Playbook of a High-Performing Marketing Leader - Thao Ngo

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

every part of the business has its challenges.

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But if you ask me, marketing is one of the

toughest functions to lead successfully.

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It requires a little bit

of everything from you.

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Your job is part art and part science.

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You need to hire coach and retain talent

with this huge range of skill sets that

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you may not even be a master of yourself.

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and then your job is to simultaneously

create demand, capture demand, help

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sales, convert that demand, help customers

success, retain and expand that demand.

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So your job is basically never done.

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So today I really wanted to go deep

into the hidden side of marketing

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leadership, the tips and the tricks,

the trials and the tribulations.

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And so brought to you by the letter T we

have one of my favorite marketing leaders.

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Tao Ngo SVP of marketing at UpTempo.

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Tao, welcome to the show.

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Thao Ngo: Thank you for having me.

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I'm happy to be

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the T today

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And to spill the tea.

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Justin Norris: let's start doing that.

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you've been a marketer for over 20

years per your LinkedIn profile.

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What makes a great marketer?

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Simple question to start with.

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Thao Ngo: Yeah.

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And I would also keep

the answer pretty simple.

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It's the hunger to learn

marketing changes all the time.

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Best practices, techniques,

tools, all that kind of stuff.

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It changes all the time.

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It's not like you go to

school once and you're done.

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So the ability and the hunger

to learn is really important.

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As you enter new industries, understand

new products, new ICP's, et cetera.

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So I think that's really

important for marketers.

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The other thing, especially in tech, is

the ability to embrace change because it's

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having the mental fortitude to survive the

ups and downs of the industry and also A

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lot of changes that happen in marketing.

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You need to embrace that change

in order to be successful.

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And that's what makes it exciting, really.

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And the third thing I think is

important for being a successful

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marketer is the ability to listen.

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So listening to the market, listening

to your boss, listening to customers,

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listening to influencers, just being

that sponge and understanding why they're

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doing things, how they're doing things.

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I think the ability to listen has

carried me so far in my career.

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So I think it's just simply that

ability to learn, embrace change.

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And listen really well.

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Justin Norris: I love that and there

is an interesting kind of left brain,

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right brain dichotomy that I alluded

to a moment ago when we think about the

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sort of learning that you described,

must every marketer be both data literate

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and, curious about people and about

human psychology, or is it okay to

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be more grounded in one or the other?

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Thao Ngo: I think if you're going to

be a marketing leader, you have to have

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both because certainly as a individual

contributor jobs, there is definitely

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a slant depending on your role.

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But as a leader, I think you do

need to have an understanding of

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data and appreciation for data,

as well as being creative and

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understanding how human beings work.

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And this is really why.

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I picked marketing because it was the

perfect mix of data and creativity

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because I had considered being a writer,

being an accountant, and I picked

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marketing because I could flex the

creative side of my brain and come up

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with ideas, but also be able to look at

the numbers and be data driven as well.

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So I think both is really

critical as a leader.

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Justin Norris: So marketers are

just some strange hybrid of a failed

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writer and a frustrated accountant.

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Is that what we're saying?

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Thao Ngo: Well, look out

for a screenplay later.

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I have lots of stories to share.

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Justin Norris: Has this profile changed

like over the course of your career?

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I would assume that 20 years

ago, I data was still very

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important, but has it changed?

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increased in prominence within the

kind of overall marketing skill pool?

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Thao Ngo: Absolutely.

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there's a lot of vanity KPIs we

focused on way back when, and today

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it's much more revenue focused

and being business savvy as well.

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So it's not in the realm

of sales or finance.

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Marketing leaders have to understand

their numbers and understand how they're

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impacting business goals and understanding

the marketing investment and where to

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make smart investments there as well.

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So it's not like a black hole.

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So I definitely think there's more

data, more need to be data driven

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now than 20 years ago, for sure.

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I think that's a good thing.

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Justin Norris: you know, as you see

some people sometimes, and sometimes I

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feel this way myself that we've almost

overcorrected in the direction of data

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from, the old joke about marketing

being the arts and crafts department

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to know we've got to be data driven.

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We've got to, tie everything to

data, be able to quantify and

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measure everything we're doing.

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that can straitjacket you as a marketer.

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Sometimes have you ever felt that,

or do you view that as a problem?

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Thao Ngo: Absolutely.

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I only care about data if

it helps me make a decision.

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So there's nice to have data that

you can have, but if it's not

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actually going to help me make a

decision, then I don't care about it.

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Somebody on the team should care

about it, but I don't care about it.

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So I'll get a 20 slide deck from somebody

giving the analysis on the program.

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I'm like, okay, I only care.

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I spent this much amount of money.

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What did I get back?

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who's paying attention?

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Thank you.

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And it's nice that you have all these

slides, but I only care about that.

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Give me that one slide, right?

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So, for me specifically, I definitely keep

it high level in a lot of things on what

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decisions I'm going to make, because we're

all stretched for time and I don't want

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my team to go down rabbit holes, spending

hours looking at every single click, etc.

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if I'm not going to do anything with

that data, it's a waste of time.

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And we move.

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very quickly on this team.

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So we don't have a minute

to spare on useless data.

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So there's definitely some people

that would probably dig in a lot more.

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I only care about if it makes a difference

to how I'm going to spend my money

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and time and projects and priorities.

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Justin Norris: So let's walk in

a little bit into this marketing

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leadership role that you've held

for a number of years now across a

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number of different organizations.

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So this isn't your first

rodeo here at uptempo.

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How do you think about the

role of the marketing leader?

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what is job number one for you?

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Thao Ngo: Job number one is to

help the company reach the goals.

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So whatever the business goals might be,

I need to make sure that we get there,

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but that the journey is enjoyable.

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That's really important to me.

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And when I say the journey is

enjoyable, I need to have fun.

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My team members need to have fun.

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The customers need to have fun.

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Cause if you're only, turning out

stuff and you're not enjoying it,

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I'd rather just be a writer then.

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Go out, write my novel, write my

screenplay, but it's important for me to

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really enjoy the work and enjoy what I'm

doing and making sure that people for

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sure, learn and progress and perform,

but people have a good time doing it.

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That's really important to me.

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That will obviously change from leader

to leader, but this is why I can put

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in so many hours and I can look at

the details and I care so much and

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people care so much because they really

care about what they're doing and

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they really enjoy doing it as well.

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So for me, the journey is

as important as the results.

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Justin Norris: it's interesting that

you mentioned fun because I think

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not many people would have had that

on the tip of their tongue in the

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sense of what is the most important

function as a marketing leader.

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But it's something that

I really resonate with.

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And I mean, if I'm not having

fun at work, it's very miserable.

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And I'm sure most people

feel that to some degree.

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what is the operating rhythm,

if you like, of your team?

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Thao Ngo: we definitely have

processes for everything.

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So like any other team, we have

campaigns, camping, briefs, kickoffs

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project management tools, standard

meetings, all that kind of stuff.

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But every single meeting we have

and every Slack message we have,

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there is a playful element to it.

