founder of Refine Labs to change the way B2B companies go-to-market.Today, she is the CEO of Refine Labs, A B2B Demand Generation Agency.https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganwhitebowen/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:32] - Megan’s background[07:06] - Building Refine Labs[14:15] - Stepping into the CEO role [16:34] - Prioritizing the health of your team [21:56] - Segmenting clients and service levels[23:54] - Packaging, pricing, and service design[25:46] - Transparency in the sales process[27:43] - Achieving consistent service quality when scaling the team [31:21] - Onboarding process [31:59] - Balancing supply and demand in agency staffing[35:23] - Transparency around layoffs[37:12] - Evolution of Refine Labs methodology[40:36] - Partnership with AspireshipResource LinksRefine Labs | Leading B2B Demand Generation AgencyRefine Labs x Aspireship - Get subsidized access to the Refine Labs IP library with Aspireship. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

I think marketing is one of the toughest functions to lead successfully.Your job is part art, part science. You need to hire, coach, and retain talent with a huge range of skillsets that you may even not be master of yourself—from the creative to the analytical to the technical.And then your job is to simultaneously create demand, capture demand, help sales convert that demand, help customer success retain and expand that demand...your job is never done.Today we chat with one of my favourite marketing leaders, Thao Ngo. We'll explore her unconventional marketing strategy and also her leadership playbook—how she grows her team and creates an environment where people do their best work. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Thao Ngo is a senior B2B marketing leader with 20+ years of experience in building world-class teams, generating sales-ready leads, and creating brand awareness for tech companies of various sizes. She's led marketing teams at Elastic Path, Vision Critical, and SensorUp, and is currently SVP of Marketing at Uptempo. https://www.linkedin.com/in/thaongo/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:09] - What makes a great marketer?[02:40] - Evolution of marketing skills[04:48] - How to use data[06:25] - Marketing leadership and operating rhythms[09:30] - Trust and psychological safety[12:49] - Coaching and feedback [24:32] - First hires on a marketing team[25:43] - Division of labour between CMO and VP[28:05] - What keeps Thao up at night[29:47] - The marketing planning process[36:24] - Influencer / community marketing programs[47:13] - A day in the life of ThaoResource LinksLive MOps Huddles Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

More and more marketers are embracing demand creation as a strategy, at least in principle. But making a fundamental GTM change is HARD. You need to build executive alignment, define new KPIs, identify how to educate your target audience, fine-tune your content engine, and a whole lot more. As VP of Demand Gen at Refine Labs, Sam Kuehnle has been a big part of the movement evangelizing a shift from lead gen to demand gen and has helped many companies make the transition. Now he's leading a similar shift as an in-house marketing leader. We go deep into what it takes to actually implement this strategy in practice, go beyond leads, and deliver real revenue impact. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Sam Kuehnle is VP of Marketing at Loxo, the Talent Intelligence Platform. From working in-house at a publicly-traded company, to advising seed stage companies trying to figure out how to crack their first $1M in ARR, to everything in-between, Sam is passionate about learning and sharing better ways to do marketing. Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:37] - Sam’s marketing experience before Refine Labs [06:33] - Joining Refine Labs[08:11] - Refine Labs onboarding process[10:21] - A typical engagement + aligning with customer teams[13:36] - How to communicate a demand creation strategy[20:26] - Identifying the right mix of channels / platforms [25:02] - Leading indicators for demand creation[26:45] - Brand awareness vs. demand creation[31:32] - Evolution during Sam’s tenure at Refine[33:33] - The band-wagon effect and how to identify the best practices of tomorrow[35:11] - Joining Loxo [37:10] - Sam’s first priorities after going in house [41:38] - LinkedIn ad strategy[45:09] - Experiments with Connected TV[51:35] - ChatGPT as a marketing channelResource LinksSam's Marketing Meditations - Sam's Substack Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

