Building Refine Labs: An Operational Perspective - Megan Bowen

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

If you had to pick one agency that's had the biggest impact

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on B2B marketing over the past five

years, the decision would be easy.

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Whether you agree with their approach

or not, you'd have to say RefineLabs.

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Refined Labs has set the agenda.

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They've defined the terms of the debate.

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They've introduced ideas and methodologies

that have come to be widely acknowledged

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as aspirational best practices, even if

they're not universally practiced yet.

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And of course the face, most of us

associate with refine is former CEO,

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Chris Walker, today's guest was a partner

with Chris nearly from the beginning of

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that journey, helping grow refined labs

from just a few people to nearly 100

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Megan Bowen was COO at refine for three

and a half years before taking over from

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Chris as CEO at the beginning of 2024.

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And we all know that the

impact of operations often

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happens below the surface.

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It's a lot less visible from the outside.

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You don't see it on LinkedIn,

but it keeps everything going.

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It makes the magic happen.

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So we're gonna pull back the curtain today

and take a look at the Refine Lab story.

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From an operational perspective, dig

into some lessons learned about agency

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ops and talk to Megan about where she's

steering Refine next as CEO, Megan, it's

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such a pleasure to have you here today.

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Megan Bowen: What an intro.

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I love that.

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Thank you so much.

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I'm excited to be here and excited

to chat about all of the things and

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so thanks again for having me on.

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Justin Norris: little bit about

you first, looking at your CV, you

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have had roles in sales, account

management, customer success, ops.

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You've kind of really done a full

circuit and now you're a CEO.

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I'm curious about the stack of skills

you've built up through these different

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roles and is there one of these functions

that you feel most rooted in or how have

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they contributed to who you are today?

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Megan Bowen: I'll give you my quick

career arc because I think that it is

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a really interesting evolution from

where I started to where I am now.

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Actually right out of high school before

I went to college, I got sucked into

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Probably an MLM scheme, Cutco cutlery.

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And that was a really formative

experience for me because I really

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learned the hard skills of sales.

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I actually sold over 10,

000 worth of these knives.

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I actually had some success and

that was when I first, started to.

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Realize the importance of sales and move

away from a lot of my childhood dreams

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about being a filmmaker and looking at

the bigger picture and thinking Hmm,

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maybe I have a path in the business

world, and maybe that's where I'm headed.

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Let me make my millions and then I'll

retire and make movies, until I die.

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My first job out of college

was at educational technology

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company called eChalk.

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My core foundational skills that I

learned there was account management,

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customer success, and customer service.

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I was there for seven years.

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I got some promotions, but

I was doing the same job.

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For seven years, and that allowed me

to really master the discipline of

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account management and customer success.

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And this was actually before like

customer success was even really a thing.

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Ready for my next challenge

after that really great run.

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I went to ZocDoc.

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2012.

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I took a huge step back in my career.

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Became a customer support agent

over a 50 percent pay cut.

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But I said, this is a place where

I will be able to grow my career.

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They're offering something that

people are definitely going to use.

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After nine months on the phone,

emails, headset, sitting on a

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stability ball, answering calls

and emails for 14 hours a day.

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I was able to synthesize that the

core problem in the business was a

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complete lack of a post sale function.

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at the time the business's

only solution was let's just

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keep hiring more support reps.

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I was like, Hey guys, if you

have a post sale team, you

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properly onboard your doctors.

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You don't need, 60 support reps dealing

with all of the problems that exist.

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It took me a while, but I put

a business case together, and

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they gave me the opportunity.

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That was my first time building

out a team from scratch.

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So in 18 months, I built a team from

zero to 24, designed the entire post sale

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function That was an amazing experience.

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And I realized I love leading

a team, building a team.

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This is what I really love to do.

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I got recruited from Grubhub Seamless.

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They said, we need someone to build out

our B2B account management function.

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I was like, I can do that.

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I want to do it again.

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Let's go.

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So I left SockDoc, went

to Grubhub Seamless.

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It's post merger, pre IPO, built that

function from scratch there on the

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B2B side, was there for the IPO, they

acquired a bunch of companies and I

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learned, I basically had to like fold

in a lot of their acquired companies

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into the broader brand, that was

another really formative experience.

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Grubhub got really big.

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I was there for four years and I was like,

I need to go back to building something.

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Small company Managed by Q reached out.

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We need you to build our

account management function.

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I'm like, I got this.

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Went to Managed by Q.

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Managed by Q was when I broke out

of the account management lane.

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I started as the director

of account management.

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I ended as the COO at managed by Q.

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First I took over sales.

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I had a lot of experience there.

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Then I took over marketing.

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Didn't have as much.

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Then I took over operations.

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Then I became the COO.

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We eventually exited to

WeWork via acquisition.

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That's another story for another day.

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Maybe over a glass of wine.

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I then went back into the food tech space.

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I got recruited to go to

this company, Platters.

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I was like, ah, I know this space.

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It's very crowded.

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A lot of M& A activity.

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I can probably, Get my next exit this way.

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Let's go.

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A pandemic happened though, and

then that negatively affected that

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business and I decided to walk away.

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I was actually going to start my own kind

of COO, consulting, customer success,

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sales, like go to market consulting.

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And Chris found me and ultimately

convinced me to team up with

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him and build refine labs.

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My first question to him was like,

out of all the things that I do, I'm

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decent at marketing, but you want me

to help you build a marketing agency,

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that's not really my core competency.

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And he said, no, you have all

the the skills I don't have.

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I think we're going to

make a really good team.

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Obviously I said, yes, here we are today.

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And we were building the agency

side by side ever since, and then

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as things evolved you see how

things have sort of transpired

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over the last three to four months.

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Justin Norris: The theme I've

took from there is building, that

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seems to be your happy place.

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But you hadn't done a like a

service based business before.

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I guess Grubhub to an extent was had

a lot of a service component to it.

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Megan Bowen: All the companies

I worked at were really tech

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enabled services.

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If you think about it,

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ZocDoc, you book the appointment online,

but all my support calls were about what

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happened in the doctor's

office, or an issue with, you

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know, the appointment, etc.

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Grubhub, you order online,

you get the food in real life.

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The food has to be good.

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Manage by Q, you order office

services online, someone's coming

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to clean or paint your office.

