Integrating Product-Led and Sales-Led Strategies at Zapier - Lindsay Rothlisberger

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

Welcome to RevOps FM.

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Today, we chat with Lindsay Rothlisberger,

Director of Revenue Operations at Zapier,

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where she leads a unified team supporting

sales, marketing, and customer success.

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And Lindsay's experience is super

interesting to me because she's

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evolved into a RevOps role from

the marketing side of the house.

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Whereas the norm that I see is still

really for RevOps leaders to come

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from more of a sales ops background.

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So.

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As someone with a marketing

background myself, I'm really

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interested to drill into that.

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And she's also working in a super fast

paced, high volume PLG environment.

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And that brings a ton of interesting

challenges and opportunities for

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things like leveraging automation.

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So we just have a lot of cool

things to dig into today.

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Lindsay, welcome to the show.

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Awesome.

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Thanks for having me.

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I'm really excited to be

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here.

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Justin Norris: why don't we just

start out with, how you think about.

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The scope and the mandate of your team.

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And this is something I think

about a lot as an operator.

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Like, how do you know when

your team is doing a good job?

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How do you know what success looks like?

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What's the sort of North star that

you try to keep focused on day to day?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah.

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So maybe I'll start with the scope

of my RevOps team here at Zapier.

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We, are responsible on the marketing

side for personalization, segmentation,

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and marketing tooling, as well as

things like campaign operations, to

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really make sure our customers are

having the best experience possible,

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or leveraging all of our data.

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in the right ways.

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and then we are also responsible for go

to market efficiency and productivity.

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So like, are we as

profitable as we can be?

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And are we like making the best use

of resources across go to market?

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and then our core like North star

metrics are, around qualified

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opportunities in particular.

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So what can we do from an

operations perspective?

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Whether it be better qualification,

better analytics, Really optimizing

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the funnel to increase the number

of qualified ops that we're driving.

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And then on the other side of

the house as well, it's around

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revenue and sales efficiency.

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So how can we actually make sales

as efficient as possible so that

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we're, opening up sales capacity.

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To, be able to handle and sell more deals.

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and so within that realm, we're

looking at things like automation

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and AI, strategic insights.

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So we have a function focused

on that, tech and tooling.

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So like the underlying infrastructure

to do all of that, and then like.

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Lead and deal management and process, to

make all of that flywheel run day to day.

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so that's kind of like a general

overview of our team and the metrics

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in particular that we're focused

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on And measured

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by.

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Justin Norris: And you mentioned

opportunities, which usually, you know,

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means like a sales led motion, but

you also have, and maybe I don't know

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what , your percentage is, but like

I'm as after customer where I work,

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but we just pay with a credit card.

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We've never talked to a

salesperson that I know of.

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Is that also within your purview or

do you view that as like a completely

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separate side of the business?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger:

it's super interesting.

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So when I joined Zapier four years ago,

we did not have a sales team and I was the

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first marketing ops person to join Zapier.

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So it was really, really interesting

because, I was more focused on that,

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like customer experience and campaign

operations and like, how do we,

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communicate with our customers in

a way that like really makes sense

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for what they need and who they are.

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and then we really only started

transitioning into a, more of the

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sales led motions about two years ago.

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So, There's a whole slew of

learnings from that experience.

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But really then there are two challenges.

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Like you're building a new sales

funnel, figuring out how to

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leverage your vast user base.

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And like, who of those people are the

right sales opportunities and figuring

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out how that all fits together in terms

of process and operations, et cetera.

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And that.

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makeup or scope is the reason

why a centralized rev ops team

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works so well for us at Zapier.

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Just because there's so much movement,

like customers on a subscription

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model can, have a certain planting

type and upgrade on their own.

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And at what point are they

ready to talk to sales?

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And like, we don't want

to cross wires there.

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So the centralized rev ops

function helps us like stay really

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aligned and making sure that our.

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Processes in our customer

journey are like.

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acting in a complimentary fashion.

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it's a really good

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question.

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Justin Norris: So let's, dive

deeper into the PLG side just cause

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it's such an interesting topic.

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I'm used to thinking of like a funnel

from a sales led point of view, you

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have a lead and then they're an MQL

but it's all driving towards sales

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and then sales owns a piece of it.

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Now you've got this thing where

people can choose their own adventure

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and take all sorts of weird and

wonderful paths to purchase.

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How do you think about that

customer journey, from a top

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level, like in the big picture?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah.

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So it's always a work in progress.

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I think with PLG, there are

two main motions that we ran.

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We have sort of our like requested

demo inbound flow on our website.

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So, we actually organically we

have good brand recognition.

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We have a pretty high volume of

folks who come through that funnel

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and raise their hand to talk to us.

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And I think that's a testament to like the

marketing and the initiatives that we do

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among our user base on an ongoing basis.

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But then when it comes to like

our existing user base and we have

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so many different, use cases that

Zapier serves, we have a really large

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breadth of personas that we serve.

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So figuring out how to like.

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Get those folks to the right place

in terms of whether they should be

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talking to sales or whether they

should be fully self sufficient

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has been, a lot of experimentation.

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So we have hypotheses around like,

what types of product signals warrants

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like, higher sales effort or might be a

signal that this is our ideal customer

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for expansion with our sales team.

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So we sort of like canvas our, our user

base and like, for more of those one

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to one high touch efforts via like an

experimentation framework of like, is this

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our ICP for our higher price point plans?

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is this a customer who's sort of bought

in to our product and is using it in a

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ways that warrant, more enterprise level,

product features like admin and security.

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and so we really.

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Don't want to talk to everyone in our use.

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Like not everyone in our user base is the

right fit for a high touch sales motion.

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so it's been a lot of experimentation

to figure out not only like who

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are the right people who are like.

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Most likely to expand their usage

of Zapier across their organization.

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So who are those people?

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And then, what type of touch or

outreach is going to work best for them?

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is it a very high touch one to one sales?

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Is it an automated sales outreach where

rev ops and marketing sort of like.

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personalizes that one to one

outreach because we're reaching

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a pretty vast user base.

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What is their motivation to upgrade

to one of our higher tier plans?

