Episode 28

full
Published on:

15th Apr 2024

How to Implement a Demand Creation Strategy - Sam Kuehnle

More and more marketers are embracing demand creation as a strategy, at least in principle.

But making a fundamental GTM change is HARD.

You need to build executive alignment, define new KPIs, identify how to educate your target audience, fine-tune your content engine, and a whole lot more.

As VP of Demand Gen at Refine Labs, Sam Kuehnle has been a big part of the movement evangelizing a shift from lead gen to demand gen and has helped many companies make the transition.

Now he's leading a similar shift as an in-house marketing leader.

We go deep into what it takes to actually implement this strategy in practice, go beyond leads, and deliver real revenue impact.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

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About Today's Guest

Sam Kuehnle is VP of Marketing at Loxo, the Talent Intelligence Platform. From working in-house at a publicly-traded company, to advising seed stage companies trying to figure out how to crack their first $1M in ARR, to everything in-between, Sam is passionate about learning and sharing better ways to do marketing.

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:37] - Sam’s marketing experience before Refine Labs
  • [06:33] - Joining Refine Labs
  • [08:11] - Refine Labs onboarding process
  • [10:21] - A typical engagement + aligning with customer teams
  • [13:36] - How to communicate a demand creation strategy
  • [20:26] - Identifying the right mix of channels / platforms
  • [25:02] - Leading indicators for demand creation
  • [26:45] - Brand awareness vs. demand creation
  • [31:32] - Evolution during Sam’s tenure at Refine
  • [33:33] - The band-wagon effect and how to identify the best practices of tomorrow
  • [35:11] - Joining Loxo
  • [37:10] - Sam’s first priorities after going in house
  • [41:38] - LinkedIn ad strategy
  • [45:09] - Experiments with Connected TV
  • [51:35] - ChatGPT as a marketing channel

Resource Links

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Transcript
Justin Norris:

Welcome to RevOps FM, everyone.

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Today we chat with Sam Keenly,

VP of marketing at Loxo.

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Sam's one of a handful of people

who I think is really rewriting the

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playbook for B2B marketing today.

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I've followed him on LinkedIn for

a few years now, ever since he was

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VP of demand gen at Refine Labs.

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And where Sam was really an important part

of that movement, evangelizing a switch

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from traditional lead gen approaches

in favor of a demand gen or demand

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creation strategy, which is something

I've really come to believe in as well.

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But you know, one thing I've always

been super curious about is what does it

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look like for a company to fully embrace

those strategies from the top down and

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really design their whole business?

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Marketing approach around them.

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You know, it's one thing to evangelize

a method as a consultant where you

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have a certain professional distance

from the company and authority that

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you bring as an external expert, it

can be quite another to lead that

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transformation from within a company

where you need to get fellow executives

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on board, figure out communication.

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Navigate all the challenges and

complexity that come with any

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significant strategic change like that.

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So Sam has been taking that

journey for the past year or so.

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And today we're going to dive

into his career as a marketer, his

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time at refine, and really go deep

into some of the super innovative

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work he is doing today at Refine.

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Sam, welcome to the show.

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Sam Kuehnle: Thank you.

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Appreciate that intro.

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Justin Norris: I don't always start the

beginning with everyone, but I think

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in your case, it kind of relevant.

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I'm curious what was your experience

like as a marketer before refined labs?

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Sam Kuehnle: What was my

experience like before that?

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Worked at a big publicly traded company.

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I was very low on the totem pole.

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So my point of view on marketing was

whatever I was told my point of view

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on marketing was supposed to be.

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it was a great experience overall.

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It was like, I got to learn how big

companies work, how marketing works.

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And this formulated a little

bit of, how you understand and

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learn things as time goes on.

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So I say there's three stages to it.

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Your first stage is you ask

questions and you get answers.

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The second stage is, you're a

little bit more knowledgeable.

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You give answers to the

questions that people are asking.

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Then the third stage is you start

to question those answers that have

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been given time and time again.

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And so where that stemmed from was when I

was at that organization for eight years

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and everything I got to experience at

all, I was like, I don't know anything

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about marketing, but let's go learn it.

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Then I got to start to do marketing

and people would come to me like,

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Hey, what's the best way to, get

some new leads, what can we do?

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And I'd start to, share, like,

here's what I've been told.

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Here's what I'm going to tell you.

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But what started to happen was I

noticed like things were a little bit.

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Different.

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They were changing with

the space and everything.

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And I started to hear more

and more of good idea, Sam.

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Now go sit down at the end of

the table and just be quiet

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while the adults talk here.

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They didn't actually say that

they weren't that rude, but we

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all experienced that as a kid.

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So my first few, Years there,

I was learning, I was doing,

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I was absorbing all in that.

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And then as time went on, I got to

take on more responsibility, AKA

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like, Sam, you need to start thinking,

you need to start making decisions

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versus just being told what to do.

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And this is where I really started

to see a disconnect between marketing

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success and then the lack of

that translating to the company.

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So what I mean by that is we would hit

our lead goals for the quarter, for the

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first half of the year, whatever it was.

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But then we noticed like.

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why are our company

pipeline targets short?

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Because if we built this

perfect funnel, then.

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X number of leads should mean Y amount

of pipeline Z revenue for the company.

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Everyone's good, but

something wasn't working.

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And that's why I started to think

more and more like there has to be

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a better way of what we're doing.

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And it's not, these linear

retargeting funnels, click on that

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one, you're going to be served.

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Add to click on that too.

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You're served at three.

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All of a sudden this person's ready to

be talking to sales and MQL chasing.

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So that was the beginning of the

journey, so to speak before refined

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labs even entered the picture.

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Justin Norris: And it sounds like

you alluded to this to some degree,

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but at that company where you

had a fairly significant tenure.

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Were they just using the kind of

traditional lead gen, you know, what MQL

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hamster wheel quote unquote approach.

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Sam Kuehnle: it was best

practice playbook at the time.

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It was like the serious

decisions, waterfall, all of that.

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the company was following exactly

what the board wanted to do.

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Leadership wanted to do.

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It was no, if I was in that

position, I was in leadership.

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I probably would have been

saying, this is what we should

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be running for the best results.

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Like no one really knew there

was a better way at the time.

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Justin Norris: To recap that

for those that, may not know

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you collect leads, score them.

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Them to some sort of sales.

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team And then chase them down And probably

too much to ask but like what were the

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conversion rates like at that time?

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like lead to opportunity

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Sam Kuehnle: I was so far removed

from that and underpaid to

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even care about those.

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Yeah.

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My job is really just get as

many of these as possible.

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I can tell you our cost per leads.

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I was getting 40 cost per leads.

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click to conversion rate was what I was

emphasizing on because it was all that.

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But how do you define lead at that point?

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And for me, it was get someone

to sign up for a webinar, get

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someone to download an ebook.

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So is it a qualified lead?

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Is it someone who's just got

a little bit of interest?

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That's where it was all different.

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But I mean, I can't imagine what the

conversion rates were from lead to, I

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guess, then it depends on like, what

do you want to convert that to, to just

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opportunity being created, a qualified

opportunity, but I could probably

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tell you it was less than 5 percent

to qualified opportunity from there.

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Justin Norris: just pulling on that

thread because it alludes to something

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interesting in a large enterprise

there can be like significant gaps

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between like what you're doing in

this part of the assembly line process

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and what's happening down there.

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Was that lack of visibility, concerning

to you as a marketer, or was it from a

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leadership point of view, Sam, keep your

head down, like generate the leads and

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let sales kind of work it out down there.

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Sam Kuehnle: I think I was so

young in my career at that point,

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I wasn't even thinking about it as

more, I need to be here at nine.

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I get to leave at five.

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What are we doing this weekend?

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And it wasn't until later that I

really started to enjoy and think

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more methodically about marketing

and its impact to the company.

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Cause we were very much siloed.

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Marketing needs to produce

X amount of pipeline.

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Sales is going to produce

Y amount of pipeline.

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Partner resellers is going to

produce Z amount of pipeline.

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Everyone lived in their own little

bubble and there were so many of us

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contributing to just that marketing part.

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I never went higher to look at

like, what's this doing for the

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business impact or anything?

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It was very much, if I want to keep my

job, I need to hit the specific goal

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that I'm given in my tiny little role.

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Justin Norris: Make so

many widgets and then

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the widgets disappear

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Sam Kuehnle: Is that the best way?

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No, probably not.

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But I always say the only failures

are things you don't learn from.

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Like looking back on that experience,

like I've learned from it and I

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know, what to expect of the team

and how to go forward with it.

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But it was definitely a

good career lesson for me.

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Justin Norris: at some point you made

this jump and joined refined labs.

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I think it was only about like a year

or so old at that point the agency tell

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us about that transition, what made you

think even about heading in that direction

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and how you got on board that train.

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Sam Kuehnle: honestly, it was pure

luck, right time, right place.

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That was when I was starting to think

beyond what's this disconnect between what

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I'm doing and the company missing things.

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I was getting irritated

with those a little bit.

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And I came across one of Chris's early

posts on LinkedIn and I commented on it.

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I had no LinkedIn presence at that time.

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I wasn't active on there.

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But he did this amazing thing.

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He commented back and it

continued that dialogue.

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And to me, I'm just like, Oh my

God, this is a guy who gets like

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hundreds of likes on his posts.