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And there's an ease at which we're

conducting our meetings as well.

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And I love going into meeting,

especially with my team.

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And we can just.

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Share and tease each other.

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, I'm being honest, and they know

I'm not being rude or anything like

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that, but I'm just being authentic

to myself, and we can have an honest

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conversation about the copy, etc.

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So everything you do or say and how

you conduct yourself in meetings,

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it has to be Kind of enjoyable.

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Otherwise, it's such a slog.

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So I think if you were to peer

into our Slack channels, you

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would see that all over the place.

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And if you were to look at the edits that

I provide and the comments I provide, you

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would also see that there's a lightness

and there's a playfulness as well to it.

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So that people get a laugh

out of the day as well.

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Justin Norris: Certainly makes it

easier to have the tough conversations

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and, there's not always a hundred

percent agreement on everything.

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at least not in the marketing

teams I've worked in.

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I think where it comes back to as well,

you didn't use this word, but to me.

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It speaks to trust, right?

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Because when you trust each other, you can

have a bit of fun at each other's expense.

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Thao Ngo: Exactly.

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I think there was a book out

called Something About Radical

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Candor or something like that.

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I think some people misinterpreted

that and just began being

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very direct with people.

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But if you don't have that foundation of

trust, then it just becomes rude and mean.

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So that's the thing.

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You have to build that trust with somebody

and they know, where you're coming from.

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They know you just want great work and

they know your personality as well.

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So there's no offense taken as well.

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So I think that's really

important to be able to be honest

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with them about their work.

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And when you make your own

mistakes, I think that's really

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important for leaders to also

recognize when they've made an oops.

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And so people feel

comfortable with it as well.

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I remember there was

this one customer summit.

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I accidentally moved this sign for the

shuttle to the wrong floor, and the

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customers got confused where to go.

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And our field manager at the time at the

company was like, Well, what happened?

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How did it get moved from the right spot?

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I'm like, Who did this terrible mistake?

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This is outrageous.

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And everybody knew it was me.

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I knew it was me, but I'm like, Oh, well.

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It is what it is.

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So to be able to admit your

mistakes also helps as well.

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But yeah, it's all about trust.

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They know I'm going to admit when I've

made a mistake as well, and so it's

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easier for them to also do the same.

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Justin Norris: You know, I was a

consultant before my current job.

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And I saw inside a lot

of different companies.

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And, you know, I chat with people

even now, from different companies.

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How things are going with them,

talking about their careers.

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There are so many toxic environments

out there, where it's just ruled

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by fear and mistrust and politics.

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It can be very cutthroat it's one of the

reasons why, like, I'm looking at a job,

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really look at Glassdoor very carefully.

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it certainly does give you an indication.

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Of things like that.

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This is a really priceless trait, I think,

where you can create an environment for

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people to have fun in where they feel a

certain sense of psychological safety.

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Have you found that as useful as a sort of

almost like recruiting tool or something

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that kind of draw people into the team?

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Thao Ngo: Well, I'm very honest when

I interview candidates or if I'm

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being interviewed for a job as well.

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So if I'm going for a job, I want them

to really understand the environment

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that I can thrive in and my personality.

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And That I'm very outspoken and I

don't like rules and if they have

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a problem with that They'll see

it right away in the interview.

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They'll get my vibe.

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So They know what they've signed

up to if I've come on board, right?

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so if there are companies that

are very political and very

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Uptight or rigid about rules.

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There's no way they would ever hire

me not enough Second, and it's the

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same way when I hire people, too, I

want them to come on board and not

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be order takers, but be marketers.

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Every single person on

the team is a marketer.

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If you're a designer it doesn't matter

if you're a writer, you are a marketer.

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And I'm expecting you to step up and

have an opinion and care about things.

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And while we have fun and we can

be playful, et cetera, et cetera.

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I can also be very direct with my

feedback because I think that's

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really important, getting frequent,

direct, and timely feedback.

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I'm all about that.

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My team definitely knows I don't

hold back and I share the feedback

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freely, but they're used to it.

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And so I want people to feel comfortable

with that before they come on board.

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I'm usually the last one that candidates

speak to in the job process, because I'm

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the one that's trying to scare them away.

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It's like, this is.

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what it's like here.

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We move really fast.

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There's lots of change.

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We have a massive workload.

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We have high standards.

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I get a lot of feedback.

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I'm a very direct person.

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So if you don't like it, it might

not be the right place for you.

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So I'm the scary cop at the end it's been

very helpful for people to understand

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if this is the environment for them.

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Stalker.

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Justin Norris: as part of, you know,

just getting my head into the plan for

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this discussion and how it would go.

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And I know it's creepy, but one of

the themes that emerged from those

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recommendations of which you have

quite a few, and many of them from

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your former team members, people that

you coached, and there was really

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this theme about you as a leader.

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You are paying them very well, or

you're doing something well, either way.

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Thao Ngo: Oh

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Justin Norris: just teasing.

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but yeah they're they were really.

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Really just effusive about how you help

develop them, your leadership style.

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So you're doing something good there.

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What's your philosophy for

coaching developing team members?

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How do you approach this challenge?

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Cause it is a very challenging thing

to do to help develop somebody.

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Thao Ngo: It is challenging.

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I think you have to

meet me halfway, right?

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You have to want it as well.

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It's not like sitting back.

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Oh, coach me to the next level.

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Like you need to do part of the work too.

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So, for me, I always think about their

future, Where do they want to go?

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Because not everybody wants to

be a marketing leader, right?

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Not everybody wants to take

all these rungs up the ladder.

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So it depends where they want to go.

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And keeping that in mind

that's how I coach them, right?

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So if they do want to be managing a

team in the future, I try to give them

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advice and real experience in that area.

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And if they just want to be the best

that they can be as an individual

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contributor, we work on that as well.

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But I always give real examples for every

piece of feedback I have, because one of

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the annoying things I had in my career

where people would say, just don't think

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you're ready yet, or you need to do this.

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I'm like, what do you mean?

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tell me the things I need you

to do, and I'll do it, right?

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So I never like that.

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that.

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feedback was so vague and

there was never real examples.

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So in addition to giving

concrete feedback, I always

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do a lot of workshops as well.

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So I like to give my team

workshops to solve real problems.

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So we just did a workshop on

working faster because one of

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the themes was managing workload.

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So I did that this week and

I gave a workshop with them

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about managing communications.

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There's lots of slack, lots of email.

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Lots of everything.

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How do you manage all that?

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And also workshop on how to

better review and edit things.

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So there's not too much back and forth

and we can get things done faster.

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So I'm a big fan of real

hands on workshops to help

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them overcome these things.

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And also examples, I'll send examples

of For example, if I'm listening

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to a TED Talk and somebody's talked

about how women can insert themselves

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in meetings or whatever, I'll send

that to the women on my team, etc.

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Or if I see an example of somebody

managing a meeting really confidently,

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I'll share that with them as well.

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So I'm always thinking about things that

each person cares about in their path and

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real meaty things to help them get there.