I've worked with a bunch of different sellers. Some were good. Some not so much. But one or two were truly next level.They had consistently better results. They brought in bigger deals. They closed accounts no one else could. And they just seemed to "get it" in a different way. They were switched on—you didn't need to tell them what to do. Whatever challenge you threw at them, they found a way. They seemed built just a little bit differently than other people on the team.I've always been curious about what makes those great sellers great.To help answer that question, I sat down with true superstar of the sales world, 5x President's Club winner Brian LaManna, Strategic AE at Gong. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Brian LaManna is a Strategic Account Executive at Gong and Founder of Closed Won, where he offers resources and playbooks for sellers. He is a 5x President's Club winner and regularly achieves 200%+ of quota. https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlamanna/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:28] - Role of a seller in the revenue process[03:11] - Sales is not convincing[04:03] - Defusing prospect defensiveness[05:48] - When to break the sales process[07:21] - Are good sellers born or made? [09:26] - Attributes of a great seller[11:25] - Developing a “CEO” mindset[13:17] - Cultivating real relationships with customers[16:11] - Mindsets, strategies, and routines [24:18] - Benefits of selling Gong[25:28] - The sales / sales ops relationship[28:53] - How ops can get sellers to cooperate[31:45] - What does Gong’s RevOps team do well? [33:43] - Why AEs should always be prospecting[39:02] - Current state of outbound [41:39] - Live example: creating a tailored cold email[44:47] - Personalization vs. relevance[46:45] - How sellers can win at “social selling”Resource LinksClosed Won | Systematizing OutboundLinkedIn Post: Personalization vs. Relevance Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

SaaS companies spent the past decade optimizing for growth and customer acquisition at all costs. For many, the plan to actually retain and grow those customers has been foggy.Now with many businesses facing the reality of massive churn, it's become incredibly clear that helping customers succeed is just as important as acquiring them in the first place.So we're here today to discuss the third leg of the RevOps stool: customer success ops, and by extension, the discipline of customer success as well.CS Ops doesn't get as much love or attention as marketing or sales ops—one of my past guests jokingly referred to CS Ops as the "red-headed step-child" of RevOps. But I think, and hope, this is starting to evolve.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Stephen McBride is a Customer Success and CS Ops leader dedicated to helping companies grow better. His career has spanned in-house and consulting roles, and he’s spent over seven years in total at Hubspot, five of them as a leader in their Customer Success Org. He recently returned to the agency world with Go Nimbly as a RevOps Delivery Director. https://www.linkedin.com/in/mcbridest/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:49] - Defining the role of customer success[02:51] - Role of CS in a PLG motion[03:37] - Strategies of a great CS team[06:00] - CS strategy at Hubspot[07:56] - Why do some big companies neglect CS?[09:29] - CS as cost center vs. growth driver[11:38] - Balancing the mindset of customer support vs. upselling[14:09] - Defining the mission of your CS team[15:36] - CS as a point of leverage in the customer experience[17:28] - Impact of macro-economic factors on CS strategies[20:06] - Identifying the impact of CS, factors you can A/B test[21:35] - Scope and mission of CS Operations [23:23] - CS Ops as a its own function vs. part of RevOps[29:09] - Who should a unified RevOps function report to?[31:52] - CS Ops vs. MOPS and SOPS[34:42] - CS tools and systems[40:19] - A best-in-class CS tech stack[42:34] - Churn forecasting[44:35] - Getting truly useful health scores[48:34] - Reducing churn Thanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know that outbound is really tough. Now imagine a world where you’re reaching people who know your product, love your product, and are actually happy to hear from you. UserGems makes that a reality. They identify your customers and champions who change jobs and automatically push new contacts to your CRM so your team can follow up. If you’re not reaching out to customer job changers, you’re missing opportunities. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Resource LinksNet Revenue Retention Hub - Go Nimbly - Go Nimbly's excellent hub on NRR and CS topics. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:

