The Future of Data Privacy in Digital Marketing - Stephane Hamel
Every company pays lip service to privacy. But few seem to really value it in practice.
In marketing and sales, we rely on personal and behavioural data for so many commonplace tactics, and this reliance is only increasing.
It's a kind of arms race. Even if you wanted to, it feels like you can't afford to give up the perceived advantages of using personal data.
And even as we continually hear about the "death" of this or that type of tracking, the reality is that hundreds of billions of advertising revenue are on the line. The incentives to keep collecting and commodifying our data are huge.
I wanted to dig deeper into the current state of privacy in marketing today, and I could think of no better person to reach out to than Stephane Hamel.
He is a legendary practitioner and thought leader in the digital analytics space and one of the foremost advocates for privacy and ethics in marketing.
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About Today's Guest
Stephane Hamel is a digital analytics and marketing expert with over 35 years experience. He has spoken at over 150 industry events and was named one of the Most Influential Industry Contributors by the Digital Analytics Association. As an educator, he’s taught thousands of students at institutions including UBC, SimpliLearn, ULaval, Harvard, YorkU, and others. In recent years, he’s focused his attention on the ethical use of data in a marketing context
https://www.linkedin.com/in/shamel/
Key Topics
- [00:00] - Introduction
- [01:49] - Current state of privacy in marketing
- [03:30] - Vision of a truly privacy-oriented company
- [08:20] - How a 100% consent-based model would work
- [10:59] - Is privacy-respecting marketing better marketing?
- [13:26] - Analogy of seatbelts
- [17:32] - Getting people to care about privacy
- [20:50] - Advertising in a privacy-first world
- [24:21] - Conflict between privacy and commercial interests
- [31:41] - Google and the “death” of third-party cookies
- [36:47] - AI literacy
- [41:44] - Career impact of being privacy-oriented
Learn More
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Transcript
So a few weeks ago, there was a dust up on LinkedIn
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:about a new intent tool that enables
marketers to de anonymize specific
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:individuals that visit your website.
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:So not just companies, but specific
individuals, which tool it is and the
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:people involved aren't really the point of
the story, the incident stuck in my mind.
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:Though, because of how it reflected
our attitudes towards privacy in the
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:marketing world, so many commonplace
marketing practices do very similar
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:things, like when we drop a marketing
automation cookie that lets us see all
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:of a user's activity on our website.
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:Or when we de anonymize a company and
get a location that lets us triangulate
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:a user's identity, or when we give money
to massive corporations like Google and
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:Facebook, there's entire business models
essentially predicated on various forms.
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:Of identity profiling.
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:So the relationship of marketing to
privacy is complicated to say the least.
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:Never totally sat well with me, although
it is something I've accepted kind of
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:as a cost of being in this industry.
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:However, the whole incident really made
me want to dig deeper into the current
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:state of privacy in marketing today.
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:And so I could think of no better
person to reach out to than Stefan Amel.
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:He is a legendary practitioner and thought
leader in the digital analytics space and
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:one of the foremost advocates for privacy.
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:And ethics and marketing.
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:I first met Stefan incidentally
about 12 years ago when he was
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:my instructor for a web analytics
certificate that I was taking.
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:And I have followed his work ever since.
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:So Stefan, I really appreciate
you being here today.
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:Stephane Hamel: Thank you for having me.
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:It's a really a pleasure
even after 12 years.
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:That's amazing.
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:Justin Norris: Let's dive in and maybe as
a first step, just to understand from your
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:point of view, you think about this a lot.
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:A lot of marketers go about their
day without giving too much thought
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:necessarily to the privacy piece.
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:From your perspective, where are
we in terms of our attitudes, our
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:practices with respect to privacy?
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:Have we gotten better?
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:Have we gotten worse?
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:Or is it kind of a mess all in all?
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:Stephane Hamel: that's
a really good question.
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:Is it better or worse?
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:better in a sense that there
is more consumer awareness.
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:Sadly, maybe because of all the data
leaks stories that we hear in the
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:press and so on marketers are more.
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:Aware and conscious about the legal
frameworks be at the GDPR in Europe or
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:the new law 25 in Quebec or even what's
happening in the States and so on.
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:The negative side of things
is that I see that the.
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:Ad network ecosystem or all the ad tech
industry is basically saying, Oh, with the
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:death of third party cookies organizations
are enticed to collect more first party
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:data one end and the marketing and ad tech
industry is trying to find other ways of.
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:Continuing to collect as much
information as before, if not
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:more information than before.
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:So the net result is that from a
privacy perspective, I'm not sure
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:the end result is going to be
better than using, let's say, third
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:party cookies and stuff like that.
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:It's evolving very quickly.
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:there are positive and
negative sides to it.
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:But generally speaking, I think we're
aiming into a more privacy friendly
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:marketing ecosystem on the net.
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:So.
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:That's cross our fingers.
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:Justin Norris: your example that you
just gave, you kind of alluded to it.
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:A lot of marketers and a lot
of companies approach privacy
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:kind of like a set of rules.
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:That they have to comply with,
but they can also get around
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:in legitimate ways if they can.
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:So, you know, we set up one loophole
and then, so we go around it.
