Lessons from a World-Class Seller - Brian LaManna

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

Welcome to RevOpsFM everyone.

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So I've never been a seller

officially, but I did lead a pre

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sales consulting team for a while.

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And I got to ride along

on lots of sales cycles.

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I even got some variable comp

for a bit, and that was fun.

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And I worked with a bunch

of different sellers.

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Some were good, some not so much.

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And there were one or two that

were really just next level.

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They had consistently better results.

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They brought in bigger deals.

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They closed accounts.

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No one else could.

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And they just seemed to

get it in a different way.

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They were switched on.

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You didn't need to tell them what to do,

whatever challenge you threw at them.

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They found a way, it seemed to me

like they were just built a little bit

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differently than other people on the team.

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And so I've always been curious about

what makes those great sellers great.

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What makes them who they are?

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And to help answer that question, I am

joined today by a true superstar of the

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sales world, Brian LaManna, a strategic

AE at Gong and founder at ClosedOne.

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Brian is a five times president's club

winner and has nearly doubled or even

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tripled his quota every year at Gong.

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He's also one of the top

sales voices on LinkedIn.

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You may be familiar with him.

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Sharing tons of frameworks,

tips, and best practices.

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So, Brian, you're going to reveal all

the secrets of sales for us today.

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And I'm super excited

to have you on the show.

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Brian LaManna: How long do we have?

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super excited.

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I appreciate you having me, Justin.

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Justin Norris: maybe just a first

question, and some ways it seems obvious,

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but I often find the obvious questions

reveal a lot of interesting truths.

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How do you think about your role

as a seller in the revenue process?

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Marketing, sales, customer success,

what is your job in this pipeline?

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Brian LaManna: Yeah.

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I think first and foremost, I think

of my job like internally as I'm

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the CEO of my own book of business.

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That's the mentality I want to have.

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So if I'm given a certain account

list, say it's 300 potential new logos,

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maybe some customers, even though

I'm, quote unquote, just an account

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executive, Individual contributor,

not a director or VP or C suite.

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I really take the ownership that, Hey,

I'm the CEO of all of those accounts

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in terms of how I run my business, So

that's kind of the internal framing.

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in terms of the external framing.

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think of my role as a seller and

other sellers roles as well as

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really just you are there to give a

customer an exceptional experience

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as they go through their evaluation.

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There's two scenarios.

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One, they either have an active project

or initiative around this, and they're

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probably looking at you as well as some

other competitors and it's your role

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to give them an exceptional experience,

point out why customers would choose

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you, why you might be a unique solution

to help solve their business, or maybe

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it was created via outbound, they've.

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Never considered or even heard

of a solution like yours before.

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And it's even a further step back to

really help them uncover maybe some

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challenges in their business that they've

never thought about in a certain way,

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help educate them on the market and

help educate them on your solution to

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see if it could be a potential fit.

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So, depends on internally versus

externally, but I'll say internally,

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you're the CEO and externally you're

really just an educator and your job is

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to give a world class customer experience.

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Justin Norris: It's a really interesting

way to position it and when you

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say selling to the average person

they think of somebody convincing

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persuading like you're really trying

to sell me on this my observation

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is that often actually doesn't work.

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Well, at least in the world of b2b sales

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Brian LaManna: I definitely don't

think of my role as convincing.

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I think sometimes there's

areas of learning about

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their business and offering.

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Maybe a point of view that they've never

considered before or how a different

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customer is thinking about it that you've

spoken to recently, but I'm not really

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going into the purpose of Hey, how do

I convince them to buy this product?

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It's really true that I'm trying to

understand about their challenges,

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their business, their unique

setup, how they're trying to solve

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for some of those issues today.

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And then educate them around our

solution and give them all the

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best information to make a decision

if it's worth further exploring

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Justin Norris: I find a lot people are

inherently defensive of a sales process.

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I know I often am as like a buyer,

you know, because you come into it

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and there's almost this dance that

you do between buyers and sellers.

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Do you have any ways that you

sort of diffuse that as you start

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a new relationship with a buyer?

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Brian LaManna: Yes.

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I think a lot of it comes back to not

trying to fit the buyer into your rigid

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sales process of, Hey, this is step one.

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This is step two.

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This is step three, which really makes

it all about the seller and your company.

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I try to go into every conversation

thinking of potential next steps.

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That aren't just a value to me as the

seller, but are a value to them and

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their journey of where they're at within

their process and what I've learned.

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So I think the way I try to always

think about it is just a small example.

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But if I had a meeting with you today,

Justin, and we walk through a demo,

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instead of saying, Hey, our next step

in the process is to get your vice

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president looped into the conversation.

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That's important part of our

process to get exact buy in.

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That's all about you, right?

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As the seller, you want to make sure

you're framing things more for them.

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And just a little verbiage really matters.

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Hey, Justin, we're super

excited to get your buy in.

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I'm glad you're really

excited about the tool.

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I know you mentioned earlier, someone

like your VP would be a really pivotal

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stakeholder in making this decision.

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In addition to yours, how

could we earn her perspective?

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What are your thoughts on that in

terms of a way to further this email?

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So just little framing like that

and making it more about them and

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the buyer at the end of the day

versus like Your sales methodology

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or your sales stages and your CRM,

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Justin Norris: and what you just

said makes total sense to me.

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And yet, you know, and we'll get a little

of this when we talk about the ops side

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of things, but there are frameworks,

there are playbooks that people.

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Expect you to follow I've noticed

this about good sellers that I've

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worked with or even like really good

BDRs If there's a step that isn't

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quite right or like a subject line

of an email that isn't quite right.

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They'll go around it They'll fix it.

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They'll deviate a bit from the playbook

do you sort of ask for forgiveness rather

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than permission about those things, if

it's a step it's in your playbook, but it

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doesn't make sense for the buyer Or how do

you navigate those conflicting pressures?

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Brian LaManna: it is tricky.

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It's a good word for it.

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I think with most things, I kind of

an 80 20 rule, I'm like, Hey, the

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framework's good in most situations,

maybe 80 percent or 90%, but there's

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always those exceptions, so I think

a lot of the frameworks and processes

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are still really good to have.

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I think, especially as you continue

on with your own sales career, and

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you start to develop kind of a gut

feel of like where things should

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head or what would make sense in

terms of the logical next best step.

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I think you slowly start to trust

that gut feeling more and more.

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And that gut feeling, what I've learned is

that it's typically pretty buyer centric.

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At the end of the day, you have

that gut feeling that maybe that

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isn't the next best step for them

because of something they shared.

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And I'm really not afraid to

veer away from our process.

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If at the end of the day, I feel

like that's the the next best step

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to advance that evaluation for them.

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Definitely

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Justin Norris: guess if you

have a close one opportunity,

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then everything is forgiven.

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a lot of process deviations can

be forgiven if you close the deal.

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You talked about intuition.

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That's maybe like a good segue into

how somebody becomes great at sales.

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Or really.

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The question I wrote down here

is a good seller born or made?

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Meaning yes, obviously everyone requires

training, but do you feel that some people

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have that special knack, you know, the way

someone's great at like baseball or hockey

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or any other discipline in life, or is

it something that anybody with the right

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sort of effort and training could acquire

that level of proficiency in That's

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Brian LaManna: a strong perspective on

this, a strong seller is made, not born.

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I think you might have natural tendencies

that, you know, you were raised with

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more business acumen or more curiosity.

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But I think when a lot of people think

of someone that was like born for sales.

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To me, I almost think of like a

used car salesman type of person.

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It was like a huge talker and

really convincing and over the top.