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we've had to learn a lot of that through

trial and error and it's very ongoing.

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so we're always iterating

and improving on, that.

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Justin Norris: And do you

think about, the product as the

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ideal entryway for everyone?

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In other sense, in other words, everyone

should come in, they'll create an

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account, and then we have like a lead

pool that we can observe and see like

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this fish looks like it's going to be a

big fish so we can, try to scoop it out.

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Or are there some people where you really

do just want to drive them directly to the

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request a demo flow right from the outset?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: We do both.

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we're not doing like pure outbound,

traditional like b2b demand gen per

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se, where we're like acquiring lists

of potential customers and like doing

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outreach, we really have to balance like

our price point with the level of effort.

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So that's another, pretty large role

that Rev Ops has played is like, what

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should be a very, like, low touch.

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high velocity sales motion, where

we're closing deals in one or two

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days, because the price point is

just not where it needs to be to do

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that level of hands on, nurturing.

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so we do a little bit of More

so trying to drive inbound.

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So we have our blog, we have, advertising

programs and, and we really try and use

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those to bring folks to us in more of

like an inbound fashion, but then our user

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base is really, Really, really interesting

because we've got a lot of users who come

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in who maybe are using Zapier for one or

two use cases and don't know like all of

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the different opportunities by which and

so for them marketing becomes like how can

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we get them to find their next use case

and when we have enough like penetration

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or usage within an organization.

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Then it, warrants more of like a,

almost like an outbounding, our

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user base, if that makes sense.

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So yes, I would say in terms of

like what you would think of a more

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traditional, like B2B sales motion

with PLG, it's really using our

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product and marketing levers combined.

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To like drive that adoption.

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and then when the customer is ready,

we engage with them with more of

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a one to one human touch effort.

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Justin Norris: Just thinking about it

feels like a great way to run a business.

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is it as rosy as it sounds like if

you had to start a business today,

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would you, do you like this model?

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obviously every motion has its benefits,

but, is it all that it seems like it's

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cracked up to be to do business this way,

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: I do think so.

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come from a more

enterprise B2B background.

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I've been at large organizations And

I do think having a product where

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people can come in and try it and get

up and running it rather quickly and

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solve a pain point that they have,

like it's so much more powerful, I

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think, than what you can do with like

marketing webinars and email nurtures.

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I think the tricky part there are

definitely some gotchas, like as you start

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to expand, market and bring on sales and,

start experimenting with those efforts.

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You have to figure out how

you're like single user project.

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drives intercompany adoption.

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So like where you have multiple

users and you have more people

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engaged with the project.

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it's a really, really interesting

challenge because you almost have to

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look at how can your product drive

more virality within an org to really

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warrant more extensive use of it.

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at least for us, I think for similar

PLG companies who can solve very

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like one to one needs as, as well

as like larger business needs.

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you have to figure that out.

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As you go.

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Otherwise, the sales motion falls flat.

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Justin Norris: maybe to

make it more concrete.

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If we could walk through like

a semi hypothetical example,

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like hypothetical, but grounded

perhaps in real world experience.

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you have a company even of a few thousand

people or even less, you might have

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multiple like people with different

accounts within that same company.

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And so what signals do you look through?

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And then What does the seller do to

like, try to bring that together and

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create a sales led project out of that?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah,

that's actually a great question.

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and I can walk you through exactly

what that looks like for us.

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So, at Zapier, if we have, if we see that

we have multiple accounts within the same

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organization, and when you think of this

on the RevOps side, there was a lot of

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work that we had to do in RevOps to get

our data in a place to be able to do this.

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So like think custom

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objects in the CRM to like sort

of group accounts by company.

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It's giving me chills just thinking

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Yeah, it took a long time to get

where we are today, but at this point

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a sales rep can look in HubSpot.

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We use HubSpot as our CRM Can

see multiple accounts across a

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single domain or a single company.

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And at that point they will be

able to see okay, what context

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do I have at this account?

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Is it someone with enough buying authority

or who may be interested in like having

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a conversation about how we might

consolidate that account into a larger.

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And then also bring more people in

the organization onto the account.

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So then the sales motion becomes okay.

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I've identified these companies

where we have several users.

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, do we have like maybe a

director or an it person?

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In the product.

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And oftentimes that's not the case.

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And then you think of

like multi threading.

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And so your sales motion becomes very

much like, okay, how do I then find

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the it person or the director and

bridge that, So that's one example.

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We also use product signals in other

ways where, for example, if, Rev

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Ops is one of our like key personas.

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If we have someone in Rev Ops, who's.

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Using Zapier for a pretty like

critical CRM integration, but they're

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not really maybe getting the value

out of Zapier that they could be.

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we might engage them one to one and

offer, input into like other automation

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opportunities and, expand the account.

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Yes,

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we've

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Justin Norris: have like a framework

that you give your sellers?

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Like sometimes.

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either when I've been on the rev up side

or I've had some past experiences, a

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pre sale solution consultant, you kind

of know, like, this is what my path

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looks like, like first I engage with

persona one and then I got to get persona

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two on board and then persona three.

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And maybe there's a few different

routes, but you sort of have this

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knowledge of one, two, three.

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Is there something like that?

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Or is every account like a unique

snowflake that you need to figure out?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Exact framework and

trying to map it out in a way that is like

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clear and repeatable for our sales team.

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So what's cool is, I have a

sales enablement person sitting

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within the rev ops team.

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So, our sales enablement person is able to

bridge, not only the process and how to.

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Gaps associated with that, but also

the strategy, around stakeholder

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engagement and engaging the right.

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Users within an account

around what they care about.

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So, yeah, we sort of have a very

like basic framework for like, this

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is what the IT person cares about.

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And you go to them if this is The

playbook, or, this is what the end

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user, what we call, like, the automator

really cares about, the person

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building in Zapier and here's how you

sort of elevate them to engage the

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director or lead of their department.

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So, I would say this is.

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Still very much a work in progress.

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So our framework isn't completely solid.

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but we're starting to make progress

on how that looks like to really

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penetrate within an account.

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Justin Norris: It's a

fascinating challenge a way.

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especially because.

