Episode 1

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Published on:

30th Sep 2023

Legends of GTM - Jon Miller

B2B Marketing can be broadly grouped into eras based on specific go-to-market strategies that were dominant at the time.

Today's guest played a pivotal role in the development of not just one but two (!) of these era-defining strategies: lead generation / content marketing and account-based marketing (ABM).

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About Today's Guest

Jon Miller was the co-founder and first CMO of Marketo, CEO of Engagio, and CMO of DemandBase.

From Jon's LinkedIn: "Jon has played a pivotal role in shaping the world’s most disruptive marketing technology platforms, with a focus on thought leadership, category creation, and strategic go-to-market."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmiller2/

Key Topics

  • [01:30] - Founding of Marketo, positioning against Eloqua
  • [05:25] - Jon's early use of content marketing, around the same time as Hubspot. Definitive Guides.
  • [10:45] - Marketo's early revenue process. Lead scoring. SDR qualification.
  • [13:50] - Issues with the lead generation model.
  • [21:13] - Rise of ABM. Founding of Engagio. Relationship with Terminus and DemandBase. Flip My Funnel. Acquisition of Engagio.
  • [29:06] - Effectiveness of ABM. Challenges. Importance of seeing ABM as a spectrum vs. a binary.
  • [34:05] - Jon's axioms of marketing
  • [35:50] - Development of marketing operations. RevOps. What marketing operations needs to do to be more strategic.
  • [45:05] - What's next in GTM? Potential impact of AI.

Resource Links

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LinkedIn - General

Transcript
Justin Norris:

You know, if there's one thing we're good at in B two B marketing,

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it's getting ourselves excited about

whatever the latest and greatest thing is.

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And sometimes these are passing

fads and things that just

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kind of fade away with time.

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There's another kind of idea out

there that really embodies an

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entire go-to-market strategy.

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And sometimes these ideas end up.

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defining how revenue teams do

business when they really catch

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on, at least for a period of time.

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And today's guest has played a huge part

in establishing not just one, but actually

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two of these era defining g t m motions.

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Doing that with content marketing

and lead generation as the C

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m O and co-founder at Marketo.

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And second, with the concept of

account-based marketing which he

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pioneered as the c e O of Engagio.

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Then the c m O of Demandbase.

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So I'm super excited to

welcome Jon Miller to the show.

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Jon, thanks for being here.

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Jon, this is a special episode for

me 'cause we're kind of talking

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about history that I've lived

through was big part of my career.

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So excited to do that.

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Maybe we can just kick it off with

a little bit of , inside baseball

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on those early days at Marketo.

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What was that like,

founding that kind of era?

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And just maybe walk us

through that a little bit.

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Jon Miller: Yeah, so you know,

we're talking late:

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Just to kind of ground us historically

software as a service was still

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relatively new at the time.

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So it was far enough along that

when we were starting Marketo,

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we didn't have to say, Ooh, it's

a software as a service company.

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But it was still pretty early.

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Lot there hadn't been a successful

MarTech company before Marketo

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kind of really came along.

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And.

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You know, MarTech is an interesting

category because, you know, marketers

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have lots of budget to spend money,

but they're also perceived as a cost

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center by most of the organization.

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And what that means is that before

SaaS came along, MarTech was hard

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because people didn't want to put

capital investment you know, expensive

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on-premise software for what was

perceived as a cost center SaaS.

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And Marketo really unlocked that because

marketers really for the first time

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could buy out of their program dollars.

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You know, and that was

our mission for Marketo.

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We said we wanted to make

marketing software be as easy

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to buy as Google AdWords.

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Justin Norris: So were you in your

mind's positioning yourselves against

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expensive on-premise software, or were

there other kind of players or legacy

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players in the SaaS space that you were

in a category with in those early days?

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Jon Miller: Yeah,

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Justin Norris: I.

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Jon Miller: question.

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I mean, the, the prior generation

of on-premise was epiphany where

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I came from before Marketo, broad

base, And the reality is none of

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those tools had really made it.

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And so I.

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There was the company we positioned

against back in:

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was a company called Eloqua.

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Uh, Eloqua started in 1999

actually, but had evolved onto

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software as a service model.

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And, you know, they had fortunately

been able to sort of start to build

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the category even before we got there.

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But also Eloqua was perceived as

being expensive and hard to use.

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And so it was nice, we could,

we could build Marketo and, and,

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we basically positioned it as,

Hey, it's marketing automation,

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everything you want from Eloqua,

but it's affordable and easy to use.

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Justin Norris: Got it.

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Jon Miller: you know, against a larger

company that had, for lack of a better

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word, some flaws really helped us

you know, kind of get things started.