Prioritization is probably the biggest challenge for ops teams. Say yes to everything—you pretty quickly become a service department. Set your own priorities without input from the business—you can quickly find yourself irrelevant, even out of a job.The best model that I've seen for tackling this problem is what we could call the product management approach to managing MarTech. This is where you effectively treat your stack as an internal product and ops as a product management team working on delivering features for internal customers. Today's guest has practiced this approach at enterprise scale, with an ops team dozens strong. Josh Hill shares his insights and lessons learned, as well as his journey as one of the earliest and well-recognized experts in the Marketo community. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Josh Hill is a GTM operations and systems executive who builds revenue accelerating GTM platforms, global teams, and processes in partnership with Product, Sales, and Marketing. He has a strong track record of turning business strategies into live enterprise capabilities and impactful customer experiences. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhill2/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:37] - Josh’s professional journey[04:19] - Development of automation pro as a professional identity[06:48] - Scope and scale of the teams Josh led[08:54] - Definition of a product management approach to martech[15:45] - Should marketing ops be oriented around business impact? [21:03] - Reasons why ops teams need to say “no” sometimes[27:38] - Solving for the internal vs. external customer [30:39] - Asking tough questions about adoption and ROI [33:53] - Building your roadmap [35:53] - Communicating your roadmap internally[40:10] - Cultivating resolve around prioritization and triaging requests[42:43] - How to transition to a product management approach Resource Links Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Every marketing team  wants attribution. But weirdly, it's often not that satisfying when they actually get it. I led many multi-touch attribution projects as a consultant, and we got really good at implementing tools, creating taxonomies, and making sure that data was clean.But I found that when you actually showed these reports to a C-level executive, it was usually kind of underwhelming. The data didn't always pass the common sense test. Today's guest thinks there's a better way — Marketing Mix Modelling. It's basically the application of mathematical techniques to model relationships between different variables. However, technology now enables it to happen faster and more cost-effectively than ever before. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Mark Stouse is CEO of ProofAnalytics.AI. With over 26 years of experience in marketing communications and strategy, he has a passion for transforming GTM performance with data-driven insights and agile decision making. Prior to founding Proof, Mark was CMO at Honeywell Aerospace, CCO at BMC Software, and a marketing leader at Hewlett Packard Enterprise. https://www.linkedin.com/in/markstouse/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:15] - Clarifying the acronym “MMM”[02:39] - Mark’s background and how he founded Proof Analytics [07:57] - Limitations of multi-touch attribution (“MTA”)[14:16] - How MMM avoids the shortcomings of MTA[16:42] - The Fischer Price definition of MMM[19:56] - Demand vs. brand investments and their impact[24:09] - A/B vs. multivariate regression[25:21] - MMM is aggregate modelling, no reliance on PII[27:12] - Simple explanation of multi-variate regression[30:29] - Incorporating third-party data sources[31:48] - Historical ROI vs. forecasted ROI[32:52] - Is MMM just for enterprise?[34:51] - Marketing as a non-linear multiplier[38:02] - Getting started with MMM[41:18] - Updating models to include new data sources[42:07] - Competition in the marketing analytics space[44:41] - B2C marketing is more advanced in usage of multi-variate regressionResource LinksProof Analytics - Official SiteEconometrics // Lecture 1: Introduction Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

For most of us in B2B, the marketing automation platform - aka "MAP" - is the anchoring piece of technology in the martech stack.When I was first buying a MAP, there were way more options than today, but generally they all bundled a few core features together — sending emails, segmenting audiences, and creating workflows.But is there a reason why you need to do your lifecycle processing in the same tool that you send emails with? What does a Martech stack look like where these roles are distributed differently?Today's guest has answered that question and built an elegant and high-performing composable stack.