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:Instead of using cookies, we use,
some other form of tracking users.
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:So it's kind of complying with the letter
of things, but not necessarily the spirit.
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:And you recently wrote about this
distinction between legal compliance
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:and having a true privacy orientation.
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:What would it mean for a company
to actually be privacy oriented?
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:Stephane Hamel: For me, the huge
difference between, especially if
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:you look at the GDPR in Europe it
wasn't, enacted several years ago.
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:So they went through all of the steps
and still are, dealing with you know,
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:clarifications of the legal text and
having specific cases where they can say,
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:okay, this is a good example, or this
is a bad example with bill 25 in Quebec,
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:we see that the same thing is going on.
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:So the law is there companies are trying
to comply, but mostly from what I've seen
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:is that for now, at least it's more like.
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:Legal compliance.
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:Okay.
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:I need to do whatever I need to
do the minimum amount of things
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:in order not to get a slap on
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:my wrist need to check the
box that says, Oh, yes, I've
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:done this and that and so on.
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:And this creates a scenario where.
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:You comply from a legal standpoint,
but you don't necessarily comply from
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:the principles of privacy from, basics
of marketing, which is listening to
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:your customers and being aware that
if you have a banner on your website.
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:And you offer them the
choice to opt in not.
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:If they say no, I reject all cookies and
I don't want to be tracked, then why do
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:you try to find ways to circumvent that
and say, Oh yeah, okay, I'm going to use
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:this tool that, It doesn't use cookies.
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:So it must be right.
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:Or I can still use Google analytics
because Google tells us there's a consent
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:mode that we should trust Google that when
they say, Oh yeah, that's privacy aware.
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:Trust us.
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:You can use that.
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:There was no problem.
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:So, my hope is that we're going
to go from legal compliance
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:where really, it's a pain.
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:It's an expense.
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:And you need resources.
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:It's a distraction.
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:It's a barrier to innovation and
so on and shift the mindset so
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:that being privacy aware from the
principles respective the ethics of it.
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:It means that now it's not an expense.
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:It's an investment.
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:It means that it becomes a brand value.
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:In the long term, and that
financially it's worth something.
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:It's an opportunity for innovation.
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:It's an opportunity to say, okay,
I've been using all of those
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:marketing tools for so many years.
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:Do I really need all of those?
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:all of those tools that
are collecting data?
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:Each one trying to pull more data
into whatever their system is.
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:So shifting the mindset a little bit.
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:Justin Norris: Are there any
companies that are actually doing
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:this today or does it remain
aspirational from your point of view?
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:Stephane Hamel: Sadly I guess I have to
admit that it's more aspirational than,
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:really seeing companies that are really
embracing the whole principles of privacy.
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:But I think that's going to
change slowly, gradually.
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:We're going to see changes where
one example that I like to mention,
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:which I find absolutely absurd is
when you look at a privacy policy.
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:Oftentimes the first statement is your
privacy is really important to us.
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:should be a value proposition
from that brand, right?
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:But then you realize that if you
are in Europe, you get a banner.
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:If you are in Quebec, you get a banner
because the law forces you to put a
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:banner and say, okay we want to collect
such and such information and so on.
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:But if you're anywhere in the rest of
Canada, for example, there's no banner.
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:If you are in the States.
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:There is no banner and it's open bar.
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:So it's like, okay, your privacy
from a brand perspective, your
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:privacy is important to us,
but it depends where you live.
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:to me, it doesn't make sense.
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:Either the privacy is important to
the brand as a whole, or it's not.
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:Justin Norris: And obviously I
smiled when you said, you know,
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:that line, your privacy importance
cause they all start with that.
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:So it's a little bit of like a
fig leaf or in a marketing speak.
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:Is privacy actually important?
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:So let's think about a potential
company that really did value privacy.
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:And you have this hashtag you often use
in your posts, no consent, no tracking.
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:So a hundred percent consent based
model, maybe just walk us through what
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:it would look like for a company to
be using that model, what they would
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:collect, not collect, how they would
interact with customers and so on.
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:Stephane Hamel: So I guess I came up
with the no consent, no tracking hashtag
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:just because It's an opportunity to step
back and think about it as a marketer,
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:before you actually do something.
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:So, I didn't want it
to be like an absolute.
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:I want it to be an opportunity
for really thinking about your
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:marketing tactics and being proud
about your marketing tactics also.
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:one of the things I often mention is
that we should be proud of what we do
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:from a marketing standpoint and not
wake up in the morning, being afraid
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:that, Oh, it the day where someone will
tweet something or post something What
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:we're doing in our marketing tactics
and we'll say, Oh yeah this company says
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:they do this, but in reality they do
something else or they are creepy and
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:they are using tools that are arvested.
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:Too much information, stuff like that.
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:So really, basically no constant,
no tracking is just an invitation to
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:think about the principles of privacy,
of data minimization, of consent
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:of control and things like that.
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:so a company could do that
fairly easily by looking at.
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:The Martek stack that they use
right now and seeing if any of
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:those tools are absolutely necessary
in the first step, what data they
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:are collecting for which purpose.
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:So basically doing an audit.