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Justin Norris: So they had kind of

broken ground with the category,

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and then you could come in and be

like, we are a better version of that

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thing that you've been hearing about.

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Jon Miller: Exactly.

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You know, and, you know, some people sort

of give me credit for creating categories.

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The reality is I don't think

I've created categories.

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I think what I've done is I've entered

existing categories with perhaps a better

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design or a better solution, and then

used that to help unlock the category.

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You know, I mean, the classic

example of doing that obviously, I

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think is the iPhone, you know, which

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Justin Norris: Right.

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Jon Miller: the iPhone there were all

sorts of designs for how people should

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build an iPhone or build a phone.

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They had keyboards, they folded, they

did that, and, you know, and then

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the iPhone came around and it was

so clearly that's the right design.

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Now every phone looks like a black,

you know, brick with a screen.

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Justin Norris: Have you

seen the Blackberry movie?

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Jon Miller: I've not seen the movie, no.

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Justin Norris: We're well worth

watching looks exactly that.

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The introduction to the Blackberry,

kind of how it took over, and

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then how they were just completely

sideswiped by the iPhone

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Jon Miller: yeah, that's sort

of similar to what I tried to

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do with Marketo versus Eloqua.

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And as we get to it, similar to what

I tried to do with Engage, you also.

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Justin Norris: So talking a little

bit about specifically the marketing

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efforts during that time at Marketo

and I think like, like content

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marketing, inbound marketing.

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Was this, was this pre HubSpot kind

of using that term inbound marketing

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and really popularizing it or was it

sort of contemporaneous with that?

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Jon Miller: It was contemporaneous.

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Marketo and HubSpot got started

almost exactly the same time.

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And even to the point that I remember,

there's a very early Early, early meeting,

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where Phil Fernandez and I, my, you

know, he's my Marketo co-founder met

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up with Brian Hagan and Dharmesh from

HubSpot, you know, on university a in Palo

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Alto, you know, and we're a little bit

talking about, Hey, what are you doing?

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What are we doing?

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We keep hearing about you because

it sort of seems similar, but you're

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on Boston and we're in California.

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So, know, but we ended up, I think,

seeing a lot of the same trends and

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applying that to our go to market.

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I had, I mean, sort of funny story bef

when I was deciding to start Marketo, my

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main alternative career I was considering

at the time was to be a Forester analyst.

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And I actually got a job offer to do that.

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The reason I mentioned that is

because I knew I wanted to write,

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Know, when I started doing this

company, I knew I wanted to share

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ideas and thought leadership.

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And I remember I, I had lunch with

Sean Whiteley, who is over qualified

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now, was at Kean at the time.

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And he just told me, you know, just

start blogging, you know, just, just

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start blogging and put it out there

and people will find your stuff.

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And I was like, okay, I'll try it.

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So yeah, I did start blogging at

Marketo before we even wrote our

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first line of code, and I was

blogging about things that were much

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bigger than just Marketo was doing.

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I wrote a lot about how is marketing

changing and what is the role of the

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cmo and how do CMOs earn credibility

and respect and, you know, I, I

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networked with other bloggers, you

know, and, and it built a following.

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It built an audience such that when

we actually had Marketo ready to

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go and build, there was, you know,

and have that message of, Hey, oh

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hey, it's like Eloqua, but it's

more affordable and easier to use.

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There was an audience ready to hear that.

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Justin Norris: So drilling down into

that point one of the things that I

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remember very well from that era were

the definitive guides that you would

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put out, which were kind of like eBooks

on steroids for people that, that don't

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remember them, but they were really big

marquee pieces of content that kind of

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Captured a lot of information

like nurturing, lead scoring.

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There were a few and, and

you mentioned blogging.

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I'd forgotten that, but I really, I'm now

remembering like how present you were.

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A lot of CMOs exist in the

background and then they have teams

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executing, but you were really

the face of marketing at Marketo.

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Where did, I guess, did these definitive

guys come out of your desire to write?

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Was there a defined

strategy in going there?

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What led you there?

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Jon Miller: Yeah, the decision

guides probably were a little later.

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Just to put in context, I think the

irst one probably came out in:

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Justin Norris: Okay.

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Jon Miller: So, know, we had, we

had built our first couple products.

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We were kind of in market.

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But there was a specific meeting I

had with Phil, our c e o I think,

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where he sort of was challenging me

to, to kind of create something that

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was even more black letter word,

definitive, you know, out there,

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uh, um, about the nurturing.

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So, you know, I went and we wrote this

and at the time it was like 45 pages.

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You know, and oh wow,

that's a long, it's long.