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And at least in my experience with like

B2B software sales and like more strategic

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mid market enterprise strat type deals.

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It's really not about how much you

talk and how much you convince.

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It's about how much you're willing to

learn, how much you're willing to prep,

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how much you're willing to listen, how

much you're willing to learn from others

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around you that have done that role

and have, you know, landed successful

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wins and being able to study them and

emulate what's working and what's not.

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I think like any other role, like

in sales, like when you first start

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as a sales development rep, or

you first started as an accounting

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executive, like If there's a hundred

sales development reps and you just

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start, like you're the worst when

you start that's just how it is.

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Like you don't come in there and

immediately crush it from week one

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or at least, 80, 20 rule, right?

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99 percent of people likely don't,

you have to be okay with failing.

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You have to be okay with continuing

to go after it and get a little

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bit better every single day.

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just keep learning around.

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Those are from around you.

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You're not gonna be good at it right away.

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And there's a reason why most revenue

orgs, as a result, give most sellers

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a ramp period so that they can adjust

over 3 months, 4 months, 5 months, and

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they don't have the pressure of quota.

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From the second they, they start,

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Justin Norris: You mentioned about being

okay with failing and it's interesting,

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one of my first jobs was at a company.

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They sold a hiring software, but baked

into that software was a psychometric

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assessment that was essentially

there to make people do a little

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test when they applied for a job.

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And then they looked at the qualities

that they had and compared them to the

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profile of a great performer in that role.

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And so we had these like great

performer, almost like archetypal

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psychological profiles of people

and for sales, one of the key.

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Personality traits that predicted

success was recovery from setbacks

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or the, that ability to fail.

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Do you think there are these sort of

key attributes in your experience that

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people need to have it intrinsically?

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Some people are not okay with being

rejected, you know, having a phone

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slammed on them, that sort of thing.

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Like maybe that's an obvious one.

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Are there things like that or others?

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Brian LaManna: yeah, I think sales

definitely isn't made for everyone.

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I think if you're out there listening and

you're not in sales considering maybe a

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career in it, like the certain attributes

that I think can make a successful seller

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is someone that's resilient, someone

that's curious, someone that's a learner,

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someone that's willing to lean in and

just try to get better each and every day.

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The highs are really high in sales.

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When you have a really great week or a

really great month, you can earn a lot.

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The lows can be really low.

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I think most sellers at some point

within their first few years are like,

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why the heck am I doing what I'm doing?

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This is really hard.

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This is challenging.

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Am I made for this?

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And you get a lot of

imposter syndrome quickly.

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So that's all natural as well.

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So it does come back

to the resiliency and.

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I think there is a competitive nature

to it that typically fits pretty well

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from ex athletes, whether it's, even

high school or middle school just being

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able to compete with others on your

team, but at the same time, you're

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one team, you're all kind of marching

towards the same goal of, success.

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So, it's a challenging question, but

I think a lot of those traits there

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are just, what's going to make a

seller when they do come into an org.

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Justin Norris: And you mentioned

about thinking of yourself as the

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CEO of your own book of business.

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And not everybody takes that mindset.

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Is that something that's kind

of been inherent for you?

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Is that something you learned like

from a mentor, from observation,

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where did that come from?

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Brian LaManna: Yeah, I think I learned

in my first role just seeing some

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of the other folks that were really

successful that were, you know, six

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months ahead of where I was at, or

a year ahead of me in my career.

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One of the books they recommended we read.

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It was called Extreme Ownership, so I

probably had that ingrained in me pretty

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early on, but really the emphasis on that

piece is just take extreme ownership.

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Sorry to use the title, but of

everything that you're doing, if

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you have a bad day, own up to it.

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If you have a great day, know

that it's, due to the success and

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the hard work that you've put in.

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And if you just have that extreme

ownership mentality in sales, I think

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it's really important because there's so

many different competing priorities that

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at any point as an account executive,

as an example, you might sometimes

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get inbound opportunities where they

come to you and request a demo, or you

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have a really good sales development

rep that's sending you meetings.

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And sometimes it's pretty easy to take

your foot off the pedal and be like.

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Oh, I'm just going to wait for that

next good inbound opportunity, or my

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SDR needs to send me more good ones.

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That's never the mentality that I've

seen the most successful sellers have.

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They really think about everything

in terms of their targets and

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their goals, and they create a path

that's not dependent on hitting

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the inbound lottery or relying on

someone else to also be successful.

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And if you really have that mentality

through everything you do, through active

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opportunities, through creating new ones.

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You'll really set yourself

up for a lot more success

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Justin Norris: It was kind of really

like a problem solving mentality.

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But applied to you're like,

how am I going to get to quota?

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I need to have multiple paths.

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I need to focus on multiple

things, that sort of thing.

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it's going to sound like I'm stereotyping

or painting with a very broad brush

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and that's not what I mean to do.

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I'm just sort of generalizing

some broad experience.

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Cause I, I worked with a lot of different

sellers, like also as a partner to some

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pretty big enterprise software companies.

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And I found that there were good, or at

least very successful sellers that were.

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I don't know how else to say

this, like mildly sociopathic,

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the sense that they were good at

asking you for what they needed.

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And once they had what they needed,

it's like you were gone, like

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they could kind of turn it on.

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But then you were discarded as

someone who was there to help them.

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But the really great

sellers were not like that.

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They were highly likable and they're

very good at making you feel valued.

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cultivating a real relationship.

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How important is that ability to

forge a connection with people.

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Brian LaManna: I, guess to some

degree I can, and I've seen it

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as well, I can understand the

extent of, Hey, I sold the deal.

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I'm done with it.

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It's in someone else's

hands type of mentality.

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And they do break that up, right?

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There is a reason it gets assigned to

somebody on the customer team who owns

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that relationship and specializes in that.

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But I think if you have that really

genuine, like curiosity through the

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entire cycle, and you're trying to take

that approach of solving real business

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problems that have a material impact on

their bottom and their top line, like

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I'm never done the day I sell a deal.

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Like I'm the type of AE that's

messaging them on text a week later

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saying, how was implementation?

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How was the first call?

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Hey, do you want me to join the next call?

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A month later asking like how

they're starting to map back

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to some of the outcomes that we

talked through the sales process.

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And I think that's really important.

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I can give one example as well.

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When I first joined Gong, one of the

first new business deals I worked

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was with a company called Teach Town.

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And I really clicked with a

lot of the different business

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leaders that I was working with.

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They had a lot of different maybe not

challenges, but like opportunities

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that they were driving towards in

terms of some of their growth that,

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they forecast in their business.

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And there were a lot of really

unique ways that Gong could help.

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When I did eventually sign them

up as a customer and they chose to

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partner with us continued working

with them for the next six months.

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I actually spoke at their internal

sales kickoff a year later

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and flew out to Washington DC.

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Strictly for fun not being paid, just

had a chance to talk through some

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of the different outcomes, some of

the different insights that we were

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able to work through and achieve.

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And then dating into this year,

I've actually spoken with them a

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couple of times this week already

about some different things.

301

: 00:15:44

And you just start to forge and

build some of those relationships.

302

: 00:15:47

And it's been really helpful for me

in other ways to, I've seen other.

303

: 00:15:51

Customers that are connected to folks

at that company and they're able to give

304

: 00:15:55

things like references and testimonials

to, all the success that they've had.

305

: 00:15:59

So it does benefit you

as well in the long term.

306

: 00:16:02

That's not why you do it

or why you should do it.

307

: 00:16:04

But good to have that approach

and not just think of something as

308

: 00:16:07

linear as you either won the deal or

you lost the deal and you're done.