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And I think that's what they appreciate

because I could just do the work.

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But I'm thinking about how

do I get the them to the next

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step that they want to get to.

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: 00:17:03

They don't have to stay here forever.

313

: 00:17:04

They could go on to another company

and be leaders and successful.

314

: 00:17:09

And that would be fantastic.

315

: 00:17:11

And I've done that.

316

: 00:17:11

I built so many leaders that have

worked for me and that makes me

317

: 00:17:16

incredibly happy and fulfilled.

318

: 00:17:18

So they know I care about their next

steps and not just about how they're

319

: 00:17:22

doing at the moment for this company

in this role, and I think that matters.

320

: 00:17:26

Justin Norris: When we talk about

your team, what size of team

321

: 00:17:28

are we talking about right now?

322

: 00:17:30

Just to give people that context.

323

: 00:17:32

Thao Ngo: I think it's a

teeny tiny team of like eight.

324

: 00:17:35

including us.

325

: 00:17:37

So we're living the do more with less.

326

: 00:17:41

We're living and breathing it every day,

So it's always a challenge about what are

327

: 00:17:47

we gonna drop, what are we going to be

fine to let go out the door, et cetera.

328

: 00:17:52

So it is a challenge about managing

workload and expectations for sure.

329

: 00:17:57

Justin Norris: Let's say you have

a marketer that is underperforming.

330

: 00:18:01

Maybe you feel it's missing, key

skills or certain competencies

331

: 00:18:06

or certain mindsets or attitudes.

332

: 00:18:07

Like, how do you approach that situation?

333

: 00:18:09

Because that is a difficult

one, I think, for many leaders.

334

: 00:18:14

Thao Ngo: Yeah, well, if it's skills,

that's so much easier because then

335

: 00:18:17

we'll just get them skilled up, right?

336

: 00:18:19

It's like you have gaps in here and here.

337

: 00:18:21

Let's get you a book.

338

: 00:18:22

Let's get you a course.

339

: 00:18:23

Let's get you trained up on a weekly basis

and then we can see where you're going

340

: 00:18:28

or you can shadow me or you can see how

sometimes I've hired a consultant and

341

: 00:18:33

they will shadow that consultant as well

just to get their skills up to snuff.

342

: 00:18:38

So skills is easy.

343

: 00:18:40

Attitude is harder.

344

: 00:18:42

So if there's an attitude like same thing,

what I've said about order takers, right?

345

: 00:18:48

If they see themselves as I'll do my

job here and I'll just check off the

346

: 00:18:52

task, I'm not interested in that,

There's accountability to your project.

347

: 00:18:58

And if you don't want to understand

what this entire campaign is about, if

348

: 00:19:02

you don't understand the goals of this

project and if you don't understand

349

: 00:19:06

the messaging, Then that's a problem.

350

: 00:19:09

So every person that's involved in

this project needs to understand that

351

: 00:19:14

and needs to care about what happens.

352

: 00:19:16

It's like, done my part, but

does so and so are they ready?

353

: 00:19:20

Or are they prepared?

354

: 00:19:21

Or I see a problem here.

355

: 00:19:22

I should bring it up.

356

: 00:19:24

I always liken it to, cause I

went to business school and we did

357

: 00:19:27

group projects all the time, right?

358

: 00:19:29

You're just, together with four

people, six people, whatever, you

359

: 00:19:33

have to get a group project done.

360

: 00:19:35

And that's how I tell them

it's like a group project.

361

: 00:19:37

It's not like each person is

only doing this thing, but you're

362

: 00:19:40

responsible for delivering this

project and the success of it.

363

: 00:19:45

And you're all going

to get the same grade.

364

: 00:19:47

The prof is going to

give you the same grade.

365

: 00:19:49

So if you don't understand all the

components of it, it's a problem, right?

366

: 00:19:55

And if you don't understand.

367

: 00:19:56

That's also something we can fix and

we can sit down and we can explain it.

368

: 00:20:01

But if there's no hunger to learn, if

there's no hunger to improve the customer

369

: 00:20:05

experience and just do what we've

always done, then that is a problem.

370

: 00:20:09

And it's funny because I also did a

workshop this week for the women of

371

: 00:20:14

Uptempo on how to have hard conversations.

372

: 00:20:17

Because that's also an

area that I thrive in.

373

: 00:20:20

I don't have a problem having

hard conversations with people.

374

: 00:20:23

I look forward to it because I just

need to get stuff done, if someone

375

: 00:20:27

is underperforming they will know

immediately and they will know for

376

: 00:20:32

every single instance that it happens

and the expectations that come with

377

: 00:20:37

that and what they're going to do.

378

: 00:20:39

And I always share my feedback

and I'll say, What do you think?

379

: 00:20:44

Do you think that's fair?

380

: 00:20:45

Let me know what you have on your mind.

381

: 00:20:47

And then you might understand, like,

maybe they're not in the right role,

382

: 00:20:51

or maybe they don't care about this, or

maybe they're having real challenges.

383

: 00:20:55

You've got to hear what

their side is as well.

384

: 00:20:59

But I think clear, timely feedback is

super important on improving somebody's

385

: 00:21:05

performance attitude wise or skill wise.

386

: 00:21:09

Justin Norris: There's kind of

the philosophy of higher, slow,

387

: 00:21:11

fire, fast, a common expression.

388

: 00:21:14

What do you think about that?

389

: 00:21:16

Thao Ngo: I understand it theory.

390

: 00:21:20

I totally get the fire

fast thing in theory.

391

: 00:21:24

I get it.

392

: 00:21:26

It's much harder to do because people

are human beings and you want to give

393

: 00:21:31

people a chance to step up to the plate.

394

: 00:21:35

and improve.

395

: 00:21:38

So it really depends on their

attitude and if they want to improve.

396

: 00:21:42

So I tend to actually fire not

as fast to give people that

397

: 00:21:47

time and space to improve.

398

: 00:21:50

and it's worked, sometimes people

just need that leeway where they

399

: 00:21:55

can just get some stuff under

them before they can get going.

400

: 00:21:58

I want to exhaust every single avenue

possible before I call time of death.

401

: 00:22:06

I want to give them every single

chance to succeed, tools, reading

402

: 00:22:11

examples, talk to other people, working

together, more meetings, feedback.

403

: 00:22:15

I want to give them opportunity

because it is their livelihood.

404

: 00:22:20

It has huge impact on their life

and their self esteem and people

405

: 00:22:24

they might be supporting and people

connected with them, et cetera.

406

: 00:22:28

Justin Norris: think it also has a big

impact if they are getting that feedback

407

: 00:22:32

quickly and early and every single time

because quite often that doesn't happen.

408

: 00:22:36

you have these little things and maybe

as a leader, you're uncomfortable

409

: 00:22:41

or you don't want to invest

the time to give that feedback.

410

: 00:22:44

So it's kind of like a stone in

your shoe or something, and then

411

: 00:22:46

it just gets bigger and bigger.

412

: 00:22:47

And then people just get walloped

like at performance review time or.