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you could have a sales led part of the

process, maybe with some automation

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involved, and then maybe like a

marketing led part of the process.

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Is your team having total visibility over

all that to like, keep them coordinated?

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Or how do you think about that problem?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: that is

what has become so interesting.

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I think in this world is like the lines

become very blurred between marketing

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and sales because of like our user

base and because it's quite large.

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Sales cannot possibly, engage

everyone who meets our, ideal customer

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profile for a enterprise level plan.

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So marketing really helps to,

like, drive those, meetings or

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opportunities for the sales team.

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but I think RevOps plays this really

interesting role where We can see it all.

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Right.

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So, sales leads their own motions

as well, and they have ideas for how

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they're going to engage customers.

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And marketing has experiments

that they're running.

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And so without unified rev ops, I,

I don't know how this would work

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because, our marketing ops folks, or

we have, I can go back to our team

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structure a little bit, but we have,

three folks dedicated specifically to

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sort of like the umbrella of marketing

ops, and like lead management.

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And they basically own the

process up until, a lead

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becomes a qualified opportunity.

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So they book a meeting and then they

are deemed, qualified as a deal.

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and then our sales ops folks, we have.

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Two people dedicated to like the sales

process and like deal management.

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And those two groups are just like this,

it's actually more crucial for them

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to be aligned in my opinion, then like

for us to be aligned to marketing just

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because, of how quickly that transition

can happen and also like how many

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different motions and experiments were

running, there's just too much risk.

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to the customer for RevOps

not to play a pretty like deep

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role in overseeing all of it.

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Justin Norris: To make that a little

bit more real, what is an example

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or like a mechanism through which.

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, like a day to day basis does RebOps

actually protect the customer from those

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sorts of like inconsistent or weird

experiences that could easily happen.

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: unfortunately it's

probably more manual than I would prefer

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it to be, but I think that's because

we're just moving really quickly and

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trying a lot of new motions and things.

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so we have actually like a, a.

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a small working group, which includes like

a sales person, a sales manager, a sales

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: 00:17:59

ops person, a marketing ops person and

309

: 00:18:03

a marketing person.

310

: 00:18:04

And they form this little tiger

team that, when it comes to.

311

: 00:18:10

Finding opportunities among our

user base there, they've got like

312

: 00:18:15

a campaign plan and schedule.

313

: 00:18:17

And so they try to create a lot of

transparency and like collaboration,

314

: 00:18:22

but revolves plays a pretty large

role in helping to facilitate that.

315

: 00:18:26

and helping to stay somewhat neutral in

terms of What's working and what's not

316

: 00:18:31

so, if we launch a campaign to our user

base, for example, and we drive a ton

317

: 00:18:36

of meetings, but deals are stalling and

they're just not closing as like quickly

318

: 00:18:42

as we would like them to, we have this.

319

: 00:18:46

Little working group that

can say let's diagnose this.

320

: 00:18:49

Why is it because of who we

targeted in the campaign or is it

321

: 00:18:55

because, maybe the message sent.

322

: 00:18:58

a message that wasn't really helpful

when it didn't really translate well

323

: 00:19:02

into the sales motion and what we were

actually, trying to sell the customer.

324

: 00:19:07

So, right now we're sort of

doing it in a more manual, like

325

: 00:19:11

smaller working group style.

326

: 00:19:12

Style way.

327

: 00:19:14

but I've noticed like when Rev Ops

is not involved, you see a lot more

328

: 00:19:18

friction there, like among sales and

marketing of like, Oh, well, we need

329

: 00:19:23

better sales enablement because the deals

aren't closing or, and then marketing.

330

: 00:19:27

So, they sort of tend to

like talk past each other.

331

: 00:19:29

and I just find that Rev Ops can play

like such a strong role in not only

332

: 00:19:34

unifying go to market, but also like,

Offering a perspective that like, take

333

: 00:19:40

it, takes into account the like challenges

across both marketing and sales.

334

: 00:19:46

Justin Norris: Kind of

couples therapist almost.

335

: 00:19:49

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Totally.

336

: 00:19:50

It can be stressful, but it is rewarding.

337

: 00:19:53

I've just found that like communication.

338

: 00:19:56

Is literally the most important skill

that I've needed to have, a RevOps

339

: 00:20:01

leader, at least, it's really RevOps as

a function can be really, really powerful

340

: 00:20:08

at aligning, go to market and driving

just an amazing customer experience,

341

: 00:20:14

it takes a lot of strong communication

and like navigating conflict and all of

342

: 00:20:19

those things, it's definitely something

I've learned in the last couple of years.

343

: 00:20:22

Justin Norris: That is so true.

344

: 00:20:23

Hmm.

345

: 00:20:24

and people think of it in many

ways as like a technical function

346

: 00:20:27

or like a, process function, but,

the ability to get people on board

347

: 00:20:32

and call out those problems and be

like Switzerland, like you mentioned,

348

: 00:20:35

be neutral and be seen as like this

trusted person that can kind of

349

: 00:20:39

arbitrate these conflicting demands.

350

: 00:20:42

Do you find having a unified structure

helps with that because you're not,

351

: 00:20:47

embedded in any one of the functions,

you can be that, neutral force.

352

: 00:20:50

Lindsay Rothlisberger: absolutely.

353

: 00:20:51

I think that was a game changer for us.

354

: 00:20:53

So we only moved to a unified rev ops

function two years ago when our sales

355

: 00:20:59

motion really started to pick up.

356

: 00:21:01

I reported directly into

the CMO prior to that.

357

: 00:21:05

So I was in the marketing ops function.

358

: 00:21:07

so I think it has been really.

359

: 00:21:12

instrumental, in

360

: 00:21:16

growing our go to market and maturing

our go to market really, just having

361

: 00:21:21

the autonomy, I think, to really focus

on like this intersection between

362

: 00:21:27

customer experience and profitability.

363

: 00:21:30

There's no one focused on that

otherwise, teams sort of have.

364

: 00:21:34

Specific goals that they're trying

to meet that don't take into the

365

: 00:21:38

account, like drawbacks, like, Oh,

well, , this is a great motion, but

366

: 00:21:45

our, it's taking our sales team a

hundred days to close these deals.