309

: 00:16:13

Justin Norris: to this question,

but you know, when I look

310

: 00:16:15

at your LinkedIn profile.

311

: 00:16:17

posted some amazing numbers like, don't

know, 276 percent of quota really

312

: 00:16:23

just hitting it out of the park and, you

seem to have had that pattern of success

313

: 00:16:27

over a period of time and presumably

not everybody on your team are reaching

314

: 00:16:32

those numbers are generally speaking,

you know, there's not that distribution.

315

: 00:16:35

what are your secrets basically if

a new rep come to you is like Brian

316

: 00:16:38

I just want to learn to be just

like you give me your mindsets.

317

: 00:16:42

Give me your routines your strategies.

318

: 00:16:43

What advice would you give them?

319

: 00:16:46

Brian LaManna: Preface with

there's no one silver bullet.

320

: 00:16:48

There's nothing that's going to

replace the hard work that you

321

: 00:16:51

need to put into your deals,

your pipeline, your prospecting.

322

: 00:16:56

I very rarely met a top seller that is

not working at least 40 hours a week.

323

: 00:17:01

in essence, the extra time you put in,

you are getting rewarded for it and paid

324

: 00:17:05

for it just in the form of commissions

and recognition and other pieces as well.

325

: 00:17:10

But at the same time, like I'm

not a seller, I'm not putting

326

: 00:17:12

in 50 plus hours a week.

327

: 00:17:14

I'm really efficient in

terms of everything I do.

328

: 00:17:17

I think for me, the overarching

theme is actually time management.

329

: 00:17:21

I'm really meticulous with how I spend.

330

: 00:17:24

my eight to five per se on a day

to day basis, Justin when you asked

331

: 00:17:29

me about different podcast times,

I told you, Hey, I'm down to do it,

332

: 00:17:32

but it's gotta be outside of hours.

333

: 00:17:34

I'm really meticulous within hours.

334

: 00:17:36

The first thing I always try to prioritize

advancing pipeline in any way, and

335

: 00:17:42

the second piece is creating pipeline.

336

: 00:17:44

And if what's on my calendar doesn't

align to one of those two things,

337

: 00:17:48

I'm pretty allergic to all and any

meetings that don't need to be meetings.

338

: 00:17:52

Otherwise I do think it's important

to have one on ones and skill

339

: 00:17:56

development and things like that.

340

: 00:17:57

But I want to make sure as much of

my time as possible is spent in those

341

: 00:18:02

two buckets of creating pipeline and

advancing pipeline, because that's

342

: 00:18:06

really what's going to help you not just

hit your number, but over exceed it.

343

: 00:18:10

There's a lot of things within those

two buckets that, I do that might

344

: 00:18:14

be a little bit more unique or a

little bit more advanced that I

345

: 00:18:17

picked up on or developed over time.

346

: 00:18:20

I do believe overall, what I refer

to as like differentiated selling,

347

: 00:18:24

it's just little silver bullets or

little nuggets that are going to.

348

: 00:18:29

Set you apart as a seller versus your

competition and, your competition

349

: 00:18:35

sellers that you're in essence

up against in different deals.

350

: 00:18:38

And I do believe there's a series of

practices from everything from how

351

: 00:18:41

you prepare to how you follow up to

creating things like mutual success

352

: 00:18:46

plans and how you build business cases.

353

: 00:18:48

That at the end of the day,

we'll just give your buyer an

354

: 00:18:51

exceptional, unbelievable experience.

355

: 00:18:53

And at the end of the day, you

can be the differentiator in your

356

: 00:18:57

deals to have more turn closed one.

357

: 00:18:59

So I'm definitely a big believer in

that, but I really start with if I was

358

: 00:19:03

talking to a brand new seller, it starts

with time management, using it really

359

: 00:19:07

effectively and maximizing your own

production within those first two buckets.

360

: 00:19:12

Justin Norris: such a common like

almost universal answer when I ask this

361

: 00:19:15

question to high performing people It's

like the number one thing let's dive

362

: 00:19:20

a little bit deeper, you sit down,

you went into the office today, you

363

: 00:19:22

were mentioning, sit down at the desk,

open the laptop, advancing pipeline.

364

: 00:19:25

Presumably you're looking at

a list of opportunities that

365

: 00:19:28

are already, at various stages.

366

: 00:19:31

Look at the first one what's the mindset?

367

: 00:19:32

What do I need to do?

368

: 00:19:33

Do I need to reach out?

369

: 00:19:34

Do, how do you think about that?

370

: 00:19:37

Brian LaManna: Yeah, I do

the same thing every day.

371

: 00:19:39

And the reason why I have a

framework built around, I've

372

: 00:19:42

done the same thing every day for

the last five years religiously.

373

: 00:19:45

I've not missed one day

weekdays, of course.

374

: 00:19:47

The reason why I have

this framework is because.

375

: 00:19:51

I want to make sure that I'm prioritizing

those two buckets that I just shared

376

: 00:19:55

of advancing pipeline and creating

pipeline because those are the two

377

: 00:19:59

biggest pieces that will get me to

my numbers, my targets, president's

378

: 00:20:03

club, my earnings goals, et cetera.

379

: 00:20:05

So the first thing that I do when I

open up my laptop, it's not check Slack.

380

: 00:20:09

It's not check my email.

381

: 00:20:11

It's not go on LinkedIn.

382

: 00:20:12

The first thing I do is I go to gong,

I pull up my deal board and I go

383

: 00:20:17

through my opportunities one by one.

384

: 00:20:19

If you don't have gong, you can use

Salesforce or HubSpot, your opportunity

385

: 00:20:23

list, whatever that looks like.

386

: 00:20:24

I go through one by one.

387

: 00:20:26

And if I have an account with

Justin Norris and an active

388

: 00:20:30

opportunity, I simply ask myself,

Hey, I've got this deal with Justin.

389

: 00:20:35

My next meeting is Friday.

390

: 00:20:37

Is there anything I can do today,

Wednesday, March 13th to advance

391

: 00:20:41

this deal in any way, shape or form?

392

: 00:20:44

Could I shoot him a note

from our last conversation?

393

: 00:20:47

Could I add him on LinkedIn

to get him to think about me

394

: 00:20:51

and my company for a second?

395

: 00:20:53

I'm trying to add value and sell

between meetings in any way.

396

: 00:20:57

To get him to think about Gong

and Brian Lamanna for a minute

397

: 00:21:00

or two in a favorable light.

398

: 00:21:02

So I go through my active opportunities,

build out that to do list of any value

399

: 00:21:06

touches that I want to get out to that

day to continue driving the deal forward.

400

: 00:21:11

After I build that to do list,

I carve out typically around 45

401

: 00:21:15

minutes and I mow that list down.

402

: 00:21:17

Might be send six emails.

403

: 00:21:20

It might be prep for

two meetings that day.

404

: 00:21:22

It might be update CRM for X, Y,

and Z, and I get all of those tasks

405

: 00:21:27

done for that advancing pipeline.

406

: 00:21:29

And ideally then it's

it's 845 in the morning.

407

: 00:21:32

And then I have the rest of the

day with just my meetings and

408

: 00:21:36

then whitespace in my calendar.

409

: 00:21:39

Any whitespace I have left in my calendar,

I treat that as prospecting time.

410

: 00:21:43

So if I have 10am to 11am open, I

then block that off same day and

411

: 00:21:48

I say, Hey, I have an hour free.

412

: 00:21:50

What should I do from that second bucket

prospecting to get after it today?

413

: 00:21:54

And I try to get really specific.