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And he replies to me what world is this?

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And so I was like, that's interesting.

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I started to read some more of his

posts, got a sense of his philosophy.

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And that was the aha moment for me

where I was like, he's putting into

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words, the things that I was kind of

feeling where the disconnect that I was

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experiencing as a lead gen marketer.

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And so I saw they were hiring.

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I put in an application The

rest was history from there.

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Justin Norris: I remember the first

post Chris wrote and he was just

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hammering on marketing attribution.

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I think it was one of those ones where

he said that it's cracking like cheap

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glass And I was like, that was my job

to implement marketing attribution

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technology and, had took a professional.

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Pride and what I was doing But I really

did consider it like a sort of emperor

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has no clothes moment where like somebody

had to call out and say hold on a second,

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not everything is working the way that we

think it is or that everybody says it is.

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And that's obviously part of the appeal.

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And the power of that message

that I can cut through and be

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distinctive and be provocative.

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Was there an onboarding into that

mindset and methodology once you joined?

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Or was it sort of like, here's

smart people, let's go out and

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figure things out in practice.

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Sam Kuehnle: that's a good question.

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A lot of it was vetted and their

interview unique interview process

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that I actually, I loved and have

learned from and taken moving forward.

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But early on the first.

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Couple of stages aren't so much

like your traditional, like, tell

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me about your biggest strength.

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Tell me about your biggest weakness.

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It was him probing to see, do you

understand this new philosophy

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that we're starting to notice?

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And more importantly, like critical

thinking, are you able to think beyond

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and just not just get a data point

and say this, or like thinking about

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attribution is the right question.

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How much should we be assigning

to the specific touch point?

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Or is it.

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Should we be understanding what

collectively helps us grow as a business

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and understand those levers so we can

raise and lower them specifically.

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So it was a lot of looking for those

types of insights and like you, like

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I'd worked to help implement visible at

that organization that was at before.

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So I knew all about that and

everything was set to what's the

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exact ROI on this paid search keyword.

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What's the exact ROI on this

Facebook ad or anything else.

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So, it was really.

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Interesting to go into that

with Chris and a lot of it then

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became He had the podcast, you

know, are you listening to that?

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Do you agree with a lot of what he

says and this isn't him trying to say

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you need to agree with me but It goes

back to the Ahama when I was talking

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about a little bit ago, when he started

to put into words, similar thoughts

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that I'd had, but I couldn't quite

verbalize in a way that connected a lot

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of dots for me to be able to speak to.

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It's like, okay, I totally get it.

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And I can't force people through a funnel.

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A lot of people are in active contracts.

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They're not looking to move.

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You're targeting the wrong

person, but what happens if

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you just get ahead of them?

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So when they are ready to buy.

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you're not doing that with eBooks.

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That's not what they care about.

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Or if it is, give them the eBook.

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You don't need to gate it and

capture their information.

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Zoom info is out there now.

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You can go get their contact for 3 cents

instead of spending 45 for a conversion.

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So a lot of it was just kind of seeing

and reconciling how do we buy today and

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taking it from a common sense approach.

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And I'm just saying, if I was the end

user, what would I want my experience to

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look like if I were being marketed to, to

buy that product or to buy that service?

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Justin Norris: What would a

typical engagement be like for you?

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Was it coming in?

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Very holistically understanding,

the customer, the ICP and like

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building something, or do people

bring you in more or tactically

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to solve some specific problems or

what was their typical engagement

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Sam Kuehnle: it was a mix.

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So the typical engagement

would be usually we'd have.

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Customer come to us or future customer

come to us where there's a couple of

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key champions who recognize like our

current way of marketing isn't going

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to continue to work moving forward.

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We recognize the future.

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We either are a startup and we

don't have the resources to scale

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this appropriately in terms of

like, we can't do the executing.

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We.

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Have the leadership who wants to do

it, but they don't have the knowledge

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and experience of what exactly needs to

happen to write that playbook, to equip

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the team, to build the content engine,

to be able to move forward with it.

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Or we don't know how to sell

our leadership team on it.

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Like we know this is the way, but

sometimes you need that third party

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validation almost to say, it's

like, it's not just me who thinks

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this is a larger movement overall.

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So.

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One of those three scenarios were the most

common ones that we would come up against,

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and that's where we'd then work with them.

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And loved our few champions that

we'd have, but it was completely

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unrealistic to ever expect to have

a prospect come to us where 10 out

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of 10 people on that team were fully

aligned with what we wanted to do.

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We usually had to Sell them for

lack of a better term to understand,

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like, what is this approach?

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Why are we taking it?

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Why are we recommending it?

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And you have to get their buy in with it

because if they are not philosophically

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aligned with it, two months down the line

or even two weeks down the line, they're

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going to say like, where are the leads?

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What's this going on?

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Like, why aren't we hitting those things?

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And you're going to be back to step one.

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And you can't straddle that line.

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Cause you're going to be

splitting your resources.

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You're not going to be able to go all

in on this demand gen strategies, which

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is more or less like you have to jump

in with both feet if you want it to be

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truly effective, because if you keep

doing the lead gen, then you're going to

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have half this stuff going over to sales.

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And they're just like, why

do I keep getting these?

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Crap leads, but then they're not going

to be able to recognize, well, what was

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the ebook download lead versus what's

the person who came to the website and

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said, like, I know what you all do.

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I have this problem.

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I want to talk to sales right now.

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They're not going to know that.

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And they're not going to follow up.

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They're not going to trust

marketing like they always do.

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So that's just one example of the

disconnect that needs to happen.

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So working with them to get full

alignment from the top down, and then

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start to say, here's the playbook

that we're going to run with you.

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We're going to help you

define your audiences.

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We're going to help you understand where

they spend their time, because yeah.

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While this client might be

doing great on LinkedIn.

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So for example, we market to recruiters.

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Recruiters have to use

LinkedIn all the time.

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Like it's a very easy channel for us to

leverage, but I've worked with companies

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that sell to engineers, programmers,

developers, they're not on LinkedIn.

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You've got to go find ways.

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Like, how do we get onto GitHub?

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How do we get onto Reddit and YouTube and

those other places where they spend time?

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So that's where you take this overarching

philosophy of how do we get in front

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of the people we want to educate

them, help them, give them value.

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So when they are ready to

buy, they'll come to us, then

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we go and help them plug in.

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Okay.

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Here's your audience.

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Here's your message.

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Here's the mediums.

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Here's the content types that you want to

use and help them start to piecemeal that.

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And then either from there we'll execute

for them or we'll give them a playbook.

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They learn it nine months later.

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They're like, we've got it.

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We're going to build the team

in house and take it from here.

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So a couple of different choose your own

adventures within how all of that worked.

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But I'd say 95 percent of our

engagements looked like that.

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Justin Norris: and a lot to unpack

there, but let me push on the

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button around communication first.

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And we've had a few

offline chats about this.

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It's something that's very

top of mind for me right now.

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One of the things I've reflected on is

that it's this weird paradox that basic

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marketing sounds sophisticated to non

marketers or even some marketers like,

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Oh, look this keyword got us, I use

it like a million dollars in pipeline

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that sounds like very sophisticated,

very almost finance level hardness in

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terms of the data, people like that.

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They're like, Oh, this person's got

their act together, even though it Is

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a gross oversimplification of reality.

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It doesn't actually Make

sense in the real world.

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Whereas if you're like, oh, we're

gonna pursue this multi channel demand

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creation strategy and engage our target

audience and they're going to come to

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us when they want to buy To like, you

know, imagine delivering that message

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out in all hands It feels fluffy.

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to the people on the engineering team

the people on the finance team listening

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They're like, oh, it's just marketers

Head in the clouds, thinking they're

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waving their magic wands, even though

that's actually the more realistic and

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sophisticated approach to marketing.

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your clients?

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How did you come in and try to

present that in a way that had the

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like credibility and hardness to

it that you needed to get by him?

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Sam Kuehnle: So a lot of it

stems from expectation setting.

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And so I like to do that in two ways.

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And This is something that takes time.

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You're not going to be able to hash all

this out in a 30 minute meeting with them.

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You have to go in a

couple of different steps.

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So the first part of the expectation

setting is getting them to

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understand where you're coming

from with this new direction.

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So the first thing I'd like to do is,

you're in the room you've got your

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couple of champions in there and then

you have, the CEO, the CFO who needs to

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sign off, the sales team members who are

like great, another marketing agency.

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And what I like to do with them

is I just say right off the bat.

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Would you rather you've got two

options, hit your lead goal, miss

348

:

your revenue target, or would

you rather miss your lead goal?

349

:

Hit your revenue target.

350

:

Let them think on that for a second.

351

:

99 percent of business leaders, if

they're in a business leader position,

352

:

they're going to say revenue target.

353

:

Absolutely.

354

:

Like that's what keeps the doors

open at the end of the day.

355

:

That's what keeps us alive.

356

:

So I'm like, okay, good.

357

:

That's what we're focused on.

358

:

And for anyone who, you know, Somehow

finds that 1 percent of people are like

359

:

hit the lead target, like run fast.

360

:

That's a sinking ship.

361

:

You're just going to

want to get out of there.

362

:

And so the purpose of that is one

to get them to align on what is

363

:

our focus with this engagement?