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Niels Fogt is Sr. Director, Automation Solutions at tray.io. He's led and participated in a wide variety of initiatives within growth and marketing. Strong technical acumen. UX roots.https://www.linkedin.com/in/uxstrategist/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[02:31] - Niels’ journey as a martech architect [06:06] - Challenges with the traditional martech stack[09:13] - Developer mindsets and service-oriented architecture[12:10] - Applying automation capabilities across the organization[14:09] - Components of Tray’s martech stack[15:02] - The role of a customer journey tool[16:07] - Centralized lead processing in Tray[17:23] - Event collection[19:09] - Streaming events into automation tool vs. data warehouse [22:21] - Native vs. custom integrations[29:15] - Benefits of having a workflow layer in Tray vs. in a MAP[32:02] - Economics of using an iPaaS as a workflow layer[34:50] - Composable martech stacks [39:03] - Skillsets needed to operate a composable stack[40:01] - Future capabilities[41:25] - Relationship to business stakeholdersResource LinksWhy low code is the future of lead management (and RevOps)Introduction to the lead processing pipeline on Tray.ioOpen source RevOps: Taking a closer look at the first few steps of the lead processing pipeline Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Kyle Coleman is one of the most prominent revenue leaders on LinkedIn and a long-time champion of sales development. So there was no one better to chat with about the future of the SDR function, which some claim is facing imminent demise... Spoiler alert: Kyle doesn't share that view. But he DOES think that it needs to change. We look at how sales development will evolve in 2024 and beyond, discuss his SDR to 2-time-CMO journey, and examine how AI will impact sellers and increase productivity.Perhaps most importantly, we also go deep into the mindsets, routines, and strategies Kyle has used to enable his professional growth and productivity. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Kyle Coleman is a sales and Marketing leader with a passion for people development, identifying and solving problems, creating and optimizing processes, and unifying departments across the revenue org. He's currently the CMO at Copy.ai and was previously CMO at Clari. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyletcoleman/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:39] - Role of SDRs in B2B GTM[04:47] - Strategic partnership between SDRs and AEs[07:43] - How does a junior SDR offer value to an executive? [11:20] - Qualities and skills of a good SDR[14:05] - Providing space for SDR autonomy[16:28] - Replacing SDRs with AI?[19:25] - Kyle’s mindset for professional success[24:21] - Importance of documentation[26:08] - Figuring out what to say “no” to[28:52] - Keeping calm in the face of big targets[31:43] - Daily routines and prioritization[35:32] - Benefits of being a LinkedIn creator[39:38] - Core job of a marketing leader[41:35] - Why Kyle joined Copy.ai[43:19] - Core capabilities of the platform[49:29] - Kyle’s predictions on the future of AI in GTMThanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know that outbound is really tough. Now imagine a world where you’re reaching people who know your product, love your product, and are actually happy to hear from you. UserGems makes that a reality. They identify your customers and champions who change jobs and automatically push new contacts to your CRM so your team can follow up. If you’re not reaching out to customer job changers, you’re missing opportunities. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Resource LinksThe only AI platform purpose-built for outcomes - Copy.ai official website Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

There comes a time in every marketing ops professional's life when they wonder if the grind of an in-house job is worth it after all. Whether it's politics, overwork, lack of resources, lack of respect, a toxic boss, or one of a million other things...it might make you think, "maybe I'd be happier as a consultant."But is the grass actually greener? What does it take to get started in consulting? Are you better off at an agency or as an independent? How do you find clients? To answer these questions (and many more), I'm joined by Lauren Aquilino and Sydney Mulligan. With over 20 years of consulting experience between us, we have a no-holds-barred discussion on the pros and cons and how to succeed. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's GuestsLauren and Sydney are co-founders of EMMIE Collective - a for-hire collective of the most sought-after independent consultants and boutique firms in the marketing ops and ops adjacent space - and co-hosts of the Pretty Funny Business podcast. https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenaquilino/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sydneymulligan/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:08] - Origin story of EMMIE Collective [10:45] - Has the reality of the agency model met their expectations? [12:48] - Becoming an independent consultant vs. joining an agency[15:05] - The experience of transitioning from in-house to consultant[17:20] - In-house career growth limitations for technical marketing ops[18:34] - Challenges of moving from an IC to a manager[21:44] - Finding clients and financial planning as a consultant[24:16] - Layoffs pushing people into consulting[26:42] - Commercial arrangements - hourly vs. project vs. retainer[28:50] - Challenges scoping fixed bid projects[30:23] - Fractional consulting models[32:38] - How to ensure quality / consistency with a team of independents[36:57] - Client management skills and dealing with challenging clients[41:45] - The tattoo booth at MOps-ApaloozaResource LinksEMMIE Collective Official SitePretty Funny Business: The Podcast Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