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:Of your martech stack and seeing if
it's all relevant using a consent
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:banner on your website where there's
no tricks you know, you have the
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:same types of buttons for agree and
reject, for example, no dark pattern
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:anywhere and respect the user choice.
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:I don't want to be tracked, then.
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:Don't track them.
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:Actually, one of the mistake,
is that most banners that we
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:see are talking about cookies.
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:But it doesn't really matter.
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:And I'm not talking from a
legal standpoint, but from a
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:principle standpoint, it doesn't
matter if it's cookies or not.
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:What matter is, are you
collecting personal information?
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:I don't care how you do it.
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:Whether you use cookies or
fingerprinting or any other method.
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:If I say I don't want to be
tracked, then respect my choice.
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:Otherwise what happened is that
consumers are taking control
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:and they are using ad blockers.
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:And stuff like that.
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:So at the end of the day, the marketers
are not in any better situation.
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:Justin Norris: if we model through
mentally what that consent respecting
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:mode of marketing would look like?
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:I guess one thing that comes to
mind is less gating, less trading
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:contact information for content.
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:And Lo and behold, a lot of people now are
coming around to the notion that that's
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:actually just a better customer experience
and actually better marketing in general.
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:Do you think that respecting the
principles of privacy leads us to better
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:marketing in all cases, in some cases,
or is it sort of an, it depends scenario?
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:Stephane Hamel: Well, I guess I have
to say, you know, I've done so much
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:consulting that I have to say, it depends.
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:Justin Norris: Of course.
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:Stephane Hamel: That's the
universal question to everything.
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:But seriously, I think there are so
many scenarios where marketing could
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:be improved if we only went back to the
roots of marketing there were marketing
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:campaigns before the web and before
the internet and the world worked.
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:existed, There was TV,
radio, print and so on.
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:Now everything is digitized.
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:But the concepts of
marketing remain the same.
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:It's building trust.
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:It's listening to your customers.
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:It's offering value.
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:And I think it's been too easy
for people to simply, okay,
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:I'm going to spend X amount of
dollars on Google or on Facebook.
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:So it's, Kind of reassuring to say, Oh I'm
spending a couple of thousands of dollars.
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:I see how much traffic I get and
I see the net result of that.
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:Well, as much as possible, given the
data that I can collect, it's kind
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:of reassuring to work in this way.
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:And that's how it's been for
the past, maybe 20 years.
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:Can you imagine how the internet
would be if from the start.
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:The consumer had retained control over
the data they want to share instead of
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:the evolution that we've seen, where
Oh, there's a new trick and there's
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:a new technology that allows you to,
you know, use geolocation and, collect
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:so much information from different,
browser behavior, navigation and so on.
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:And then, Oh yeah.
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:Okay.
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:We can be data brokers and.
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:Merge the data in one place
or several places merged that
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:with other sources of data.
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:Oh, that's the only rail.
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:That's a gold mine, except that
the person that benefits the most.
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:I would say probably the least
is the consumer themselves.
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:So I think we need to change that, prior
bang and think differently, just like, you
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:know, in, in the courses that I'm teaching
I'm talking about the evolution of the
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:seatbelts in cars where initially it
was, you know, consumers didn't want it.
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:And car manufacturers said,
Oh, that's an additional cost.
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:And it's going to be more expensive.
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:It's a barrier to innovation and so on.
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:And look at where we are today.
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:We have super efficient cars, very
secure very safe because we don't only
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:have seatbelts, but we have airbags
and we have the frame of the car.
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:So all that innovation came because
security was an important aspect.
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:And consumers can choose between cars that
are reputed to be more secure than others.
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:So privacy is going to be the same.
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:We, consumers will pick, will choose
brands that they trust because they
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:see that privacy is part of the
value proposition of that brand.
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:In the long run, I think
that's how we're going to win.
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:I would say the privacy battle.
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:Justin Norris: taking the seat belt as
an analogy, you think perhaps that, you
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:know, our attitudes towards privacy will
evolve from something that's let's pay lip
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:service to it, but get around it to more
like, no it's really going to be baked
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:into the model and people are going to
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:respect it.
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:Stephane Hamel: Yeah.
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:I think so.
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:Because going back to that seatbelt
analogy, it took regulations and laws
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:to impose that people wear a seatbelt.
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:And it also took about 20, 25 years of.
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:marketing campaign in education so that
people realize that when you get in
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:a car you know, put on your seatbelt.
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:So it has become a security
by default in a way.
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:I hope it won't take 20, 25 years
to educate people so that privacy
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:by default becomes the norm.
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:That it becomes automatic that when
you purchase something new, the default
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:password is not password, for example.
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:that's so obvious.
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:But how many internet devices and
IOTs and, things like that were
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:shipped with default passwords?
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:That's not privacy and
security by default.
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:When I do audits, I see the consent
banner, I reject all, and I see there's
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:still tracking going on not just one by
mistake, it's almost like a deliberate
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:facade so that you, okay, yeah, we
have a consent banner, we have the nice
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:legal text from a technical standpoint,
it simply doesn't work because the
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:privacy engineer which is a basically
a new role that we see emerging.
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:You need to have someone from an
engineering standpoint that understands
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:how to, enable that banner and make sure
that they're tracking doesn't fire anyway.