364

:

Is it leads or is it revenue?

365

:

Okay, cool.

366

:

We are aligned.

367

:

We're focused on revenue.

368

:

The next question I would like to

ask is I'd look at the CEO, the CFO,

369

:

someone and just say like, Tell me

about the last purchase that you

370

:

helped to make within the organization.

371

:

How'd you go about it?

372

:

What did the experience look like?

373

:

Tell me about the whole journey.

374

:

I really want you to think

about it and be detailed.

375

:

So I'd go through it, give them a second.

376

:

I'd say, well, you know, I had

a peer who told me about it.

377

:

And then one day I was on LinkedIn.

378

:

I saw a post from their CEO or,

you know, a team member shared

379

:

the CEO's post in our Slack.

380

:

Listen to a podcast with.

381

:

this other company that I

admire recommended this product

382

:

or said that they use it.

383

:

I saw an ad on LinkedIn one day.

384

:

I clicked on a Google ad when I searched

for like best software in X category,

385

:

and the intent here is you're going

to see those last couple examples

386

:

are very much trackable, traditional

marketing efforts, but the first three.

387

:

Those are not trackable by any means.

388

:

And those usually carry a lot more

weight because if you don't know

389

:

that company, you're less likely to

click on that ad in the first place.

390

:

But if you have a peer saying like,

go check them out, you hear someone

391

:

on a podcast and you get to understand

the CEO's point of view of the

392

:

software that you want to buy, and

you're like, yeah, that makes sense.

393

:

I'm aligned to it.

394

:

Those all.

395

:

Influence the fact that you'll probably

be much more likely to engage with some

396

:

of those other ads or items later on.

397

:

And so all this to say is you have

to do all of this in aggregate.

398

:

We're creating an ecosystem here.

399

:

There's no linear path to purchase.

400

:

There's so much untrackable

things that we need to do.

401

:

And this even goes back to a Bain

study that very rarely do I say like

402

:

Bain studies, Forrester reports,

any of those, like there's a lot of.

403

:

Stuff in there that I'm, you know, I

take away the grain of salt, but this

404

:

one was absolutely spot on where it was

saying four out of five companies go

405

:

to market and they already have a short

list of vendors in mind for a software,

406

:

for services, something like that.

407

:

And when they go finally do

make that final purchase.

408

:

90 percent of them pick

from that day one shortlist.

409

:

So that tells me everything

you need to know right there.

410

:

How do you get on that day one shortlist?

411

:

That's your best odds.

412

:

If you're fighting for that 10%, one

out of five, that's what, 5 percent

413

:

of things that you can possibly win.

414

:

That's the smallest slice

of pie that you could get.

415

:

So that's what we're going after

is the long tail of the market.

416

:

it's going to suck for the

first couple of quarters.

417

:

Cause we have to build up this snowball

before it can start to really be big

418

:

and have this momentum behind it.

419

:

But if we don't do it.

420

:

what happens to us if we keep

doing what we've been doing.

421

:

And that's where I like to try

to say like, okay, let's map out,

422

:

keep this strategy right now.

423

:

Let's go do it down 12, 24, 36 months.

424

:

It's going to get more expensive.

425

:

The point of diminishing returns

is going to come into play.

426

:

We're going to keep scrapping

for this part of the market.

427

:

If we go this other route, we're

going to get ahead of the market.

428

:

We'll have more people who are

aware of us who want to buy from us.

429

:

And what happens if our competitors

start going that route too?

430

:

Then that 5 percent slice of pie

just became probably smaller.

431

:

So there's a lot within there.

432

:

And that's even before I start to

get into the next stage of mapping

433

:

expectations, but want to stop there.

434

:

Just, I know that's a huge part of

the process that I can quickly tell

435

:

if they're bought in and understand

that first part, if we're going

436

:

to be successful as time goes on

437

:

Justin Norris: That makes a lot of sense.

438

:

And the example of like bringing

it back to your own experience.

439

:

. I think that's really powerful

because all of us to some degree.

440

:

Imagine like prospects as sort

of these alien beings that work

441

:

differently than we ourselves do.

442

:

And yet when you put yourself

in those shoes, you're like, Oh,

443

:

actually they're just people like me.

444

:

They, they, they.

445

:

They.

446

:

Are influenced by different things

like I am what would you say?

447

:

Your success rate was in terms of

delivering that message and having

448

:

people be like, oh, okay Like sam

knows what he's talking about.

449

:

Like did you just have

people who are like, sorry?

450

:

No, This is garbage.

451

:

I don't believe it

452

:

Sam Kuehnle: it usually landed well.

453

:

90 percent of the time, everyone

was in the room nodding, agreeing.

454

:

The people who didn't right

off the bat were usually those

455

:

who felt threatened by us.

456

:

It was a large demand marketer

who run the old playbook.

457

:

And that was all that they knew.

458

:

And we would always come on and say

like, we don't want to replace you.

459

:

We want to teach you so you can do this.

460

:

And we can, you know, wipe our

hands clean of it in a year or two.

461

:

You know what to do.

462

:

You can run it.

463

:

So that was the immediate ones.

464

:

It was usually later on down the line.

465

:

We saw this with a lot of VCP

backed companies where the team

466

:

in the room understands it.

467

:

But a quarter later, two quarters

later, you've got the board saying you

468

:

signed up for these nominative goals.

469

:

We're running a predictable revenue model

and you're, you guys are short on this.

470

:

They don't understand

the philosophy behind it.

471

:

So if the CEO and CFO couldn't

effectively communicate that to the

472

:

board, that's where we later got into.

473

:

Difficulties where they might

want to, take a few steps back.

474

:

We have to do this.

475

:

We have to please the board.

476

:

We have to bring in some more leads.

477

:

can we split this up?

478

:

Can we do something

different with the budget?

479

:

And that's where it get a

little bit tricky sometimes.

480

:

Justin Norris: i'm curious when we Talk

about that mix and you alluded to it a

481

:

little bit with like some of the different

personas and where they hang out When I

482

:

think of Demand creation like my first

model for it is what you yourselves did

483

:

at refined labs You had your thought

leader Chris as well as yourself and

484

:

other people like Sydney and folks that

I was familiar with on LinkedIn You had

485

:

dimension live your event That you drove

people to mainly from LinkedIn and then

486

:

you chop that up and then those videos

like fed back into LinkedIn That was like

487

:

one way of doing it that worked obviously

really well, but it doesn't apply to every

488

:

single business, every single market.

489

:

How did you go about defining like the

demand creation mix, if we can think about

490

:

it like that way, organic and paid and

what ecosystems are you going to play in?

491

:

And how did you just go from blank page

to figuring out what that should be?

492

:

Sam Kuehnle: So first thing I'd

always say, especially with a lot

493

:

of startups is you can't spend

your way to product market fit.

494

:

Demand creation works.

495

:

Once you know who your audience is.

496

:

You're not just your audience, your

ICP, who are your ideal buyers?

497

:

You have a good message in

place that lands with them.

498

:

Your offer is dialed in, you know, what's

the market willing to pay relative to

499

:

the value that they'll get out from it?

500

:

Man creation works really well.

501

:

Once those are all set.

502

:

So this is usually series B plus,

we were trying to figure out our

503

:

own product market fit early on.

504

:

And we worked with a couple

of seed stage companies.

505

:

I remember.

506

:

Laughing after a call one time when one of

the organization was like, I don't know.

507

:

Sometimes I just, look off around my house

and think of different use cases that

508

:

I could use this software for, and I'm

like, okay, they have no idea what their

509

:

use cases, product market fit is yet.

510

:

And absolutely phenomenal company.

511

:

I loved working with them, but as you can

imagine, our time was limited because.

512

:

They kept adding more spend, but we

weren't seeing bottom of the funnel

513

:

results because it's like, well, we

were trying to spread everything.

514

:

So thin to figure out what

message even works, what audience

515

:

should we be going after?

516

:

What part of the product

is most appealable.

517

:

So that was one part of it.

518

:

And then that then feeds into

the organic and paid side.

519

:

So It's distinguished by who your

audience is, where they spend their time.

520

:

So LinkedIn for us worked really

well because where do a lot

521

:

of marketers spend their time?

522

:

If they had to go and pick between

Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Reddit,

523

:

Quartz, whatever, you know, you name it.

524

:

You've got a lot of them spend

their time on, on LinkedIn.

525

:

And we also happened to hit,

as I said, I touched on like.

526

:

I think we also hit on right place, right

time with where the LinkedIn algorithm was

527

:

when we got started and how people use the

platforms, there weren't a ton of creators

528

:

yet, you could get crazy organic reach.

529

:

As soon as you got a couple of likes

on a post, it would take off with the

530

:

algorithm and it would be shown to tens,

if not hundreds of thousands of people.

531

:

And that was partially due to,

there weren't a lot of people, you

532

:

know, Sharing content on there.

533

:

So LinkedIn wanted to get

anything in front of people that

534

:

they thought might be relevant.

535

:

So we were able to take advantage of that.

536

:

Just, you know, Chris is able to do this.

537

:

What happens if we have five other

voices behind him and extend our

538

:

tentacles even further, so to speak.

539

:

So that worked well with us, with

any organizations that were in the,

540

:

selling MarTech, sales tech, recruiting

tech, people that are, Typically

541

:

spending a lot of time on LinkedIn.