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So all my roles, it was about both

technology adoption and management

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of the In real life experience and

how do you manage expectations and

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deliver on your promises to customers

with that amount of complexity?

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Justin Norris: And so having partnered

with Chris really early on in that

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journey, and I've, you know, heard him

talk a fair bit about that arc from

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his point of view, and there's actually

an episode of Dimension Live where the

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two of you discussed Refine Labs, which

really stuck with me, where I got a bit

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of your perspective, but I'm just curious

to like, just replay that movie, through

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your eyes and what it was like going

on that journey, building Refine Labs.

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Megan Bowen: so I joined, it

was the summer of: 2020

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there was five employees, maybe

about six customers at the time.

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And all six customers were using really

a random assortment of services, right?

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This is the beginning of the agency.

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So like the core offering hadn't

really fully been fleshed out.

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It was really an amalgamation of

people that, thought Chris was smart

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and wanted to hire him and his team

to help with a variety of things.

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It was interesting in my first 90 days.

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Like, all of the customers

ended up cancelling, and we

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had to quickly replace them.

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I remember making my first sale in week

three of joining the company with Chris.

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So I would say the first six months

you know, I kind of came in and I

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was like, every customer is sort

of getting something different.

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Everyone's paying a different amount.

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We're grossly undercharging for

the value that we're providing.

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And really, I would say the first

thing that I was trying to focus on

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in coming in and using my experience

and expertise and working with Chris

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was like, who is our real customer?

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And what is really the

core set of services that.

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Really are our core competency and

what are like, sure, we can do these

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other things, but are those things

the things that we're really good at.

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So I'd say in the first six

months of working together,

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we really were able to craft.

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I would say what is still

probably the core of our business

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strategy, Which was leaning into

demand strategy, media execution.

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I built out the creative team from

scratch in the beginning of: 2021

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We added that once we realized that

was a key need of our customers and

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really started playing around with

pricing and increasing those prices.

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we then had the COVID boom.

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So 2021 was our hyper growth

year, And sure me and Chris would

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probably like we're so smart.

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We grew this amazing agency.

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It's just because of us

because we were so smart.

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We're so good.

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And it's not to diminish either

of our skill sets, but I think

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it was predominantly a function

of the market conditions.

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If I'm being honest, we had

all of this VC money coming in.

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high pressure to grow as well as a ton

of money to inject into that growth and

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a total lack of consideration for any,

customer acquisition costs or any other

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unit economics that mattered, right?

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So that was perfect for us.

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And honestly, in that period, I remember

when I joined, think we were charging

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our clients like around 8k per month.

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And we rode that COVID boom, I think at

the peak, we were charging between like

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35 and 45k per month for our services.

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With some gradual price

increases up until that point.

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Obviously, the market has corrected.

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We're around now 20 to 27k a month.

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But that's when we had hyper growth.

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So it was, how do we hire people?

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How do we build a repeatable

process for service delivery?

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How do we design the delivery

process so that it's repeatable?

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How do we find the right talent?

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How do we train them?

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In an agency, the team is the product.

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the people that you get, how you enable

them, how they feel about being at

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the job is crucial to be successful.

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That's when I started leveraging

the core marketing principles for

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talent acquisition, I basically

recruited probably the first 60

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people at the company personally

and started posting on LinkedIn.

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We later started a podcast

called Talent Destination.

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Was really intentional about why

working at our agency would be different

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from working at other agencies.

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The reputation isn't great, Burnout too

many customers, Not caring about the

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individual, Unable to take vacation,

Difficult customers that you have to

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deal with without any Support from the

leadership team, so everything that I was

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doing was like, how do we not be that?

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How do we be the opposite of the

negative connotations of what

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it's like to work at an agency?

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How do we assemble all the

marketing Avengers all in one place?

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So people wanna come work with us because

of the caliber of talent that we have.

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So recruiting, I would say like

offers, pricing, packaging.

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That was like a big thing I focused on.

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Then it was talent, and then it was

identifying the people on the team

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that were really strong operationally

and giving them clarity on where we

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needed to focus to, to actually scale.

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That said, We grew so fast

that things started to break.

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That's what happened and it's funny

because both Chris and I really hate the

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growth at all costs mentality, but we fell

into growth at all costs because of all

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of those factors that I just explained

and dealt with the same, consequences.

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And repercussions, 2022, 2023,

we're challenging, The B2B SaaS

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ecosystem started to erode collapse.

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If I'm being dramatic and we had

to pivot, we had to lower pricing.

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We had a delivery model

for those higher pricing.

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So that cut into our operating margins.

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We had clients that were just going out

of business or running out of money.

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that impacted retention greatly.

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People wanted to keep working with us,

but were like, I literally can't pay you

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because we're in survival mode right now.

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And then we had to test and pivot.

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We started unbundling services.

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Chris, the forever visionary, forever

innovator, was trying to rethink our

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category positioning or our offering.

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So we tried lots of different things

over the course of that time period.

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Which I think was needed.

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Another by product of that though,

was creating a lot of confusion in the

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market about who we were, what we did.

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I've taken sales calls at

Refine Labs the whole time.

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Sometimes we've had help.

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Sometimes it's only been me.

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That period was when I'd start

a sales call and this is how

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most of them would start.

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I love Refine Labs.

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I love you guys.

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I love the podcast.

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I love Chris, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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So what do you guys do?

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What do you actually do?

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I was like, Oh, okay, here we go.

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So taking over this was a very

intentional decision to let Chris

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effectively start a new venture

focused on some of the new patterns

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that he was seeing in go to market.

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So that's really what

posetto is all about, right?

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Let's get really clear and focused

about what refined labs is.

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Let's split off a new venture that can

be focused on what Chris does best, which

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is identifying new patterns, innovating

off of that, continuing to, explore

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new concepts and further define them.

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And let's treat RefineLabs for what it is.

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A demand generation agency.

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And so as I've taken over, I've

really focused on clarity, on

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continuing to adjust pricing and

packaging to meet our customers needs.

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Justin Norris: I'm curious, stepping

into the CEO role, has it been a

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shock to the system in any way?

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Has it been surprising at all?

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differences from what you would

expect or is it just felt like a

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natural extension of a lot of the

work that you were doing already?