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:So there's a whole set of roles and
new job functions that are emerging,
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:be it from a legal standpoint or from
a privacy engineering standpoint that
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:are becoming like more important that
didn't exist just a few years ago.
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:Justin Norris: What you just
described with the cookie
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:banner, I've seen that too.
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:Do you think that's often just
incompetence or do you think it's malice,
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:like deliberate flouting the user's
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:Stephane Hamel: No, I I hope that
most of the time it's simply because
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:getting very difficult to merge.
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:The profiles of someone who understand
the legal perspective, who understand
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:the marketing perspective, and
also understand how technology
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:works to do all of those things.
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:Having a profile that merged the
three areas is virtually impossible.
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:So that's why it's a teamwork.
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:And maybe now more than ever, because
I feel like we're in a enabling
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:phase, a transformation phase.
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:And we need the skills and the
people who have the right skills
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:to do those kinds of things.
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:So I think, You don't
know what you don't know.
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:So do your best, but it
doesn't mean it's fully
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:compliant.
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:Justin Norris: that clicking
the reject button doesn't
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:magically disable all the scripts
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:their, on their website.
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:I want to pull on this
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:thread of the seatbelt analogy a bit
more, cause I find it actually really
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:interesting, but I want to pull on
And one of the things you could say
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:about seatbelts is that the impact
of not wearing one is very dramatic
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:if something goes wrong and it's very
visible and obviously very horrible.
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:With privacy, and that debate I
mentioned around this particular
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:tool at the beginning is kind of
interesting from that perspective.
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:There were the people that were like, this
is wrong, you're a bad person if you do
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:this, you know, it's that point of view.
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:And then there were people
that were like, I don't care.
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:Like whatever, de anonymize me.
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:What's the big deal.
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:And it's like, okay, yes, I can see that.
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:It's not the same thing as shooting
through your windshield at a hundred
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:kilometers an hour, but there's
this sort of cavalier attitude.
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:And do you think that the lack of kind
of visible impact or people like, Hey,
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:I don't care if Google knows what I'm
doing, or I don't care if my iPhone
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:is listening to me or, you know.
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:think it was one of the founders of
Google that was like, if you're not
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:doing anything bad, like, why would
you, you know, would you want to
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:Stephane Hamel: Oh yeah.
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:I hear
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:Justin Norris: Um, do you fight that
sort of cavalier attitude towards privacy?
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:Stephane Hamel: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Either, you know, things
like I have nothing to hide.
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:They know everything anyway.
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:And they is who exactly we don't know.
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:But they know everything anyway.
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:And also if I'm going to be exposed
to some advertising, I would prefer
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:to get something that is customized
and tailored to my interests.
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:And yeah, okay.
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:I guess, you know, like the seatbelts
people were saying What if I
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:crash, you know, in a lake and I
don't have enough time to get out
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:of the car, I'm going to drown.
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:so all kinds of saying, yeah, but what if.
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:Exceptions, things that in reality have a
very small chance of actually happening.
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:But when you realize that your data
has been leaked a couple of times,
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:and that suddenly you see a credit
card happening on your credit report.
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:You see some credit cards popping up that
you have no clue where it comes from.
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:When you see that you can get in
trouble because your identity is
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:being stolen and stuff like that.
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:Maybe it's like a crash.
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:it creates such a situation of
frustration, lack of control.
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:You feel like you have that, possibility
always over your head you're going
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:to have issues the next time you want
to purchase a car because your credit
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:report is going to be so bad or issues
with the government or issues crossing
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:the border at the customs because
someone else has stolen your identity.
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:So those are pretty serious things.
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:So I think people will care more and
maybe that personally, that's one of
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:the reasons why I went from being an
advocate for analytics, and I'm still an
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:advocate for analytics, of course, but
more privacy aware because my identity
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:was my data was leaked several times.
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:Over the years and just recently I had
an attempt of someone in Europe trying
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:to purchase something using a credit
card that I never ordered, So getting
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:through the trouble of stopping the
transaction, the stress that it creates
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:you don't want to live that just like
you don't want to live a crash in a car.
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:Justin Norris: Well, no, that is serious.
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:I wonder again, just thinking about
consent and tracking, if given the choice.
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:I usually say no, unless I'm in a
hurry and they use a dark pattern.
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:Like you said, it's hard
to find the reject button.
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:I'm like, ah,
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:whatever, I just need to get on.
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:But I do say no.
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:I use an ad blocker.
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:I try to use more privacy aware,
you know, browsers and technology.
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:Which again, I'm To some extent conflicts
with you know, attempting to use those
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:technologies as an advertiser in my work
as a go to market professional But all
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:that is to say if the choice is really
clear and really respected And enough
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:people say no eventually those marketing
tactics lose their efficacy because
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:they're no longer there So do you feel
like those things maybe just die and we
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:have different ways of reaching people
and like what would those ways look like?
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:Stephane Hamel: That's a good point.
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:Two things on that.
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:One is just yesterday I had a
conversation where the concept that
370
:the internet or the web exists because
it's subsidized by advertising, right?
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:And that's why we get so many
things for free because it's
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:supported by advertising.
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:And if there's too many people who are
blocking those ads or saying no, then
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:the whole system is going to fall apart.