542

:

Then we would have other customers that,

like I said earlier, you know, they

543

:

might be a little bit more dev focused,

engineer focused, we had like call

544

:

centers, we had operations type titles,

and sometimes what we do is we'd have to

545

:

figure out the mix of in the beginning.

546

:

We'd split it up between let's

see what things look like from

547

:

a paid standpoint on LinkedIn.

548

:

Let's see what things

look like on YouTube.

549

:

Let's see what things look like on

Facebook and use that to inform the

550

:

organic side and then say, okay,

we're noticing that YouTube does best.

551

:

A lot of people like to watch,

to understand, to learn how this

552

:

works, how they can apply it.

553

:

So that's what we'd say.

554

:

Let's double down on

the organic stuff here.

555

:

That's shoot videos.

556

:

We don't need to do, you know, nine

by 16, we can do the horizontal

557

:

cause that's native for YouTube.

558

:

Really get into the, how to show

the product, things like that.

559

:

Versus if we were to say that same

audience worked well on Facebook,

560

:

it'd be a completely different

set of recommendations for how to

561

:

create that organic content there.

562

:

So we just paid to help.

563

:

Define what was the organic

strategy was, so to speak.

564

:

But the other part of it was we

usually recommended having an

565

:

ecosystem, so to speak, like don't

put all your eggs in one basket.

566

:

You're going to want to at

least have a couple channels.

567

:

But you should have a

primary channel that is dry.

568

:

It's kind of like that 80 20 rule.

569

:

Like usually one channel is

going to do the most of it, but

570

:

algorithms are going to change people

spend time in different places.

571

:

So we were always mindful of, it's

we've always done something one way

572

:

you shouldn't be married to that.

573

:

You should always be

willing to adapt to change.

574

:

And that was our way of understanding if

there ever were changes or opportunities

575

:

to double down on something that's

working really well elsewhere, those

576

:

would give us the signals to do so.

577

:

Justin Norris: How would you know early

stage if something was working or not?

578

:

what metrics would you look at there?

579

:

Cause you don't have the lead capture

part of it to be able to tell.

580

:

Sam Kuehnle: Yeah.

581

:

So we look at some just

base metrics on YouTube.

582

:

Does this have.

583

:

More likes, more views, more

comments than our other videos.

584

:

Like, and start to understand

why is it the topic?

585

:

Is it how we're presenting it?

586

:

Did we do something different

within the video itself?

587

:

Was it shorter?

588

:

Was it longer?

589

:

Was it a guest speaker?

590

:

getting into some of that to inform it.

591

:

And then if we did start to go down

funnel Chris kind of made us famous

592

:

for the, how'd you hear about us

field that basically just took from

593

:

B2C applications and applied to B2B.

594

:

And so.

595

:

When we're saying earlier, that's

not really trackable very few times.

596

:

Do you have like a direct

response off of a YouTube video?

597

:

Like get a demo, click on it.

598

:

Like, even then it's going

to drive over to your site.

599

:

Usually you're going

to lose the UTMs there.

600

:

And so through that,

how'd you hear about us?

601

:

We start to find out from some

of these previously untrackable

602

:

channels, YouTube podcasts, Slack

communities, others, people are.

603

:

Mentioning that in there.

604

:

And so those are giving us some

insights into, okay, we're starting

605

:

to see YouTube pop up more and more.

606

:

And what I like about it is that's

not like the last touch attribution

607

:

where they watch that and they're

like, I want to buy right now.

608

:

Usually it's the most memorable or

the most helpful touch for them where

609

:

they're like, that was kind of the

aha moment for them, so to speak.

610

:

We were like, oh, I was watching this

YouTube video and then it clicked

611

:

or like, I saw someone say it.

612

:

And that was the final moment where

I was like, all right, there's

613

:

serious contenders on my list.

614

:

I do want to check them out.

615

:

Cause usually what happens after

that is they go and type in locso.

616

:

co and that's going to show up

as direct, or they might come

617

:

through Google as organic.

618

:

When we both know the full story

was something happened before that.

619

:

And again, we're not doing

this to assign credit.

620

:

We just want to know what are the

things that work best to drive

621

:

the people that we want to do

business with over the longterm.

622

:

Justin Norris: There's an approach to

doing what you're describing that kind of

623

:

like a saturation method, like somebody,

I forget his name or I'd credit him, but

624

:

he made an interesting post about monday.

625

:

com's go to market.

626

:

He was focusing on SEO, but it brought

to mind to me, there was like a period

627

:

of time where you couldn't watch a

YouTube video without seeing a Monday ad.

628

:

They were just everywhere.

629

:

is doing it right now for me at least

maybe for others And it's like they

630

:

must be spending millions and millions

of dollars So it's working it's

631

:

getting in front of people but it's

if the premise of demand creation is

632

:

actually we're going to be much more

efficient your CAC is going to go down.

633

:

Taking this sort of just like

let's just pump millions of dollars

634

:

It gets you in front of people, but

it doesn't get you to that efficiency.

635

:

How did you think about blending

efficiency along with getting

636

:

in front of people, having that

awareness, that visibility?

637

:

Sam Kuehnle: I remember

that same Monday streak.

638

:

I've been using Asana for years.

639

:

And so this to me, as I say, the perfect

example of how do you differentiate

640

:

brand awareness from demand creation?

641

:

I know monday.

642

:

com they exist, that they are

in the project management suite.

643

:

I'm very happy with my current

project management tool.

644

:

Did it create demand for them?

645

:

it's hard to know.

646

:

And I think that sometimes what

happens is if you aren't putting some

647

:

type of sense of, urgency, a sense

of like what you're missing out on

648

:

or That's where it's hard to know.

649

:

And there's a big conversation

about that right now going on about

650

:

what's the difference between brand

awareness and demand creation.

651

:

And so that then gets into

me for demand creation.

652

:

It's like you touched on it right

there, the efficiency side of it.

653

:

Because what I look at is the

time constrained version of it.

654

:

Brand awareness is always

on demand creation is okay.

655

:

I'm going to go run.

656

:

A lot of money on YouTube.

657

:

I'm going to hit every marketer

with ads over the course of

658

:

two quarters with monday.

659

:

com over the following couple of quarters.

660

:

Am I seeing an uptick

in pipeline in revenue?

661

:

And this is where it gets hard.

662

:

Sometimes you can.

663

:

understand, like if they, if you do

have the, how'd you hear about us?

664

:

Like you'll hear YouTube more and more,

and you can compare that to previous

665

:

periods and look at the cohorted version

of it, some marketers are going to hate

666

:

me for this, but something like just

basic correlations are going to help you

667

:

understand if something was or wasn't

impacting and granted, this is going

668

:

to only come into play if you don't

have many variables running at a time.

669

:

So, you know, like this

was really the only.

670

:

Possible factor, so to speak.

671

:

And so that's where demand

creation to me is okay.

672

:

If I'm hitting every marketer with a

bunch of money on this channel, only time

673

:

constrain it after that time bucket is up.

674

:

Did I see a meaningful impact to it?

675

:

Cause if so, I've created

more demand for our company in

676

:

the sense that it's created.

677

:

Pipeline hand raisers revenue for us if

it hasn't and you go do a YouTube survey.

678

:

Have you heard of monday.

679

:

com?

680

:

Yeah, 10 out of 10 people

have heard of monday.

681

:

com, but it's not driving business

for you So that to me is how I

682

:

like to differentiate between

brand awareness and demand creation

683

:

Justin Norris: It does it then

come down to the creative?

684

:

Because I know what you mean.

685

:

Like It certainly made me like at

some point in the future probably

686

:

years later when I needed to look at

project management software Like monday.

687

:

com was in my list like I

guess I should check them out.

688

:

They seem to be everywhere So it

achieved that much but it didn't give

689

:

me that compelling feeling of like,

oh, they are the platform to be on

690

:

You know that feeling that you want

691

:

and is it because maybe their creative

was inadequate or is it because it's

692

:

actually the more thought leadership

type stuff that gives you that feeling

693

:

like that it's hard to do that within

the constraints of even a video ad

694

:

let alone just a static image ad.

695

:

What are your thoughts there?

696

:

Sam Kuehnle: Yeah.

697

:

So it depends on the medium,

but the creative itself works.

698

:

It got your attention.

699

:

You remember who they are, what they

did, I think where they missed out and

700

:

why companies that are really succeeding

with the demand generation strategy.

701

:

Now, I always say they need to

have a unique point of view.

702

:

I don't think monday.

703

:

com has a unique point of

view on project management.

704

:

Why what they do is different,

how they help people work through

705

:

tasks better, more efficiently.

706

:

What differentiates them from

Asana, from Trello, from Basecamp?

707

:

I mean, insert it, they're a commodity

and they haven't broken out of that.

708

:

Bucket, so to speak.

709

:

I think the companies that really do

this, like you said, they're sharing

710

:

thought leader content in the sense of

how to make more out of your tool, how

711

:

to get your team more engaged, how to

work through things quicker, faster,

712

:

and that differentiates by you look

at them as not just another tool, but

713

:

like, Oh, they really get this problem.

714

:

And they're going to be invested in

my success and making more use of it.

715

:

Versus just saying, spend

a hundred dollars with us.

716

:

We'll get you as many

licenses as you want.