367

: 00:21:49

And it, that's just not

going to work for us.

368

: 00:21:52

It's not something that we can scale.

369

: 00:21:54

The role RevOps plays for

us is like, how do we find

370

: 00:21:59

repeatability that we can scale?

371

: 00:22:01

And having someone overseeing that

I think has really been successful

372

: 00:22:07

and it's elevated us as a function.

373

: 00:22:09

Like we get a seat at the table because

we bring that perspective, in a way

374

: 00:22:13

that I didn't necessarily get in other

marketing ops roles, at least in my

375

: 00:22:18

experience.

376

: 00:22:19

Justin Norris: Who do you report into now

377

: 00:22:21

Lindsay Rothlisberger: So I reported

into the CRO for the length of our

378

: 00:22:27

rev ops time, since we existed in

the org, but our CRO just left.

379

: 00:22:31

So for now I'm reporting

into our VP of sales.

380

: 00:22:36

And normally at first, I

was concerned about that.

381

: 00:22:39

Our VP of sales is very, very

understanding of the importance

382

: 00:22:44

of the rev ops function.

383

: 00:22:46

And so through this transition, and this

was just like in the last couple of weeks,

384

: 00:22:50

it's actually been interesting cause

I've been more intentional then about.

385

: 00:22:54

Marketing and being more involved there.

386

: 00:22:56

So I'm also like a part of

the marketing leadership team.

387

: 00:22:59

So while I report into sales now,

I am embedded within the marketing

388

: 00:23:04

leadership function to help bridge that.

389

: 00:23:06

And I think that can work long term.

390

: 00:23:08

I'm not sure if that will be

what it is for us long term.

391

: 00:23:11

but I would say reporting to the

CRO did work very well and was

392

: 00:23:15

probably

393

: 00:23:16

ideal.

394

: 00:23:17

Justin Norris: was your CRO overseeing

all the go to market functions

395

: 00:23:20

or was he just a sales leader?

396

: 00:23:22

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yes,

he oversaw marketing, sales

397

: 00:23:25

and support and partnerships.

398

: 00:23:27

So a pretty big, scope.

399

: 00:23:30

Justin Norris: we've touched a

little bit on the structure of your

400

: 00:23:32

team, but just digging into it.

401

: 00:23:34

you Wrote a great blog post, which

I'll link in the show notes about

402

: 00:23:37

your transition to rev ops and you

sketched out and work structure there.

403

: 00:23:40

I don't know if it's evolved

since then, but maybe just walk us

404

: 00:23:42

through the branches of the tree.

405

: 00:23:43

Lindsay Rothlisberger:

Yeah, so it's interesting.

406

: 00:23:46

It has evolved a little bit organically.

407

: 00:23:48

but I'll explain that

a bit more in a second.

408

: 00:23:51

I think what we really wanted to do is we

wanted to have a level of specialization.

409

: 00:23:56

Where, someone could really be

deeply embedded with marketing

410

: 00:24:00

sales and customer success.

411

: 00:24:01

We didn't want to lose that,

like that deep connection with

412

: 00:24:05

what those teams strategies are.

413

: 00:24:08

let me back up.

414

: 00:24:08

We have an operations function

and those are like the day to

415

: 00:24:11

day automators, process builders,

campaign ops, deal lead management.

416

: 00:24:17

but as you've heard at Zapier,

we are pretty experimental, in

417

: 00:24:21

finding out like what motions to

scale from a sales perspective.

418

: 00:24:25

So they're very like agile, I

would say like, lead assignments

419

: 00:24:29

change, prioritization of

leads change quite often.

420

: 00:24:33

So, our operations

function is sort of like.

421

: 00:24:37

Core builders.

422

: 00:24:37

They're the ones who are in the CRM day

to day building workflows automating.

423

: 00:24:42

and then we have the planning

and analytics function.

424

: 00:24:45

And so this is the

smallest part of our group.

425

: 00:24:47

And this is another interesting, nuance

in being at, in a PLG, company where

426

: 00:24:52

we have a really large data org and

we have a really large finance org.

427

: 00:24:57

So we've had to carve out like where

RevOps plays within that, org structure.

428

: 00:25:03

So we actually only have One person

dedicated to analytics across the funnel.

429

: 00:25:10

and they're sort of responsible

for like obsessing over the funnel,

430

: 00:25:13

like where are the breaking points,

where are leads dropping off?

431

: 00:25:16

and again, that's across everything.

432

: 00:25:19

And then we have a

sales enablement person.

433

: 00:25:21

and then we have.

434

: 00:25:23

Somebody who oversees our tech stack,

and this is actually just one person

435

: 00:25:29

probably because she's absolutely amazing.

436

: 00:25:32

but she makes sure that, the data

that we need is sinking in and

437

: 00:25:36

out of our, tools and our systems.

438

: 00:25:38

And our systems are integrated

in a way that facilitates this.

439

: 00:25:43

Great customer experience and motions

that we've been talking about today.

440

: 00:25:48

but within the operations

function, that's our largest group.

441

: 00:25:52

And those are the automators.

442

: 00:25:54

we have folks, we have three folks

dedicated to marketing ops, two

443

: 00:25:58

dedicated to sales ops, and one

dedicated to CS ops, and those 5 are

444

: 00:26:03

very, in sync and have, just a lot of

overlap, coordination and crossover.

445

: 00:26:08

Justin Norris: of the things that occurs

to me is, there's this expression, that

446

: 00:26:11

a friend of mine uses that I really like.

447

: 00:26:14

he talks about, Run the business

versus change the business, whereas

448

: 00:26:18

with like run the business, you're

really executing existing process

449

: 00:26:22

or making adjustments, but it's

primarily about keeping the business

450

: 00:26:26

running forward in its current state.

451

: 00:26:28

Then you have other folks that are

focused on what can we improve?

452

: 00:26:30

Let's figure that out.

453

: 00:26:31

Let's initiate new projects.

454

: 00:26:33

Does that sort of split out that

paradigm neatly between the operations

455

: 00:26:38

team and let's say the person that's

in planning and analytics, or.