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:But at the same time, when
I look at media websites.
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:That are often complaining about
you know, the big, bad, the Google
377
:and Facebook that are stealing their
advertising revenue on media websites.
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:Yet I go there and what I
realize is that if I use an ad
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:blocker, I don't see the ads.
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:But there is no contextual ads either.
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:And contextual ads doesn't require
any, no collection of personal data.
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:It's like, if I'm on a news
website and I'm in the car section.
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:Well, guess what?
384
:Maybe it's the right place to
put ads about, the cars and
385
:all things related to cars.
386
:And even beyond that, because
you know that if people are
387
:interested in cars, they might
be interested in something else.
388
:You don't need to track
everyone to do that.
389
:just makes sense.
390
:And at one point in the early days
of the web, that's how it was.
391
:So there's that misconception that
in order for ads to be effective, it
392
:absolutely needs to collect personal
data to do it because you need to know
393
:what are the interests of your audience.
394
:To some extent, it's true, but
collecting personal data is not the
395
:only way to know about your audience,
And for that matter, if you go into
396
:your Google profile and your Facebook
profile and go deep, because you need
397
:to find it, and look at what Google
and Facebook think are your interests,
398
:and you're going to be in for a shock.
399
:Because they might say that I'm a woman,
that I'm 35 years old, and that I'm
400
:interested in Pokemon and stuff like that.
401
:Well, when it's actually totally wrong.
402
:But I have very little control over that.
403
:So all those interest based advertising,
and there's so much fraud also.
404
:That's the other issue.
405
:That maybe contextual ads are going to be.
406
:Maybe a good alternative,
much more privacy friendly
407
:you don't need as much data.
408
:it can be much simpler.
409
:So why not?
410
:Why not
411
:Justin Norris: That's
412
:very interesting.
413
:It
414
:reminds me of magazines, you know,
I haven't read like a real magazine
415
:in a while, but like back in the day
you get like car and driver and it
416
:had a certain type of ad in it and
you'd get, another type of magazine
417
:and you kind of know who the audience
418
:is and who's interested in that
and you advertise accordingly.
419
:Thinking about, you know, the central
issue here, the central conflict
420
:from my point of view is that at
least on a level of perception.
421
:Companies are seeing a conflict
between Respecting privacy and
422
:their own commercial interests,
and I'm sure you've seen this as a
423
:consultant going in making Recommendations
like the de anonymization tool is
424
:a perfect example Oh, we can see
who exactly is on our website.
425
:We can reach out to them.
426
:It's a great play But is it okay in
terms of privacy, but it could make
427
:us money, that's tough particularly,
being somebody in house and having to
428
:stand up for that and say like let's
make less money potentially for this
429
:abstract principle of privacy which feels
like a victimless crime because nobody
430
:really sees Or is aware of the extent to
which they're being tracked Like how do
431
:you make that case of like you need to
sacrifice your tracking do less profiling
432
:have less effective potentially cold
outreach less personalization I think
433
:the contextual advertising that you
mentioned is one, effective potential
434
:way of thinking about that differently.
435
:How else, do you make that case?
436
:Stephane Hamel: I'm not saying not
to track anything because if you
437
:have a, let's say a consent banner
on your website and the person says,
438
:yes, I want to get your advertising.
439
:interested, And if it's done in a
respectful way, you build additional
440
:trust, from a marketing standpoint,
Do you prefer to have like a thousand
441
:prospects that are, not really
qualified, or do you want to have maybe
442
:a hundred that really said, yes, I want.
443
:I think I would much rather go with
the fewer that are much more qualified
444
:and not waste my daughter and my
time on the 900 others that maybe I
445
:have a slight chance of converting
them into, you know, clients.
446
:there was that obsession about data
as if it would solve everything.
447
:discourse that was let's collect
everything, dump it into a big data
448
:lake, and eventually we're going to
figure out what we want to do with it.
449
:That doesn't work anymore.
450
:Even if the data is It's cheap to
collect, cheap to store, but pretty
451
:expensive to actually leverage.
452
:So we need to change that and maybe,
small data is pretty good too.
453
:You can make very good decisions
on less data, but much better data.
454
:Hopefully that's, one of the
aspects that we don't have a choice.
455
:We're going to see it
anyway, because if we don't.
456
:Embrace concepts.
457
:We're going to be forced anyway.
458
:One clear example of that is if you
look at the you mentioned you are
459
:using an ad blocker and I do too.
460
:If you look at the general population
depending on the source, it might be
461
:30 percent of the general population
that use ad blockers recently, I
462
:saw 50 percent in the States I think
that would be pretty high, but let's
463
:say between 30 and 50 percent of the
General population use an ad blocker.
464
:Maybe sometimes they don't even know.
465
:It's just part of their system or they
use a browser that, blocks third party
466
:cookies already and stuff like that.
467
:When I do conferences and I remember
once I had about a thousand people in
468
:the room and they were largely marketers.
469
:And people in analytics
and stuff like that.
470
:And I asked them if they were using an
ad blocker, it's not super scientific.
471
:I didn't count them, but I can tell you
70 to 80 percent of their hands went up.
472
:So right there to me,
there's something broken.