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Megan Bowen: So I think some additional

context on this, Chris and I had a

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unique leadership style in running

the business when I first joined.

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I would say from 2020 to 2022,

we very much were acting like

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co leaders of the company.

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And we were also leveraging

each other's strengths.

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So, for example, I always managed

the senior leadership team directly.

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And Chris and I, although it would

evolve and change, we effectively

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Divided and conquered on all of the

key responsibilities that a typical

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CEO and maybe a COO would have and

so from an internal perspective.

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I don't think that was the

perception externally, but from

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an internal perspective, we

were always acting in that way.

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And then in the beginning of 2023.

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And when things were particularly

difficult, we had a big layoff in

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December of 2022, which was difficult.

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I would say beginning of that 2023

period, I started to take on a lot more

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CEO like responsibilities internally.

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Chris was really guiding me.

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Going down this path of experimenting

with what has now become posetto at that

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time and over the course of 2023 him and I

were discussing about how we were going to

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play this out and what it would look like.

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And so I would say for the

majority of last year, I was

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doing the role in many ways.

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From an internal perspective, and so

when the external announcement went

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out in January, it was exciting and

fun, and I had a lot of, really kind

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messages of congratulations, et cetera.

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But for me in January, it

didn't feel that different.

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It felt like over the course of 2023 when

I personally was undergoing some of those

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adjustments and that adjustment period,

including trying to really figure out.

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Who can I identify on the team that

can start to take on the COO and the

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operational stuff that I'm doing so I can

create more space for focusing on some

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other things that are also important.

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think

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Justin Norris: And so diving in

a little bit into the, I'm going

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to call it agency operations.

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I don't even know if that's a real

term, but I'll use it to describe

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The thing that you have been doing and.

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This is something that I learned as well.

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And it was on the agency

side for seven years.

314

: 00:16:47

And you start out, you're like, I'm good

at this, I think X, and I'm going to go

315

: 00:16:51

and be a consultant for that, skill set.

316

: 00:16:54

in the beginning, that's okay.

317

: 00:16:55

And then as you start to add and add

like, Oh, I built this really complex

318

: 00:16:58

thing and actually is a business of

itself to run and make sure that we

319

: 00:17:03

are delivering a quality service in

a repeatable way and that it scales

320

: 00:17:07

and you've really touched already.

321

: 00:17:09

On a lot of those points.

322

: 00:17:10

But I don't think there's

a lot of playbooks.

323

: 00:17:12

I think there are few books and

things out there about running

324

: 00:17:14

service based businesses, but I think

people just sort of discover it.

325

: 00:17:17

They're like, Oh, I got to run this thing.

326

: 00:17:19

What was that learning

process like for you?

327

: 00:17:22

Kind of figuring that out.

328

: 00:17:23

It

329

: 00:17:24

Megan Bowen: It's really hard.

330

: 00:17:24

Running a

331

: 00:17:25

service business is hard.

332

: 00:17:26

People should think carefully

before they sign up for it.

333

: 00:17:30

So, there are a couple,

I think key challenges.

334

: 00:17:34

I'll talk a little bit about I

of: 2021

335

: 00:17:40

We had, so at the tail end of the

COVID boom year of: 2021

336

: 00:17:46

acquisition was out of control, I

literally couldn't hire fast enough

337

: 00:17:50

to meet the demand that we had.

338

: 00:17:52

It was insane.

339

: 00:17:54

At one point we were signing

contracts that didn't have

340

: 00:17:58

start dates until 90 days away.

341

: 00:18:01

Because I just didn't have a team

available to assign to them and people

342

: 00:18:06

were still signing up and waiting

basically for their turn to work with us.

343

: 00:18:11

And we were bumping up our prices.

344

: 00:18:13

We were assigning all sorts of

companies, big and small, relatively

345

: 00:18:18

straightforward, very complex

businesses with massive budgets.

346

: 00:18:22

We had this initial hypothesis on

capacity planning, which is every

347

: 00:18:26

team should manage four to five

customers and that would allow

348

: 00:18:31

us to achieve our target margins,

target revenue efficiency metrics.

349

: 00:18:36

started getting a lot of feedback

of: 2021

350

: 00:18:40

that everyone was feeling burnt out.

351

: 00:18:43

The workload was unsustainable.

352

: 00:18:45

they weren't sure what changes they

could make to make it sustainable.

353

: 00:18:50

And that was when I raised the red flag

to Chris and I was like, we are headed for

354

: 00:18:55

the iceberg if we do not make a change.

355

: 00:18:57

everyone on the team is feeling this.

356

: 00:18:59

This is not one or two people.

357

: 00:19:01

This is the broad sentiment.

358

: 00:19:03

We have to address this and

we have to make a change.

359

: 00:19:06

And so, we did an

exploration of the problem.

360

: 00:19:09

We effectively came to realize

that we were treating all of our

361

: 00:19:12

customers the same when they were not.

362

: 00:19:14

And that was the first time we

actually segmented our customers.

363

: 00:19:18

Across tiers and assigned a different

set of resources to them and we could

364

: 00:19:23

no longer rely on just like, well,

every team gets four to five customers.

365

: 00:19:26

It was like, no, that doesn't work.

366

: 00:19:28

We need to reflect the nuances

of the different segments.

367

: 00:19:32

We need to realize that maybe, you

know, in the tier one segment, sure,

368

: 00:19:36

they can have four to five customers.

369

: 00:19:38

If they have a tier three

client, they can only manage two.

370

: 00:19:41

And that also forced us to rethink.

371

: 00:19:44

our pricing and packaging.

372

: 00:19:46

We had to charge those tier three clients

more than the tier one, So that was

373

: 00:19:49

a defining moment in our operations.

374

: 00:19:53

we segmented the customer base and

we made a plan and presented it back

375

: 00:19:57

to the team of how over a two month

period, we were going to reassign

376

: 00:20:01

accounts to load balance everybody's

book of business appropriately.

377

: 00:20:06

That was challenging because we had to

continue to delay net new revenue in order

378

: 00:20:10

to, Prioritize not burning out the team.

379

: 00:20:14

And we still haven't figured this out

completely because the market drove

380

: 00:20:18

our prices down and in many ways we

still have an expensive delivery model.