413

: 00:22:51

Crushing surprise.

414

: 00:22:53

Like what?

415

: 00:22:54

Like, why didn't you say

416

: 00:22:54

anything sooner?

417

: 00:22:55

Thao Ngo: Blindsided because they

don't have the opportunity to change.

418

: 00:22:59

And I don't think that's fair.

419

: 00:23:01

And that's why I'm really famous for

saying, Hey, do you have five minutes?

420

: 00:23:06

if there's a meeting that's

gone sideways, and I don't, Like

421

: 00:23:10

something that has heard all slack.

422

: 00:23:12

I'm like, Hey, do you have five minutes?

423

: 00:23:13

And they don't like, you know, those

five minutes might not be enjoyable.

424

: 00:23:16

Might be terrible, but I can't let it go.

425

: 00:23:20

I need to tell you immediately

what I didn't like, why I didn't

426

: 00:23:24

like it, what we need to change.

427

: 00:23:26

So you have the opportunity to change it.

428

: 00:23:28

Justin Norris: But what I have noticed

and feedback is a big part of the

429

: 00:23:31

work culture where I am as well.

430

: 00:23:32

And so you really try to practice that

at bare minimum on a weekly basis.

431

: 00:23:37

When you normalize giving that

feedback often, it just becomes this

432

: 00:23:42

normal corrective, little nudges.

433

: 00:23:45

And that's way better than keeping

your cards close to your chest.

434

: 00:23:49

And then as you say, blindsided

performance for a few time

435

: 00:23:53

or just something explodes.

436

: 00:23:55

Thao Ngo: And there's big feedback

and there's little feedback, so

437

: 00:23:58

you also have to give people an idea

of when it's like, oh, this is just

438

: 00:24:02

like a minor thing and this is like

a problem and we need to talk about

439

: 00:24:06

it because I'm about to lose my mind.

440

: 00:24:08

And I do say that and then they're

like, oh, she said lose her mind.

441

: 00:24:11

That's a bad sign.

442

: 00:24:13

So I have said, for example,

You did an a plus job.

443

: 00:24:18

I had some minor suggestions

for future, but keep in mind,

444

: 00:24:22

this was a plus full stop.

445

: 00:24:24

So then they can understand, Oh my God.

446

: 00:24:26

Okay.

447

: 00:24:26

I feel good.

448

: 00:24:27

And these are just minor things, right.

449

: 00:24:29

Versus the more serious Feedback.

450

: 00:24:31

Justin Norris: So let's say

you're building your marketing

451

: 00:24:34

team from scratch today.

452

: 00:24:35

You know, you've got a

handful of draft picks here.

453

: 00:24:38

What roles would be your

first, second and third hires?

454

: 00:24:42

Thao Ngo: That's pretty easy.

455

: 00:24:43

No matter where you're at, the

executive team and board will

456

: 00:24:46

want accurate numbers immediately.

457

: 00:24:48

And they need to be done right.

458

: 00:24:50

So I need MOPS on first and they need

to be able to do campaign execution

459

: 00:24:56

and maybe manage the site as well.

460

: 00:24:58

So whenever there's a small team,

you're wearing multiple hats.

461

: 00:25:02

So MOPS first for sure, because

I can't spend my time doing that.

462

: 00:25:05

Secondly, product marketing for

sure, because we need to have the

463

: 00:25:09

right messages and understand the

market and understand how we're

464

: 00:25:13

going to market in order to have.

465

: 00:25:15

chance at succeeding, right?

466

: 00:25:18

And they will also double as writing

marketing content too, Two hands.

467

: 00:25:23

And then third is demand marketer.

468

: 00:25:25

We need somebody to run the programs,

run the ads, and also be able to write.

469

: 00:25:30

So those are the top three roles

that I will hire in that order because

470

: 00:25:34

it can outsource everything else.

471

: 00:25:35

I can outsource design, outsource

writing, outsource web dev,

472

: 00:25:38

outsource SEO, outsource field.

473

: 00:25:41

I can do all that.

474

: 00:25:42

Justin Norris: And right now you

are reporting to CMO, Jim Williams,

475

: 00:25:49

who another great marketer.

476

: 00:25:50

I've known him a little

bit from some of his

477

: 00:25:52

work in the past, some say,

478

: 00:25:53

maybe

479

: 00:25:54

you have a fun relationship with

him that you've alluded to how

480

: 00:25:57

do you divide responsibilities?

481

: 00:25:59

Cause you have kind of, in essence,

you're both, you know, marketing leaders.

482

: 00:26:02

It's not a huge marketing team.

483

: 00:26:03

How do you think about dividing

up the pie between you and Jim?

484

: 00:26:07

Thao Ngo: It is unusual

and it's not by design.

485

: 00:26:12

It was just that I got hired at Allocadia,

then we got acquired by Brand Maker

486

: 00:26:18

who was hiring Kim and then Hive9 came.

487

: 00:26:20

So these three companies came together

and then we're like, oh there's two of us.

488

: 00:26:25

Hey, hi.

489

: 00:26:26

So I, Formally report into

him, but I think we boss each

490

: 00:26:30

other around equal amounts.

491

: 00:26:32

I think we're pretty good that way

so he takes care of product marketing

492

: 00:26:37

That's really his background product

marketing sales development team as well

493

: 00:26:42

as marketing operations So he actually

takes those portfolios and then I take

494

: 00:26:47

demand content, customer marketing,

field marketing, and corporate comms.

495

: 00:26:52

So what people would think of

as traditional marketing, and

496

: 00:26:56

that's how we split it up.

497

: 00:26:57

But we speak regularly

at least twice a week.

498

: 00:27:02

And so we're in the loop on everything

that we're doing, but that's

499

: 00:27:06

basically how we divvy things up.

500

: 00:27:08

And there's a lot of work to do just.

501

: 00:27:14

Splitting that up.

502

: 00:27:15

Justin Norris: And so it's an effective

partnership, it sounds like, not that

503

: 00:27:17

you can necessarily say if it wasn't,

but it sounds like it sounds like it is.

504

: 00:27:23

Thao Ngo: For the moment, it

is an effective partnership.

505

: 00:27:26

Yes.

506

: 00:27:27

And that's I think really key in

terms of the environments and the

507

: 00:27:31

managers that I thrive under is just.

508

: 00:27:35

Let me do my thing.

509

: 00:27:36

That's really important to me.

510

: 00:27:38

I mean, we'll have our

debates, which is great.

511

: 00:27:41

You get the best ideas out

of them and, 1 percent of the

512

: 00:27:44

time he's right, which is fine.

513

: 00:27:46

But just in general,

just get out of my way.

514

: 00:27:49

Let me do my thing, And I think our

backgrounds in B2B marketing and we're

515

: 00:27:53

aligned on the kind of DNA that we want

on this marketing team and the kind of

516

: 00:27:58

marketing that impresses us as well.

517

: 00:28:01

So I think it's good

being aligned that way,

518

: 00:28:04

Justin Norris: What keeps you up at night?