B2B communities are everywhere these days. It's easy to forget that 10 years ago, it wasn't nearly so easy to connect with peers, ask for unfiltered recommendations, celebrate wins, and commiserate about dumpster fires.Mike Rizzo has made community his career - both in developing B2B customer communities and in building the top community of practice for marketing operations. In this episode, we examine how B2B companies can leverage community as part of their GTM strategy, what makes a community tick, and the inside scoop on what it took to host MOps-Apalooza. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Mike Rizzo is a career marketing operations professional passionate about community. In 2017 he also founded the growing community of MO Pros - a place where thousands of Marketing Operations Professionals connect, collaborate and help elevate the practice of Marketing Ops. He is also the co-host of the podcast called Ops Cast.https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedrizzo/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:42] - Why start a MOPS community? [05:17] - Community is like a product[08:40] - Each community is a vibe[10:40] - Maturity of marketing ops vs. sales ops[16:37] - Lack of strategic MOPS leadership roles in the marketplace[19:13] - MOPS pros should be like product managers[21:08] - Community-led as a GTM motion[25:40] - Balancing community and economic concerns[33:22] - MOps-Apalooza[39:59] - What motivated Mike to put on the event?[42:26] - The future of marketing operationsResource Links#1 Marketing Ops Community & Private Network | MO Pros - Official site for the MO Pros communityOps Cast - The Ops Cast podcastMOps-Apalooza 2024 - Marketing Ops - Website for MOps-Apalooza 2024 Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Every B2B company has a funnel tracking process. And quite often, that process is seriously limited or broken.Leads get lost, data is inaccurate, and businesses struggle to produce insights and accurate reporting.I've seen this first hand, and so has this week's guest - Charlie Saunders. We've both spent years as consultants fixing broken funnels. In this episode, we talk about the many reasons funnel tracking goes wrong and dive deep into the architecture of the scalable solution Charlie's team has developed. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Charlie Saunders is co-founder and the Chief Revenue & Operations Officer at CS2, where he builds Revenue Growth Architecture for growth-stage B2B tech companies that powers efficient and predictable revenue growth.https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliesaunders/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:35] - Why funnel tracking matters[05:05] - How funnel metrics and attribution interact[08:21] - Key funnel metrics[10:18] - Accuracy vs. perfection in funnel tracking[14:06] - Why we can’t rely just on a Lead Status field[19:03] - Using a Salesforce custom object for funnel tracking[20:23] - Explanation of using a lifecycle campaign to bridge leads and contacts[21:01] - Should everyone start with a custom object?[26:55] - Why a custom object doesn’t need to be that intensive to implement[29:34] - Custom object impact on sales process and UX[33:25] - Tipping point = the initiation of the sales process[34:58] - Multiple tipping point types[36:14] - Different stages in the pre-pipeline section of the funnel[39:28] - Build vs. buy when considering a custom object solution[40:38] - You need a strong foundation for any funnel tracking to work[42:56] - Deeper discussion on attribution[45:47] - Significance of the the "tipping point" touchResource LinksCS2 | B2B Marketing & Revenue Operations Consulting - Official CS2 website. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Many entrepreneurs dream of creating categories. But few have actually done it - much less built a category worth billions of dollars. Mark Organ is one of those rare few. As founding CEO of Eloqua, he pioneered marketing automation in the early 2000s, paving the way for other players and selling to Oracle for nearly $900 million. Mark and I chat through how he co-founded Eloqua, the pivots and experiments needed to achieve product-market fit, and how category creators may be wired a bit differently. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Mark Organ is the founding CEO of Eloqua (the first successful marketing automation platform) and Influitive. His greatest professional passions include creating new billion-dollar categories in technology and developing new leaders. Today he helps CEOs achieve their full potential in their businesses and their lives as the CEO of Categorynauts.https://www.linkedin.com/in/markorgan/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:05] - Founding Eloqua and marketing automation[07:47] - Origin of the lead generation playbook[10:39] - Getting to product-market fit[16:03] - Genesis of lead scoring[19:08] - Toolkit software vs. opinionated software[24:25] - Pivots and brushes with death are the norm[27:09] - When is it right to build a category?[30:14] - Building a category around an under-served hero[33:51] - Creating a category for the second time[36:42] - Challenges with churn at Influitive[41:05] - Alternatives to VC funding in SaaSResource LinksCategorynauts - Categorynauts is the leading global community of category creating leaders, helping CEOs looking to discover, develop and dominate their category. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Historically, Product-led Growth (PLG) companies have been underserved. Marketing automation platforms, growth playbooks, reporting frameworks, and “best practices” have been largely designed around the needs of their sales-led cousins. But PLG has had a renaissance in the past few years, and all that's changed. PLG now has its own communities, methodologies, frameworks, and tools. Today's guest, Dave Rigotti, has quickly become one of the godfathers of PLG as a thought leader and co-founder of Inflection.io. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Dave Rigotti is an entrepreneur and marketing leader dedicated to furthering the B2B marketing industry. Dave was VP of Marketing at Bizible (acquired by Marketo), Director of ABM at Adobe, and now is co-founder and marketing leader at Inflection.io.https://www.linkedin.com/in/daverigotti/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:39] - What is PLG? [04:00] - Why PLG has gotten so popular recently[05:50] - Reasons Dave focused his new company on PLG[07:26] - Why sales-led software doesn’t scale for PLG [07:40] - Playbooks of top PLG companies[14:34] - Inflection’s data structure[19:12] - Opportunities and challenges of PLG ops[22:46] - Funnels, attribution, and PLG[25:31] - Scoring in PLG[26:47] - Top-down vs. bottom-up PLG motions[29:34] - Dave’s journey from startup to enterprise to startup[33:17] - Sustaining product agility as a startup[35:01] - How it feels to see Bizible not evolve after acquisition[36:06] - How to break the cycle of product stagnation as you scaleResource LinksInflection.io - Product-Led Growth Software - Official website for Inflection.io Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Martech continues to expand and shift at breakneck speed. Hot startups from five years ago have become legacy incumbents. Some platforms consolidate into monolithic suites while other categories break apart into specialized point solutions. AI looms over everything, with potential to disrupt virtually every established paradigm. Who better to guide us through this landscape than Phil Gamache, one of the humans behind the awesome Humans of Martech podcast? Join us for a deep dive into the future of Martech and a behind-the-scenes glimpse at how Phil and Jon produce their show using the latest AI tools. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Phil Gamache is on a mission to future-proof the humans behind the tech and help them have successful and happy careers in marketing. During the day, he runs all things Growth at Pelago and during the weekends you can find him behind the mic on humansofmartech.com. https://www.linkedin.com/in/gamacp/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:40] - Origin of the Humans of Martech Podcast[03:42] - Importance of soft skills in becoming a martech leader[04:33] - Growing an audience for the show[08:00] - Importance of having a specific approach for the show. Enjoying the process of learning through being a host.[11:00] - Use of AI for creating podcast imagery and transcription[17:32] - What do we consider AI-generated imagery to be? [20:30] - Point of view on martech and being platform agnostic[25:21] - Phil’s ideal stack[26:47] - Benefits of a composable CDP architecture[30:17] - Definition of composability in martech[34:27] - Challenges of troubleshooting a composable stack[38:19] - The relative recency of the cloud-first warehouse and the transition to warehouse native tech[40:22] - How much does the tech matter, in the big picture of business? [42:19] - Phil’s take on the role of AI a year from now[44:20] - Propensity modelling[49:03] - Finding balance in lifeResource LinksHumans of Martech – Future-proofing the humans behind the tech - The Humans of Martech website. Click on "episodes" to browse the huge back catalogue by topic. Midjourney - Image generator Phil uses to create the AI artwork for the showInsightface.ai - App Phil uses to incorporate photos into AI-generated photo. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