414

: 00:21:56

So instead of just saying prospecting,

I say, Make 17 dials or get

415

: 00:22:01

three new accounts in sequence

or multi thread X, Y, and Z.

416

: 00:22:06

I found it's easier to follow through and

just track that discipline when you're

417

: 00:22:11

Setting more specific targets for yourself

rather than broad and then the last step

418

: 00:22:16

is just the discipline of hey Whatever

you set out to do that day Execute on it

419

: 00:22:20

when something else pops up at 10 30 a.

420

: 00:22:23

m.

421

: 00:22:23

And you get that slack message Too bad.

422

: 00:22:25

Unless it's absolutely urgent.

423

: 00:22:27

I said, I was going to make those 17 calls

and I'm going to go ahead and execute it.

424

: 00:22:31

So really trying to eliminate

like context switching within

425

: 00:22:35

my days, do things in chunk.

426

: 00:22:37

I'm not on Slack all day.

427

: 00:22:38

I typically just check it once or twice.

428

: 00:22:41

And I'm trying to really just

deeply and effectively make

429

: 00:22:44

every minute of the day count.

430

: 00:22:47

Justin Norris: in those touches

where you're trying to add value.

431

: 00:22:50

and you can be honest about this.

432

: 00:22:51

I'm just curious.

433

: 00:22:52

What's the Relationship with

your marketing team do you find

434

: 00:22:56

that those assets that marketing

creates are valuable for you?

435

: 00:22:59

Can you leverage those things?

436

: 00:23:00

Is there a mutual support there

437

: 00:23:03

Brian LaManna: Yes.

438

: 00:23:04

Our marketing team is amazing and the

assets they create are tremendous.

439

: 00:23:08

What I'll say is for listeners

out there that might not have

440

: 00:23:12

the, marketing team of a gong.

441

: 00:23:14

I don't think you need that to be

successful or sell between the meetings.

442

: 00:23:19

The most common way I'm going

to sell between the meetings and

443

: 00:23:22

add value is just, and I would re

listen if our last call was Monday.

444

: 00:23:27

I'm going to pull up our call.

445

: 00:23:29

I'm going to find some soundbite,

some question you asked, and maybe

446

: 00:23:32

you said Oh, what is your Salesforce

integration look like, or do you have

447

: 00:23:36

any testimonials on your product?

448

: 00:23:38

I'm going to find some nugget that

you shared and tie that back to

449

: 00:23:42

some resource that I can send you.

450

: 00:23:45

And the note I'm going to

send you is really short.

451

: 00:23:47

It's just my, Hey, Justin, just relisten

to our call from Monday and heard you ask

452

: 00:23:52

about our integration with Salesforce.

453

: 00:23:54

Here's a two minute video.

454

: 00:23:56

Can't wait to speak Friday.

455

: 00:23:57

It's short.

456

: 00:23:58

It's concise.

457

: 00:23:59

It's adding value.

458

: 00:24:00

You're not giving them homework.

459

: 00:24:01

You're not badgering them with questions.

460

: 00:24:04

You're just simply trying to

add value and advance the deal.

461

: 00:24:07

Based on something they already told

you that they were curious about 80 to

462

: 00:24:11

90 percent of the time that's going to

be one of my touches just leveraging

463

: 00:24:15

the previous conversation we had.

464

: 00:24:17

Justin Norris: You're very good at, you

know, eating your own dog food in terms of

465

: 00:24:21

using your own tool to help you succeed.

466

: 00:24:24

How much of a boost do

you feel that gives you?

467

: 00:24:26

How much harder would it be if you weren't

selling a tool like gong that you can

468

: 00:24:31

have this virtuous circle where it's

really being used in the process itself?

469

: 00:24:34

Brian LaManna: Yeah, I genuinely,

I vehemently will not work for a

470

: 00:24:38

company that doesn't have Gong because

it helps me that much as a seller.

471

: 00:24:43

That being said, if I was a seller at

another org, I don't think you need

472

: 00:24:46

going to do anything I just shared.

473

: 00:24:48

Like you can pull up an opportunity list

and Salesforce review them one by one.

474

: 00:24:53

You can record your call

on zoom or Google meet it.

475

: 00:24:57

You know, transcription is not helping

me that much to find a nugget like that.

476

: 00:25:01

So I don't think it's absolutely

critical in those pieces.

477

: 00:25:03

I think where probably my Kool Aid

drinking comes in is it just makes

478

: 00:25:07

it really easy in my day when I.

479

: 00:25:09

Review my deals through one system.

480

: 00:25:11

I prospect through one system.

481

: 00:25:12

I get coached through one system.

482

: 00:25:14

I'm really just using two solutions.

483

: 00:25:16

I use Salesforce and I use Gong

and it just cuts down like my tech

484

: 00:25:21

sprawl and my fatigue going between a

million different systems and having

485

: 00:25:25

to learn like new tools constantly.

486

: 00:25:27

Justin Norris: So I want to turn to

some terrain that may be sensitive.

487

: 00:25:31

And I'm really curious.

488

: 00:25:33

I participated as I mentioned

earlier, as a, not quite a seller,

489

: 00:25:36

but at least a copilot to a seller.

490

: 00:25:38

And then I also interacted with

salespeople a lot as an ops person,

491

: 00:25:42

as a revenue operations professional.

492

: 00:25:44

And that relationship can be difficult,

not necessarily referring to my own

493

: 00:25:49

team, just, out in the marketplace.

494

: 00:25:51

I think ops people view salespeople

as these difficult to control,

495

: 00:25:55

cats that you need to herd,

you're trying to get them to.

496

: 00:25:57

Follow a process you're trying to get

them to update the CRM to update their

497

: 00:26:01

pipeline can be frustrating and sales

people I'm guessing probably one video

498

: 00:26:06

actually from corporate, bro Where he

had a sales ops persona It was like you

499

: 00:26:11

didn't update, you know The value of

your opportunity to the tenth decimal

500

: 00:26:14

place like these kind of pedantic Process

obsessed people that are just focused on

501

: 00:26:18

the wrong things that you're just trying

to close business So anyways, that's

502

: 00:26:21

the impression I pulled from that video.

503

: 00:26:23

So I'm just curious to unpack

this relationship a little bit.

504

: 00:26:26

How does sellers view sales ops

and then maybe more productively?

505

: 00:26:29

How can sales ops actually,

work with sales more effectively

506

: 00:26:32

from a seller's point of view?

507

: 00:26:34

Brian LaManna: really great

question and a great topic.

508

: 00:26:36

So what I'll share is

not specific to Gong.

509

: 00:26:39

We love our revenue operations team.

510

: 00:26:41

They don't really make us fill out

pretty much anything in Salesforce.

511

: 00:26:44

Cause we rely so much on the

conversational data to drive

512

: 00:26:47

our forecasts and driver deals.

513

: 00:26:50

So that's probably a big piece of why

I like working at Gong too is I'm not

514

: 00:26:52

filling out much of anything in CRM.

515

: 00:26:55

I think it is a delicate balance, right?

516

: 00:26:57

Because if you just look at like stats,

that Forrester puts out 77 percent

517

: 00:27:01

of sellers time in 2023 was spent on

non revenue generating activities.

518

: 00:27:07

That's 77%.

519

: 00:27:09

So only 23 percent was spent doing

what sellers do best, which is

520

: 00:27:13

selling or prospecting or being in

customer meetings or things like that.

521

: 00:27:16

That's super, super alarming.

522

: 00:27:19

So I think on one hand, it is the role

of revenue operations to remove some of

523

: 00:27:24

those obstacles and barriers from sellers.