519

: 00:28:06

professionally speaking,

what's your biggest, what do

520

: 00:28:09

your night terrors look like?

521

: 00:28:12

Thao Ngo: you know, so funny.

522

: 00:28:13

Cause I don't get a lot

of sleep to begin with.

523

: 00:28:16

Um, I don't know that I'm the kind

of person that worries like that

524

: 00:28:22

because, you know, when I am up,

it's because I'm finishing off work.

525

: 00:28:26

Because I love it so much.

526

: 00:28:29

I sound like such a nerd.

527

: 00:28:30

But I am up late doing a lot of

work because I love what I'm doing.

528

: 00:28:35

I love the projects and I

don't really worry as much.

529

: 00:28:40

the thing that's tricky

is, Results can take time.

530

: 00:28:46

So I know I'm doing the right things.

531

: 00:28:48

I know we're doing the right motions,

the right programs, and we're seeing

532

: 00:28:51

the qualitative feedback come in.

533

: 00:28:53

And it just takes time.

534

: 00:28:56

And I just need everybody just to

hold on because everybody wants

535

: 00:29:00

immediate results and any kind of

dip and people are freaking out.

536

: 00:29:03

And we'll just calm down.

537

: 00:29:04

I know this is the right thing.

538

: 00:29:06

So it's just like, anything.

539

: 00:29:07

If you're taking your health seriously

and you want to be healthier, well

540

: 00:29:12

you're gonna have to go to the gym, you

gotta sleep, you gotta eat the right

541

: 00:29:15

foods, and work out, and drink water,

and all of that takes time, right?

542

: 00:29:20

Everything that is worth

having Take some time.

543

: 00:29:25

So I wouldn't say it keeps me

up, but people just need to be a

544

: 00:29:30

little bit more patient and know

that we're doing the right thing.

545

: 00:29:33

And that's what matters doing the right

thing, doing the right programs and

546

: 00:29:37

not going for the quick fix because

everybody else is doing that way.

547

: 00:29:41

And I don't know that's

the right path to success.

548

: 00:29:44

Justin Norris: Yeah, and that's a

big topic that I want to dive into.

549

: 00:29:46

But first I want to maybe just

understand, you talk about, you know,

550

: 00:29:49

you know you're doing the right thing.

551

: 00:29:51

of programs and channels for the year.

552

: 00:29:54

How do you think about

that planning process?

553

: 00:29:56

I mean, that's up tempo is like

a marketing planning execution.

554

: 00:29:59

So offers is very much

555

: 00:30:00

in your company DNA.

556

: 00:30:02

What does that look like for you

at the beginning of the year?

557

: 00:30:04

You know, you just get a number

from finance or walk us through

558

: 00:30:07

what that process looks like.

559

: 00:30:08

Thao Ngo: I love planning

personally because it's the

560

: 00:30:12

part in your marketing career.

561

: 00:30:14

You're never really involved

with when you're junior, right?

562

: 00:30:17

You just get kind of told what to do.

563

: 00:30:19

I'm like, wow, I'm in charge now.

564

: 00:30:20

This is great.

565

: 00:30:21

You're like the holder

of your destiny, right?

566

: 00:30:24

So it's really always exciting to me.

567

: 00:30:26

And that's when the mix of

data and creative get together.

568

: 00:30:30

But we follow a standard

process and we're still not ICP.

569

: 00:30:35

So we're not enterprise, like the

complex, large marketing organizations

570

: 00:30:40

that use our software or that

follow our consulting, et cetera.

571

: 00:30:43

So we're still a small team, so

it's a little bit easier, but

572

: 00:30:48

essentially it's the same steps.

573

: 00:30:49

So everything comes from what the

business goals are, what are the

574

: 00:30:53

targets it's going to be the next

year, and then we get a rough.

575

: 00:30:58

Marketing budget number to kind

of work with as a scratch pad.

576

: 00:31:02

I will say, I was like, no we'll

start with that and say where we are.

577

: 00:31:06

And then we talk about, okay, what

are the marketing goals that actually

578

: 00:31:09

connect to those business goals?

579

: 00:31:11

Instead of the things that we want to

do, we want to make sure we're grounded

580

: 00:31:15

in things that matter to the company.

581

: 00:31:17

So we set that if that's a

conversation that I have with my

582

: 00:31:20

CMO, and then we talk about marketing

strategy and things that worked.

583

: 00:31:25

Last year, things that didn't

work, things that we know we have

584

: 00:31:29

to do, things that are a gap.

585

: 00:31:31

So we talk about the major initiatives

and priorities that we want to do in

586

: 00:31:36

order to meet the marketing goals.

587

: 00:31:39

And then we think about the large

campaigns that we want to run.

588

: 00:31:44

For each one of those goals that

ladder up to the marketing goals that

589

: 00:31:48

ladder up to the business goals, too.

590

: 00:31:52

And then we do high level

campaign planning with the team.

591

: 00:31:55

So we talk to them about business

targets the marketing goals.

592

: 00:31:59

Laddering up to that the strategy and

then the big campaign themes and then

593

: 00:32:03

we get to work with the team in terms of

fleshing that out a high level schedule by

594

: 00:32:10

month of when those programs will go live.

595

: 00:32:13

And then we do a.

596

: 00:32:14

Back and forth dance with

finance on the budget.

597

: 00:32:17

So we do have like a best guess top down.

598

: 00:32:20

And then we do bottoms up really

looking at the nitty gritty on what

599

: 00:32:25

that might take and then see where

the numbers fall out and shake out.

600

: 00:32:29

So then that's a negotiation with finance.

601

: 00:32:32

And if there's a major change that

budget thankfully, that also goes

602

: 00:32:37

Changes the targets that we have as well.

603

: 00:32:40

So we're not beholden to these massive

goals of our budgets are going to

604

: 00:32:45

be cut like a huge amount as well.

605

: 00:32:48

And then there's the socialization of it.

606

: 00:32:51

So, I mean, we're a smaller company, but

I've worked in bigger companies where you

607

: 00:32:56

really do have to just talk to everybody,

make sure they understand the marketing

608

: 00:33:01

strategy, the priorities, what we won't be

doing and how that impacts the business.

609

: 00:33:06

Their organization, and that's

a lot of face time as well.

610

: 00:33:10

So I usually do that with a lot of

leaders internally before we actually

611

: 00:33:15

unveil it to the rest of the company.

612

: 00:33:17

So I've already listened to them,

heard their concerns, shared.

613

: 00:33:21

Why we're doing it this way, et cetera.

614

: 00:33:24

And the way that we roll it out,

at least an uptempo in the company,

615

: 00:33:28

our sizes, we record a short video.

616

: 00:33:31

It's a 20 minute video between

myself and Jim that explains.

617

: 00:33:38

The goals and how we think

we're gonna achieve that.

618

: 00:33:40

And at the end, we

actually do a product demo.

619

: 00:33:44

So we open up the up temple tool

and show them the plan that we

620

: 00:33:48

have in the tool and the marketing

investment and the calendar as well.