456

: 00:26:41

Are, is the operations team divided

between, let's say like day to

457

: 00:26:45

day recurring stuff and then

strategic projects that might change

458

: 00:26:51

the state of business as usual.

459

: 00:26:53

Lindsay Rothlisberger: I love

that way of looking at it.

460

: 00:26:56

our operations team is, um.

461

: 00:26:58

A mix of both, so they're doing the day to

day running the business, but then they're

462

: 00:27:04

also working on larger strategic projects.

463

: 00:27:08

I will say that if we did all of

the projects that our stakeholders

464

: 00:27:13

requested of us, we would never.

465

: 00:27:15

Work on those larger strategic projects.

466

: 00:27:18

So we say no a lot.

467

: 00:27:20

We forced trade offs a lot.

468

: 00:27:23

and, so yes, they're running the business.

469

: 00:27:26

And when I say running the

business, it's more of like.

470

: 00:27:30

deal hygiene and, and making sure

that campaigns are being launched and,

471

: 00:27:36

making tweaks to lead management when

we see a bug come through, et cetera.

472

: 00:27:41

they're doing those things.

473

: 00:27:42

but I would say they're more because

of the stage of growth that Zapier

474

: 00:27:46

is at, they are probably more.

475

: 00:27:50

Aligned with the strategic projects and

more so, prioritizing, sort of bigger

476

: 00:27:56

bets, Ooh, could we figure out how to

solve this drop off point where we have

477

: 00:28:01

people coming inbound and they're not

actually engaging with our chat, we have

478

: 00:28:05

a chat team, a sales team that just does

chat and it's a high velocity motion.

479

: 00:28:10

And.

480

: 00:28:10

And so they might have a project in

marketing ops to figure out how to reduce

481

: 00:28:15

that friction and drive, make sure that

like those leads are not dropping off.

482

: 00:28:20

So they will have like other

strategic projects like that.

483

: 00:28:23

We also have a lot of AI projects that

we sort of like position as strategic

484

: 00:28:28

because we view those as helping us

learn and grow and figure out the

485

: 00:28:31

next phase of what rev ops could be.

486

: 00:28:34

But we.

487

: 00:28:35

Definitely have to make

room for that stuff.

488

: 00:28:37

and that is just like lots of transparency

with our stakeholders, lots of trust

489

: 00:28:43

building, lots of communication about

like why these things are important.

490

: 00:28:49

Justin Norris: So thinking about

that prioritization and kind of

491

: 00:28:51

planning process, is that, like

yearly, quarterly, monthly sprints,

492

: 00:28:57

do the teams have autonomy or do you

centralize it with you guiding it?

493

: 00:29:00

How do you think about where the

team should focus their time?

494

: 00:29:03

Lindsay Rothlisberger:

luckily for us, we are pretty.

495

: 00:29:07

deeply embedded in the

teams that we support.

496

: 00:29:10

So like, for example, we go, I go to

the leadership marketing leadership

497

: 00:29:13

meetings, myself and a member of my team

go to the sales leadership meetings.

498

: 00:29:19

And so I feel like we have a pretty

strong pulse on what the biggest

499

: 00:29:23

challenges are, at a strategic level.

500

: 00:29:25

however, what we tend to do is

operate on more of like a monthly

501

: 00:29:30

commit framework where we have this

overarching roadmap that we create

502

: 00:29:36

on a half yearly basis where we say

okay, these are the big things that

503

: 00:29:41

we need to figure out this half.

504

: 00:29:43

but because of how.

505

: 00:29:46

Agile and new.

506

: 00:29:47

A lot of our motions are, we find that

we, that operating on a monthly commit

507

: 00:29:53

framework and those monthly commits,

they're not exhaustive of everything

508

: 00:29:57

we're doing, but we go to the sales

and marketing and CS leadership and

509

: 00:30:00

we say, these are the two things

we're going to get done this month.

510

: 00:30:03

this is what we're committing to

delivering, and this is the business

511

: 00:30:06

impact that it's going to drive.

512

: 00:30:08

And so that might just be like.

513

: 00:30:10

One or two things across marketing,

sales, and CS that we, we commit to.

514

: 00:30:15

And, we can shift, if something changes,

we don't mind pulling that out or

515

: 00:30:19

getting feedback and swapping things

around just to make sure we're aligned.

516

: 00:30:23

But we've found that planning too

far out, like it just, the roadmap

517

: 00:30:28

gets pulled and changed so much.

518

: 00:30:30

The team loses morale.

519

: 00:30:32

So we found that just being

more agile upfront works for

520

: 00:30:35

us.

521

: 00:30:35

Justin Norris: In a high velocity,

high growth organization, it can kind

522

: 00:30:39

of be a waste of time to plan too far.

523

: 00:30:41

That's what I've observed

524

: 00:30:42

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah,

525

: 00:30:43

Justin Norris: It's not worth the

paper that it's written on anymore.

526

: 00:30:45

you mentioned impact and that can

be something that is difficult

527

: 00:30:50

for some revenue operators.

528

: 00:30:52

To like, like aside from saying we closed

so many tickets or we launched so many

529

: 00:30:56

campaigns or we did so many projects

really tying your work to impact.

530

: 00:31:01

How do you think about that?

531

: 00:31:02

Lindsay Rothlisberger: we use two I

guess, frameworks for how we do this.

532

: 00:31:06

One is did we add new

functionality or capabilities?

533

: 00:31:10

it's a little bit trickier sometimes

to tie to revenue, but if we can

534

: 00:31:14

unlock a huge motion and literally

do something that we couldn't

535

: 00:31:18

do before, like outbounding, for

example, if you don't have the

536

: 00:31:22

tools to do that, you can't do it.

537

: 00:31:24

So we will sometimes latch on to like

features or capabilities as like.

538

: 00:31:30

Business value or business

impact that we're delivering.

539

: 00:31:33

and then we do also try to speak about

our wins under the lens of, additional

540

: 00:31:42

sales capacity or selling time or

like, ROI on marketing dollars spent,

541

: 00:31:49

like we will, Even if it doesn't

have to be scientific in most cases.

542

: 00:31:53

Like I think you can really

get the point across about

543

: 00:31:56

your value as an organization.