381

: 00:20:23

And so it has been an ongoing constant

effort of how are we and pricing,

382

: 00:20:29

how are we designing, What the

delivery experience is like, how many

383

: 00:20:33

people are on every type of account.

384

: 00:20:36

But I think that story kind of

illustrates the challenge that we had.

385

: 00:20:40

What I'm proud of us, what we

did though, is we prioritize the

386

: 00:20:43

health of the team ahead of net new

revenue acquisition, which I don't

387

: 00:20:48

think happens in every context.

388

: 00:20:51

So we were willing to delay revenue

growth because we realized that

389

: 00:20:55

this was so important to solve.

390

: 00:20:57

And I think for any agency owner, you

have to put your team before the customer.

391

: 00:21:03

Because your team is the product.

392

: 00:21:06

It is the customer experience.

393

: 00:21:09

If they're burnt out, if they're not

set up for success, if they're not

394

: 00:21:12

equipped, your customer will know.

395

: 00:21:15

They will feel it.

396

: 00:21:16

And that's the prevalent theme

that I see in agencies that

397

: 00:21:22

have an opportunity to improve.

398

: 00:21:23

They consistently prioritize the customer

and are not making that connection.

399

: 00:21:28

Justin Norris: that's what leads to that

negative reputation you alluded to about

400

: 00:21:32

agencies that they're meat grinders,

that they don't care about their people.

401

: 00:21:36

That was my trepidation

in joining an agency.

402

: 00:21:39

And I mean, I was lucky I ended up

somewhere great that also took that

403

: 00:21:42

approach and I think more and more

are starting to figure that out.

404

: 00:21:45

But yeah,

405

: 00:21:46

it's a scary thing to, work 50,

60 billable hours a week and,

406

: 00:21:51

be burnt out and, Not have a

management that has your back.

407

: 00:21:54

It isn't sustainable.

408

: 00:21:56

curious the axis of segmentation

for the client base was just based

409

: 00:21:59

on company size Like was that the

defining thing between the different

410

: 00:22:02

tiers or were there other factors that

influenced how much support they needed?

411

: 00:22:06

Megan Bowen: It's a good question.

412

: 00:22:08

I think there was a correlation with

company size, but it really came down

413

: 00:22:11

to a few factors and more about the

dynamic of the actual, product mix

414

: 00:22:17

and the total ad budget we managed.

415

: 00:22:19

So I think where we distinctly saw an

account taking significantly more hours

416

: 00:22:27

to serve was You know, significantly

higher managing, 50 K per month is very

417

: 00:22:36

different than a million per month just

in terms of tasks to be completed jobs to

418

: 00:22:40

be done hours needed to dedicate to it.

419

: 00:22:44

And then the additional layer is,

there are some companies that have

420

: 00:22:50

one target market, one customer

segment and one product offering.

421

: 00:22:56

So, I need to market this one

product to this one segment, and

422

: 00:23:00

I need to get that exactly right.

423

: 00:23:02

There's another type of company

that actually has a suite of

424

: 00:23:06

products, 3, different solutions.

425

: 00:23:11

And maybe they sell into SMB

and mid market and enterprise.

426

: 00:23:15

That's actually like five

companies in one company.

427

: 00:23:18

Even if their ad budget is

relatively small, right?

428

: 00:23:21

Even if that ad budget is a hundred

K and not a million, there's

429

: 00:23:24

a lot more complexity in that.

430

: 00:23:25

And it's not like we just take

the one strategy and use that

431

: 00:23:28

strategy for all your product lines

and all your customer segments.

432

: 00:23:31

It doesn't work that way.

433

: 00:23:33

So I would say those were

the two biggest factors that.

434

: 00:23:36

effectively classified a customer

as like a tier one versus a tier

435

: 00:23:40

three, thinking tier one more

simple, tier three more complex.

436

: 00:23:44

There was a general correlation with

tier three customers being overall

437

: 00:23:48

larger companies, more employees,

higher revenue, but not always

438

: 00:23:52

the case, interestingly enough.

439

: 00:23:54

Justin Norris: I mean, my background

was more of a, hourly billing model.

440

: 00:23:58

It just made sense for the type of work

that we did, which was primarily, you

441

: 00:24:01

know, systems configuration, it like

products for your pricing and packaging.

442

: 00:24:06

It was more of like a

monthly retainer model.

443

: 00:24:09

generally is preferred.

444

: 00:24:10

People don't like, the idea of just

trading hours for dollars because,

445

: 00:24:13

there's a limit to how far you can scale.

446

: 00:24:15

But the flip side, I guess, like you

talked about is you may end up in a

447

: 00:24:18

package with a client that starts just

sucking you dry in terms of hours.

448

: 00:24:22

Megan Bowen: Yes.

449

: 00:24:23

Justin Norris: do you set limits on that?

450

: 00:24:25

how do you put boundaries to

make sure that doesn't happen?

451

: 00:24:28

Megan Bowen: I mean, we considered hourly

or usage based pricing multiple times

452

: 00:24:33

over the course of the last few years.

453

: 00:24:35

we challenged our business model at

many junctures and we've You know,

454

: 00:24:39

it thought should we go in this

direction like it would, be easier,

455

: 00:24:43

you know, I'm using air quotes to

charge that way so that we're not

456

: 00:24:47

underwater with certain clients, right?

457

: 00:24:50

What we kept coming back to though

was we didn't want to be hired

458

: 00:24:54

for the hours that we spent.

459

: 00:24:56

We wanted to be hired for the

impact that we would have.

460

: 00:24:59

So we kept coming back to our flat

pricing, although there are some

461

: 00:25:04

tiers, like You know, the 27k a

month package is for a 50k ad budget.

462

: 00:25:08

If you're spending a million

bucks a month, you're going

463

: 00:25:09

to pay us more than 27k.

464

: 00:25:12

But we'll put that custom

pricing together for you.

465

: 00:25:14

What it came down to then was in order

to ensure that we don't over deliver

466

: 00:25:21

or erode our margins, We need to be

really intentional with the service

467

: 00:25:25

design, as well as the sales process,

and how we are communicating what to

468

: 00:25:32

expect, what they're going to get, how

you actually draft your scopes of work,

469

: 00:25:38

so that if you run into an issue, you

have sort of agreed upon documentation

470

: 00:25:43

to come back to, to reset expectations.