717

:

And we'll just be someone

else that you can do.

718

:

Like that's how you become.

719

:

Just another option.

720

:

And if I found a company that was

able to solve that better, shared

721

:

that content, I'm going to go to that

company every time because they get it.

722

:

Justin Norris: I think you just nailed

it if they had somehow I don't know what

723

:

the message would be But if they were

like project management is broken the way

724

:

that we're doing it does not work it's

very inefficient and here's this better

725

:

way like the chris walkerfication Of that

space that, would have been compelling.

726

:

Maybe just last for fine labs did

things evolve during your time there

727

:

was I know the basic contours of the

philosophy probably stayed relatively

728

:

the same, but were there like new

learnings that shifted how how you

729

:

applied your methodology or what that was?

730

:

Sam Kuehnle: everything evolved to there.

731

:

We grew massively.

732

:

So like you said, you

know, I joined early days.

733

:

It was something, I don't

know, like employee 11, 12, 13.

734

:

I was somewhere in there.

735

:

So I got to experience when things

broke, when we hit 1 million revenue, 10

736

:

million revenue, 50 employees, a hundred

employees everything was always evolving.

737

:

And that was my first lesson in like

adaptation, the ability to move as

738

:

the market moves, as the company does

anything like that's probably the most

739

:

important thing to long term success.

740

:

And so how that applied to like our

philosophy and playbook specifically

741

:

was Platforms, like how I was talking

about in the beginning, the LinkedIn

742

:

algorithm favored what we want to do.

743

:

Fast forward a couple of years.

744

:

It definitely changed.

745

:

I mean, Chris's videos that used to

get a couple thousand likes per video

746

:

are now getting, High hundreds, but

nowhere near that same initial value.

747

:

So that was a lesson in and of itself.

748

:

And that we then translated

down to playbooks.

749

:

So we had playbooks, how to do

paid social, how to do paid search.

750

:

And these were very top level before

you even got into the channel.

751

:

But what we quickly learned was.

752

:

And I would tell the team, this is if

we aren't changing these playbooks, at

753

:

least quarterly, we are falling behind.

754

:

These platforms are evolving.

755

:

How people use the platforms are evolving.

756

:

The mediums that are doing well,

the mediums that aren't doing well,

757

:

all of that is absolutely changing.

758

:

And our first playbooks that

were in a Google doc and everyone

759

:

on the team had common access.

760

:

And I would say, if I don't have a

comment in there, at least once a

761

:

month, We're not doing something right.

762

:

Cause if we're supposed to be at the

forefront of how demand generation and

763

:

marketing works today, and we aren't able

to share any insights or pick up anything

764

:

ourselves, and we're supposed to be the.

765

:

Some of the top 1 percent

marketers in the world doing this,

766

:

that says something about us.

767

:

So in terms of evolution is like,

it's hard to point to specific things.

768

:

I can talk about, the talking

head video and how those work with

769

:

what Chris did with the podcast.

770

:

Like that was a big evolution of things.

771

:

And now go on LinkedIn today

and everyone's got that.

772

:

And it's almost saturated in

that they don't work because.

773

:

This almost goes to best practices.

774

:

What starts is this new cool

thing becomes best practice.

775

:

Everyone's doing best practice

and best practice is no

776

:

longer actually best practice.

777

:

It's this weird kind of

like inception moment.

778

:

So that was the other side of it is

how do we see and launch the next

779

:

And then by the time that it does

become already beyond to the next

780

:

thing, and that's, what's really hard.

781

:

You never know what that's going to be.

782

:

It becomes.

783

:

But it comes from a lot of

testing and having clients that

784

:

are open to just saying, like,

we're going to figure it out.

785

:

We want to be at the forefront.

786

:

We know that it's not always going

to be what everyone else is doing,

787

:

but we're okay with that because

that's what we want to be doing.

788

:

Justin Norris: I think it's a difference

too, between people who can do the

789

:

hard work to understand root causes.

790

:

And the people that just see a surface

effect and mimic it, you know, like

791

:

the things that work, they work

for a reason at a specific time.

792

:

and if you're just like,

Oh, I'm going to do that.

793

:

just copy this.

794

:

Cause that's like the

video, the, all that stuff.

795

:

Fine.

796

:

You might catch a little bit

of that bandwagon effect, but.

797

:

Then, like you said, yeah I've watched

that dynamic play out so many times,

798

:

you can really see it on LinkedIn.

799

:

It's such a, especially in marketing

circles, it's such a close little

800

:

weird madhouse sometimes, but if

you're just always mimicking, you're

801

:

never going to be able to figure out

what the next, I mean, you may strike

802

:

gold accidentally, but more often than

not, it's like really understanding

803

:

how people respond to things,

804

:

it's hard work.

805

:

Sam Kuehnle: I'm doing it

in a way it stands out.

806

:

Cause like we said earlier with money,

like how are you differentiating with it?

807

:

That's a huge part of, if you want to

be viewed as the thought leader, as

808

:

the forefront person and not just a

commodity in a big saturated category,

809

:

that's another part that you have

to do is be seen as an innovator.

810

:

Justin Norris: So at a certain point,

your journey with refined came to

811

:

an end and you jumped out there and

started to steer the ship at lock.

812

:

So as the marketing leader maybe just

start with like, how did you know that

813

:

it was the right time for you to do that?

814

:

What drove you to take that step?

815

:

Sam Kuehnle: a couple of things.

816

:

One was purely personal.

817

:

We've got a 11 month old.

818

:

And so when we.

819

:

We're getting serious about

like, we want to start a family.

820

:

I know my working style, my work ethic.

821

:

And when you're at an agency and you've

got clients in the West coast and in

822

:

Europe, and you're sitting in the middle.

823

:

My time, let's be honest,

I'm at the mercy of them.

824

:

So I really wanted to be able

to own a little bit of that.

825

:

Cause I wanted to be present with

the family and like, control my

826

:

calendar a little bit more to

be able to be on top of that.

827

:

So that was a big part.

828

:

And then the other part of it was I.

829

:

Started as a director of demand gen.

830

:

I worked with something like, five to 10

clients that I personally own, managed

831

:

everything from start to beginning.

832

:

And then when I became a VP, I oversaw

20 clients at a different time.

833

:

And my director of demand gen once

told me, the difference between.

834

:

Working here and working in

house is, it's like having a kid.

835

:

You can tell them what they're

about to do is skin their knees,

836

:

but sometimes they have to skin

their knee to learn the lesson.

837

:

So there's only so many times

where I could say, I really

838

:

strongly recommend you do this.

839

:

You don't do this.

840

:

And then watch them.

841

:

And I was like, if I could do

this myself, I could kill it.

842

:

And I also want to validate for myself.

843

:

Like if I do go own this all the way,

like I can tell everyone what we're doing,

844

:

what we want to do, why we want to do it.

845

:

And I had the time to implement it.

846

:

Would it work?

847

:

And so that was the other part was like

a personal challenge to myself was.

848

:

Can I walk the walk after talking

to talk for a couple of years here?

849

:

So it was those two things, which I

absolutely would not be in the position

850

:

I am now, had I not had the years of

learning at refined labs to do that.

851

:

So that set me up for where I am today.

852

:

Okay.

853

:

Justin Norris: Yeah, and it was

that curiosity about what it

854

:

would it work to take someone

who's the expert in that and then.

855

:

All right, here you go.

856

:

Now you own this in house.

857

:

Go make it work.

858

:

What was your first, second

and third thing that you did?

859

:

Sam Kuehnle: it was pretty

close to a blank page.

860

:

So one it was just straight up

foundational work operations.

861

:

Processes like we had Salesforce, we

didn't have a marketing operations

862

:

platform We had a customer success

platform and everything I needed to get

863

:

them all talking to one another so I can

understand like, who are our customers?

864

:

What's going on with deals?

865

:

Are they even being tagged properly?

866

:

So I understand like when they were

created, what's our conversion rate?

867

:

Like every company, we had data

hygiene issues when I started.

868

:

And so I then implemented processes

for like, Hey, these opportunities, the

869

:

close dates are, they're 180 days ago.

870

:

Are you still working at no,

that's market is closed, lost.

871

:

It's okay.

872

:

We're not going to ding you for your

loss rate or anything there, but we just

873

:

need to have an accurate sense of what's

our real pipeline and everything else.

874

:

So, process operational stuff early on.

875

:

That was a big part of it.

876

:

And then the probably the next couple

of things, just learning the market.

877

:

My background is not recruiting.

878

:

I have not worked for a recruiting

company or as a recruiter.

879

:

So really just understanding the nuance

of it and like any industry segment you

880

:

get into, you'll quickly learn like what

seems simple in your head when you get

881

:

started is actually a lot more complex.

882

:

They're taking the time to understand

who they are, the different segments,

883

:

what their use cases are, how they

speak, because how an in house recruiter

884

:

speaks is very differently from how

an agency headhunter recruiter speaks.

885

:

And being able to speak their

language is also how you get their

886

:

trust, their credibility when

you do start to go to market.

887

:

And then the third one was mapping

and building the content engine.

888

:

I'm not saying scaling it.

889

:

I'm just saying building, cause

we need to educate the market.

890

:

If we want to be a thought leader,

we had nothing at the time.

891

:

Like I could create ads and that

was about the limit, so to speak.