524

: 00:27:27

From having to do admin related tasks

that candidly add absolutely zero

525

: 00:27:31

value to anything that they're doing.

526

: 00:27:34

And their primary job at the end

of the day is to drive revenue.

527

: 00:27:37

On the other hand of it, it's the job

of sales to understand there's certain

528

: 00:27:41

foundational pieces needed to run plan

and forecast an effective business

529

: 00:27:47

to continue to drive it forward.

530

: 00:27:49

And if you're not creating an opportunity

in the first place, or it's in the

531

: 00:27:52

complete wrong stage, or it's a

million dollar opportunity, but you're

532

: 00:27:57

purposely putting it at 50k because

you don't want the visibility to do it.

533

: 00:28:01

Like you're part of the problem too.

534

: 00:28:03

And you need to have that

extreme ownership of doing

535

: 00:28:06

at least the bare minimum.

536

: 00:28:07

That they're asking.

537

: 00:28:09

I think a lot of it just comes down

to like understanding of each other

538

: 00:28:13

and each other's roles and each

other's goals, sales at the end

539

: 00:28:16

of the day, what we're comped on

isn't how well we fill out a CRM.

540

: 00:28:20

That's not how we're promoted either.

541

: 00:28:22

That's not how we're paid.

542

: 00:28:24

So, it is a little bit challenging

sometimes, and I think it's

543

: 00:28:27

important to have that lens.

544

: 00:28:28

And, what revenue operations is there to

do is to make really efficient processes

545

: 00:28:34

to bring better data, better reporting,

to make sure that the business is

546

: 00:28:38

humming on all cylinders and it's not

possible without that mutual partnership.

547

: 00:28:41

So, maybe not a perfect answer there,

but there's definitely a lot of overlap

548

: 00:28:46

as you think about that Venn diagram.

549

: 00:28:48

And some mutual goals will both

benefit each other as well.

550

: 00:28:53

Justin Norris: think about a little bit

is, obviously everyone who's doing their

551

: 00:28:56

job properly has the same objective in

the sense that they're there to increase

552

: 00:28:59

revenue, they're there to improve the

performance of the business, the way

553

: 00:29:03

they go about that is obviously, quite

different and sellers are very focused

554

: 00:29:09

on doing it in a particular local

context of like their book of business,

555

: 00:29:12

the deals that they're working on.

556

: 00:29:14

Rev Ops, ideally is taking a bit of a

broader view and we need opportunities

557

: 00:29:19

to be updated because we need

predictability in the forecast and we

558

: 00:29:22

need to be able to make decisions and

we need to be able to manage pipeline.

559

: 00:29:25

We need X, Y, Z to be updated because,

you know, sometimes there's feedback loops

560

: 00:29:29

to other teams like marketing, which is

ultimately going to bring in the pipeline.

561

: 00:29:32

it's a longer term view.

562

: 00:29:34

It's planting seeds and, in

the spring that are going to

563

: 00:29:37

be harvested later in the year.

564

: 00:29:39

And.

565

: 00:29:40

I guess what I'm wondering is if I

need to get a seller to do something

566

: 00:29:45

that isn't necessarily going to

benefit them today in that way, but

567

: 00:29:50

that is important for the business.

568

: 00:29:51

Like it's, I'm not just doing

something pedantic that's silly.

569

: 00:29:54

What's the best way from your

point of view to communicate

570

: 00:29:56

that and get sellers on board?

571

: 00:29:57

Cause I think a lot of RevOps

professionals struggle with that.

572

: 00:30:00

We have our strategies but it's

probably a constant frustration,

573

: 00:30:03

at least from our side of the

fence of Oh, how can I just get.

574

: 00:30:06

It's just a way for the sellers

to follow a simple process.

575

: 00:30:09

Brian LaManna: I think the framing

of it like earlier in the episode, we

576

: 00:30:12

talked about framing in terms of like

next steps and you're not just telling

577

: 00:30:16

the buyer, Hey, we need next steps.

578

: 00:30:18

Important to us and it's critical and

you just have to do a type of thing.

579

: 00:30:23

What's your calendar look like?

580

: 00:30:25

I think the same thing rev ops framing

for sales and why it will ultimately

581

: 00:30:30

benefit them more at the end of the day.

582

: 00:30:32

And just pulling through an example

of like, maybe how we've used that

583

: 00:30:37

data that you all were able to support

to make a decision as an example,

584

: 00:30:43

you know, Hey sellers, because the

team was so good about filling.

585

: 00:30:47

the marketing source out

for how they heard about us.

586

: 00:30:50

We learned that we're getting

way more from organic search

587

: 00:30:54

in terms of our inbound.

588

: 00:30:56

We actually hired an additional SEO

manager because we learned our attribution

589

: 00:31:01

is so heavy from organic search.

590

: 00:31:03

That's how people are finding us.

591

: 00:31:05

So people are finding our

product and our market.

592

: 00:31:08

We brought in that SEO manager and

over the past year now, we've doubled

593

: 00:31:13

our inbound from organic, which has

brought all of you even more demo

594

: 00:31:17

requests to your book of accounts.

595

: 00:31:19

So I think just giving like a tie

through and a follow through of from

596

: 00:31:22

them updating a field to a business

decision that was made and then

597

: 00:31:27

closing the loop back to them and now

it's going to help them hit their.

598

: 00:31:31

Revenue and their numbers.

599

: 00:31:32

I'll be the first to admit it.

600

: 00:31:33

I think a lot of sellers are selfish,

me included, and they're thinking

601

: 00:31:37

about their own priorities, goals,

and sometimes they're under a lot of

602

: 00:31:40

stress to, to hit those and they're

thinking about those first and foremost.

603

: 00:31:45

Justin Norris: Anything in particular,

like focusing on the good as well

604

: 00:31:48

that your ROA ops team does today,

or that you've experienced that you

605

: 00:31:51

really like, that's really helpful.

606

: 00:31:52

You know, that other teams could emulate.

607

: 00:31:54

Brian LaManna: They remove

a lot of barriers for us.

608

: 00:31:56

They like to share and highlight

when they've been able to

609

: 00:31:59

automate different things.

610

: 00:32:01

So as an example, you know, with Gong,

we're able to pick up if a competitor

611

: 00:32:05

is mentioned in a conversation.

612

: 00:32:07

So instead of having to flag each time

now in Salesforce that they brought

613

: 00:32:11

up our competitor Acme, we're able

to automatically trigger a field via

614

: 00:32:16

an automation and take another step.

615

: 00:32:19

So I think they like to

highlight some of those wins.

616

: 00:32:22

In terms of what they can bring, they

highlight a lot of like transparency

617

: 00:32:26

to around like how territories are cut

how accounts are divvied up to make it

618

: 00:32:31

really fair and between different sellers

where they'll join all hands or join,

619

: 00:32:36

go to market meetings and peel back the

curtain for like how they gave Brian his

620

: 00:32:41

territory versus Justin's and all the work

and all the hard effort that goes behind.

621

: 00:32:46

And I think that builds up a lot of

Respect just with seeing that kind of

622

: 00:32:50

transparency forward and gives it an

open forum as well that if anyone does

623

: 00:32:54

have questions about it or concerns,

like they have an open space to ask that

624

: 00:32:59

doesn't just involve setting up a meeting

with them, sending them a slack message.

625

: 00:33:04

Justin Norris: I will say one of the

first things that got me into ops

626

: 00:33:07

and like really made me enjoy it was.

627

: 00:33:10

Working closely with a sales team and just

getting requests about how to improve the

628

: 00:33:15

efficiency of their user experience in the

CRM and Oh, could we, make this like this?

629

: 00:33:20

Could we make this a different color?

630

: 00:33:21

Could you help me more productive?

631

: 00:33:22

And being able to deliver those

features and then just feeling

632

: 00:33:25

like the love flow back when you

help make their lives easier.

633

: 00:33:29

That's a really virtuous circle

as well of like increasing

634

: 00:33:33

productivity, increasing trust.

635

: 00:33:35

So I think, that's like

a happy path to take.

636

: 00:33:38

And then maybe you get them to

update a few things for you as

637

: 00:33:40

well as like the payback for that.

638

: 00:33:42

Talking a little bit about

sales work structure.

639

: 00:33:45

You know, You mentioned prospecting.

640

: 00:33:47

I know there's a lot of teams

where the AE is still prospecting.

641

: 00:33:51

It's not prospecting.

642

: 00:33:52

I saw an interesting take the other day

that like, you know, if you're an AE who's

643

: 00:33:56

prospecting, you're wasting your time.

644

: 00:33:58

It should be closing.

645

: 00:33:58

So there's kind of a debate on this.

646

: 00:34:00

What's your point of view and

sort of justification for why

647

: 00:34:03

that's important for you to do?

648

: 00:34:04

Brian LaManna: I think it's

critical to some degree.

649

: 00:34:07

I think there is a balance, right?

650

: 00:34:09

I don't think you would want.

651

: 00:34:11

Really tremendous a year, closer

type person to spend, you know,

652

: 00:34:15

35 hours of their week prospecting

because, you know, inbound isn't

653

: 00:34:20

there supporting or you know, you have

no SDR support or things like that.

654

: 00:34:25

It does really just depend on the

type of organization and their like

655

: 00:34:28

go to market structure in terms of

what will be the best fit for them?

656

: 00:34:32

Having a more SDRs, having

more full cycle sellers.

657

: 00:34:36

I take pride in it.

658

: 00:34:37

I think when I was in SDR, I was dying

to get to an account executive because

659

: 00:34:42

I was like, I just want to close deals.

660

: 00:34:44

I don't want to prospect anymore.

661

: 00:34:46

was making a hundred plus, dials a

day at that point and email blasting

662

: 00:34:50

everyone on my list and shit like that

worked back then as well to some degree.

663

: 00:34:55

So, I was ready to be over it

and just be on the closing side.

664

: 00:34:58

And I think I learned pretty

quickly after the like.

665

: 00:35:01

Going back to what I shared earlier,

if you just sit back and wait for

666

: 00:35:05

opportunities only to come to you,

like your path to success at that

667

: 00:35:10

point is pretty much fully dependent on

marketing and maybe sales development.

668

: 00:35:16

And I want to make sure that I have

a path to my own financial goals,

669

: 00:35:20

my own, career progression, my own

recognition at my company that isn't

670

: 00:35:25

fully reliant on different people

that I just don't have control of.

671

: 00:35:29

So I think it comes back

to extreme ownership.

672

: 00:35:31

At the end of the day, if they're going

to put accounts in my name, I'm going

673

: 00:35:35

to work them to the fullest extent.

674

: 00:35:38

There's always more you can be doing

in terms of And as an AE I could

675

: 00:35:43

work a hundred hours this week and

still have more accounts I could

676

: 00:35:47

be hitting and prospects I could

be touching and things like that.

677

: 00:35:50

So at a certain point there are like

diminishing returns for what is worth it

678

: 00:35:53

and how much work you do want to put in.

679

: 00:35:55

But I try to make

prospecting a daily habit.

680

: 00:35:58

My overall philosophy on it's I do a

little every day, so you never have

681

: 00:36:04

to do a lot and you're never way

behind I try to at least touch two

682

: 00:36:09

to three accounts every single day.

683

: 00:36:11

no matter if it's just 15 minutes of

work, it pays off in the long run.

684

: 00:36:15

Justin Norris: It's kind of like eating

your vegetables, if you don't like

685

: 00:36:17

vegetables, but like doing that thing

that you know is good for you and you do

686

: 00:36:21

it in appropriate doses on a daily basis.

687

: 00:36:24

do you feel as long as you're in I.

688

: 00:36:25

C.

689

: 00:36:26

no matter, What level of the hierarchy

you're at, you'll still do it or do you

690

: 00:36:29

think there's a time and place where

a seller, like someone really should

691

: 00:36:32

just be closing and focused in that

way and not worried about that anymore?

692

: 00:36:36

Brian LaManna: will always prospect and

I'm on the record now saying it as well.

693

: 00:36:39

So you can play this clip back, but

694

: 00:36:41

I take pride in being a full cycle seller

and I put pressure on myself to live up

695

: 00:36:46

to that identity as someone that can not

just close pipeline, but create pipeline.

696

: 00:36:51

And it's another lever that I have,

if I'm behind on my month or on my

697

: 00:36:55

quarter, because I'm always prospecting

and I'm sharp in that degree.

698

: 00:37:00

If I need to put an extra

couple hours in that week, cause

699

: 00:37:03

I'm really low on pipeline.

700

: 00:37:04

I can pull that lever.

701

: 00:37:06

Cause I know I have it.

702

: 00:37:07

I know I'm.

703

: 00:37:08

Not rusty or haven't done this in months.

704

: 00:37:10

But I loved your point, Justin you

know, it's like eating your vegetables.

705

: 00:37:13

And I think that's the hardest

part I've learned is I've started

706

: 00:37:16

working larger deals and move more

up market as a seller is like.

707

: 00:37:20

revenue lags, hard work, the hard work

I put in this morning into prospecting,

708

: 00:37:27

this new account, I won't see a dime

of result from that maybe ever, but

709

: 00:37:33

at least for two or three months,

and you've got to be okay with that.

710

: 00:37:36

you have to invest in

playing that long game.

711

: 00:37:39

Because suddenly, know, I'll be turning

around in June or July putting in my

712

: 00:37:43

forecast and I'll probably be forecasting

some deal that, I put in the work on

713

: 00:37:47

a Tuesday or Wednesday morning when

I, I easily could have said screw it

714

: 00:37:51

Justin Norris: So do you still work

with SDRs in your current role or

715

: 00:37:55

at Gong it's just you know, the full

cycle AEs and everyone does that job?

716

: 00:38:00

Brian LaManna: It's changed over

my two and a half years here.

717

: 00:38:03

Currently we do have SDR support.

718

: 00:38:06

We're in SDR is helping like three

different account executives.

719

: 00:38:11

So you definitely can't rely on

them to make sure you have your

720

: 00:38:15

pipeline coverage in and of itself.

721

: 00:38:17

I also have just seen, because, I know

my accounts exceptionally well, and what

722

: 00:38:22

would make a good fit for Gong and giving

them an even better buying experience

723

: 00:38:27

instead of talking to another rep and

then it being a handoff to, you know,

724

: 00:38:30

another rep and some context being lost.

725

: 00:38:32

Like.

726

: 00:38:32

From first reach out through the entirety

of a cycle, I've noticed my win rates are

727

: 00:38:38

much higher and it's extra motivating when

I know my self source close rate was like

728

: 00:38:43

34 percent last year in 2023 and then non

self sources, it's a little bit below 25%.

729

: 00:38:50

So if I know one of every three

opportunities I generate is going to turn

730

: 00:38:53

into closed one revenue, like I guess I

would ask a seller at my org or anywhere

731

: 00:38:57

else, like who wouldn't want a prospect?

732

: 00:38:59

I

733

: 00:39:00

Justin Norris: Makes sense to me.

734

: 00:39:02

So we've gone into the outbound topic.

735

: 00:39:04

There's a lot of debate out there.

736

: 00:39:07

I think this year in particular, a

lot of people talking about how, the

737

: 00:39:12

predictable revenue model doesn't

work anymore, doesn't work the same.

738

: 00:39:17

I've lived that to a degree.

739

: 00:39:18

I mean, I've been significantly

involved, not as a seller, but as

740

: 00:39:21

an ops person, helping stand up an

outbound motion and going through

741

: 00:39:25

those trials and tribulations.

742

: 00:39:27

And even just over the last

few years, I've seen how

743

: 00:39:30

that market's gotten tougher.

744

: 00:39:32

What's your point of view on outbound?

745

: 00:39:35

Are the people saying it's dying,

just not good at it, or have the

746

: 00:39:38

conditions actually really changed?

747

: 00:39:40

Brian LaManna: people that are saying

it, or at least the people that I

748

: 00:39:43

see say it, are mostly on LinkedIn,

and they're mostly writing that as

749

: 00:39:47

their hook, that cold calling his

dad, or email his dad, or XYZ his dad.

750

: 00:39:52

I think it makes for a really great

catchy headline, but that's just not

751

: 00:39:56

the experience I've seen, or I sell

the revenue leaders every day at gong

752

: 00:40:02

and their revenue organization is

talking to us about outbound and being

753

: 00:40:07

more efficient and generating pipeline

all the way through your clothes.

754

: 00:40:11

And that's not what we're hearing either.

755

: 00:40:13

I think the tactics and the

approach has absolutely changed.

756

: 00:40:17

I mean, if you just rewind 5 years.

757

: 00:40:20

Five years ago, I was, calling people at

their desk, their direct lines, because

758

: 00:40:24

people were 100 percent in the office.

759

: 00:40:28

We were blasting people's emails.

760

: 00:40:30

Reply rates were around

percent back in: 2019

761

: 00:40:34

It felt low to me back in the day.

762

: 00:40:37

That's really freaking high looking back

763

: 00:40:39

this

764

: 00:40:39

Justin Norris: killed for 6%.

765

: 00:40:41

Brian LaManna: Yeah, I

would die for 6 percent now.

766

: 00:40:45

So I think the approach has had

to change with AI and robo callers

767

: 00:40:51

and email blasting tools and

stuff like that, I can't really

768

: 00:40:56

don't think it benefits anyone.

769

: 00:40:58

But had to change into being more

human and your approach into using.

770

: 00:41:02

More introductions warm intros and partner

selling and really creative methods like

771

: 00:41:10

gifting or different types of emails that

like clearly make it seem like you did

772

: 00:41:15

your homework and it was a human wrote it.

773

: 00:41:17

And it wasn't just some generic

template that, you know,

774

: 00:41:20

chat GBT filled in for you.

775

: 00:41:21

So I think in a lot of ways, like

it's just made really good sellers

776

: 00:41:27

that we're good at prospecting, like.

777

: 00:41:29

Have an even bigger advantage to

some degree, and it's made really bad

778

: 00:41:33

prospecting people just scale what

they were doing, which was already

779

: 00:41:37

garbage, and it's not working.

780

: 00:41:39

Justin Norris: let's just take an

example then of what good can look

781

: 00:41:41

like, and I agree for the record

with everything that you just said.

782

: 00:41:45

Let's say you take me, we're already a

Gong customer at my company, but let's

783

: 00:41:48

say we weren't and you're like, all

right, Justin, he's an ops, maybe he is

784

: 00:41:52

going to be a buyer of Gong and he needs

call recording software for his reps.

785

: 00:41:56

What's the thought process look like?

786

: 00:41:57

How do you start crafting an email that's

going to feel relevant and not feel

787

: 00:42:01

like something I'm just going to delete?

788

: 00:42:03

Brian LaManna: Yeah,

that's a great question.

789

: 00:42:04

So like I shared earlier, I

am pretty big on frameworks.

790

: 00:42:08

I think it's in particular helpful

for email because there's certain

791

: 00:42:12

aspects that make for a strong email

in terms of the foundation of it.

792

: 00:42:16

But it's really easy as a seller.

793

: 00:42:18

If I'm writing an email to Justin Norris

to just suddenly get a bit of writer's

794

: 00:42:21

block, and if I want to personalize

it, suddenly it's 20 25 minutes in,

795

: 00:42:25

and I'm spending way too much time, and

candidly, you might not ever open it

796

: 00:42:29

or even see it, so there's got to be

a balance, right, between adding that

797

: 00:42:33

relevance and personalization and the

time that you're going to put into it.

798

: 00:42:37

So the first thing I do when I send an

email is I always look for a relevant

799

: 00:42:42

like business related observation.

800

: 00:42:45

So in your case, I would

go to 360 learning.

801

: 00:42:47

I would go to your website.

802

: 00:42:49

I would go to your home page, your blog.

803

: 00:42:52

I would type in 360 learning

into Google News as well.

804

: 00:42:55

And I'm trying to understand some like

new initiative that the team's focused

805

: 00:42:59

on, a new product, a new industry,

something new and that's a really

806

: 00:43:03

big focus that I can latch on to.

807

: 00:43:06

And ultimately tie how our solution

can help back to that initiative

808

: 00:43:11

and your role in particular.

809

: 00:43:13

So that's that first piece.

810

: 00:43:14

I'm trying to find an observation.

811

: 00:43:17

The second is I'm going to leverage your

title and share a problem that persona

812

: 00:43:22

typically faces back to that initiative.

813

: 00:43:24

So I might say, Hey, Directors of

marketing operations tell us that,

814

: 00:43:30

X, Y, Z becomes even more challenging

as you launch into new product,

815

: 00:43:35

I then frame up the different

benefits in terms of the solutions.

816

: 00:43:38

I'm not going to say Hey, Gong works by

doing feature X feature Y and feature Z

817

: 00:43:45

I'm going to frame it again in terms of

you and of saying, Hey, marketing leaders

818

: 00:43:48

will leverage a solution like Gong to.

819

: 00:43:51

unlock the voice of the customer in

that new industry I end up with a

820

: 00:43:56

really simple CTA, like ever heard of

us before, open to checking us out, just

821

: 00:44:00

something simple and like more casual.

822

: 00:44:02

And then I put a PS in there that

makes it screen that email was

823

: 00:44:07

only written to that individual.

824

: 00:44:09

So in your case, I might

say, Hey, Piaz, congrats.

825

: 00:44:12

I saw you just had your two year

anniversary with 360Learning.

826

: 00:44:16

Back in 2022, congrats

on all the success or PS.

827

: 00:44:21

I saw on the side, you actually

launched a podcast called Rev

828

: 00:44:24

Ops FM back in September of 2023.

829

: 00:44:28

I'll have to give an episode to listen.

830

: 00:44:31

So I'm making something really obvious.

831

: 00:44:33

So that Justin, when

you open up that email.

832

: 00:44:35

Often times buyers will scan the

very top and the very bottom.

833

: 00:44:40

I want you to know that it wasn't

Chad GPT and that it was Brian

834

: 00:44:43

And that you should take your time

now to actually read through it.

835

: 00:44:46

I,

836

: 00:44:46

Justin Norris: what you demonstrated

there and you wrote about this in a

837

: 00:44:49

LinkedIn post that I read the other day.

838

: 00:44:51

The difference between being

personalized and being highly relevant.

839

: 00:44:55

And you cited an example that was

really personalized, or you know, the

840

: 00:44:59

person's high school that they went

to, and the football team, whatever.

841

: 00:45:03

It was really specific stuff, but

it was no reason for them to care.

842

: 00:45:07

Versus things that are personalized, but

also highly relevant to that context.

843

: 00:45:12

And it's such an important distinction.

844

: 00:45:14

Because you can be really creepy and

detailed about someone but it doesn't

845

: 00:45:17

give them any reason to actually be

interested in what you have to say.

846

: 00:45:20

Brian LaManna: I love that you

read that and called it out too.

847

: 00:45:23

Cause again, if I'm writing this email

to you, I could probably put together

848

: 00:45:26

a really cool email from what you

put out on LinkedIn and your podcast.

849

: 00:45:29

Make it all about RevOps FM and

I could listen to an episode

850

: 00:45:33

and put all of that in an email.

851

: 00:45:35

But Justin, if you're a super busy guy.

852

: 00:45:38

And we have this software

on like, just making up a

853

: 00:45:40

marketing automation, who cares?

854

: 00:45:43

That's great that they did all their

research and you might smile at it or

855

: 00:45:47

laugh or say, Hey, that was a great email.

856

: 00:45:48

But if we're not legitimately helping

some problem or some initiative you're

857

: 00:45:54

working on, like, why would you invest

30 minutes of your time or for an hour?

858

: 00:45:58

other than to be nice, you would

say no, or at least I would,

859

: 00:46:01

and I'm an account executive.

860

: 00:46:03

I'm not a director like yourself.

861

: 00:46:04

So I think at the end of the

day, that's why that relevance

862

: 00:46:07

piece is really important.

863

: 00:46:08

That observation that I referenced,

it's always business related.

864

: 00:46:11

It's not specific to your hometown

or your college or your podcast.

865

: 00:46:17

It's something specific to.

866

: 00:46:19

Your role and likely something you're

working on from some really quick

867

: 00:46:23

research looking at 360 learning, your

website, Google news, things like that.

868

: 00:46:28

Justin Norris: I loved that post that

you made because I thought it, it

869

: 00:46:31

captured a really important distinction

that not a lot of people get and a

870

: 00:46:34

lot of people fall into that trap of

personalizing about things that don't

871

: 00:46:37

actually matter to business problems

versus aiming at being highly relevant.

872

: 00:46:42

So great read to anyone and I

will include a link to that post

873

: 00:46:44

in the show notes worth reading.

874

: 00:46:45

Maybe the last question we

have time for a bonus question.

875

: 00:46:49

you don't hear this

phrase very much anymore.

876

: 00:46:50

It almost sounds very dated, but I don't

know how many years ago, but there was

877

: 00:46:53

a lot of talk about like social selling

and sellers being on social media and

878

: 00:46:57

on LinkedIn and using that to sell.

879

: 00:46:59

And generally speaking in practice,

it's often been really cringey.

880

: 00:47:03

Like people not really coming into

a party and handing out all their

881

: 00:47:07

business cards or just behaving in

a way that doesn't really vibe with

882

: 00:47:10

that environment or just dMing people

on LinkedIn like that's social selling

883

: 00:47:14

and you I think have embodied a very

different approach You know, it's

884

: 00:47:17

been very successful on LinkedIn.

885

: 00:47:19

You have tens of thousands of followers.

886

: 00:47:21

I don't know the exact number Have

used it to build up, you know a Really

887

: 00:47:25

valuable like side business for yourself

at close one where you're selling

888

: 00:47:28

resources to other sellers How did

you get the knack of this and kind of

889

: 00:47:33

figure out the right way to do this?

890

: 00:47:35

Was it trial and error?

891

: 00:47:35

Was it just, again, something

that, you felt right away?

892

: 00:47:38

How did that work for you?

893

: 00:47:39

Brian LaManna: I wish I could tell you

that I just created this master plan

894

: 00:47:43

and I've just executed it to a tee.

895

: 00:47:46

Since I started posting, it was a little

less than two years ago, it was June of

896

: 00:47:49

2022, but It's the same thing as selling.

897

: 00:47:51

Like I just, it started

cause I was curious.

898

: 00:47:53

I saw some other sellers at Gong

and other companies that would

899

: 00:47:57

occasionally post on LinkedIn.

900

: 00:47:59

So I think it was June of 2022.

901

: 00:48:01

I decided to make a post about, some of my

highs and some of my lows from that week.

902

: 00:48:07

I started really small.

903

: 00:48:08

My, goal was to put myself

out there a little bit more.

904

: 00:48:11

I started once a week.

905

: 00:48:13

Then twice a week in terms of

posts and three times a week.

906

: 00:48:16

And they were starting to

gain a little bit of traction.

907

: 00:48:18

When I say a little bit of track, you

don't get 40 likes and some people

908

: 00:48:21

would comment on it this is so cool.

909

: 00:48:23

You know, where's this going?

910

: 00:48:24

You know, et cetera.

911

: 00:48:26

I think since then it's, you know,

I've continued to build on it, iterate.

912

: 00:48:29

I launched a newsletter, launched

a side business because of it.

913

: 00:48:33

But it's really helped in

terms of my role as well.

914

: 00:48:35

I've gone, not because I'm quote

unquote, social selling, like just DMing

915

: 00:48:41

people and expecting them to follow

me on LinkedIn or know my content.

916

: 00:48:46

I actually don't use it

at all for that at all.

917

: 00:48:48

I don't prospect at all from LinkedIn.

918

: 00:48:50

Candidly, cause I think DMs on LinkedIn

are just a absolute mess to try to

919

: 00:48:55

handle and manage, and I get a lot

of junk sent to me having founder

920

: 00:48:59

and CEO, and one of my titles where

I get, lead gen services about 30

921

: 00:49:03

times a day from all over the world.

922

: 00:49:06

So it

923

: 00:49:06

makes it a little bit

challenging to even use.

924

: 00:49:09

But it does help me in a really unique

way in which I'll add a lot of my

925

: 00:49:13

prospects on LinkedIn, and they're going

to just naturally start to see my name.

926

: 00:49:18

My company more, and it goes back

to the point we talked about 20

927

: 00:49:21

minutes in is I'm looking for ways

to continue to advance the deal.

928

: 00:49:25

If I have a meeting Monday and the next

meeting Friday, I don't want Justin

929

: 00:49:28

to go four days without thinking about

going once because you're super busy

930

: 00:49:32

and you have a million other projects

like they even see me on LinkedIn one.

931

: 00:49:36

So they see my company then

they might click on the page.

932

: 00:49:39

That's a win for me.

933

: 00:49:40

It's very hard to attribute directly

back to any form of success, but like

934

: 00:49:45

anything to continue to get my name

out there and have people think about

935

: 00:49:48

it, hopefully in a favorable light from

the different, like highs, lows, what's

936

: 00:49:53

working for me or what's not that I try

to be just really honest about on LinkedIn

937

: 00:49:57

is kind of my, public facing sales

journal in a way, to me, it's a huge win.

938

: 00:50:01

And it's not why I did what I did.

939

: 00:50:03

It's not, why I created it from the onset,

but it definitely has been a huge asset.

940

: 00:50:07

Justin Norris: Love all this.

941

: 00:50:08

Brian, thank you so much for

sharing your insights with us.

942

: 00:50:10

And everyone out there, you want

to learn more about how Brian does

943

: 00:50:14

what he does, you can head over to

closedwon.xyz it's got some resources

944

: 00:50:18

there that you can check out.

945

: 00:50:20

Brian, thank you so

much for being with us.

946

: 00:50:23

Brian LaManna: Thanks for having me.