473
:If the general population use,
let's say 30 percent of them use.
474
:And that blocker, but when you ask
marketers, 70 percent of them use an ad
475
:blocker, what's wrong, does it make sense?
476
:And we are in this industry
and we both use an ad blocker.
477
:So to me it's a really good
example of something is broken.
478
:We need to fix that.
479
:Justin Norris: So knowing what we
know, we choose not to be tracked.
480
:There is a hypocrisy
481
:in, in continuing to try
to do that to other people.
482
:So your point of view is that through
permission based models and through
483
:alternative models, you ultimately could
have, let's say an equal, if not greater
484
:level of efficacy of your marketing.
485
:Or do you think there is a
486
:hard point at which there is that sort of.
487
:devil on one shoulder angel on
the other shoulder where it's like
488
:am I going to make more money or
am I going To do the right thing?
489
:Do you feel that marketers have to
make that choice or can they have
490
:their cake and eat it too ultimately?
491
:Stephane Hamel: Yeah.
492
:one of the argument I hear very
often is if, as a company, if
493
:I don't do it, my competitors
will, so I don't have a choice.
494
:I need to continue to,
you know, play the game.
495
:But as I mentioned, we're in a
transition phase in the long run.
496
:If I have, as a consumer, I have a
choice to do business with a company
497
:that is reputed to have, three
data leaks over the past two years.
498
:And then the alternative is another
company that has a really strong
499
:reputation in terms of privacy and
their, and how they do marketing.
500
:Eventually a consumer is going
to win and they will go with
501
:the one they trust the most.
502
:There is no way around that.
503
:I won't mention the company, but
I saw a company that they had a
504
:data leak twice in the same year.
505
:not small ones.
506
:if I'm just a general consumer,
maybe I'm not super educated, but
507
:I understand what is a data leak.
508
:I understand that, okay, they didn't take
care of the data about their customers.
509
:Am I going to go with them or
maybe the other alternative?
510
:Just like, There are consumers that
really don't care that the company is,
511
:polluting the environment and they don't
have good practice and stuff like that.
512
:And there are consumers who will be
very conscious about selecting the
513
:products that are more environmentally
friendly and stuff like that.
514
:The same thing is going to happen.
515
:It's a value proposition.
516
:Justin Norris: Almost like another
branch of corporate social responsibility
517
:and we do see, environmentalism or
even in the fashion industry Just
518
:noticed, for example, like at H and M
saw someone who had bought something
519
:and they were promoting like that.
520
:It was like no sweatshop labor or
something like these issues companies do
521
:not necessarily because they care deeply.
522
:Maybe they don't, but at least
they see it as profitable to align
523
:themselves with those issues.
524
:Stephane Hamel: In the long
run, we see the difference
525
:between, the fast fashion where.
526
:It's so cheap they are exploiting
people and stuff like that.
527
:It's still sell, but you see in Europe,
they actually enacted a law that goes
528
:against the fast fashion trend to
limit the impact of those things.
529
:So right now for example, in
Canada, we see that PIPEDA is
530
:over 20 years old and, Bill C 27.
531
:Is gradually and slowly coming back to
which would be basically the new version
532
:of the privacy law in in the States.
533
:There is a lot of action going
on in each of the states and
534
:even at the federal level to.
535
:have better privacy regulation.
536
:we're at that stage where there's
a lot of lobbying, of course, also.
537
:So we'll see how it goes, but I think
for sure it cannot go backward where.
538
:It's going to be the open bar and free
for all, where you do anything you
539
:want, you collect everything you want
and you sell it, share it and merge it
540
:with anything else that won't come back.
541
:And I think that's a good thing.
542
:Justin Norris: If we think about the
major players in this industry, like.
543
:used the term in my post the other
day the advertising industrial complex
544
:like sort of half tongue in cheek
But we look at google ad revenue last
545
:year over 237 billion dollars facebook
ad revenue over 100 billion dollars.
546
:These are not small numbers Will
those sorts of you know corporate
547
:and institutional forces do they?
548
:have a role in, in terms of stopping
progress or taking apparent progress
549
:and kind of redirecting it in ways that
ultimately still allow them to do what
550
:they do and that they will benefit from
551
:Stephane Hamel: Yeah.
552
:if we look at Google, for example, it's
funny because they postponed it again the
553
:famous death of third party cookies, or
some people call it the cookie apocalypse.
554
:But it's essentially what the ad network
industry has been relying on to, track
555
:people across different websites.
556
:And if you cannot use third party
cookies, then it's much harder to do that.
557
:So Google say, oh, we care
about your privacy and so on.
558
:Yet they've postponed the limiting
of third party cookies for so long.
559
:When you look at other browsers.
560
:be it, you know, Firefox, be
it Safari I'm using Brave.
561
:They all block third party
cookies anyway, right now.
562
:And Chrome the browser from Google,
is one of the last to do it.
563
:And Google still continues to say,
Oh, we care about your privacy.
564
:We're going to stop trying,
enabling third party cookies.
565
:But they postponed it again
because their alternative.
566
:Either didn't pass the test of privacy
or is already being challenged in
567
:court or, you know, risk of being
challenged in court in Europe because
568
:the alternative to third party cookies
is actually potentially more invasive.