892

:

But I wanted to get, what we did was

we built a podcast and I told our

893

:

CEO, I'm like, I'm not doing this

podcast to get thousands of listeners.

894

:

Per episode, like that's

not going to happen.

895

:

What this podcast is going to do

is give us the engine for all of

896

:

the content that we'll produce.

897

:

So we need the long form in

order to create the short form.

898

:

Basically, we need that long content

episode so we can have five micro

899

:

videos that we can use on our

website and sales decks and social.

900

:

So it can create a couple of blog

posts that we can use and write up.

901

:

So we can use it to fuel, like we can

have customers on and use those as

902

:

case studies, customer testimonials,

but we need that hub, right?

903

:

In order to create everything else out

of, so it was mapping out all of that.

904

:

So that was my first six months was

focused on all of those before we

905

:

even got into that scale from there.

906

:

Justin Norris: And did you need to

layer on any demand capture channels,

907

:

in the beginning, like your SEM or your

directories or whatever else, just to

908

:

like get that lead flow going, or did

you have some space to just build this?

909

:

Sam Kuehnle: we had a core demand

generation plant program already running.

910

:

We were running on LinkedIn.

911

:

We were running a little bit

on Facebook and we did have

912

:

Google ads running at the time.

913

:

right at the end of the six months,

we started experimenting with

914

:

Google ads and demand capture.

915

:

And I'm going to caveat this with

like, this is far from market

916

:

standard market, best practice.

917

:

Like do your own research, find out

for yourself, but we have a low ACV.

918

:

And so what I was finding after I ran the

math on very specific keywords and not

919

:

just looking at paid search as a whole,

but breaking up branded, unbranded.

920

:

Keyword level, everything else was that

we were upside down on almost all of

921

:

it in terms of our CAC payback period.

922

:

So I always look at if my CAC

payback period is more than 12 months

923

:

that's not talking about like total

headcount, like marketing all up.

924

:

So at the ad level, if I'm not

recouping a year one spend and people.

925

:

Can only sign a one year contract.

926

:

If they like, that's not a good look

for me, especially if we're bootstrapped

927

:

and I need to be a steward of our funds.

928

:

And so I looked at all this and

like, that doesn't make sense.

929

:

And then we've got LinkedIn

over here that is just driving

930

:

80 percent of our handraisers.

931

:

It's killing it for us.

932

:

it's not direct response, so I couldn't

tell you the specific payback period on

933

:

it, but I know that we're far from the

point of diminishing returns in terms of.

934

:

Our audience that we can reach there,

the effectiveness of the ads is like,

935

:

it doesn't make sense to do Google

just because of demand capture, because

936

:

every company like it's best practice.

937

:

Right.

938

:

So I ran the numbers

I did like micro test.

939

:

What if we pause it for a week, for a

month, different like campaign types.

940

:

And in the end we just

said like, let's pull it.

941

:

And so demand conversion we.

942

:

Stopped having that program and focus

solely on demand creation in the sense

943

:

of like our sales team, we were winning

deals really well at crazy rates, so we

944

:

know if we just got them in the funnel

we didn't need to worry about any of

945

:

those like last touch type activities.

946

:

Justin Norris: you took off

the net, you're up on the tight

947

:

rope without a net, so to speak.

948

:

The net being the traditional

demand capture channels that just

949

:

bring a sense of comfort.

950

:

I think to any demand marketer, like,

all right, I can bid on keywords.

951

:

I can bring leads in.

952

:

It's controllable.

953

:

I can dial it up and down for the

LinkedIn work that you were doing.

954

:

You mentioned it's not direct response.

955

:

So I'm assuming it wasn't like

the, like lead gen form type stuff.

956

:

It was more static image

ads, that sort of thing.

957

:

Sam Kuehnle: Yeah.

958

:

Static image ads and then video ads.

959

:

So When I first got here, one of the

first things I noticed in the first

960

:

30 days after listening to calls,

talking to customers was as soon as

961

:

they saw the product, they got it,

that it was just like, Oh, this is

962

:

way better than our current way.

963

:

And that was our biggest problem was

we were never on that day one list.

964

:

People didn't know who locks it was.

965

:

There were so many incumbents and

we were creating this new category,

966

:

talent intelligence platform that

overlaps with a lot of traditional

967

:

categories, applicant tracking systems,

software contact or sourcing software,

968

:

Contact information, finding tools.

969

:

And so we had to help them see

there is a much better way.

970

:

There's a much more efficient way.

971

:

So we did a lot of video ads that

show different, like standard use

972

:

cases of what they do and how easy

that does to execute as the end user.

973

:

So they don't have to get a demo to do it.

974

:

Cause why are they going to sign up

for a demo from yet another product

975

:

when they're happy with what they are?

976

:

Change management is the hardest

thing that we have to overcome.

977

:

And so.

978

:

Practically getting ahead of

all of that by just letting them

979

:

see it and show up in the feed.

980

:

And why LinkedIn works so

well for us is because with.

981

:

The demand generation strategy and

knowing exactly who we want to target.

982

:

We're not going super broad with

who we're getting in front of.

983

:

We're not taking the monday.

984

:

com approach of hitting

every recruiter in the world.

985

:

We have a very defined subset

of who we want to be showing to.

986

:

And for us to steal Chris's

words, it's guaranteed.

987

:

Impressions for the people that

we want to be seeing our content.

988

:

that's, That's.

989

:

What the paid ads are

doing for us at that point.

990

:

So using the videos, using static ads

and using it in terms of like messaging

991

:

of around, like there's a better way

or speaking to some of those pains,

992

:

not just like another application

tracking system with some stock picture

993

:

of a laptop with a software picture on

it, but speaking to things that they

994

:

care about, speaking to pains and.

995

:

Doing it in a different way where

it's not, I always use this joke, but

996

:

it's like, it's not a blue background

with white text talking about ROI, but

997

:

it's creative that catches your eye.

998

:

It's a message that pokes a little bit

fun and a self deprecating way towards

999

:

what recruiters do and everything.

:

00:43:41,927 --> 00:43:44,267

So like one of them was like, stop

recruiting, like it's the:

:

00:43:44,677 --> 00:43:48,647

And then we did like, you remember the now

album, like now that's what I call music.

:

00:43:49,362 --> 00:43:51,582

So we did a, now that's

what I call talent.

:

00:43:51,582 --> 00:43:54,365

And we grabbed like 18 songs from

the:

:

00:43:54,365 --> 00:43:57,265

So they, they'd be kind of fun

related to recruiting or anything.

:

00:43:57,265 --> 00:44:00,575

So like, instead of Roxanne, we did

Loxanne and we created t shirts with it.

:

00:44:00,615 --> 00:44:04,015

We use those as ads as if it was like

the album and we created like fake

:

00:44:04,025 --> 00:44:05,565

infomercials and everything from it.

:

00:44:05,565 --> 00:44:05,865

So.

:

00:44:07,285 --> 00:44:09,755

Again, we're in a very commoditized

place, but taking it from a creative

:

00:44:09,755 --> 00:44:12,525

angle, a different way that stands

out and then gets people interested

:

00:44:12,525 --> 00:44:14,675

in knowing us, that's a little bit

of the brand awareness, but then we

:

00:44:14,675 --> 00:44:18,035

did have other plays in place, other

messages that weren't just those.

:

00:44:18,355 --> 00:44:21,235

So people understood what it was that

we were solving for when we'd say, make

:

00:44:21,415 --> 00:44:25,685

three times more hires than you currently

do save 20 percent of your workday.

:

00:44:26,045 --> 00:44:27,365

Those things, that's

where they can understand.

:

00:44:27,365 --> 00:44:27,585

Okay.

:

00:44:27,585 --> 00:44:29,065

Loxo and this, okay.

:

00:44:29,115 --> 00:44:29,815

That's interesting.

:

00:44:29,815 --> 00:44:30,815

Now you have my attention.

:

00:44:30,835 --> 00:44:32,555

So that was the approach

that we'd take on LinkedIn.

:

00:44:33,025 --> 00:44:35,845

Justin Norris: Two things you do there

that I really love, like bringing

:

00:44:35,845 --> 00:44:39,575

the product moments out and exposing

them rather than hiding them away.

:

00:44:39,615 --> 00:44:40,825

Too few people do that.

:

00:44:41,745 --> 00:44:43,855

But I think like Notion, I

think is really good at this.

:

00:44:43,855 --> 00:44:46,945

Their brand LinkedIn page, like they

have these animated gifs or little

:

00:44:46,945 --> 00:44:50,135

videos or whatever, but it's always

like showing like, here's how you do it.

:

00:44:50,135 --> 00:44:52,185

And I don't really use Notion,

but I have a favorable impression

:

00:44:52,185 --> 00:44:53,135

of them for that reason.

:

00:44:53,185 --> 00:44:55,275

Cause I'm like, Oh, it just feels cool.

:

00:44:55,455 --> 00:44:56,655

I can see how it would work.

:

00:44:56,665 --> 00:44:57,565

It's that better way.

:

00:44:57,565 --> 00:44:57,635

I like it.

:

00:44:58,225 --> 00:45:02,365

And then the creative aspect, which

let's face it, not all B2B marketers.