621

: 00:33:52

So we drink our own champagne

internally, and we want everybody

622

: 00:33:55

in the company to understand.

623

: 00:33:57

This is how marketing

internally uses it as well.

624

: 00:34:01

And then we circulate that around

to everybody and they're free to ask

625

: 00:34:06

questions and comment, et cetera.

626

: 00:34:09

But it's always there, that recording

and the PowerPoint deck, and then

627

: 00:34:13

the plan and the uptempo tool.

628

: 00:34:15

And then it's executing the

campaigns, which I think is a lot

629

: 00:34:18

more straightforward in terms of

brief kickoff and project management.

630

: 00:34:22

of course, coming back and measuring

that inside the tool as well.

631

: 00:34:26

So, I think it is the same steps that

our customers should be taking a much

632

: 00:34:34

larger scale and much more complex,

of course, but that's how it goes.

633

: 00:34:38

And I really enjoy the whole process of

planning because half of it is scientific.

634

: 00:34:44

The other half of it is creative, right?

635

: 00:34:47

Justin Norris: And when you're building

that mix, there are Often certain

636

: 00:34:51

programs that are just always on,

like maybe like an SEM program, you

637

: 00:34:54

continually optimize and manage it.

638

: 00:34:55

And then you may have some campaigns that

are a bit more direct response, and then

639

: 00:34:59

you may have some campaigns that are more.

640

: 00:35:01

Let's call it demand

creation or brand awareness.

641

: 00:35:03

The terminology, can vary

depending on your preference.

642

: 00:35:06

How do you think about an

intelligent blend of things that

643

: 00:35:09

are, predictable all the way up to

like what you alluded to before?

644

: 00:35:14

We think this is going to yield

results down the line, but it's not

645

: 00:35:17

like an immediate put a dollar in, get

a buck 25 out, something like that.

646

: 00:35:21

Thao Ngo: Yes.

647

: 00:35:21

So we do have bread and butter

programs that have worked in the past.

648

: 00:35:27

So we just up the ante in terms of maybe

having more of them or making the topics

649

: 00:35:33

even more closely aligned to topics that

we care about or maybe selecting different

650

: 00:35:38

types of partners or customers to involve.

651

: 00:35:43

So I would say it is probably 50 50.

652

: 00:35:48

Which is definitely riskier than most.

653

: 00:35:51

So 50 percent are programs that

we know work and 50 percent

654

: 00:35:54

are, Hey, let's take a gamble.

655

: 00:35:56

Because, One of the things I'm

really good at is selling something.

656

: 00:36:00

So if I believe in a program and

I want it to happen, I'm really

657

: 00:36:05

good at getting people on board.

658

: 00:36:07

So that's what I love is like,

Hey, I think this will work.

659

: 00:36:11

Not only does it sound good and it's

creative and whatever, but these are the

660

: 00:36:15

real reasons why I think it would work.

661

: 00:36:18

And that's what's exciting.

662

: 00:36:20

Let's just change it up and

see where the chips lie.

663

: 00:36:24

Justin Norris: It's a good

transition to the subject.

664

: 00:36:25

I'm going to call it influencer marketing.

665

: 00:36:27

And I don't know if you think

of it that way, but one of the

666

: 00:36:29

reasons why we know each other

and why I think many people in the

667

: 00:36:33

ops community know you is through

some of the programs that you've run

668

: 00:36:38

with folks like Daryl Alfonso, or more

recently, I've actually been involved.

669

: 00:36:41

You've sponsored me.

670

: 00:36:42

Thank you.

671

: 00:36:42

to be involved in a really fun program.

672

: 00:36:44

We're, you know, we're giving

takes, you've got six different

673

: 00:36:46

marketing ops leaders giving takes

on different topics every month.

674

: 00:36:49

We're recording that the huddles

with Daryl, you know, have been

675

: 00:36:53

a huge success, at least in terms

of engagement with the community.

676

: 00:36:56

You've got like hundreds of people

coming to them at various points in time.

677

: 00:37:01

How did you get onto that train?

678

: 00:37:03

Where'd you get that idea from?

679

: 00:37:04

And how would you think

about those programs?

680

: 00:37:06

How are they viewed internally?

681

: 00:37:07

Maybe just walk us through

like, what do those mean to you?

682

: 00:37:10

Thao Ngo: think it's coming from

what I said before about being

683

: 00:37:13

authentic and enjoying the journey.

684

: 00:37:16

Cause I always put myself in the place

of our prospect or customer and there

685

: 00:37:22

was just a ton of webinars and eBooks

out there that were super boring.

686

: 00:37:26

So I'm like, Oh my God, I want

to put another one out there.

687

: 00:37:28

I want to do something interesting.

688

: 00:37:30

So it's more fun for me as well.

689

: 00:37:33

And right now, people trust each

other, not only analysts and reviews

690

: 00:37:38

or whatever, but they just trust their

own community and people they respect.

691

: 00:37:43

So we needed to, Get brand awareness on

Uptempo because it's a new brand with

692

: 00:37:49

the three companies coming together.

693

: 00:37:50

We didn't have a massive budget as well.

694

: 00:37:54

So I need to punch above my weight.

695

: 00:37:56

And it was like prison yard rules.

696

: 00:37:58

Like you find the biggest

guy and you fight him, right?

697

: 00:38:02

And that's what I did with Daryl, except

he was really nice So I reached out

698

: 00:38:07

to him and said, Hey, do you want to?

699

: 00:38:10

Talk about things that we can do together.

700

: 00:38:12

This is what we're all about.

701

: 00:38:14

Like, I don't think I wrote anything

that was particularly mind bending,

702

: 00:38:18

but It was authentic to my voice.

703

: 00:38:20

And he's so nice, and he responded.

704

: 00:38:23

It was like a cold pitch.

705

: 00:38:24

And I gave him an idea that I had

because I've seen this work with CMOs.

706

: 00:38:30

There's a CMO live event that happens on

a weekly basis, and it's quite popular.

707

: 00:38:36

And I thought, I don't think there's

one for marketing operations.

708

: 00:38:39

And I think that.

709

: 00:38:40

People are challenged with the same

things and going through the same

710

: 00:38:44

hardships and there's an opportunity for

people to have a safe space to share.

711

: 00:38:49

So we were like, okay, well,

let's try this thing for three

712

: 00:38:52

months and see what happens.

713

: 00:38:53

And it was so interesting to see, because

I was like, who's going to speak up,

714

: 00:38:59

maybe people aren't going to speak up.

715

: 00:39:01

But I was so surprised we couldn't,

we typically don't get through five.

716

: 00:39:05

Discussion topics in an hour because

there's so much participation.

717

: 00:39:10

So many people have Things

to say or questions and of

718

: 00:39:13

course the chat is just crazy.

719

: 00:39:14

It can't keep up with

that So it seemed to work.

720

: 00:39:17

just getting people to be real and

to speak frankly and Seems to work.

721

: 00:39:23

So let's continue doing that and let's

think about other people in the community

722

: 00:39:29

that are respected that have opinions that

can weigh in on different topics as well.