569
:so again, it's a discourse where we
care about your privacy, but we're
570
:going to hold back until we find another
way that will pass the legal test.
571
:And then we're going to block
the third party cookies.
572
:Why don't they do it right away
if they really believe in privacy?
573
:Because most of the other browsers are
already limiting the third party cookies.
574
:So, won't sacrifice, hundreds of millions
or billions of dollars in revenue, by
575
:doing something that would basically,
Just, cut that stream of revenue.
576
:They want to find another alternative
and sadly the other alternative might
577
:involve hashing your email or your phone
number and combining it, fingerprinting.
578
:So being able to identify the unique
characteristics of your device.
579
:While people got used to clearing
their cookies, changing your email
580
:address, your phone or your device.
581
:It's much more difficult.
582
:So that's why I'm saying the alternative
to third party cookies, it might
583
:be actually worse because you won't
change your email all the time.
584
:Justin Norris: the cure worse
than the disease in that case.
585
:So,
586
:so the whole debate in essence then It's
kind of moot because it's like, coming
587
:back to the idea of the letter of the
law and the spirit of the law, it's like,
588
:all right, we'll not do this one thing,
but then we'll use local storage or we'll
589
:use, like you said, some hash of the
device does this whole cookie apocalypse
590
:then just kind of a Tempest in a teapot,
like do marketers even really need to
591
:think about this because ultimately
they're not going to be affected.
592
:Stephane Hamel: Yeah.
593
:I said for, let's look at each of
the perspective for the consumer,
594
:it doesn't change anything.
595
:the web is.
596
:Still going to work.
597
:for a marketer.
598
:It will change the ability to
do a retargeting, for example.
599
:But it's an opportunity to look at,
as I mentioned, your market stack and
600
:see which are more effective and do
you really need all of those tools
601
:that you subscribe at 19 bucks a
month and you forgot about it, right?
602
:So that's for marketers for agencies.
603
:it's pretty sad to say that there are
some agencies that are playing the card
604
:of talking about the cookie apocalypse
as if it was absolutely terrible
605
:and, you know, your business won't
survive if you don't pay us to fix it.
606
:So, I've seen agencies using this
kind of language almost to maybe
607
:spread some you know, FUD, a fear,
uncertainty and doubt to their clients
608
:who really are not expert in that.
609
:And then the last layer are the ad tech
and martech industry itself that are,
610
:you know, some of them are probably
going to probably not survive, but
611
:others are going to try to circumvent.
612
:The third party cookies by using
something else, as I mentioned, like
613
:fingerprinting and stuff like that.
614
:And then there's others that will really
innovate and find better ways of offering
615
:their services and their solution.
616
:And just like we've seen the
seatbelts going from, just one.
617
:Strap and now we have like a strap
on the chest that's innovation.
618
:So hopefully we're going to see
some of the players embracing more
619
:privacy and improving their products.
620
:It's an opportunity to innovate or die.
621
:Justin Norris: Let's talk a little bit
about AI, obviously a huge sea change in
622
:the last year and a half with privacy,
risks and perils that really haven't even
623
:been fully identified, or most people
aren't aware of from, companies maybe
624
:dumping their whole corporate strategy
into chat GPT without really thinking,
625
:but where that goes to maybe the ability
of AI to profile us in different ways.
626
:I don't know.
627
:There's all sorts of things.
628
:How are you thinking about this?
629
:What worries you?
630
:What maybe there are benefits
that I haven't considered?
631
:What's your point of view?
632
:Stephane Hamel: Yeah.
633
:I think there's a distinction to make
between the general publicly available.
634
:Gen AI, like a chat GPT, for example,
where, as you mentioned, you know, don't
635
:go there and put all your strategy.
636
:there's now an option that you can
say, don't use what I'm telling you
637
:to continue to train your model.
638
:But still, there's the availability of
other AI models that you can actually
639
:enable within your environment.
640
:And in a secure way, and it
can be amazingly powerful.
641
:It can be useful.
642
:And again, that's another thing
where there's no way back.
643
:The genie is out of the bottle.
644
:That's for sure.
645
:And it's interesting because.
646
:When chat GPD came out I was teaching
a marketing class to uh, executive MBA,
647
:basically, and I had about 30 managers
in the class and that was in December,
648
:2022 and we started talking about
it and we said, well, you know, let's
649
:give it a try and let's ask marketing
questions and see if we could use
650
:it to not do basic stuff like, okay
you know, improve my text and stuff
651
:like that, but do market research and
generate new ideas and stuff like that.
652
:And those 30 managers, they had never
touched chat GPT before, and they
653
:were like kids in a candy store.
654
:They were so amazed and excited
and seeing the possibility.
655
:So following that in January, 2023.
656
:I said in my class, okay, use it,
go ahead, it won't be one of those
657
:classes or school where, you know,
universities are saying, don't use it
658
:it's cheating, it's plagiarism and stuff
like that, I said, no, go the other way.
659
:Use it just let me know how you use it.
660
:That's the only thing I ask is
just be transparent about it.
661
:And what I see is there are
students who are afraid of that
662
:and they don't know how to use it.
663
:And others that are embracing it
and the distinction is very clear.