:

00:45:02,445 --> 00:45:05,375

We don't have the best track

record, let's say, as a discipline

:

00:45:05,375 --> 00:45:09,001

when it comes to creating good

creative that's unique and original.

:

00:45:09,625 --> 00:45:13,695

then this kind of brings us to some of

the work you're doing on connected TV.

:

00:45:13,705 --> 00:45:19,749

And I've seen some of the video ads,

and these were like TV quality ads, both

:

00:45:19,749 --> 00:45:23,652

in terms of production value and just

They feel like the sort of ad I would

:

00:45:23,652 --> 00:45:26,742

expect from a B2C or like a CPG company.

:

00:45:27,252 --> 00:45:28,272

Which is a lot of fun.

:

00:45:28,272 --> 00:45:31,142

So I'm curious, like you're

obviously making a bet here.

:

00:45:31,262 --> 00:45:33,802

Let's walk through the thought

process and how you got that

:

00:45:33,802 --> 00:45:35,132

creative in place and all of that.

:

00:45:35,797 --> 00:45:36,017

Sam Kuehnle: Yeah.

:

00:45:36,017 --> 00:45:42,205

So that was definitely the intention and

this was the one plus side of, Google

:

00:45:42,205 --> 00:45:45,165

ads, not being the best bet for us and

knowing brand awareness, people knowing

:

00:45:45,165 --> 00:45:48,205

about us getting on that first list is

the biggest problem we're struggling with.

:

00:45:48,215 --> 00:45:51,325

So, okay, to your root cause

analysis, what's our biggest problem

:

00:45:51,325 --> 00:45:52,245

that we're trying to solve for?

:

00:45:52,245 --> 00:45:54,045

And what's another way

that we can approach that?

:

00:45:54,135 --> 00:45:56,155

Well, it's not demand

capture, it's demand creation.

:

00:45:56,765 --> 00:45:57,045

Okay.

:

00:45:57,045 --> 00:45:58,755

So let's keep pulling on

that demand creation thread.

:

00:45:58,765 --> 00:46:00,205

We're on LinkedIn, we're

on some other places.

:

00:46:01,315 --> 00:46:01,715

But.

:

00:46:02,450 --> 00:46:06,030

If we know after looking at the data,

we have incredible wind rates when

:

00:46:06,030 --> 00:46:07,460

people get into the sales cycle.

:

00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:11,160

And our biggest challenges are we're

not on that day one, first list.

:

00:46:11,230 --> 00:46:12,710

We're in a very saturated space.

:

00:46:12,740 --> 00:46:14,530

People don't know about us.

:

00:46:14,530 --> 00:46:16,080

How do we stand out simple as that?

:

00:46:16,110 --> 00:46:19,640

And how do we also compete against

incumbents who have been in

:

00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,740

the space for decades, who have

multimillion dollar marketing budgets?

:

00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:24,370

To me, it came down to two things.

:

00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,945

One, let's differentiate, let's do,

What no one else in this space does.

:

00:46:27,995 --> 00:46:30,615

And then let's play on a

little bit of like, call it the

:

00:46:30,615 --> 00:46:32,325

psychological element of it.

:

00:46:32,755 --> 00:46:34,395

You see a company on TV.

:

00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:35,730

They must be big.

:

00:46:35,730 --> 00:46:36,570

How do I not know about them?

:

00:46:36,570 --> 00:46:38,010

Am I behind what's going on?

:

00:46:38,010 --> 00:46:40,670

And so there was that element to it

also, where it's just like, let's

:

00:46:40,670 --> 00:46:42,060

make us appear bigger than we are.

:

00:46:42,060 --> 00:46:45,340

Granted, we will absolutely be that

big and we meet the expectations there,

:

00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,520

but we almost have to like push that

message forward that, Hey, we're not

:

00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,180

just like some random startup out here.

:

00:46:50,180 --> 00:46:51,060

We've got our act together.

:

00:46:51,060 --> 00:46:52,190

We've got a phenomenal product.

:

00:46:52,190 --> 00:46:54,320

Like it is going to take over

the space in a matter of years.

:

00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,870

We're just starting to

escalate that a little bit.

:

00:46:56,900 --> 00:46:59,890

So yeah, the CTV project was a lot of fun.

:

00:46:59,970 --> 00:47:03,683

To work for you to be creative, but

it was, you know, talk about removing

:

00:47:03,683 --> 00:47:04,843

the net from underneath yourself.

:

00:47:04,843 --> 00:47:08,082

It was, a sizable investment that we had

to make sure that we were going to get

:

00:47:08,082 --> 00:47:09,622

some return on or make sure it panned out.

:

00:47:09,622 --> 00:47:09,932

Well,

:

00:47:10,532 --> 00:47:13,562

Justin Norris: And just to talk through

one of your ads that I saw, if you

:

00:47:13,562 --> 00:47:16,322

don't mind, but it was it's a couple.

:

00:47:16,342 --> 00:47:17,472

They're in the forest.

:

00:47:17,882 --> 00:47:21,742

and the guy of the couple is like

looking for Bigfoot, you know,

:

00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:24,190

and in the background, there's

like a Bigfoot running around.

:

00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:27,883

And and the wife says something like,

you don't need to hunt for Bigfoot.

:

00:47:27,883 --> 00:47:28,773

You can use Loxo.

:

00:47:28,823 --> 00:47:32,063

And so just this clever

hook is clever concept.

:

00:47:32,073 --> 00:47:32,833

It's funny.

:

00:47:33,983 --> 00:47:35,603

Again, it's just like

the ads you see on TV.

:

00:47:36,573 --> 00:47:37,403

Did you come up with that?

:

00:47:37,403 --> 00:47:38,143

Someone on your team?

:

00:47:38,143 --> 00:47:39,093

Did you hire an agency?

:

00:47:39,093 --> 00:47:40,083

How did you get to that place?

:

00:47:40,113 --> 00:47:42,573

Because I think that's hard to come

up with those concepts, let alone

:

00:47:42,573 --> 00:47:44,753

sell them internally in a B2B context.

:

00:47:45,265 --> 00:47:45,875

Sam Kuehnle: it was really hard.

:

00:47:45,985 --> 00:47:49,205

So that whole process, yes, we

used an agency video brothers could

:

00:47:49,205 --> 00:47:50,735

not recommend them highly enough.

:

00:47:50,735 --> 00:47:51,645

They absolutely killed it.

:

00:47:52,145 --> 00:47:55,045

Cause to me, I was like, again, I

need to be a steward of our money.

:

00:47:55,045 --> 00:47:57,615

I need to make sure that we are absolutely

partnering with the best out here.

:

00:47:57,615 --> 00:48:00,915

So landed on video brothers

and then the process itself.

:

00:48:00,915 --> 00:48:04,335

So we have a very involved marketing team.

:

00:48:04,365 --> 00:48:07,145

I'm not a creative, but I love

ideating and having fun with that.

:

00:48:07,145 --> 00:48:09,715

We have Lex Winship, who is one of

the most Brilliant Brandon content,

:

00:48:09,725 --> 00:48:11,155

people and copywriters I've ever met.

:

00:48:11,495 --> 00:48:14,785

Brandon Alvarado is our

outsourced head of creative.

:

00:48:14,795 --> 00:48:17,915

And so the three of us really came

together in the sense of like,

:

00:48:18,335 --> 00:48:19,415

we want to be involved with this.

:

00:48:19,425 --> 00:48:22,393

So when we started working with

video brothers, we said, their usual

:

00:48:22,393 --> 00:48:25,421

engagement is, a big company comes in,

pays them, come up with a commercial

:

00:48:25,421 --> 00:48:26,981

idea, write it, script it, shoot it.

:

00:48:26,991 --> 00:48:27,631

You're good to go.

:

00:48:27,631 --> 00:48:28,151

We were like no.

:

00:48:28,191 --> 00:48:31,821

We want to be involved, especially knowing

the nuance of our market and knowing

:

00:48:31,851 --> 00:48:34,091

the We had to hit it on this first one.

:

00:48:34,121 --> 00:48:37,931

They had to know exactly who we were

talking to, how to communicate it, what

:

00:48:37,931 --> 00:48:41,211

would be funny in a way that's well

received, what would be funny in a way

:

00:48:41,211 --> 00:48:43,061

that has people turned off by our brand.

:

00:48:43,061 --> 00:48:45,491

And so we worked closely

with them on all of that.

:

00:48:45,511 --> 00:48:45,961

We did.

:

00:48:46,911 --> 00:48:50,101

A two hour brainstorm session on

just like, let's just go every

:

00:48:50,101 --> 00:48:53,131

possible idea that's out there,

what would land, what wouldn't land.

:

00:48:53,131 --> 00:48:57,691

And I think we came up with 25 plus

different ideas and then we narrowed

:

00:48:57,691 --> 00:49:01,341

it down to five and then we all voted

and landed on this Bigfoot concept.

:

00:49:01,821 --> 00:49:03,671

And so it was a lot of back and forth.

:

00:49:03,671 --> 00:49:06,030

And what I really liked about it

was everyone had different strengths

:

00:49:06,030 --> 00:49:08,332

some people would start pulling an

idea and then someone else could

:

00:49:08,332 --> 00:49:09,912

flesh it out or add an angle.

:

00:49:09,912 --> 00:49:13,796

And so we had this idea of the Bigfoot

thing and then video brothers, they knew.