723

: 00:39:35

So that's how Mops Unplugged came to be

as well, because I just really wanted to.

724

: 00:39:41

Elevate different voices as

well in the MOPS community.

725

: 00:39:45

So I like the idea of different cohorts

for six months and it's the kind of thing

726

: 00:39:50

that I would like to consume out there.

727

: 00:39:53

That's how I want to receive information.

728

: 00:39:55

It's like people who have been

there, done that, their opinions.

729

: 00:40:00

That's more interesting

to me than anything else.

730

: 00:40:04

And even our customer webinars

that we do on planning, we had

731

: 00:40:08

Ikea and HubSpot just say, Hey!

732

: 00:40:11

This is how we do it.

733

: 00:40:13

These are the challenges we

had, and this is how we manage

734

: 00:40:16

it, and this is where we're at.

735

: 00:40:18

So people are interested in that, the how.

736

: 00:40:20

Show me the how.

737

: 00:40:21

Show me what's really happening,

instead of things that are a little

738

: 00:40:25

bit too dry and theoretical and, right?

739

: 00:40:29

So, it's about thinking about how you'd

handle being in prison, basically.

740

: 00:40:35

Justin Norris: you touched on

something that I really care a lot

741

: 00:40:38

about, which is like, what, type

of content would I want to consume?

742

: 00:40:42

you know, you're lucky in a sense

that you're a marketer and you're

743

: 00:40:46

selling to marketers and you're

talking to marketers or, you know,

744

: 00:40:48

people within that discipline.

745

: 00:40:49

So that is a plus already.

746

: 00:40:51

But something I think about a lot

and, you know, in my kind of day

747

: 00:40:54

job, we're selling to a learning

persona, but it's the same idea.

748

: 00:40:56

what would they want to consume?

749

: 00:40:57

And I think there's this tendency we

have as marketers to almost like view

750

: 00:41:02

what we do is this like industrial

process where we can like bring

751

: 00:41:05

people in and like nurture, and like

752

: 00:41:07

move them along this conveyor

belt, like a lump of ore or

753

: 00:41:10

something getting refined.

754

: 00:41:12

And just giving people something that

is fun and valuable and giving them a

755

: 00:41:16

space to connect and talk about their

shared challenges and pains and, vent

756

: 00:41:21

a little bit and you don't record them.

757

: 00:41:23

It's not like your typical webinar

758

: 00:41:25

Thao Ngo: Right.

759

: 00:41:26

Justin Norris: you know.

760

: 00:41:27

Thao Ngo: No sales deck, no sales

pitches, no recording and I've

761

: 00:41:31

had salespeople try to come on.

762

: 00:41:33

I'm like, sorry, this is like just for

MOPS or people that are responsible

763

: 00:41:38

for the MOPS portfolio and I don't

let my own salespeople attend.

764

: 00:41:43

So they're shut out But the thing

is that keeps the integrity of

765

: 00:41:48

the conversations that you have, right?

766

: 00:41:50

That it truly is a safe space.

767

: 00:41:53

And what you said before about like,

we always think about everything

768

: 00:41:57

in the way that it should work.

769

: 00:41:59

Like, hey, I'll send out an 8 hour email.

770

: 00:42:00

Email nurture program or 12 and at the end

of it, they're going to be ready to buy.

771

: 00:42:05

It's like, that's not really how it works.

772

: 00:42:07

No matter how compelling your emails

or messages are, you just have to be

773

: 00:42:12

ready to meet people where they are.

774

: 00:42:14

So all you can do in the meantime is

make sure they understand who you are

775

: 00:42:20

and you're providing value with them.

776

: 00:42:22

And when they are ready, they're

like, Oh, well, wait a minute.

777

: 00:42:25

I know this uptempo company.

778

: 00:42:27

I have a planning challenge.

779

: 00:42:27

And shout out.

780

: 00:42:28

Contact them, but I don't think it's as

easy as this magical eight email nurture,

781

: 00:42:36

Justin Norris: You alluded to before the

challenge about getting people to just

782

: 00:42:40

hold on With these sorts of initiatives.

783

: 00:42:42

There is this Urgency that people

have and it's understandable.

784

: 00:42:47

So you mentioned being very

good at selling things.

785

: 00:42:49

How do you do that?

786

: 00:42:49

How do you explain your strategy and

create this space and this freedom to say,

787

: 00:42:53

like, we're going to need to run these

huddles for like six or nine months before

788

: 00:42:56

we start to see people coming in and,

you know, be able to connect those dots.

789

: 00:43:01

How do you give yourself that freedom?

790

: 00:43:02

Thao Ngo: Well, I do share the

numbers and the survey results and

791

: 00:43:07

the comments after each event as well.

792

: 00:43:09

And people can see the energy with

each event and the numbers and the

793

: 00:43:15

comments that we get from people.

794

: 00:43:17

And.

795

: 00:43:18

It is an indication that we're doing

something right and we're giving back

796

: 00:43:22

something of value to the community.

797

: 00:43:24

And when you do look at leads that

come in, or opportunities that are

798

: 00:43:28

closed or opportunities in flight,

you can see their journey and.

799

: 00:43:33

It's always involving something to do

with our offense or our content, right?

800

: 00:43:38

And maybe it's not the first thing or the

last thing or whatever it is, but it is

801

: 00:43:41

part of their journey in understanding

up tempo and eventually buying us.

802

: 00:43:46

It's an important part of it.

803

: 00:43:47

And I always think about

it as like a soccer team.

804

: 00:43:50

When you're on a soccer team

and you win a game, you win.

805

: 00:43:55

It's never like, Oh, defense won it or

strikers won it or midfields won it.

806

: 00:44:00

It's like, we did the plays together

to create the right place to score.

807

: 00:44:07

It's never like, Oh, the strikers scored.

808

: 00:44:09

And that's what won the game.

809

: 00:44:11

It's like us as a team work

together on a strategy.

810

: 00:44:15

We each played hard.

811

: 00:44:16

We each had our roles on the field.

812

: 00:44:19

And that's what won the game.

813

: 00:44:22

It's always a team victory.

814

: 00:44:23

So that's how I see it.

815

: 00:44:24

It's never like sales versus

SDRs versus marketing.

816

: 00:44:28

We're all after the same thing

and we each provide value in

817

: 00:44:32

that journey for that person.

818

: 00:44:36

And so long as we hold strong on

the strategy that we have and do

819

: 00:44:40

our part, it's a win for all of us.

820

: 00:44:44

So, I know it's easier said than done,

for sure, but I'm just too busy firing

821

: 00:44:49

because I'm watching Top Chef right now.

822

: 00:44:51

I'm firing out the plates.

823

: 00:44:52

Too busy to think about exact

attribution or anything like that.

824

: 00:44:57

I just need people to understand that

we have all this positivity coming our

825

: 00:45:02

way, and it does mean something, and

we do see it in the numbers as well.