544

: 00:31:58

If you're just making sure that you

include that, why was this worth it?

545

: 00:32:02

Because we saved you from hiring another

salesperson basically, because now you're

546

: 00:32:08

working deals that are going to close.

547

: 00:32:11

You're spending, less amount

of time closing those deals.

548

: 00:32:14

we really try and focus on like, what's

the profitability that we drove, like

549

: 00:32:18

whether it be additional sales capacity,

or like, Just time saved, which is pretty

550

: 00:32:25

easy to like, put some math behind and

say like, that equals this in revenue.

551

: 00:32:31

And that doesn't even, include

additional deals when it's literally

552

: 00:32:36

just like time we've saved per employee,

553

: 00:32:39

Justin Norris: And it sounds like

you're also thinking a lot about

554

: 00:32:42

things like, deal cycle length deal

value, I mean, that's one of the

555

: 00:32:47

really nice things I like about PLG

and I've had some past experience

556

: 00:32:51

working for a PLG company myself that

the automations that you can drive

557

: 00:32:56

actually can like directly impact revenue

from a direct response point of view.

558

: 00:33:01

Like you roll out a new

automation and then more people

559

: 00:33:02

put their credit card down.

560

: 00:33:04

And that's a really cool feeling

that, a lot of folks in an

561

: 00:33:06

enterprise context don't always get.

562

: 00:33:08

Lindsay Rothlisberger: 100 percent it's

really rewarding to be able to see, a

563

: 00:33:12

small automation or optimization lead

directly to revenue rather quickly,

564

: 00:33:20

especially for some of the, higher

velocity, low touch motions that We

565

: 00:33:24

just had one very recently where a

marketing ops person was like, Hey, I

566

: 00:33:29

think if we add another, like automated

sales touch for this lead type, I think

567

: 00:33:34

we could drive like a lot of revenue.

568

: 00:33:36

And it was like insane.

569

: 00:33:37

She launched, it was very

small, very easy to do.

570

: 00:33:41

And it like closed a gap and it

equated to pretty significant,

571

: 00:33:45

like additional revenue number.

572

: 00:33:47

So there's just so much opportunity,

I think, like when you have the

573

: 00:33:51

volume and like the funnel to like,

we say obsess over, cause there,

574

: 00:33:57

there's so many like potential drop

off points, which also makes the job

575

: 00:34:00

harder too, because, you really have

to prioritize and make the right bets.

576

: 00:34:05

Justin Norris: So I want to

geek out a little bit on, on

577

: 00:34:07

like technology and data topics.

578

: 00:34:10

cause you're in an automation space.

579

: 00:34:11

Let's maybe start with, you mentioned

you're using HubSpot for your CRM.

580

: 00:34:15

Is that also your marketing

automation platform?

581

: 00:34:17

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yes, it is.

582

: 00:34:19

our tool stack is interesting.

583

: 00:34:20

So we have had to, this was

like such a tough decision.

584

: 00:34:26

Uh, when I we have.

585

: 00:34:29

iterable, which is our email

tool, like our, it's a mass

586

: 00:34:33

personalization email tool.

587

: 00:34:34

It's really good at making hyper

personalized email experiences.

588

: 00:34:39

so we had Arable when I joined,

we're starting to like experiment

589

: 00:34:42

with human touch and sales brought

on the CRM and HubSpot, but we also

590

: 00:34:47

didn't really have a true marketing

automation platform because we weren't

591

: 00:34:51

really doing like B2B marketing.

592

: 00:34:53

We were doing like More

of a like B to C, right?

593

: 00:34:56

Like a more of a one to one.

594

: 00:34:58

so yes, brought on, HubSpot

marketing automation and CRM and

595

: 00:35:04

it's continued to scale for us,

which is pretty, pretty cool.

596

: 00:35:08

and then we use intercom for chat.

597

: 00:35:11

And then, Gong, LinkedIn sales, Nav,

Looker for analytics and Chili Piper

598

: 00:35:18

to help with like our, lead management

and like instant booking capabilities.

599

: 00:35:23

Justin Norris: It's interesting

that you mentioned that HubSpot

600

: 00:35:25

has continued to scale for you.

601

: 00:35:27

Cause I think there is this perception in

the marketplace like, yeah, it's HubSpot.

602

: 00:35:30

It's good.

603

: 00:35:30

But at a certain point

you'll have to migrate.

604

: 00:35:32

And I had a chat with, a fellow named Rich

Archbold, who actually is of engineering

605

: 00:35:36

for HubSpot's own internal GTM systems.

606

: 00:35:39

And of course they use HubSpot too.

607

: 00:35:41

And I asked the same question, like,

does it, was it scaled for them?

608

: 00:35:44

So it means it was scaled for them.

609

: 00:35:46

So maybe there is this,

misperception in the marketplace.

610

: 00:35:49

what have you found in terms of like

scaling your business on HubSpot,

611

: 00:35:51

any challenges, or is it actually

maybe the grass is sort of greener

612

: 00:35:54

over here for some Salesforce folks?

613

: 00:35:57

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah.

614

: 00:35:57

I mean, it's tough.

615

: 00:35:59

Like we constantly go back and forth

and debate, has a great user experience.

616

: 00:36:05

Like we, Yeah.

617

: 00:36:06

And customer experience.

618

: 00:36:08

We really just love the team over

there and just have had a great

619

: 00:36:13

account manager for a long time.

620

: 00:36:15

Technical support.

621

: 00:36:17

and so we've really stretched the limits.

622

: 00:36:20

I would say of HubSpot CRM where.

623

: 00:36:23

We've got custom objects and we've got,

we're using like, all of the new features

624

: 00:36:28

as soon as they release them to like,

be able to customize our sales process.

625

: 00:36:32

But I would say we're, it's hard

for us to predict the future.

626

: 00:36:36

But for now we have fairly simple

and straightforward sales motions

627

: 00:36:43

that we're and proving out.

628

: 00:36:46

And so for our use case, it

works really well for that.

629

: 00:36:49

Some of the gaps that we've had are just

probably mostly around Some integrations,

630

: 00:36:56

just are made, tailor made for Salesforce.