:

00:49:14,226 --> 00:49:14,466

Okay.

:

00:49:14,466 --> 00:49:16,126

We have to pack a punch in 30 seconds.

:

00:49:16,126 --> 00:49:17,036

How do we use hooks?

:

00:49:17,036 --> 00:49:17,946

How do we add comedy?

:

00:49:17,946 --> 00:49:20,466

And that's where they just absolutely

blew it out of the water with it.

:

00:49:20,466 --> 00:49:23,266

So it's this whole yin and yang

approach of everyone working together.

:

00:49:23,266 --> 00:49:25,046

And honestly, I think that's

why it worked so well.

:

00:49:25,046 --> 00:49:26,926

Cause they were as

invested in it as we were.

:

00:49:26,926 --> 00:49:31,476

And both sides were happy to be

contributing all together with it.

:

00:49:32,074 --> 00:49:33,033

keep

:

00:49:33,283 --> 00:49:36,283

Justin Norris: about connected TV, I

mean, my understanding of it, I haven't

:

00:49:36,293 --> 00:49:40,133

used this channel directly myself, but

there are platforms that allow you to

:

00:49:40,383 --> 00:49:46,673

essentially make ad buys on TV through

streaming networks with kind of a level

:

00:49:46,673 --> 00:49:49,993

of targeting, not exactly as granular

as LinkedIn, but you're getting there.

:

00:49:50,383 --> 00:49:55,535

And using it as almost like a display

channel to get that message out there.

:

00:49:55,865 --> 00:49:57,825

How have you found using that channel?

:

00:49:57,825 --> 00:49:58,445

How are you.

:

00:49:59,110 --> 00:50:00,790

Evaluating results and impact.

:

00:50:02,052 --> 00:50:02,992

Sam Kuehnle: it's still early days.

:

00:50:03,082 --> 00:50:04,442

I'll be lying if I said it was perfect.

:

00:50:04,442 --> 00:50:06,342

I'd be lying if I said I

wasn't frustrated with it.

:

00:50:07,352 --> 00:50:08,682

So there's the good and the bad.

:

00:50:08,892 --> 00:50:12,322

A lot of the platforms say, you

know, you'll show up on ESPN.

:

00:50:12,332 --> 00:50:15,082

You'll show up on food network, you

know, wherever your audience is watching.

:

00:50:15,222 --> 00:50:18,522

But what you find out after you get going

is, yeah, you're showing up on ESPN.

:

00:50:18,522 --> 00:50:21,752

When people pick the ESPN app

on their smart TV, the food

:

00:50:21,752 --> 00:50:23,292

network app on their smart TV.

:

00:50:23,292 --> 00:50:25,752

But the reality is I don't have

the numbers to back this up.

:

00:50:25,752 --> 00:50:27,522

I would probably say three out of

four people are watching through

:

00:50:27,522 --> 00:50:31,332

YouTube TV, through Netflix, through

Hulu, through Amazon prime TV,

:

00:50:31,362 --> 00:50:32,862

one of those streaming services.

:

00:50:33,547 --> 00:50:36,137

And a lot of these providers don't

have hooks into those you have to go

:

00:50:36,137 --> 00:50:38,227

directly through Google on YouTube TV.

:

00:50:38,227 --> 00:50:39,197

You have to go through Hulu.

:

00:50:39,217 --> 00:50:40,787

You have to go through Amazon prime TV.

:

00:50:41,167 --> 00:50:44,217

And so that's where we're at right

now is going and making some of those

:

00:50:44,227 --> 00:50:45,607

direct buys because we're seeing it.

:

00:50:45,677 --> 00:50:46,787

It does work.

:

00:50:46,857 --> 00:50:48,797

But not as many people watch

those apps as you would think.

:

00:50:48,807 --> 00:50:49,507

I don't watch those apps.

:

00:50:49,527 --> 00:50:51,677

I haven't seen our commercials yet

because I don't watch those apps.

:

00:50:51,677 --> 00:50:54,747

I watch YouTube TV if I'm on, or I

go to straight to Hulu or something.

:

00:50:55,367 --> 00:50:58,922

And even in some of those cases, I

pay for Hulu to not have commercials.

:

00:50:58,942 --> 00:51:00,442

I wouldn't see them at that instance.

:

00:51:00,442 --> 00:51:04,732

So it's also understanding, like I

wouldn't buy Netflix, even if I could

:

00:51:04,732 --> 00:51:08,942

afford it, because it's something

like 80 or 90 percent have that non ad

:

00:51:08,942 --> 00:51:11,932

supported package, so it doesn't make

sense to really put money in there,

:

00:51:11,932 --> 00:51:14,942

especially when you're trying to be a

steward of your money, so, Long story

:

00:51:14,952 --> 00:51:18,532

short, it's working, I think, and

work better as we continue to iterate.

:

00:51:18,542 --> 00:51:20,012

But that's the whole point

of an experiment, right?

:

00:51:20,012 --> 00:51:21,952

You experiment, you validate, you iterate.

:

00:51:22,262 --> 00:51:24,062

You validate again, and then you iterate.

:

00:51:24,122 --> 00:51:27,522

And that's where we're at right now

is we are at stage one validation.

:

00:51:27,572 --> 00:51:28,832

We have the first insights.

:

00:51:28,842 --> 00:51:32,302

Now we need to iterate and see like,

if we make these changes, will it work

:

00:51:32,312 --> 00:51:33,922

in the way that we expect it to or not?

:

00:51:34,982 --> 00:51:37,652

Justin Norris: Maybe last question for

you, Sam, before we wrap, but I'm just

:

00:51:37,652 --> 00:51:42,402

curious, you know, we talked about the

bandwagon effect and things becoming

:

00:51:42,402 --> 00:51:44,582

stale and, discovering what's next.

:

00:51:44,972 --> 00:51:45,832

What are you thinking about?

:

00:51:45,832 --> 00:51:48,733

What are you keeping an eye on

for the next 12 to 24 months?

:

00:51:49,113 --> 00:51:54,463

Sam Kuehnle: An interesting one for

me, my background is not SEO but chat

:

00:51:54,463 --> 00:51:57,993

GPT and people going there for answers.

:

00:51:59,028 --> 00:52:02,968

Something's going to change here because

right now, if you go in and you say

:

00:52:02,968 --> 00:52:07,418

like chat GPT, go ask any questions or

whatever, it doesn't provide sources.

:

00:52:07,738 --> 00:52:10,248

But right below where you go

and type in the query, it says

:

00:52:10,258 --> 00:52:11,678

chat GPT can make mistakes.

:

00:52:11,688 --> 00:52:13,418

Consider checking important information.

:

00:52:14,098 --> 00:52:16,538

You ask for that information and

they say, we won't provide sources.

:

00:52:16,618 --> 00:52:20,028

So there's this like give and take

that has to happen somewhere in there.

:

00:52:20,418 --> 00:52:24,838

And so my eye is when that change

does come, it's going to have to come.

:

00:52:24,858 --> 00:52:26,288

Everyone's always

saying, cite your source.

:

00:52:26,308 --> 00:52:27,738

Like you can only have

so much credibility.

:

00:52:28,118 --> 00:52:29,218

That's going to change at some point.

:

00:52:29,218 --> 00:52:30,808

And when it does, how do

you optimize for that?

:

00:52:30,838 --> 00:52:32,218

That's what I'm keeping an eye on.

:

00:52:32,842 --> 00:52:33,722

Justin Norris: That's really interesting.

:

00:52:33,752 --> 00:52:37,642

I've seen some of those responses come in

through like our, how did you hear about

:

00:52:37,642 --> 00:52:43,702

us or I work like people using chat GPT,

people using Gemini to build short lists.

:

00:52:44,142 --> 00:52:45,402

So it's definitely happening.

:

00:52:45,412 --> 00:52:46,603

And it's the wild west.

:

00:52:46,603 --> 00:52:48,063

It's like SEO in:

:

00:52:48,226 --> 00:52:49,296

how do you influence that?

:

00:52:49,296 --> 00:52:49,986

How do you get inside?

:

00:52:49,996 --> 00:52:50,226

All right.

:

00:52:50,226 --> 00:52:52,752

Well, Sam, this was

super, super interesting.

:

00:52:52,812 --> 00:52:53,862

Thank you so much.

:

00:52:54,222 --> 00:52:54,922

Wish you the best.

:

00:52:54,952 --> 00:52:56,349

And hopefully catch up with you again.

:

00:52:56,349 --> 00:52:57,139

See how things are going.

:

00:52:58,519 --> 00:52:58,645

right.

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About the Podcast

RevOps FM
Thinking out loud about RevOps and go-to-market strategy.
This podcast is your weekly masterclass on becoming a better revenue operator. We challenge conventional wisdom and dig into what actually works for building predictable revenue at scale.

For show notes and extra resources, visit https://revops.fm/show

Key topics include: marketing technology, sales technology, marketing operations, sales operations, process optimization, team structure, planning, reporting, forecasting, workflow automation, and GTM strategy.

About your host

Profile picture for Justin Norris

Justin Norris

Justin has over 15 years as a marketing, operations, and GTM professional.

He's worked almost exclusively at startups, including a successful exit. As an operations consultant, he's been a trusted partner to numerous SaaS "unicorns" and Fortune 500s.