826

: 00:45:08

Justin Norris: So just to drill into

that a little bit, because I think this

827

: 00:45:10

is a very interesting point, but it's a

place where many people struggle because.

828

: 00:45:14

You know, CFOs, finance, whoever

they, people say, I need lead numbers.

829

: 00:45:19

I need MQL numbers.

830

: 00:45:20

I need SQL numbers, whatever it

is that numbers that they want.

831

: 00:45:23

And you're getting the

engagement data from the events

832

: 00:45:25

themselves, which is great.

833

: 00:45:26

Cause you can see who logged in

and you can see how many people

834

: 00:45:29

attended and what their feedback was.

835

: 00:45:31

So that's awesome.

836

: 00:45:32

Are you then thinking about how many of

these people are in our ICP or are you

837

: 00:45:37

know, collecting kind of, how did you

hear about a self reported attribution?

838

: 00:45:40

When they eventually do enter your

sales funnel to try to see if the

839

: 00:45:44

event was impactful upon them.

840

: 00:45:46

How do you try to connect those dots?

841

: 00:45:47

Thao Ngo: Yes, so we always look

at if our ICP, the percentage of

842

: 00:45:53

registrants or attendees that are ICP.

843

: 00:45:55

So we always keep an eye on that because

if it was a very small number, then really

844

: 00:46:01

we're doing great things, but for the

wrong people that we're trying to target.

845

: 00:46:05

So that's important.

846

: 00:46:06

The other thing is every

single opportunity that gets

847

: 00:46:09

created, I look at the notes.

848

: 00:46:11

I'm like, Oh.

849

: 00:46:13

Let's see what they did

right or their friends.

850

: 00:46:16

Okay.

851

: 00:46:16

Well, it looks like 10 people from

this brand have been attending

852

: 00:46:19

these events for the past year.

853

: 00:46:21

So while they closed came in maybe from

something else or talk to whatever.

854

: 00:46:27

We know that they touched those events

and that was an important part of it.

855

: 00:46:32

So I'm just always looking

at the ops created for sure.

856

: 00:46:36

But yes, we look at.

857

: 00:46:37

Okay.

858

: 00:46:37

The percentage of ICP for registrants,

attendees, and we use the opportunity of

859

: 00:46:44

these valuable content and events that

we have to reach out to our ICP as well.

860

: 00:46:52

So it's a great way for us to reach

out and say, Hey, not looking for

861

: 00:46:56

a credit card, but here's something

that you might enjoy reading or

862

: 00:47:00

get value from, or want to join.

863

: 00:47:03

So it's an opportunity for our

salespeople to show that we can

864

: 00:47:09

provide them with value as well.

865

: 00:47:10

So it's useful that way too.

866

: 00:47:12

Justin Norris: Maybe the last question

we have time for with all the things you

867

: 00:47:15

have going on, help us understand what is

like a day in the life of Tao look like?

868

: 00:47:20

And how do you organize your time?

869

: 00:47:21

Think about prioritization.

870

: 00:47:22

Think about having the right

level of situational awareness.

871

: 00:47:27

What does that flow look like for you?

872

: 00:47:28

Thao Ngo: Oh, first of all,

my alarm goes off at 6 AM.

873

: 00:47:32

Then it goes off at six or five.

874

: 00:47:35

Then 6.

875

: 00:47:35

10, then 6.

876

: 00:47:37

15, and then I rush to get ready.

877

: 00:47:39

I'm not a morning person, but we

have Germany, so I always have 7 a.

878

: 00:47:42

m.

879

: 00:47:42

meetings.

880

: 00:47:43

And I'm sometimes doing my hair,

putting on my cream during meetings.

881

: 00:47:48

But my days are four to eight

hours of meetings per day.

882

: 00:47:52

a lot of meetings.

883

: 00:47:53

I do block off my Fridays generally from

meetings and I have meetings typically

884

: 00:48:00

with only internal stakeholders.

885

: 00:48:02

So I rarely meet with vendors

or anything like that.

886

: 00:48:05

And the meetings are generally a

lot of work and project meetings.

887

: 00:48:11

I review probably and make decisions

probably no fewer than 20 times a day.

888

: 00:48:17

So there's always things

that come across my desk.

889

: 00:48:19

I'm like, yes, blue or no, do that.

890

: 00:48:22

Or yet spend 200, whatever I

make billion decisions a day.

891

: 00:48:26

And then I also get a sauna tasks

assigned to me so I can keep track

892

: 00:48:32

of really what people need from me.

893

: 00:48:35

And I usually try to clear that out

before the end of every day as well.

894

: 00:48:40

It's usually quiet after three though.

895

: 00:48:42

So usually most of my meetings from

7am to 3pm Pacific, because that's when

896

: 00:48:48

Germany and Boston are done with the day.

897

: 00:48:51

and then I'm working on

quiet work, I call it.

898

: 00:48:55

So work where I am writing or

reading or doing my own things

899

: 00:48:59

without meetings till six ish.

900

: 00:49:02

Go to a sport, come back,

do quiet work again.

901

: 00:49:06

I don't recommend people

work this often, right?

902

: 00:49:10

It is not healthy, not a

good work life balance.

903

: 00:49:13

Terrible.

904

: 00:49:13

But I need to get this all done.

905

: 00:49:15

And so, I'll do some quiet

work and then I stay up usually

906

: 00:49:19

till midnight to do my wordle.

907

: 00:49:22

Cause we have a world slack

channel and I got to get it in

908

: 00:49:25

when the Germans are getting me in.

909

: 00:49:27

so I am hands on in my working

meetings with my team members,

910

: 00:49:31

as well as the Asana tasks.

911

: 00:49:33

And then I have high level

meetings with the CMO and other

912

: 00:49:37

L2 leaders in the company.

913

: 00:49:39

So they understand what's going on.

914

: 00:49:41

And of course, time that I have with

our customers and people that we're

915

: 00:49:46

working with such as yourself as well.

916

: 00:49:48

But yeah, it is a very meeting heavy

day, which is why it needs to be fun.

917

: 00:49:55

Justin Norris: So I love your leadership

philosophy, love what you're doing

918

: 00:49:58

and yeah, it's been a great experience

for me as just someone out in the

919

: 00:50:01

community working with you, working

with uptempo and some of these projects.

920

: 00:50:04

So thank you for including me and

thank you for coming on the show today.

921

: 00:50:08

It was really fun discussion.

922

: 00:50:09

Thao Ngo: No, thank you for

having me and taking the time.

923

: 00:50:13

It was great just to reflect on my

experiences because like I said, I'm

924

: 00:50:19

constantly out there talking about

marketing planning, talking to the MOPS

925

: 00:50:23

community, and it's taking the time to

think back on my own journey, which I

926

: 00:50:29

don't really get to do very often, so.

927

: 00:50:32

It was it was

928

: 00:50:33

Justin Norris: Awesome.

929

: 00:50:33

Right.

930

: 00:50:33

Well, we will speak again.

931

: 00:50:35

Bye for now.

932

: 00:50:36

Thao Ngo: Yes!

933

: 00:50:36

Bye.