631

: 00:36:59

but for us who use Zapier in our

back pocket for everything, like

632

: 00:37:04

we've been able to use Zapier to like

sort of enhance our integrations.

633

: 00:37:09

For example, with intercom,

like intercom to Hubsan.

634

: 00:37:12

spot is fine, but like we, we have a

pretty customized workflow of how our

635

: 00:37:17

sales team uses intercom and then how

those leads get pushed through to like

636

: 00:37:23

other reps and customer success managers.

637

: 00:37:25

So we, we use Zapier for that integration

or to like augment that integration.

638

: 00:37:31

and again, I think We use

Zapier for a lot of different

639

: 00:37:34

things across our go to market.

640

: 00:37:37

so the combination of, and I

of course didn't even mention

641

: 00:37:40

Zapier as part of our tool stack.

642

: 00:37:43

but it combined with HubSpot

is very, it allows for a very

643

: 00:37:47

customized experience and it's

644

: 00:37:50

working for us.

645

: 00:37:51

Justin Norris: So let's,

talk a little bit about that.

646

: 00:37:53

Cause that's cool.

647

: 00:37:54

And I think, the basics of creating

a zap are probably pretty familiar

648

: 00:37:58

to most people who understand like if

this, then that type of functionality.

649

: 00:38:03

One of the things I'm curious about is

when you start to roll out automations

650

: 00:38:08

at a, a larger company, approaching

enterprise scale, It seems to me that

651

: 00:38:14

it could get hairy in the sense of like,

the left hand not knowing what the right

652

: 00:38:18

hand is doing and zaps contradicting

each other, overriding each other.

653

: 00:38:22

What's the kind of governance or like

building framework, the architecture

654

: 00:38:26

that you put in place to keep that

series of automations coherent.

655

: 00:38:30

Lindsay Rothlisberger: so Zapier now does

at least have like admin capabilities.

656

: 00:38:34

And so we have in our account,

like we have oversight over what

657

: 00:38:39

apps are like connected to what and

what workflows are doing at a high

658

: 00:38:43

level and, reporting around that.

659

: 00:38:45

and so we have a member of our team

owns integrations at a whole and can

660

: 00:38:50

see across all of our integrations, like

what's being updated by Zapier versus

661

: 00:38:55

what is like a native integration or

what might be being updated by our ETL.

662

: 00:39:00

So that's really through like

documentation and having a single, body

663

: 00:39:05

like overseeing that full ecosystem.

664

: 00:39:08

but I would say like the ways that we use

Zapier, in addition to like integrations,

665

: 00:39:16

tied to our CRM are more of like little

mini applications to enhance our CRM

666

: 00:39:23

that wouldn't have competing workflows.

667

: 00:39:26

So for example, we have a series

of zaps that is a little like

668

: 00:39:32

sales enablement, application.

669

: 00:39:35

And what it does is it looks at

all of our like gong transcripts.

670

: 00:39:39

So all of our call transcripts.

671

: 00:39:41

It takes that data.

672

: 00:39:43

It has an AI step that, our sales

enablement person set up that says

673

: 00:39:47

like, okay, look at these calls and give

some constructive feedback for the rep.

674

: 00:39:52

did they nail their negotiation or like

objection handling or like, did they

675

: 00:39:56

talk about the Zapier value proposition?

676

: 00:39:59

and that all goes into a Zapier table.

677

: 00:40:02

That then each sales manager has access

to and can like quickly glance okay,

678

: 00:40:07

what are the learnings I need to like

really like nail down with each member

679

: 00:40:11

of my team and one on ones this week.

680

: 00:40:13

And so that's an example of something

that we built with Zapier that

681

: 00:40:17

customizes our CRM and connect

some of our different tools.

682

: 00:40:22

But I'm not so worried about That

zap conflicting with something else.

683

: 00:40:28

So I think the integration layer is like

one, but then there's also this Sales

684

: 00:40:33

efficiency enablement layer of things

that we use Zapier for that is a little

685

: 00:40:40

bit more the wild west to be honest.

686

: 00:40:42

Like I let the team do what you

need to do, try and figure out,

687

: 00:40:44

let's find some cool use cases here.

688

: 00:40:47

and we haven't had an issue yet,

but, the oversight is important

689

: 00:40:51

definitely for those like system of

690

: 00:40:53

record

691

: 00:40:53

updates.

692

: 00:40:54

Justin Norris: I'd love to see a

screenshot of that SAP you described.

693

: 00:40:56

Cause I was trying to build

something, uh, very similar.

694

: 00:40:59

So you'll save me some time though, like

gong transcript to AI to table, workflow.

695

: 00:41:04

that would be very handy

696

: 00:41:05

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Awesome.

697

: 00:41:06

I'll follow up.

698

: 00:41:07

Justin Norris: I'm really curious

about like CRM data model and product

699

: 00:41:10

signals and data, you mentioned having

a custom object for like accounts.

700

: 00:41:15

Maybe let's just talk through like

how that's linked together and then

701

: 00:41:17

how you're providing visibility on

product signals to, users of the

702

: 00:41:23

Lindsay Rothlisberger: So this was tough.

703

: 00:41:24

when we initially brought on a sales

motion because not only do they need

704

: 00:41:29

access to data to like have the Good

conversations with their customers.

705

: 00:41:33

Like they need to know how their customers

are using Zapier today to be able to have

706

: 00:41:38

an effective like sales conversation.

707

: 00:41:41

So that's one, but then when it

comes to like finding those moments

708

: 00:41:47

in time, when a customer is ripe for

expansion or where like human touch

709

: 00:41:52

could be really valuable, we're super

reliant on product signals for that.

710

: 00:41:57

A challenging thing is we have a

lot of product signals and we need

711

: 00:42:02

them in real time or near real time.

712

: 00:42:05

And that wasn't a capability for us,

in terms of like our data architecture

713

: 00:42:10

until more recently, until we

brought on sales and really had to

714

: 00:42:13

like, be intentional about that.

715

: 00:42:16

but it can be very expensive.

716

: 00:42:18

You can't send all of

that data in real time.

717

: 00:42:21

so you have to be really smart about

like what data matters, what data

718

: 00:42:26

you need in real time versus when.