If you're looking to transition from a technical MOPS expert to a leader - or if you're an existing MOPS leader who wants to up their game - Jessica Kao is the person to learn from.She built a career as an expert MOPS consultant before becoming an enterprise marketing ops leader. Listen to this conversation and you'll quickly see: she's ridiculously good at the business side of marketing operations. She knows how to plan, how to communicate, and how to lead. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Jessica Kao is Senior Director, Marketing Operations and Martech at Cloudflare. She has 10+ years of experience inspiring a nation of marketers through authenticity. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesskao/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:40] - How Jessica defines the mandate of marketing ops. It is the accelerant to marketing. Everything flows through the pipes of marketing operations. [03:02] - How to determine if marketing ops is doing a good job. “Winning” means the CMO views you as a strategic partner and when you’re a bullet point in the board slide deck. But all projects should be aligned to the CMO’s initiatives and marketing KPIs. Marketing ops succeeds when the marketing team reaches its goals. [06:03] - Marketing ops shouldn’t just view themselves as the executor of another team’s strategy. Marketing ops can bring clarity, due to their position of visibility, the data we have, to spot trends, to provide feedback, etc. How do we make use of the data that we have to provide clarity to marketing leadership? [08:47] - Learning to be an internal advocate for the marketing ops team and navigating reluctance to be “self-promotional. ” The acceleration leap is the ability to translate what we do into something that provides business impact. Promoting the work we do is a by-product of bringing that clarity to the marketing team and focusing on the right things. Winning is not completing your tickets - it’s prioritization, doing the right things, providing clarity. [10:43] - The roadmapping process. Using an agile cadence, thinking of marketing technology like a product. Think about how you launch a project and create it. Quarterly planning and monthly sprints. Monthly sprints is the right fit. They have an “above the line / below the line” backlog. In a new company, shifting the balance from ad-hoc to roadmap. Being a consultant is helpful as it gives valuable skills in scoping. [13:54] - Learning to communicate incremental value instead of thinking of a project as needing to be 100% done and complete before delivering value. People get discouraged. Think of crawl/walk/run - crawling is still winning. This way people view MOPS as problem-solvers rather than blockers. Continuous delivery of incremental value. [15:46] - How to determine what should be prioritized. Jessica knows where they need to go in one, two, and three years, and that is her North Star. If you don’t have a roadmap, others will make one for you. Get buy-in from your boss and their peers. [17:23] - Translating features to stakeholder speak - what capabilities are you going to unlock. Quick-wins deliverables roadmap vs. plumbing/architecture/non-sexy roadmap. Jess has an external-facing roadmap...

Everyone is talking about how transformative AI is, but the information is still very piecemeal. There are tons of app focused listicles or cool tricks for ChatGPT, but if you're like me, you don't have time to go looking for ways to put apps to work.So I set out to take a comprehensive look at the business of marketing, breaking it down into the fundamental jobs to be done and creating practical guidance for marketers on how they might incorporate AI into their daily work in each area. This episode covers four main applications that have me excited, but if you visit the link below, you can access an Airtable base with over 35 use cases and over 40 apps. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:30] - Why make this episode[03:17] - Unstructured text analysis[05:27] - Structured data analysis[09:47] - Visual media generation[11:37] - AI and workflow automation[15:09] - AI for creative writing[17:15] - Two visions of AI usageResource LinksA Very Gentle Introduction to Large Language Models without the Hype - A useful primer to AI and large language models.