471

: 00:25:45

But the most important thing is

aligning in the sales process,

472

: 00:25:50

so there's no confusion.

473

: 00:25:51

Right?

474

: 00:25:52

I like to tell people I'm like,

I'm not a great sales rep.

475

: 00:25:55

I open my sales calls being like, I'm

not here to convince you to hire us.

476

: 00:25:59

The purpose of this call is for us to have

an initial conversation and evaluate if

477

: 00:26:04

we think there's a potential fit for a

partnership and then we'll keep talking.

478

: 00:26:07

And I actually will bring things up to

almost talk people out of hiring us.

479

: 00:26:14

If I see a potential,

yellow flag or a red flag.

480

: 00:26:18

people with low ACVs.

481

: 00:26:19

Oh, our product costs 4, 000 a month.

482

: 00:26:21

I'm like, yo, I can get you more

customers to pay you 4, 000 a month,

483

: 00:26:25

but if you're paying us our retainer.

484

: 00:26:27

And you know 50 K per month ad

budget, your customer acquisition

485

: 00:26:30

cost is going to be unsustainable?

486

: 00:26:33

Is that something you wanna sign up for?

487

: 00:26:34

Do you have a ton of VCPE money

that you're willing to just spend

488

: 00:26:38

for a period of time to grow and

figure out how to right size later?

489

: 00:26:43

Like if so, cool, we'll help you.

490

: 00:26:45

If not, I'm not sure where the right.

491

: 00:26:46

partner,

492

: 00:26:47

Justin Norris: When you're on the hook

for delivering those, Bad projects or

493

: 00:26:51

projects with bad fit clients and you

experience the pain of that You get way

494

: 00:26:55

more motivated to filter people out up

front versus just selling like a sas

495

: 00:26:59

product That's like air like whatever if

you don't succeed with it, maybe you don't

496

: 00:27:02

care if you're the salesperson, but when

you're Also having to deliver and fulfill

497

: 00:27:06

that you feel it way closer to home

498

: 00:27:10

Megan Bowen: absolutely.

499

: 00:27:10

And then, but honestly, that

approach serves me well.

500

: 00:27:14

I create trust pretty quickly.

501

: 00:27:16

People don't think I'm trying

to oversell or convince them.

502

: 00:27:19

And then for those where it does

make sense, we're able to go through

503

: 00:27:23

effectively like a due diligence process.

504

: 00:27:25

I don't need, it's like not

even a sales process, right?

505

: 00:27:27

It's like, okay, let's take each

of these steps that I've defined.

506

: 00:27:30

That'll help us both evaluate that

this is going to be a good fit

507

: 00:27:34

for both

508

: 00:27:35

Justin Norris: I found I found the

same it's way better it's consultative

509

: 00:27:37

you're not pitching anybody on anything

and You People really want to work

510

: 00:27:41

with you, coming out the other end.

511

: 00:27:43

you've mentioned a few times and I

agree with it so much that in a service

512

: 00:27:47

business that people are the product

and the challenge that I've seen, you

513

: 00:27:51

know, you start an agency and maybe you

have a few, Rock stars like a Sidney

514

: 00:27:56

or a Sam or an Ashley, or I'm just

naming some people I know And then

515

: 00:27:58

it becomes hard to like clone them.

516

: 00:28:01

no matter what process you put in place,

there's an unevenness sometimes, or

517

: 00:28:05

Not everybody has the same methodology.

518

: 00:28:07

And so then you have this unevenness

in the service delivery, you know, not

519

: 00:28:10

everyone gets the identical experience.

520

: 00:28:12

You how did you tackle that?

521

: 00:28:13

Or did you figure out a way to, clone

people and really keep that consistent?

522

: 00:28:18

Megan Bowen: Yeah,

that's a great question.

523

: 00:28:20

2021 in Q1 of 2022 was when we had

our hiring spree, probably like over

524

: 00:28:24

that period of time hired 100 people.

525

: 00:28:26

One of the consistent things that came

up in the interview process was this

526

: 00:28:31

sense of imposter syndrome from highly

skilled, experienced demand marketers,

527

: 00:28:36

just like I see Sam, I see Sydney,

Ashley, I see these people on LinkedIn.

528

: 00:28:41

I don't know if I'm

good enough to be here.

529

: 00:28:43

Like, am I going to be able

to succeed in this job?

530

: 00:28:46

Right?

531

: 00:28:47

Now, yes, you need a baseline

of hard skills and experience to

532

: 00:28:53

be effective in this job, right?

533

: 00:28:55

And we very intentionally qualify

for that in our recruiting process.

534

: 00:29:00

And then we had a pretty strong process

whereby we would have obviously like

535

: 00:29:06

conversation interviews, technical

interviews, and presentation interviews

536

: 00:29:11

to be able to Check off all of

the boxes again for both sides and

537

: 00:29:15

also to make sure that we always

recruited people that had in house

538

: 00:29:19

experience, not agency experience.

539

: 00:29:22

So I always was so intentional of

like, this is going to be really

540

: 00:29:25

different from what you're used to.

541

: 00:29:28

Here's how it's going to be different.

542

: 00:29:30

These demand marketers in many cases.

543

: 00:29:33

never had to think about developing

things like, you know, account management

544

: 00:29:37

skills or executive communication skills.

545

: 00:29:41

But for all the ones that we've

hired and many others, they

546

: 00:29:45

were excited to develop those.

547

: 00:29:47

And a lot of people viewed coming

to RefineLabs as, this is how I'm

548

: 00:29:51

going to get my marketing MBA, I'm

going to come in here, I'm going

549

: 00:29:53

to work here for a few years.

550

: 00:29:55

I'm going to work with a

bunch of different companies.

551

: 00:29:57

I'm going to figure out for myself

what works and what doesn't work.

552

: 00:30:00

And so, we weren't perfect on

hiring, but we really had a

553

: 00:30:04

process to bring in awesome people.

554

: 00:30:07

That's been my favorite thing

about building this company is

555

: 00:30:11

the talent density that we had and

continue to have is unmatched from

556

: 00:30:17

any company that I've been at.

557

: 00:30:19

Onboarding enablement is crucial.

558

: 00:30:22

And then I think leadership.