719

: 00:42:28

Yeah.

720

: 00:42:28

Just 24 hours is fine.

721

: 00:42:30

And then we can use our normal sink.

722

: 00:42:33

what we do, it kind of varies

depending on the product signal.

723

: 00:42:38

but we do sometimes use Zapier to send a

product signal into HubSpot, in particular

724

: 00:42:45

to like validate and see is this signal

leading to the outcomes that we want?

725

: 00:42:52

Like, are those sales

conversations, successful?

726

: 00:42:54

so with the product signal side of it,

that has been looped into that motion

727

: 00:42:59

that I mentioned earlier, where we have

the tiger team who figures out what

728

: 00:43:02

products signals matter, and that's why

it's so important for RevOps to be in the

729

: 00:43:06

room so that we can help orchestrate the

data to do that, because in most cases.

730

: 00:43:11

We don't have all the data

in our CRM necessarily.

731

: 00:43:14

Like at this point we've got the

things that we know matter, like

732

: 00:43:18

someone activated his app or

somebody connected a system of

733

: 00:43:22

record or a CRM, things like that.

734

: 00:43:24

We've had to orchestrate and build over

time once we validated that worked.

735

: 00:43:29

Justin Norris: do you have a separate

table of product signals or do you

736

: 00:43:32

have just fields on the HubSpot

contact record or account record?

737

: 00:43:36

Where does that sort of data live?

738

: 00:43:38

Lindsay Rothlisberger: it varies.

739

: 00:43:40

typically does live in our

CRM at the contact level.

740

: 00:43:44

So at the contact level, a

user takes a specific action.

741

: 00:43:49

it's synced over into HubSpot.

742

: 00:43:51

It might run a workflow that activates a

campaign like a automated sales outreach.

743

: 00:43:57

in a lot of cases too, there's a

whole process that needs to run

744

: 00:44:00

where say it's the signal is a

zap was activated or specific type

745

: 00:44:04

of zap, zap activated by user.

746

: 00:44:07

Send signal to, HubSpot CRM attached

to user, assign a user as a lead to a

747

: 00:44:15

particular sales rep, send an automated

sales outreach email, if that's what

748

: 00:44:21

we want to do in some cases, we might

actually send sales a notification

749

: 00:44:25

and then they will reach out.

750

: 00:44:26

So it depends on the campaign.

751

: 00:44:28

but then we also.

752

: 00:44:29

aggregate those product signals at the

company level or at the organization

753

: 00:44:36

level so that when a rep is looking

at an account it can see like oh well

754

: 00:44:40

this account has five zaps activated

around this particular use case so

755

: 00:44:45

that they can also have like a Good.

756

: 00:44:48

And like productive

conversation with that company.

757

: 00:44:52

but it's taken us a lot of time and

really like focused effort, not only

758

: 00:44:56

to figure out like what signals,

but like how quickly we need them,

759

: 00:45:01

how we're going to orchestrate them.

760

: 00:45:02

Do we want to use Zapier?

761

: 00:45:03

Do we want to use high touch

our ETL or, some other way.

762

: 00:45:09

So, it's been a, definitely

a work in progress.

763

: 00:45:12

Justin Norris: The roles and

responsibilities of different systems gets

764

: 00:45:15

really complex, when you have multiple

options and paths and that sort of thing.

765

: 00:45:22

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah, absolutely.

766

: 00:45:23

And this is another area where we

have a sort of a working group.

767

: 00:45:26

So we have, a data warehouse

engineer and, someone on our team

768

: 00:45:31

and RevOps and, a product manager

who actually like oversees our.

769

: 00:45:36

platforms like internal infrastructure.

770

: 00:45:39

and so they form a little working

group where Revops plays this role

771

: 00:45:43

where we're translating business needs.

772

: 00:45:46

into technical requirements.

773

: 00:45:48

So like in the past, I think without

Rev Ops in this situation, I think it

774

: 00:45:53

would be really challenging for the

data warehouse engineer to understand,

775

: 00:45:57

do we need this in real time?

776

: 00:45:59

Sales is always going to

say, yeah, we need it in

777

: 00:46:02

real time.

778

: 00:46:03

but Rev Ops plays this really like

complimentary role in that scenario where

779

: 00:46:07

we can like really look at like, what

does the business need in this scenario?

780

: 00:46:11

What is the path of least

resistance to get there?

781

: 00:46:15

and how do I coordinate with

data and engineering on that?

782

: 00:46:18

And if you think about to like product

signals and new products, sometimes we

783

: 00:46:21

won't even have the event that measures

that signal available, in which case

784

: 00:46:26

we need an engineer to go build that.

785

: 00:46:28

And so I could probably do a whole session

or someone on my team who focuses on

786

: 00:46:33

this could do a whole session on like

the evolution of that relationship.

787

: 00:46:36

But we do have some standardization

now where we know if it's this type

788

: 00:46:40

of product signal for this type of

campaign, it's going to be seen,

789

: 00:46:43

it's going to be set up in this way.

790

: 00:46:44

So

791

: 00:46:45

Justin Norris: that is so interesting.

792

: 00:46:46

And, we could probably go a lot deeper

down that path, but I know we are out

793

: 00:46:50

of time and I just want to say thank

you for popping the hood and taking

794

: 00:46:54

us inside the engine that you built.

795

: 00:46:56

It's super cool.

796

: 00:46:57

And it honestly sounds like a lot of fun.

797

: 00:46:59

So, I hope it's as enjoyable

as it sounds like day to day.

798

: 00:47:03

Lindsay Rothlisberger: absolutely.

799

: 00:47:04

I have an amazing team, so it's

all them, but it's been a really,

800

: 00:47:07

really fun intellectually challenging

experience to like transition from.

801

: 00:47:13

B2B marketing to something like this.

802

: 00:47:14

But, we're going to see a lot of

companies start to go this route.

803

: 00:47:18

So I'm honored and grateful that I've had

the opportunity to learn in this, case.

804

: 00:47:23

So thank you.

805

: 00:47:25

Thanks for having

806

: 00:47:25

me.

807

: 00:47:27

Justin Norris: so much

for being on the show.