664
:I'm afraid there's going to be a
literacy gap between those who know
665
:how to leverage those tools, be it.
666
:So those who know how to use them and
those who don't, and that's going to
667
:make a difference in the workforce,
that's for sure, because the quality
668
:of the result is not the same.
669
:On the other hand, my expectations
from the students have increased.
670
:My exam questions are more
difficult because I know they
671
:can use ChatGPT to answer.
672
:And sometimes, I will ask questions that
I know cannot be answered by Google.
673
:GPT or any other tool.
674
:So my job is a little bit more difficult,
but I use chat GPT to make my job a
675
:little bit easier also at the same time.
676
:So that's true of my role as a
teacher, but it's true also in
677
:consulting it's true for marketers.
678
:It's I'm also giving a short course
on data science and marketing and
679
:I use it to generate Python code.
680
:I do just so many things with it.
681
:So.
682
:It's amazing.
683
:It's I wish I had those
tools when I was younger.
684
:Justin Norris: I know what you mean
though, about it being a skillset,
685
:because I had another interview recently
with someone using using an automation
686
:tool that allowed you to leverage AI
within it for an outbound sales use case.
687
:And Yes, you can use it to do a lot
of things, but the amount of thinking
688
:that had to go into saying like now
go to this website and look at this
689
:and give me this specific question
and you actually have to deconstruct
690
:a thought process and then encode it,
and that is a skill that, person had
691
:developed to a very high
692
:Stephane Hamel: if, but that's the point.
693
:If you don't know what you're
talking about, you won't be
694
:able to leverage those tools.
695
:You will ask very basic questions and
you will get crappy answers and you will
696
:end up saying, Oh, Gen AI doesn't work.
697
:But that's not true.
698
:It works, but you need to first know
which questions you want to ask.
699
:And in order to know that, you
need to understand the discipline.
700
:Or the domain, the expertise
of what you're talking about.
701
:Otherwise it doesn't work.
702
:and we're going to see either people
using it to save time or people
703
:using it to increase the quality.
704
:Hopefully we're going to see more people
using it to improve the quality of
705
:the end result, not just to save time.
706
:Because you can save time,
but get crappy results.
707
:Justin Norris: Do bad stuff faster.
708
:Bad word faster.
709
:maybe the last question, Stefan, I'm
just curious from a personal basis.
710
:You've been transparent and have
written on a few occasions on LinkedIn
711
:about kind of the career impact that
you've seen about being privacy first.
712
:Which in some cases has maybe limited
some of your professional prospects.
713
:Can you talk about that a little bit and
just how would you advise Other marketers
714
:who are out there maybe a bit earlier
in their career and can even less sort
715
:of afford to have those impacts I guess
716
:Stephane Hamel: Yeah, was a combination
of multiple things at the same time.
717
:One was having been a freelance for
so long and on the consulting side,
718
:and I'm over 55 now and having that
crazy idea that maybe with the amount
719
:of expertise and experience that I
have, I could go and offer my expertise
720
:to, you know, Maybe a startup in
privacy tech or something like that.
721
:So I faced multiple issues including
ageism, including the fact that working
722
:remote is a barrier sometimes the fact
that going from the consulting world
723
:actual client side is a challenge
when you've done it for so many years.
724
:And then on top of that there's the
aspect of being, more privacy conscious
725
:what I realized is that for example,
while I was super, super busy with.
726
:Coaching agencies, for example,
and working with clients directly.
727
:What happened is that if you take an
agency, maybe they're a little bit shy
728
:of working with me because once I open
the engine and I look behind what is
729
:going on, I might reveal some stuff
that maybe they would rather not see.
730
:the same is true for companies also.
731
:So maybe I've cornered
myself a little bit.
732
:But at the same time I see
that's starting to change now.
733
:I see that I'm working with
clients where they want to embrace.
734
:A more privacy aware privacy
conscious, not just because of
735
:the legal aspect, but because they
feel that's the right thing to do.
736
:It's a strategy, right?
737
:So this is starting to change.
738
:And even if I have I think a fair amount
of credibility, I hope in the field I
739
:enrolled myself into New York University
certificate in information privacy.
740
:Just to confirm my knowledge
first and also to get that kind
741
:of stamp of credential that
I felt that I needed to get.
742
:And in those courses, I see that people
are coming from all kinds of background.
743
:So I expect there's going to be an
increase in demand in the market
744
:for people who are in the field
of information privacy, which is
745
:different from security standpoint.
746
:You know, security being really
hardware network you know, the
747
:security aspect but with more
knowledge into information privacy.
748
:So I think there's a great
opportunities if you combine.
749
:Marketing, if you combine legal and
you combine the technical aspect, at
750
:least a minimum understanding of it.
751
:I think there is a great future.
752
:Justin Norris: That's amazing.
753
:Well, I think we have to wrap now, but
I just want to say I really appreciate
754
:how outspoken you are on this issue,
your commitment to it, even when
755
:it's not necessarily easy or popular.
756
:I think it's an important
discussion that has to be had.
757
:And just really interesting digging
into this and exploring it with you.
758
:So thank you so much
for being on the show.
759
:Stephane Hamel: Thank you,
Justin, for having me.