559

: 00:30:23

So Judy Sheriff, Evan Hughes on our

team have been here since the beginning

560

: 00:30:28

and they've always led and managed.

561

: 00:30:30

Our team of directors of demand gen.

562

: 00:30:32

So I would say onboarding enablement

and like consistent leadership

563

: 00:30:36

and a good recruiting process is

how you mitigate the risk there.

564

: 00:30:40

But what I'll say is all of our

directors go through this beautiful

565

: 00:30:45

professional development arc, and

it's so awesome to see, right?

566

: 00:30:51

Like I'm okay if you join us and.

567

: 00:30:54

I know that in two years,

you're going to be so much

568

: 00:30:59

better than where you are today.

569

: 00:31:01

But that's actually something I personally

get a lot of satisfaction about.

570

: 00:31:04

How do you create the conditions

for people to be in a professional

571

: 00:31:08

setting and truly accelerate their

career growth in a meaningful way?

572

: 00:31:14

Mistakes get made.

573

: 00:31:15

Customers might be let down

or upset here and there.

574

: 00:31:18

That's okay.

575

: 00:31:19

There are solutions to those things.

576

: 00:31:21

Justin Norris: with that onboarding

process, did you have like a formal

577

: 00:31:24

playbook or learning path, like something

documented that you put people through

578

: 00:31:29

to have them come out with a sort of

consistent service delivery model, or

579

: 00:31:33

was it learning through osmosis, buddy

system, shadowing, how did that work?

580

: 00:31:38

Megan Bowen: All of those things.

581

: 00:31:39

We have robust documentation,

which effectively also kind

582

: 00:31:43

of became the vault in many

583

: 00:31:44

ways.

584

: 00:31:45

We always paired people up for

mentorship and buddy programs.

585

: 00:31:49

We would have new hires sit in on

active client meetings because like to

586

: 00:31:54

see it is to know it and to learn it.

587

: 00:31:57

So we did all of those things.

588

: 00:31:59

Justin Norris: And one of the biggest

challenges with the service based

589

: 00:32:01

business is it's almost impossible

to stand on that tightrope of being

590

: 00:32:06

perfectly staffed and like having

supply and demand meet each other.

591

: 00:32:11

Like you're almost never there.

592

: 00:32:12

too few people, and then you're

disappointing clients or you have too

593

: 00:32:14

many people and all of a sudden your

margins are underwater and when I was

594

: 00:32:18

on the agency side, we had a furloughs

at a period of time where people

595

: 00:32:21

would voluntarily reduce their hours.

596

: 00:32:23

So we didn't have to lay

people off was okay.

597

: 00:32:24

But it's like, it's just

such a thin razor's edge that

598

: 00:32:28

you're walking all the time.

599

: 00:32:29

How did you manage that?

600

: 00:32:30

Megan Bowen: Yeah, it's so hard.

601

: 00:32:32

the first exposure was not enough people.

602

: 00:32:37

So that was our first problem in 2021

when the demand exceeded the supply.

603

: 00:32:42

It was a race to recruit and onboard.

604

: 00:32:45

At the time, we had enough leverage.

605

: 00:32:47

I couldn't believe it when I'd be on

a sales call and I'd be like, our next

606

: 00:32:50

available start date is in 90 days,

but we're first come, first served.

607

: 00:32:53

Send me the contract.

608

: 00:32:54

I want to start in 90 days.

609

: 00:32:56

Okay.

610

: 00:32:57

Almost couldn't believe

it, but it happened a lot.

611

: 00:32:59

So I think when we didn't have enough

supply, it was like, okay, how are we

612

: 00:33:03

managing the expectations of customers?

613

: 00:33:05

How are we staggering start dates?

614

: 00:33:07

Okay.

615

: 00:33:07

I also came up with what I

called, I said, you know, you're

616

: 00:33:11

going to start in 90 days.

617

: 00:33:12

However, we have a pre onboarding

process that I'm going to enroll you in.

618

: 00:33:17

Because I needed to keep

them warm for 90 days, right?

619

: 00:33:20

So we would send them information,

we would have them start to do

620

: 00:33:23

some of the setup, we You know,

engage them with the vault.

621

: 00:33:27

We had all these different things that

we did in an effort to kind of keep

622

: 00:33:30

them engaged over that period of time.

623

: 00:33:33

Then coming into 2022, probably like

Q2 22 is when we started seeing churn

624

: 00:33:39

spike because of the impact of the

kind of macroeconomic conditions.

625

: 00:33:44

And then that's when my

supply exceeded the demand.

626

: 00:33:48

And that sucks.

627

: 00:33:50

And we're bootstrapped.

628

: 00:33:52

We don't have Lots of money

in the bank, and so we would

629

: 00:33:56

hold off as long as we could.

630

: 00:33:58

We did two layoffs in 2022, though

one in July and one in December.

631

: 00:34:03

And coming into 2023, we did our

best to cut what we thought was

632

: 00:34:08

needed in 22, but we knew that

it might not have been enough.

633

: 00:34:12

So in 2023, I just took a very different

approach because of, The damage to the

634

: 00:34:18

culture that those two layoffs created

we are always transparent, but I was the

635

: 00:34:22

most transparent we had ever been with,

like, literally telling people, like,

636

: 00:34:26

here's the road map, here's the runway.

637

: 00:34:29

If we don't hit X, Y, and Z, we're

going to have, you know, Too many

638

: 00:34:32

designers or too many X and we're

gonna have to make a change, right?

639

: 00:34:36

And so although we had different folks

either leave voluntarily or if we had

640

: 00:34:42

to kind of manage people out we were

doing it in a very different way of like

641

: 00:34:47

boom you come into work and like you're

shocked with a layoff and it was like

642

: 00:34:50

Hey, I can pay you until the end of May,

but I don't think I can pay you after.

643

: 00:34:55

So you should probably start

to look for other work, right?

644

: 00:34:58

The other thing that we did in

: 2023

645

: 00:35:06

bring revenue into the business.

646

: 00:35:08

So we did a lot of experiments

and sold a lot of random things to

647

: 00:35:11

generate revenue in the short term

as to try to like buy us more time,

648

: 00:35:15

So there are no easy answers to this.

649

: 00:35:18

I would always rather operate

with more demand than supply

650

: 00:35:22

Justin Norris: did you find that operating

with that kind of radical transparency?

651

: 00:35:26

Did that at least, help, you know,

that people felt that they were aware,

652

: 00:35:29

and mitigate a bit of that anxiety.

653

: 00:35:31

I

654

: 00:35:33

Megan Bowen: I think it helped,

but I think it also hurt.

655

: 00:35:36

I think it helped because people knew

where they stood, but then it hurt

656

: 00:35:41

because then there was this sort of

perpetual state of anxiety that is

657

: 00:35:45

very typical for companies to kind

of keep at the leadership level.

658

: 00:35:49

And Only expose the broader company to,

and those kind of like shock layoff days.

659

: 00:35:56

So I, don't know, to be honest I

was personally really drawn to

660

: 00:36:01

saying we just can't do a third

layoff and blindside the team.

661

: 00:36:06

So I'm gonna take this approach

and I know that it has downsides.

662

: 00:36:10

I know that it's not the perfect approach,

but I think that this approach will

663

: 00:36:14

help us rebuild trust over the long run.

664

: 00:36:18

I would say the culture from

summer 22 towards I would say

665

: 00:36:24

like Q3 23, like a year and a few

months was really challenging.

666

: 00:36:30

But we persevered and I think

the benefit of that approach

667

: 00:36:34

anyway is reestablished trust.

668

: 00:36:39

With the team and leadership that we

were going to do everything that we

669

: 00:36:43

could to prevent what happened in 2022.

670

: 00:36:47

Even though maybe it makes people

feel a little uncomfortable.

671

: 00:36:51

Justin Norris: mean, speaking

as someone who's been an agency

672

: 00:36:53

employee, I've never been an agency

owner, but I would rather know, the,

673

: 00:36:57

Megan Bowen: We're all adults here, right?

674

: 00:36:58

Justin Norris: I think you can plan.

675

: 00:37:00

And I don't know, I think the

trust part, even if everything

676

: 00:37:03

isn't rosy all the time.

677

: 00:37:05

If you feel that, you know,

where you stand and you know,

678

: 00:37:07

where the company stands,

679

: 00:37:08

Megan Bowen: Clear is

680

: 00:37:08

kind,

681

: 00:37:09

at the end of the day,

even if it's disappointing.

682

: 00:37:12

Justin Norris: just thinking a little

bit about, as you alluded to, you

683

: 00:37:14

know, Chris, being the kind of visionary

and the innovator and, and always

684

: 00:37:17

thinking of new things, has the core

philosophy, the core approach, Changed

685

: 00:37:22

at all over the past four or five years

686

: 00:37:25

Megan Bowen: the core of the strategy

and the philosophy has remained the same.

687

: 00:37:28

The ways that it has evolved

has been additive, right?

688

: 00:37:33

Additive strategies, additive tactics

additive measurement approaches,

689

: 00:37:38

but the core of it hasn't changed.

690

: 00:37:41

I get this question a lot from people

because they're like, the LinkedIn,

691

: 00:37:45

you know, echo chamber, like everybody

says demand creation, demand capture,

692

: 00:37:49

like these are like old concepts, like

this isn't new, everybody's talking

693

: 00:37:53

about this, but I'm like, okay.

694

: 00:37:54

I'm like, I literally talk to seven

to ten companies a week, and I can

695

: 00:37:58

tell you confidently that 80 percent

of the B2B companies out there

696

: 00:38:01

are not doing any of it at all.

697

: 00:38:05

And so I'm like, I get it.

698

: 00:38:06

I get it.

699

: 00:38:06

We're in this echo chamber.

700

: 00:38:07

I get it.

701

: 00:38:08

We've been saying the same

thing for four to five years.

702

: 00:38:11

The problem is still there.

703

: 00:38:12

The market opportunity is still there.

704

: 00:38:14

Just because it's been discussed a lot

doesn't mean it's been adopted widely.

705

: 00:38:20

And so this is what I

like to remind people of.

706

: 00:38:22

I'm like, you know that you're doing your

job well in branding and positioning your

707

: 00:38:26

company and telling your story when you

start to get sick of telling your story.

708

: 00:38:31

And that actually means

you're not quite done yet.

709

: 00:38:34

You need to keep telling it.

710

: 00:38:36

And this is where I think Chris

and I take a different approach.

711

: 00:38:39

You know, one of the things that kind

of I was drawn to Chris was his like

712

: 00:38:43

visionary spirit, his innovative spirit,

his desire to create new things,

713

: 00:38:49

develop new language for concepts.

714

: 00:38:53

And I love that.

715

: 00:38:53

It's exciting.

716

: 00:38:54

It's cool.

717

: 00:38:55

Like it's fun.

718

: 00:38:56

It's inspiring.

719

: 00:38:58

I lean more on the Direct, blunt,

clear, like let's just be clear, let's

720

: 00:39:06

be specific, let's explain things,

let's not get too caught up on some of

721

: 00:39:12

the language or this and that, right?

722

: 00:39:13

And I'm not saying my approach

is right or better, I'm just

723

: 00:39:16

saying it's how I operate, right?

724

: 00:39:18

It's how I see the world,

it's how I communicate.

725

: 00:39:20

And so, relative to where

Refine Labs is in its journey.

726

: 00:39:25

It is an established business

now, and what's most important is

727

: 00:39:30

actually operational excellence.

728

: 00:39:33

Actually making a huge dent in the

number, the percentage of B2B companies

729

: 00:39:38

that are actually shifting their

strategies and their execution tactics.

730

: 00:39:41

That's the game now for RefineLabs.

731

: 00:39:44

So, now, if you look at Pacetto,

Chris's new venture, he's back in the

732

: 00:39:50

exploration, innovation, and innovation.

733

: 00:39:54

Seeing things, describing patterns,

coming to new conclusions,

734

: 00:39:58

that's his happy place, right?

735

: 00:40:00

That's his zone of genius.

736

: 00:40:02

But Posetto is a three person startup, has

a desire to be a software company, right?

737

: 00:40:06

And sort of they're focusing on

tech enabled services right now.

738

: 00:40:09

So just like the early days of

RefineLabs, when that was true for

739

: 00:40:13

the category that we're in now,

It's just a different approach is

740

: 00:40:18

needed given the stage that we're at.

741

: 00:40:21

Right.

742

: 00:40:21

So it's recognizing that and I think it's

just and that was I think where Chris and

743

: 00:40:24

I find it finally came to the conclusion

that this was the right decision

744

: 00:40:29

and that we could divide and

conquer in this way to make

745

: 00:40:33

both companies successful.

746

: 00:40:35

Justin Norris: makes perfect sense.

747

: 00:40:36

And I think that's also a good lead

into probably the last question we'll

748

: 00:40:39

have time for around making a dent.

749

: 00:40:42

In the market and actually, shifting

people to these new practices.

750

: 00:40:46

And the vault, which is sort of the

way I think of it as kind of like

751

: 00:40:48

your productized IP library, where

you have all your best practices.

752

: 00:40:53

I've had an account there.

753

: 00:40:54

to kind of broaden the access

to that, which I think is a

754

: 00:40:57

really exciting opportunity.

755

: 00:40:58

Maybe you can just tell us

a little bit about that.

756

: 00:41:00

I'm really gotten a lot of value

out of the resources there.

757

: 00:41:03

And you recently announced a partnership

with Aspireship, to kind of broaden

758

: 00:41:07

the access to that, which I think

is a really exciting opportunity.

759

: 00:41:10

Maybe you can just tell us

a little bit about that.

760

: 00:41:12

Megan Bowen: Yeah, I'm

really excited about this.

761

: 00:41:14

So we've known Corey at

Aspireship for a long time.

762

: 00:41:17

He used to be a Refine Labs customer.

763

: 00:41:19

He hired us back in, in early 2021 to

grow their business and have really

764

: 00:41:24

developed a great friendship with him.

765

: 00:41:26

Their platform is awesome.

766

: 00:41:28

And they were initially anchoring on

sales and customer success courses.

767

: 00:41:32

I actually filmed the customer

success course with Corey, given my

768

: 00:41:35

background and experience and their

whole, mission is so noble, right?

769

: 00:41:39

They're here to like upskill

and reskill the workforce.

770

: 00:41:42

So people that maybe came from education

or manufacturing or other industries

771

: 00:41:46

could kind of break into B2B SaaS

if that was what they wanted to do.

772

: 00:41:49

And this was a vehicle with

which they could build their

773

: 00:41:51

skills and get their first job.

774

: 00:41:53

So Corey approached me in the beginning

of this year and said I've been

775

: 00:41:58

wanting to build a marketing course

and I can't think of a better partner.

776

: 00:42:03

To do it with and refine labs, and

I think this is an opportunity.

777

: 00:42:06

You know, he's like, what's

your plan for the vault?

778

: 00:42:08

I think there's an opportunity here for

us to create another Avenue where we

779

: 00:42:13

can leverage all this amazing content

you've created in a different context

780

: 00:42:18

to broaden and extend the impact, And

they were clear financial incentives

781

: 00:42:22

for everybody for a spireship for refine

labs, and it's actually totally free.

782

: 00:42:28

To be marketers.

783

: 00:42:28

If they go through this application

process and get approved.

784

: 00:42:32

And so it was a no brainer to me.

785

: 00:42:34

I think that the vault started as

a content and information product.

786

: 00:42:38

At one point last year, we thought maybe

the vault would be the foundational for

787

: 00:42:43

this go to market software analytics

that Chris has visions for it.

788

: 00:42:46

Pacetto.

789

: 00:42:47

And so when we decided he was going

to separate that entity, it was

790

: 00:42:52

an opportunity to be like, what is

the long term plan for the vault

791

: 00:42:55

then, if that's not it anymore?

792

: 00:42:57

And really lean into content,

education, and community.

793

: 00:43:01

And so, my goal is, you can still

buy an account to the vault, right?

794

: 00:43:06

And we'll still monetize it in

that way, although I actually,

795

: 00:43:10

significantly lowered pricing to

make it more accessible to people.

796

: 00:43:14

But this is how we'll actually be

able to extend our impact, right?

797

: 00:43:18

I know that if we can get thousands of

B2B marketers to go through this course,

798

: 00:43:23

that we're effectively educating and

training like the next generation of

799

: 00:43:27

CMOs on how to think about marketing,

And that's honestly, that was one of

800

: 00:43:31

the main reasons I teamed up with Chris

to begin with was we had both been

801

: 00:43:36

personally burned by growth at all

costs, by mismanagement of go to market

802

: 00:43:43

strategies at companies, and we wanted

to be a part of that change, right?

803

: 00:43:47

So I think what I'm most excited about

is Aspireship and this partnership gives

804

: 00:43:51

us the ability to, broaden the impact

in a way beyond just hiring us as your

805

: 00:43:56

agency, not everybody's going to hire

us as their agency, and that's fine.

806

: 00:43:59

Additionally, to the point we were talking

about earlier, if we can really generate a

807

: 00:44:04

high margin revenue stream for the vault.

808

: 00:44:06

It allows us to weather some of those

inevitable bad quarters or storms

809

: 00:44:12

that come and keep our team intact.

810

: 00:44:15

Justin Norris: Well,

that's super exciting.

811

: 00:44:16

And again, you know, have firsthand

experience with the resources.

812

: 00:44:19

They're just super valuable.

813

: 00:44:21

being able to access that for free

Hope people take advantage of it.

814

: 00:44:24

Best way to access that if people

are interested, they just go

815

: 00:44:26

through the refined labs website,

816

: 00:44:28

Megan Bowen: Just go to

the Refine Labs website.

817

: 00:44:29

You'll actually see a banner on the

website for the next couple months.

818

: 00:44:32

Click here to learn more

about the Aspire ship.

819

: 00:44:34

You can fill out a quick form to

request information, and then we'll

820

: 00:44:37

send you all the details to get started.

821

: 00:44:39

Super easy.

822

: 00:44:40

Just go to refine

823

: 00:44:40

labs.com.

824

: 00:44:41

Justin Norris: Amazing.

825

: 00:44:42

Well, that's very exciting.

826

: 00:44:42

And yeah, Megan, such a pleasure

again, sitting down with you.

827

: 00:44:45

Super interesting conversation.

828

: 00:44:46

Thank you for coming on the show.

829

: 00:44:48

Megan Bowen: Thank you for having me.

830

: 00:44:49

I really appreciate it.