I follow the attribution software category pretty closely, and sometime in the last 6-12 months it felt like I started seeing HockeyStack everywhere in my LinkedIn feed.They have multiple team members and executives posting regularly, producing unique and engaging content, and they are building in public, sharing tons of juicy details about their GTM strategy.How did a relatively young startup come to appear so dominant so quickly? I invited HockeyStock's CRO to chat and unpack all the details. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Emir Atli is the co-founder and CRO of HockeyStack, the a B2B GTM Analytics platform. https://www.linkedin.com/in/emircatli/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:27] - Origins of HockeyStack.[02:42] - What they saw that could be disrupted in the attribution space: a platform that didn't depend on Salesforce data and that was faster to implement. People buy these tools for two reasons: proving contribution and optimizing. There is most room to innovate around optimization. [04:56] - HockeyStack's go-to-market strategy. Starting with a goal to dominate LinkedIn, with co-founders posting daily. All GTM team members are expected to post. They focus not just on brand awareness but on making marketers smarter. Each team member has their own personality which shapes the content strategy. Finding the balance between entertainment and education. [09:53] - The Flow, HockeyStack's content platform. [10:39] - Sales strategy and process. Importance of the interactive demo. Use of a virtual sales room. Taking a consultative approach to selling. Working with the buyer's pace. [15:41] - Implementation and onboarding process (typically takes two weeks).[17:10] - How to be differentiated in showing value from the product once people buy it. Emphasis on flexibility - no-code dashboard builder, not locking people into templates. [18:59] - Data cleansing and data structure. [20:10] - Using data to tell better stories. Demonstrating what's actually working. [24:51] - Definition of incrementality reporting. [26:26] - How HockeyStack positions itself against competitors. [27:55] - Flexibility of the data model and dashboarding platform. Bringing in Snowflake data. [29:18] - Incorporating self-reported attribution. How many "dark social" touchpoints actually can be tracked. [33:12] - How HockeyStack innovates rapidly on the product. Impact of being in Y-Combinator. [35:49] - Marketing Mix Modelling - what it is and how to use it. Resource LinksHockeyStack - Official Site Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Jill Rowley is a legend in SaaS, with early tenures at Salesforce and Eloqua. As one of Eloqua's first salespeople, she helped shape the category of marketing automation and was also an early pioneer of social selling. Today she is helping evangelize a new perspective on partner-led growth, which she calls "nearbound." Jill and I talk about what it was like selling cloud-based software in the early oughts, helping the first customers to use marketing automation, and what it means to go to market with partners. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest 23 years in SaaS. Early employee at Salesforce (first 100), Eloqua (#13), HubSpot Advisor (2014-2016), Marketo (2018).Loves startups, especially category creators - - in the trenches building Nearbound.https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillrowley/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:23] - Start of Jill's career at Salesforce. [03:08] - How Jill pitched SaaS in the early days of cloud software. Salesforce's guerilla marketing tactics. [04:47] - Moving to Eloqua as employee thirteen. Creating the category of marketing automation. Evangelizing for the importance of marketers on revenue. [10:05] - Early days of service partnerships at Eloqua. Co-selling with David Lewis. [11:54] - Types of service partner relationships. How there can be power-disparities and bad dynamics between smaller service partners and larger vendors. How many companies still view service partners as a source of leads rather than a way to build credibility and influence with prospects. There are bad fit partners. Need to have organized partner ecosystem data. [15:26] - Definition of nearbound. Living in market with your partners. Differences from inbound and outbound. Looking at a practical, hypothetical example: Clari and Hubspot. [20:41] - Addressing potential criticism of the partner-led approach: that it's too slow. Why you can't go to market with 1,500 partners. [24:01] - Why the value of partnerships is far more than leads. Top-down vs. bottom-up partnerships. Why both are important. [29:50] - Partner ops. Reference to Scott Brinker's article (see resource links). Resource Linksnearbound.com | The future of GTM is here - Official Nearbound website. Partner Ops: The forgotten ops that’s suddenly thriving in the ecosystem era - Scott Brinker's article on partner ops. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter