Building Refine Labs: An Operational Perspective - Megan Bowen
Refine Labs has had a seismic impact on B2B marketing.
Whether you agree with their philosophy or not, it's hard to deny its influence. They've set the agenda, defined the terms of the debate, and challenged many aspects of the status quo.
Former CEO Chris Walker catapulted the agency to prominence with his LinkedIn thought leadership. But behind the scenes, there's also been an intricate operational odyssey to scale Refine Labs from scratch to nearly 100 employees.
Today's guest, Megan Bowen, partnered with Chris from the beginning as COO before taking over as CEO in January of 2024. In this no-holds-barred episode, she shares an operational perspective on building Refine Labs, with candid stories and insights about scaling a service-based business, riding the hyper-growth rollercoaster, and weathering economic storms.
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About Today's Guest
Over her 20+ year career, Megan Bowen has built and scaled go-to-market teams at eChalk, ZocDoc, Grubhub/Seamless (IPO: 2014), ManagedbyQ (WeWork Acquisition: 2019) and Platterz.
In 2020, she teamed up with the Founder of Refine Labs to change the way B2B companies go-to-market.
Today, she is the CEO of Refine Labs, A B2B Demand Generation Agency.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganwhitebowen/
Key Topics
- [00:00] - Introduction
- [01:32] - Megan’s background
- [07:06] - Building Refine Labs
- [14:15] - Stepping into the CEO role
- [16:34] - Prioritizing the health of your team
- [21:56] - Segmenting clients and service levels
- [23:54] - Packaging, pricing, and service design
- [25:46] - Transparency in the sales process
- [27:43] - Achieving consistent service quality when scaling the team
- [31:21] - Onboarding process
- [31:59] - Balancing supply and demand in agency staffing
- [35:23] - Transparency around layoffs
- [37:12] - Evolution of Refine Labs methodology
- [40:36] - Partnership with Aspireship
Resource Links
- Refine Labs | Leading B2B Demand Generation Agency
- Refine Labs x Aspireship - Get subsidized access to the Refine Labs IP library with Aspireship.
Learn More
Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:
Transcript
If you had to pick one agency that's had the biggest impact
2
:on B2B marketing over the past five
years, the decision would be easy.
3
:Whether you agree with their approach
or not, you'd have to say RefineLabs.
4
:Refined Labs has set the agenda.
5
:They've defined the terms of the debate.
6
:They've introduced ideas and methodologies
that have come to be widely acknowledged
7
:as aspirational best practices, even if
they're not universally practiced yet.
8
:And of course the face, most of us
associate with refine is former CEO,
9
:Chris Walker, today's guest was a partner
with Chris nearly from the beginning of
10
:that journey, helping grow refined labs
from just a few people to nearly 100
11
:Megan Bowen was COO at refine for three
and a half years before taking over from
12
:Chris as CEO at the beginning of 2024.
13
:And we all know that the
impact of operations often
14
:happens below the surface.
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:It's a lot less visible from the outside.
16
:You don't see it on LinkedIn,
but it keeps everything going.
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:It makes the magic happen.
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:So we're gonna pull back the curtain today
and take a look at the Refine Lab story.
19
:From an operational perspective, dig
into some lessons learned about agency
20
:ops and talk to Megan about where she's
steering Refine next as CEO, Megan, it's
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:such a pleasure to have you here today.
22
:Megan Bowen: What an intro.
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:I love that.
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:Thank you so much.
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:I'm excited to be here and excited
to chat about all of the things and
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:so thanks again for having me on.
27
:Justin Norris: little bit about
you first, looking at your CV, you
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:have had roles in sales, account
management, customer success, ops.
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:You've kind of really done a full
circuit and now you're a CEO.
30
:I'm curious about the stack of skills
you've built up through these different
31
:roles and is there one of these functions
that you feel most rooted in or how have
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:they contributed to who you are today?
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:Megan Bowen: I'll give you my quick
career arc because I think that it is
34
:a really interesting evolution from
where I started to where I am now.
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:Actually right out of high school before
I went to college, I got sucked into
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:Probably an MLM scheme, Cutco cutlery.
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:And that was a really formative
experience for me because I really
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:learned the hard skills of sales.
39
:I actually sold over 10,
000 worth of these knives.
40
:I actually had some success and
that was when I first, started to.
41
:Realize the importance of sales and move
away from a lot of my childhood dreams
42
:about being a filmmaker and looking at
the bigger picture and thinking Hmm,
43
:maybe I have a path in the business
world, and maybe that's where I'm headed.
44
:Let me make my millions and then I'll
retire and make movies, until I die.
45
:My first job out of college
was at educational technology
46
:company called eChalk.
47
:My core foundational skills that I
learned there was account management,
48
:customer success, and customer service.
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:I was there for seven years.
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:I got some promotions, but
I was doing the same job.
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:For seven years, and that allowed me
to really master the discipline of
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:account management and customer success.
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:And this was actually before like
customer success was even really a thing.
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:Ready for my next challenge
after that really great run.
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:I went to ZocDoc.
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:2012.
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:I took a huge step back in my career.
58
:Became a customer support agent
over a 50 percent pay cut.
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:But I said, this is a place where
I will be able to grow my career.
60
:They're offering something that
people are definitely going to use.
61
:After nine months on the phone,
emails, headset, sitting on a
62
:stability ball, answering calls
and emails for 14 hours a day.
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:I was able to synthesize that the
core problem in the business was a
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:complete lack of a post sale function.
65
:at the time the business's
only solution was let's just
66
:keep hiring more support reps.
67
:I was like, Hey guys, if you
have a post sale team, you
68
:properly onboard your doctors.
69
:You don't need, 60 support reps dealing
with all of the problems that exist.
70
:It took me a while, but I put
a business case together, and
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:they gave me the opportunity.
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:That was my first time building
out a team from scratch.
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:So in 18 months, I built a team from
zero to 24, designed the entire post sale
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:function That was an amazing experience.
75
:And I realized I love leading
a team, building a team.
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:This is what I really love to do.
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:I got recruited from Grubhub Seamless.
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:They said, we need someone to build out
our B2B account management function.
79
:I was like, I can do that.
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:I want to do it again.
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:Let's go.
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:So I left SockDoc, went
to Grubhub Seamless.
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:It's post merger, pre IPO, built that
function from scratch there on the
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:B2B side, was there for the IPO, they
acquired a bunch of companies and I
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:learned, I basically had to like fold
in a lot of their acquired companies
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:into the broader brand, that was
another really formative experience.
87
:Grubhub got really big.
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:I was there for four years and I was like,
I need to go back to building something.
89
:Small company Managed by Q reached out.
90
:We need you to build our
account management function.
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:I'm like, I got this.
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:Went to Managed by Q.
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:Managed by Q was when I broke out
of the account management lane.
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:I started as the director
of account management.
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:I ended as the COO at managed by Q.
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:First I took over sales.
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:I had a lot of experience there.
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:Then I took over marketing.
99
:Didn't have as much.
100
:Then I took over operations.
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:Then I became the COO.
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:We eventually exited to
WeWork via acquisition.
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:That's another story for another day.
104
:Maybe over a glass of wine.
105
:I then went back into the food tech space.
106
:I got recruited to go to
this company, Platters.
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:I was like, ah, I know this space.
108
:It's very crowded.
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:A lot of M& A activity.
110
:I can probably, Get my next exit this way.
111
:Let's go.
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:A pandemic happened though, and
then that negatively affected that
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:business and I decided to walk away.
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:I was actually going to start my own kind
of COO, consulting, customer success,
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:sales, like go to market consulting.
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:And Chris found me and ultimately
convinced me to team up with
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:him and build refine labs.
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:My first question to him was like,
out of all the things that I do, I'm
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:decent at marketing, but you want me
to help you build a marketing agency,
120
:that's not really my core competency.
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:And he said, no, you have all
the the skills I don't have.
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:I think we're going to
make a really good team.
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:Obviously I said, yes, here we are today.
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:And we were building the agency
side by side ever since, and then
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:as things evolved you see how
things have sort of transpired
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:over the last three to four months.
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:Justin Norris: The theme I've
took from there is building, that
128
:seems to be your happy place.
129
:But you hadn't done a like a
service based business before.
130
:I guess Grubhub to an extent was had
a lot of a service component to it.
131
:Megan Bowen: All the companies
I worked at were really tech
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:enabled services.
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:If you think about it,
134
:ZocDoc, you book the appointment online,
but all my support calls were about what
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:happened in the doctor's
office, or an issue with, you
136
:know, the appointment, etc.
137
:Grubhub, you order online,
you get the food in real life.
138
:The food has to be good.
139
:Manage by Q, you order office
services online, someone's coming
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:to clean or paint your office.
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:So all my roles, it was about both
technology adoption and management
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:of the In real life experience and
how do you manage expectations and
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:deliver on your promises to customers
with that amount of complexity?
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:Justin Norris: And so having partnered
with Chris really early on in that
145
:journey, and I've, you know, heard him
talk a fair bit about that arc from
146
:his point of view, and there's actually
an episode of Dimension Live where the
147
:two of you discussed Refine Labs, which
really stuck with me, where I got a bit
148
:of your perspective, but I'm just curious
to like, just replay that movie, through
149
:your eyes and what it was like going
on that journey, building Refine Labs.
150
:Megan Bowen: so I joined, it
was the summer of:
151
:there was five employees, maybe
about six customers at the time.
152
:And all six customers were using really
a random assortment of services, right?
153
:This is the beginning of the agency.
154
:So like the core offering hadn't
really fully been fleshed out.
155
:It was really an amalgamation of
people that, thought Chris was smart
156
:and wanted to hire him and his team
to help with a variety of things.
157
:It was interesting in my first 90 days.
158
:Like, all of the customers
ended up cancelling, and we
159
:had to quickly replace them.
160
:I remember making my first sale in week
three of joining the company with Chris.
161
:So I would say the first six months
you know, I kind of came in and I
162
:was like, every customer is sort
of getting something different.
163
:Everyone's paying a different amount.
164
:We're grossly undercharging for
the value that we're providing.
165
:And really, I would say the first
thing that I was trying to focus on
166
:in coming in and using my experience
and expertise and working with Chris
167
:was like, who is our real customer?
168
:And what is really the
core set of services that.
169
:Really are our core competency and
what are like, sure, we can do these
170
:other things, but are those things
the things that we're really good at.
171
:So I'd say in the first six
months of working together,
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:we really were able to craft.
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:I would say what is still
probably the core of our business
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:strategy, Which was leaning into
demand strategy, media execution.
175
:I built out the creative team from
scratch in the beginning of:
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:We added that once we realized that
was a key need of our customers and
177
:really started playing around with
pricing and increasing those prices.
178
:we then had the COVID boom.
179
:So 2021 was our hyper growth
year, And sure me and Chris would
180
:probably like we're so smart.
181
:We grew this amazing agency.
182
:It's just because of us
because we were so smart.
183
:We're so good.
184
:And it's not to diminish either
of our skill sets, but I think
185
:it was predominantly a function
of the market conditions.
186
:If I'm being honest, we had
all of this VC money coming in.
187
:high pressure to grow as well as a ton
of money to inject into that growth and
188
:a total lack of consideration for any,
customer acquisition costs or any other
189
:unit economics that mattered, right?
190
:So that was perfect for us.
191
:And honestly, in that period, I remember
when I joined, think we were charging
192
:our clients like around 8k per month.
193
:And we rode that COVID boom, I think at
the peak, we were charging between like
194
:35 and 45k per month for our services.
195
:With some gradual price
increases up until that point.
196
:Obviously, the market has corrected.
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:We're around now 20 to 27k a month.
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:But that's when we had hyper growth.
199
:So it was, how do we hire people?
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:How do we build a repeatable
process for service delivery?
201
:How do we design the delivery
process so that it's repeatable?
202
:How do we find the right talent?
203
:How do we train them?
204
:In an agency, the team is the product.
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:the people that you get, how you enable
them, how they feel about being at
206
:the job is crucial to be successful.
207
:That's when I started leveraging
the core marketing principles for
208
:talent acquisition, I basically
recruited probably the first 60
209
:people at the company personally
and started posting on LinkedIn.
210
:We later started a podcast
called Talent Destination.
211
:Was really intentional about why
working at our agency would be different
212
:from working at other agencies.
213
:The reputation isn't great, Burnout too
many customers, Not caring about the
214
:individual, Unable to take vacation,
Difficult customers that you have to
215
:deal with without any Support from the
leadership team, so everything that I was
216
:doing was like, how do we not be that?
217
:How do we be the opposite of the
negative connotations of what
218
:it's like to work at an agency?
219
:How do we assemble all the
marketing Avengers all in one place?
220
:So people wanna come work with us because
of the caliber of talent that we have.
221
:So recruiting, I would say like
offers, pricing, packaging.
222
:That was like a big thing I focused on.
223
:Then it was talent, and then it was
identifying the people on the team
224
:that were really strong operationally
and giving them clarity on where we
225
:needed to focus to, to actually scale.
226
:That said, We grew so fast
that things started to break.
227
:That's what happened and it's funny
because both Chris and I really hate the
228
:growth at all costs mentality, but we fell
into growth at all costs because of all
229
:of those factors that I just explained
and dealt with the same, consequences.
230
:And repercussions, 2022, 2023,
we're challenging, The B2B SaaS
231
:ecosystem started to erode collapse.
232
:If I'm being dramatic and we had
to pivot, we had to lower pricing.
233
:We had a delivery model
for those higher pricing.
234
:So that cut into our operating margins.
235
:We had clients that were just going out
of business or running out of money.
236
:that impacted retention greatly.
237
:People wanted to keep working with us,
but were like, I literally can't pay you
238
:because we're in survival mode right now.
239
:And then we had to test and pivot.
240
:We started unbundling services.
241
:Chris, the forever visionary, forever
innovator, was trying to rethink our
242
:category positioning or our offering.
243
:So we tried lots of different things
over the course of that time period.
244
:Which I think was needed.
245
:Another by product of that though,
was creating a lot of confusion in the
246
:market about who we were, what we did.
247
:I've taken sales calls at
Refine Labs the whole time.
248
:Sometimes we've had help.
249
:Sometimes it's only been me.
250
:That period was when I'd start
a sales call and this is how
251
:most of them would start.
252
:I love Refine Labs.
253
:I love you guys.
254
:I love the podcast.
255
:I love Chris, blah, blah, blah, blah.
256
:So what do you guys do?
257
:What do you actually do?
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:I was like, Oh, okay, here we go.
259
:So taking over this was a very
intentional decision to let Chris
260
:effectively start a new venture
focused on some of the new patterns
261
:that he was seeing in go to market.
262
:So that's really what
posetto is all about, right?
263
:Let's get really clear and focused
about what refined labs is.
264
:Let's split off a new venture that can
be focused on what Chris does best, which
265
:is identifying new patterns, innovating
off of that, continuing to, explore
266
:new concepts and further define them.
267
:And let's treat RefineLabs for what it is.
268
:A demand generation agency.
269
:And so as I've taken over, I've
really focused on clarity, on
270
:continuing to adjust pricing and
packaging to meet our customers needs.
271
:Justin Norris: I'm curious, stepping
into the CEO role, has it been a
272
:shock to the system in any way?
273
:Has it been surprising at all?
274
:differences from what you would
expect or is it just felt like a
275
:natural extension of a lot of the
work that you were doing already?
276
:Megan Bowen: So I think some additional
context on this, Chris and I had a
277
:unique leadership style in running
the business when I first joined.
278
:I would say from 2020 to 2022,
we very much were acting like
279
:co leaders of the company.
280
:And we were also leveraging
each other's strengths.
281
:So, for example, I always managed
the senior leadership team directly.
282
:And Chris and I, although it would
evolve and change, we effectively
283
:Divided and conquered on all of the
key responsibilities that a typical
284
:CEO and maybe a COO would have and
so from an internal perspective.
285
:I don't think that was the
perception externally, but from
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:an internal perspective, we
were always acting in that way.
287
:And then in the beginning of 2023.
288
:And when things were particularly
difficult, we had a big layoff in
289
:December of 2022, which was difficult.
290
:I would say beginning of that 2023
period, I started to take on a lot more
291
:CEO like responsibilities internally.
292
:Chris was really guiding me.
293
:Going down this path of experimenting
with what has now become posetto at that
294
:time and over the course of 2023 him and I
were discussing about how we were going to
295
:play this out and what it would look like.
296
:And so I would say for the
majority of last year, I was
297
:doing the role in many ways.
298
:From an internal perspective, and so
when the external announcement went
299
:out in January, it was exciting and
fun, and I had a lot of, really kind
300
:messages of congratulations, et cetera.
301
:But for me in January, it
didn't feel that different.
302
:It felt like over the course of 2023 when
I personally was undergoing some of those
303
:adjustments and that adjustment period,
including trying to really figure out.
304
:Who can I identify on the team that
can start to take on the COO and the
305
:operational stuff that I'm doing so I can
create more space for focusing on some
306
:other things that are also important.
307
:think
308
:Justin Norris: And so diving in
a little bit into the, I'm going
309
:to call it agency operations.
310
:I don't even know if that's a real
term, but I'll use it to describe
311
:The thing that you have been doing and.
312
:This is something that I learned as well.
313
:And it was on the agency
side for seven years.
314
:And you start out, you're like, I'm good
at this, I think X, and I'm going to go
315
:and be a consultant for that, skill set.
316
:in the beginning, that's okay.
317
:And then as you start to add and add
like, Oh, I built this really complex
318
:thing and actually is a business of
itself to run and make sure that we
319
:are delivering a quality service in
a repeatable way and that it scales
320
:and you've really touched already.
321
:On a lot of those points.
322
:But I don't think there's
a lot of playbooks.
323
:I think there are few books and
things out there about running
324
:service based businesses, but I think
people just sort of discover it.
325
:They're like, Oh, I got to run this thing.
326
:What was that learning
process like for you?
327
:Kind of figuring that out.
328
:It
329
:Megan Bowen: It's really hard.
330
:Running a
331
:service business is hard.
332
:People should think carefully
before they sign up for it.
333
:So, there are a couple,
I think key challenges.
334
:I'll talk a little bit about I
of:
335
:We had, so at the tail end of the
COVID boom year of:
336
:acquisition was out of control, I
literally couldn't hire fast enough
337
:to meet the demand that we had.
338
:It was insane.
339
:At one point we were signing
contracts that didn't have
340
:start dates until 90 days away.
341
:Because I just didn't have a team
available to assign to them and people
342
:were still signing up and waiting
basically for their turn to work with us.
343
:And we were bumping up our prices.
344
:We were assigning all sorts of
companies, big and small, relatively
345
:straightforward, very complex
businesses with massive budgets.
346
:We had this initial hypothesis on
capacity planning, which is every
347
:team should manage four to five
customers and that would allow
348
:us to achieve our target margins,
target revenue efficiency metrics.
349
:started getting a lot of feedback
of:
350
:that everyone was feeling burnt out.
351
:The workload was unsustainable.
352
:they weren't sure what changes they
could make to make it sustainable.
353
:And that was when I raised the red flag
to Chris and I was like, we are headed for
354
:the iceberg if we do not make a change.
355
:everyone on the team is feeling this.
356
:This is not one or two people.
357
:This is the broad sentiment.
358
:We have to address this and
we have to make a change.
359
:And so, we did an
exploration of the problem.
360
:We effectively came to realize
that we were treating all of our
361
:customers the same when they were not.
362
:And that was the first time we
actually segmented our customers.
363
:Across tiers and assigned a different
set of resources to them and we could
364
:no longer rely on just like, well,
every team gets four to five customers.
365
:It was like, no, that doesn't work.
366
:We need to reflect the nuances
of the different segments.
367
:We need to realize that maybe, you
know, in the tier one segment, sure,
368
:they can have four to five customers.
369
:If they have a tier three
client, they can only manage two.
370
:And that also forced us to rethink.
371
:our pricing and packaging.
372
:We had to charge those tier three clients
more than the tier one, So that was
373
:a defining moment in our operations.
374
:we segmented the customer base and
we made a plan and presented it back
375
:to the team of how over a two month
period, we were going to reassign
376
:accounts to load balance everybody's
book of business appropriately.
377
:That was challenging because we had to
continue to delay net new revenue in order
378
:to, Prioritize not burning out the team.
379
:And we still haven't figured this out
completely because the market drove
380
:our prices down and in many ways we
still have an expensive delivery model.
381
:And so it has been an ongoing constant
effort of how are we and pricing,
382
:how are we designing, What the
delivery experience is like, how many
383
:people are on every type of account.
384
:But I think that story kind of
illustrates the challenge that we had.
385
:What I'm proud of us, what we
did though, is we prioritize the
386
:health of the team ahead of net new
revenue acquisition, which I don't
387
:think happens in every context.
388
:So we were willing to delay revenue
growth because we realized that
389
:this was so important to solve.
390
:And I think for any agency owner, you
have to put your team before the customer.
391
:Because your team is the product.
392
:It is the customer experience.
393
:If they're burnt out, if they're not
set up for success, if they're not
394
:equipped, your customer will know.
395
:They will feel it.
396
:And that's the prevalent theme
that I see in agencies that
397
:have an opportunity to improve.
398
:They consistently prioritize the customer
and are not making that connection.
399
:Justin Norris: that's what leads to that
negative reputation you alluded to about
400
:agencies that they're meat grinders,
that they don't care about their people.
401
:That was my trepidation
in joining an agency.
402
:And I mean, I was lucky I ended up
somewhere great that also took that
403
:approach and I think more and more
are starting to figure that out.
404
:But yeah,
405
:it's a scary thing to, work 50,
60 billable hours a week and,
406
:be burnt out and, Not have a
management that has your back.
407
:It isn't sustainable.
408
:curious the axis of segmentation
for the client base was just based
409
:on company size Like was that the
defining thing between the different
410
:tiers or were there other factors that
influenced how much support they needed?
411
:Megan Bowen: It's a good question.
412
:I think there was a correlation with
company size, but it really came down
413
:to a few factors and more about the
dynamic of the actual, product mix
414
:and the total ad budget we managed.
415
:So I think where we distinctly saw an
account taking significantly more hours
416
:to serve was You know, significantly
higher managing, 50 K per month is very
417
:different than a million per month just
in terms of tasks to be completed jobs to
418
:be done hours needed to dedicate to it.
419
:And then the additional layer is,
there are some companies that have
420
:one target market, one customer
segment and one product offering.
421
:So, I need to market this one
product to this one segment, and
422
:I need to get that exactly right.
423
:There's another type of company
that actually has a suite of
424
:products, 3, different solutions.
425
:And maybe they sell into SMB
and mid market and enterprise.
426
:That's actually like five
companies in one company.
427
:Even if their ad budget is
relatively small, right?
428
:Even if that ad budget is a hundred
K and not a million, there's
429
:a lot more complexity in that.
430
:And it's not like we just take
the one strategy and use that
431
:strategy for all your product lines
and all your customer segments.
432
:It doesn't work that way.
433
:So I would say those were
the two biggest factors that.
434
:effectively classified a customer
as like a tier one versus a tier
435
:three, thinking tier one more
simple, tier three more complex.
436
:There was a general correlation with
tier three customers being overall
437
:larger companies, more employees,
higher revenue, but not always
438
:the case, interestingly enough.
439
:Justin Norris: I mean, my background
was more of a, hourly billing model.
440
:It just made sense for the type of work
that we did, which was primarily, you
441
:know, systems configuration, it like
products for your pricing and packaging.
442
:It was more of like a
monthly retainer model.
443
:generally is preferred.
444
:People don't like, the idea of just
trading hours for dollars because,
445
:there's a limit to how far you can scale.
446
:But the flip side, I guess, like you
talked about is you may end up in a
447
:package with a client that starts just
sucking you dry in terms of hours.
448
:Megan Bowen: Yes.
449
:Justin Norris: do you set limits on that?
450
:how do you put boundaries to
make sure that doesn't happen?
451
:Megan Bowen: I mean, we considered hourly
or usage based pricing multiple times
452
:over the course of the last few years.
453
:we challenged our business model at
many junctures and we've You know,
454
:it thought should we go in this
direction like it would, be easier,
455
:you know, I'm using air quotes to
charge that way so that we're not
456
:underwater with certain clients, right?
457
:What we kept coming back to though
was we didn't want to be hired
458
:for the hours that we spent.
459
:We wanted to be hired for the
impact that we would have.
460
:So we kept coming back to our flat
pricing, although there are some
461
:tiers, like You know, the 27k a
month package is for a 50k ad budget.
462
:If you're spending a million
bucks a month, you're going
463
:to pay us more than 27k.
464
:But we'll put that custom
pricing together for you.
465
:What it came down to then was in order
to ensure that we don't over deliver
466
:or erode our margins, We need to be
really intentional with the service
467
:design, as well as the sales process,
and how we are communicating what to
468
:expect, what they're going to get, how
you actually draft your scopes of work,
469
:so that if you run into an issue, you
have sort of agreed upon documentation
470
:to come back to, to reset expectations.
471
:But the most important thing is
aligning in the sales process,
472
:so there's no confusion.
473
:Right?
474
:I like to tell people I'm like,
I'm not a great sales rep.
475
:I open my sales calls being like, I'm
not here to convince you to hire us.
476
:The purpose of this call is for us to have
an initial conversation and evaluate if
477
:we think there's a potential fit for a
partnership and then we'll keep talking.
478
:And I actually will bring things up to
almost talk people out of hiring us.
479
:If I see a potential,
yellow flag or a red flag.
480
:people with low ACVs.
481
:Oh, our product costs 4, 000 a month.
482
:I'm like, yo, I can get you more
customers to pay you 4, 000 a month,
483
:but if you're paying us our retainer.
484
:And you know 50 K per month ad
budget, your customer acquisition
485
:cost is going to be unsustainable?
486
:Is that something you wanna sign up for?
487
:Do you have a ton of VCPE money
that you're willing to just spend
488
:for a period of time to grow and
figure out how to right size later?
489
:Like if so, cool, we'll help you.
490
:If not, I'm not sure where the right.
491
:partner,
492
:Justin Norris: When you're on the hook
for delivering those, Bad projects or
493
:projects with bad fit clients and you
experience the pain of that You get way
494
:more motivated to filter people out up
front versus just selling like a sas
495
:product That's like air like whatever if
you don't succeed with it, maybe you don't
496
:care if you're the salesperson, but when
you're Also having to deliver and fulfill
497
:that you feel it way closer to home
498
:Megan Bowen: absolutely.
499
:And then, but honestly, that
approach serves me well.
500
:I create trust pretty quickly.
501
:People don't think I'm trying
to oversell or convince them.
502
:And then for those where it does
make sense, we're able to go through
503
:effectively like a due diligence process.
504
:I don't need, it's like not
even a sales process, right?
505
:It's like, okay, let's take each
of these steps that I've defined.
506
:That'll help us both evaluate that
this is going to be a good fit
507
:for both
508
:Justin Norris: I found I found the
same it's way better it's consultative
509
:you're not pitching anybody on anything
and You People really want to work
510
:with you, coming out the other end.
511
:you've mentioned a few times and I
agree with it so much that in a service
512
:business that people are the product
and the challenge that I've seen, you
513
:know, you start an agency and maybe you
have a few, Rock stars like a Sidney
514
:or a Sam or an Ashley, or I'm just
naming some people I know And then
515
:it becomes hard to like clone them.
516
:no matter what process you put in place,
there's an unevenness sometimes, or
517
:Not everybody has the same methodology.
518
:And so then you have this unevenness
in the service delivery, you know, not
519
:everyone gets the identical experience.
520
:You how did you tackle that?
521
:Or did you figure out a way to, clone
people and really keep that consistent?
522
:Megan Bowen: Yeah,
that's a great question.
523
:2021 in Q1 of 2022 was when we had
our hiring spree, probably like over
524
:that period of time hired 100 people.
525
:One of the consistent things that came
up in the interview process was this
526
:sense of imposter syndrome from highly
skilled, experienced demand marketers,
527
:just like I see Sam, I see Sydney,
Ashley, I see these people on LinkedIn.
528
:I don't know if I'm
good enough to be here.
529
:Like, am I going to be able
to succeed in this job?
530
:Right?
531
:Now, yes, you need a baseline
of hard skills and experience to
532
:be effective in this job, right?
533
:And we very intentionally qualify
for that in our recruiting process.
534
:And then we had a pretty strong process
whereby we would have obviously like
535
:conversation interviews, technical
interviews, and presentation interviews
536
:to be able to Check off all of
the boxes again for both sides and
537
:also to make sure that we always
recruited people that had in house
538
:experience, not agency experience.
539
:So I always was so intentional of
like, this is going to be really
540
:different from what you're used to.
541
:Here's how it's going to be different.
542
:These demand marketers in many cases.
543
:never had to think about developing
things like, you know, account management
544
:skills or executive communication skills.
545
:But for all the ones that we've
hired and many others, they
546
:were excited to develop those.
547
:And a lot of people viewed coming
to RefineLabs as, this is how I'm
548
:going to get my marketing MBA, I'm
going to come in here, I'm going
549
:to work here for a few years.
550
:I'm going to work with a
bunch of different companies.
551
:I'm going to figure out for myself
what works and what doesn't work.
552
:And so, we weren't perfect on
hiring, but we really had a
553
:process to bring in awesome people.
554
:That's been my favorite thing
about building this company is
555
:the talent density that we had and
continue to have is unmatched from
556
:any company that I've been at.
557
:Onboarding enablement is crucial.
558
:And then I think leadership.
559
:So Judy Sheriff, Evan Hughes on our
team have been here since the beginning
560
:and they've always led and managed.
561
:Our team of directors of demand gen.
562
:So I would say onboarding enablement
and like consistent leadership
563
:and a good recruiting process is
how you mitigate the risk there.
564
:But what I'll say is all of our
directors go through this beautiful
565
:professional development arc, and
it's so awesome to see, right?
566
:Like I'm okay if you join us and.
567
:I know that in two years,
you're going to be so much
568
:better than where you are today.
569
:But that's actually something I personally
get a lot of satisfaction about.
570
:How do you create the conditions
for people to be in a professional
571
:setting and truly accelerate their
career growth in a meaningful way?
572
:Mistakes get made.
573
:Customers might be let down
or upset here and there.
574
:That's okay.
575
:There are solutions to those things.
576
:Justin Norris: with that onboarding
process, did you have like a formal
577
:playbook or learning path, like something
documented that you put people through
578
:to have them come out with a sort of
consistent service delivery model, or
579
:was it learning through osmosis, buddy
system, shadowing, how did that work?
580
:Megan Bowen: All of those things.
581
:We have robust documentation,
which effectively also kind
582
:of became the vault in many
583
:ways.
584
:We always paired people up for
mentorship and buddy programs.
585
:We would have new hires sit in on
active client meetings because like to
586
:see it is to know it and to learn it.
587
:So we did all of those things.
588
:Justin Norris: And one of the biggest
challenges with the service based
589
:business is it's almost impossible
to stand on that tightrope of being
590
:perfectly staffed and like having
supply and demand meet each other.
591
:Like you're almost never there.
592
:too few people, and then you're
disappointing clients or you have too
593
:many people and all of a sudden your
margins are underwater and when I was
594
:on the agency side, we had a furloughs
at a period of time where people
595
:would voluntarily reduce their hours.
596
:So we didn't have to lay
people off was okay.
597
:But it's like, it's just
such a thin razor's edge that
598
:you're walking all the time.
599
:How did you manage that?
600
:Megan Bowen: Yeah, it's so hard.
601
:the first exposure was not enough people.
602
:So that was our first problem in 2021
when the demand exceeded the supply.
603
:It was a race to recruit and onboard.
604
:At the time, we had enough leverage.
605
:I couldn't believe it when I'd be on
a sales call and I'd be like, our next
606
:available start date is in 90 days,
but we're first come, first served.
607
:Send me the contract.
608
:I want to start in 90 days.
609
:Okay.
610
:Almost couldn't believe
it, but it happened a lot.
611
:So I think when we didn't have enough
supply, it was like, okay, how are we
612
:managing the expectations of customers?
613
:How are we staggering start dates?
614
:Okay.
615
:I also came up with what I
called, I said, you know, you're
616
:going to start in 90 days.
617
:However, we have a pre onboarding
process that I'm going to enroll you in.
618
:Because I needed to keep
them warm for 90 days, right?
619
:So we would send them information,
we would have them start to do
620
:some of the setup, we You know,
engage them with the vault.
621
:We had all these different things that
we did in an effort to kind of keep
622
:them engaged over that period of time.
623
:Then coming into 2022, probably like
Q2 22 is when we started seeing churn
624
:spike because of the impact of the
kind of macroeconomic conditions.
625
:And then that's when my
supply exceeded the demand.
626
:And that sucks.
627
:And we're bootstrapped.
628
:We don't have Lots of money
in the bank, and so we would
629
:hold off as long as we could.
630
:We did two layoffs in 2022, though
one in July and one in December.
631
:And coming into 2023, we did our
best to cut what we thought was
632
:needed in 22, but we knew that
it might not have been enough.
633
:So in 2023, I just took a very different
approach because of, The damage to the
634
:culture that those two layoffs created
we are always transparent, but I was the
635
:most transparent we had ever been with,
like, literally telling people, like,
636
:here's the road map, here's the runway.
637
:If we don't hit X, Y, and Z, we're
going to have, you know, Too many
638
:designers or too many X and we're
gonna have to make a change, right?
639
:And so although we had different folks
either leave voluntarily or if we had
640
:to kind of manage people out we were
doing it in a very different way of like
641
:boom you come into work and like you're
shocked with a layoff and it was like
642
:Hey, I can pay you until the end of May,
but I don't think I can pay you after.
643
:So you should probably start
to look for other work, right?
644
:The other thing that we did in
:
645
:bring revenue into the business.
646
:So we did a lot of experiments
and sold a lot of random things to
647
:generate revenue in the short term
as to try to like buy us more time,
648
:So there are no easy answers to this.
649
:I would always rather operate
with more demand than supply
650
:Justin Norris: did you find that operating
with that kind of radical transparency?
651
:Did that at least, help, you know,
that people felt that they were aware,
652
:and mitigate a bit of that anxiety.
653
:I
654
:Megan Bowen: I think it helped,
but I think it also hurt.
655
:I think it helped because people knew
where they stood, but then it hurt
656
:because then there was this sort of
perpetual state of anxiety that is
657
:very typical for companies to kind
of keep at the leadership level.
658
:And Only expose the broader company to,
and those kind of like shock layoff days.
659
:So I, don't know, to be honest I
was personally really drawn to
660
:saying we just can't do a third
layoff and blindside the team.
661
:So I'm gonna take this approach
and I know that it has downsides.
662
:I know that it's not the perfect approach,
but I think that this approach will
663
:help us rebuild trust over the long run.
664
:I would say the culture from
summer 22 towards I would say
665
:like Q3 23, like a year and a few
months was really challenging.
666
:But we persevered and I think
the benefit of that approach
667
:anyway is reestablished trust.
668
:With the team and leadership that we
were going to do everything that we
669
:could to prevent what happened in 2022.
670
:Even though maybe it makes people
feel a little uncomfortable.
671
:Justin Norris: mean, speaking
as someone who's been an agency
672
:employee, I've never been an agency
owner, but I would rather know, the,
673
:Megan Bowen: We're all adults here, right?
674
:Justin Norris: I think you can plan.
675
:And I don't know, I think the
trust part, even if everything
676
:isn't rosy all the time.
677
:If you feel that, you know,
where you stand and you know,
678
:where the company stands,
679
:Megan Bowen: Clear is
680
:kind,
681
:at the end of the day,
even if it's disappointing.
682
:Justin Norris: just thinking a little
bit about, as you alluded to, you
683
:know, Chris, being the kind of visionary
and the innovator and, and always
684
:thinking of new things, has the core
philosophy, the core approach, Changed
685
:at all over the past four or five years
686
:Megan Bowen: the core of the strategy
and the philosophy has remained the same.
687
:The ways that it has evolved
has been additive, right?
688
:Additive strategies, additive tactics
additive measurement approaches,
689
:but the core of it hasn't changed.
690
:I get this question a lot from people
because they're like, the LinkedIn,
691
:you know, echo chamber, like everybody
says demand creation, demand capture,
692
:like these are like old concepts, like
this isn't new, everybody's talking
693
:about this, but I'm like, okay.
694
:I'm like, I literally talk to seven
to ten companies a week, and I can
695
:tell you confidently that 80 percent
of the B2B companies out there
696
:are not doing any of it at all.
697
:And so I'm like, I get it.
698
:I get it.
699
:We're in this echo chamber.
700
:I get it.
701
:We've been saying the same
thing for four to five years.
702
:The problem is still there.
703
:The market opportunity is still there.
704
:Just because it's been discussed a lot
doesn't mean it's been adopted widely.
705
:And so this is what I
like to remind people of.
706
:I'm like, you know that you're doing your
job well in branding and positioning your
707
:company and telling your story when you
start to get sick of telling your story.
708
:And that actually means
you're not quite done yet.
709
:You need to keep telling it.
710
:And this is where I think Chris
and I take a different approach.
711
:You know, one of the things that kind
of I was drawn to Chris was his like
712
:visionary spirit, his innovative spirit,
his desire to create new things,
713
:develop new language for concepts.
714
:And I love that.
715
:It's exciting.
716
:It's cool.
717
:Like it's fun.
718
:It's inspiring.
719
:I lean more on the Direct, blunt,
clear, like let's just be clear, let's
720
:be specific, let's explain things,
let's not get too caught up on some of
721
:the language or this and that, right?
722
:And I'm not saying my approach
is right or better, I'm just
723
:saying it's how I operate, right?
724
:It's how I see the world,
it's how I communicate.
725
:And so, relative to where
Refine Labs is in its journey.
726
:It is an established business
now, and what's most important is
727
:actually operational excellence.
728
:Actually making a huge dent in the
number, the percentage of B2B companies
729
:that are actually shifting their
strategies and their execution tactics.
730
:That's the game now for RefineLabs.
731
:So, now, if you look at Pacetto,
Chris's new venture, he's back in the
732
:exploration, innovation, and innovation.
733
:Seeing things, describing patterns,
coming to new conclusions,
734
:that's his happy place, right?
735
:That's his zone of genius.
736
:But Posetto is a three person startup, has
a desire to be a software company, right?
737
:And sort of they're focusing on
tech enabled services right now.
738
:So just like the early days of
RefineLabs, when that was true for
739
:the category that we're in now,
It's just a different approach is
740
:needed given the stage that we're at.
741
:Right.
742
:So it's recognizing that and I think it's
just and that was I think where Chris and
743
:I find it finally came to the conclusion
that this was the right decision
744
:and that we could divide and
conquer in this way to make
745
:both companies successful.
746
:Justin Norris: makes perfect sense.
747
:And I think that's also a good lead
into probably the last question we'll
748
:have time for around making a dent.
749
:In the market and actually, shifting
people to these new practices.
750
:And the vault, which is sort of the
way I think of it as kind of like
751
:your productized IP library, where
you have all your best practices.
752
:I've had an account there.
753
:to kind of broaden the access
to that, which I think is a
754
:really exciting opportunity.
755
:Maybe you can just tell us
a little bit about that.
756
:I'm really gotten a lot of value
out of the resources there.
757
:And you recently announced a partnership
with Aspireship, to kind of broaden
758
:the access to that, which I think
is a really exciting opportunity.
759
:Maybe you can just tell us
a little bit about that.
760
:Megan Bowen: Yeah, I'm
really excited about this.
761
:So we've known Corey at
Aspireship for a long time.
762
:He used to be a Refine Labs customer.
763
:He hired us back in, in early 2021 to
grow their business and have really
764
:developed a great friendship with him.
765
:Their platform is awesome.
766
:And they were initially anchoring on
sales and customer success courses.
767
:I actually filmed the customer
success course with Corey, given my
768
:background and experience and their
whole, mission is so noble, right?
769
:They're here to like upskill
and reskill the workforce.
770
:So people that maybe came from education
or manufacturing or other industries
771
:could kind of break into B2B SaaS
if that was what they wanted to do.
772
:And this was a vehicle with
which they could build their
773
:skills and get their first job.
774
:So Corey approached me in the beginning
of this year and said I've been
775
:wanting to build a marketing course
and I can't think of a better partner.
776
:To do it with and refine labs, and
I think this is an opportunity.
777
:You know, he's like, what's
your plan for the vault?
778
:I think there's an opportunity here for
us to create another Avenue where we
779
:can leverage all this amazing content
you've created in a different context
780
:to broaden and extend the impact, And
they were clear financial incentives
781
:for everybody for a spireship for refine
labs, and it's actually totally free.
782
:To be marketers.
783
:If they go through this application
process and get approved.
784
:And so it was a no brainer to me.
785
:I think that the vault started as
a content and information product.
786
:At one point last year, we thought maybe
the vault would be the foundational for
787
:this go to market software analytics
that Chris has visions for it.
788
:Pacetto.
789
:And so when we decided he was going
to separate that entity, it was
790
:an opportunity to be like, what is
the long term plan for the vault
791
:then, if that's not it anymore?
792
:And really lean into content,
education, and community.
793
:And so, my goal is, you can still
buy an account to the vault, right?
794
:And we'll still monetize it in
that way, although I actually,
795
:significantly lowered pricing to
make it more accessible to people.
796
:But this is how we'll actually be
able to extend our impact, right?
797
:I know that if we can get thousands of
B2B marketers to go through this course,
798
:that we're effectively educating and
training like the next generation of
799
:CMOs on how to think about marketing,
And that's honestly, that was one of
800
:the main reasons I teamed up with Chris
to begin with was we had both been
801
:personally burned by growth at all
costs, by mismanagement of go to market
802
:strategies at companies, and we wanted
to be a part of that change, right?
803
:So I think what I'm most excited about
is Aspireship and this partnership gives
804
:us the ability to, broaden the impact
in a way beyond just hiring us as your
805
:agency, not everybody's going to hire
us as their agency, and that's fine.
806
:Additionally, to the point we were talking
about earlier, if we can really generate a
807
:high margin revenue stream for the vault.
808
:It allows us to weather some of those
inevitable bad quarters or storms
809
:that come and keep our team intact.
810
:Justin Norris: Well,
that's super exciting.
811
:And again, you know, have firsthand
experience with the resources.
812
:They're just super valuable.
813
:being able to access that for free
Hope people take advantage of it.
814
:Best way to access that if people
are interested, they just go
815
:through the refined labs website,
816
:Megan Bowen: Just go to
the Refine Labs website.
817
:You'll actually see a banner on the
website for the next couple months.
818
:Click here to learn more
about the Aspire ship.
819
:You can fill out a quick form to
request information, and then we'll
820
:send you all the details to get started.
821
:Super easy.
822
:Just go to refine
823
:labs.com.
824
:Justin Norris: Amazing.
825
:Well, that's very exciting.
826
:And yeah, Megan, such a pleasure
again, sitting down with you.
827
:Super interesting conversation.
828
:Thank you for coming on the show.
829
:Megan Bowen: Thank you for having me.
830
:I really appreciate it.