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On eBooks, we call it a definitive guide.

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My most recent definitive guide was 220.

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either, you know they, they've bloated

over the years, or I've had more to say.

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Justin Norris: .And how, do you

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remember from a marketing point

of view, how those were received?

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Like, did you just see a, a huge

flood of leads in the beginning

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or was it kind of a, a slow and

steady trickle with that process?

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I.

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Jon Miller: Well, at the times, the

center guides worked really well for us.

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You know, both just, Hey,

we could announce it.

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And, especially after the first

one when people sort of knew,

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oh, these things are pretty good.

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We'd announce it and we'd get, we'd get

a lot of we'd get a lot of downloads.

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We also did Other clever things, I

think, to try to get more downloads.

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We'd intersperse interviews with other

thought leaders throughout the guide.

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And then we'd also have a list at the

back of experts to follow, so then when we

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launched it, we could tag all those people

and let them all know about it, you know?

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So we could have a more, you

know, there was also already

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kind of a built-in endorsement.

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and then we use the there's

lots of names for the strategy.

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Some people call it, you know,

the, the bison because the American

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Indians used to use every piece of

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Detached audio: the

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Jon Miller: bison, or we like

reuse and repurpose the content.

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one definitive guide would also turn

into, you know, a virtual event,

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two webinars, eight blog posts,

you know, a whole bunch of social,

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Justin Norris: Infographics.

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Jon Miller: Infographics.

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Yeah,

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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Jon Miller: Just a lot of

repurposing of the content.

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Justin Norris: And, and, and from a,

like you know, the, the, call it the

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manufacturing process, was it Were

you embodying a Marketo, pretty much

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like what you were preaching on the

outside in the sense of like leads

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would come in, they would get nurtured,

they would get scored, they would be

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handed over to SDRs to be qualified.

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How did kind of that aspect of it work?

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Jon Miller: Yeah, I mean at the

time at Marketo, we definitely

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were practicing what we preached.

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As I like to say, we were

drinking our own champagne.

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So it, it was exactly, it was the

model that a lot of companies are

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Justin Norris: I.

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Jon Miller: today.

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You know, we, the, the, the key,

probably the key innovation was

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just because you downloaded the

ebook did not make you a lead.

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if you downloaded the ebook, you

came in as what we called an inquiry,

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and then only if you looked like

you were somebody in our I C P.

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right kind of persona,

the right kind of company.

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we call you a prospect?

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In the earliest days, I had my junior mops

person looking at each lead and he was

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deciding, know, is this a prospect or not?

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And then as our technology

got a little better, we were

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able to automate that process.

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But just because you're a

prospect, did not call you.

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We would then put you into a nurture.

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And we had a scoring threshold,

and you only became a lead or an

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M Q L when your score re above

to reach a certain certain goal.

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On average, a prospect was in our

database for 330 days between when

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they first came in as a prospect and

when they finally became an M Q L.

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Justin Norris: That's interesting

and, and did, did you have any data

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on like how many pieces of content

they may have consumed during that

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time, or like how many touch points

it may have taken them over that time?

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I mean, obviously not looking

for a specific answer, but just

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Jon Miller: I had all that data.

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I don't remember,

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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Jon Miller: it

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Detached audio: right

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Jon Miller: now.

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but the other, so the other

interesting note point is that

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three 30 days was an average.

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However, about half the M QLS that

we had each month would have come

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from new prospects that month.

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so you think about, you know,

we kind of half would come in

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would sort of come in interested.

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And they'd fill out a contact me form just

do a bunch, like immediately light up.

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then the other half of our M QLS were

ones that kind of had nurtured over

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time, perhaps for more than a year.

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Once it was an M Q L went to an S D R,

they'd qualify it, they would go to, you

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know, the right ones would go to sales.

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We had a relatively low bar for

what it needed to be to be an M Q

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L because I didn't want to have any

false negatives and like not send

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stuff over that we should have.

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Justin Norris: Yep.

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Jon Miller: Then the SDRs were really

strict about what they would pass over

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to sales, because I wanted the sales

reps every time they got something

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from their S D R smell money to know

like, okay, this is gonna be good.

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Justin Norris: Did

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SDRs report to marketing or

did you have a separate team?

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A separate leader for that team.

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Jon Miller: changed over the

years, but probably, you know, the

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earliest days of Marketo reported

to sales, but relatively soon it

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moved to report to me in marketing.

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Justin Norris: Interesting.

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And you know, as you said, that

model has been remarkably enduring.

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I was in.

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Marketo Consulting for seven

years, and we were still

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implementing it to the day I left.

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They're still implementing it today.

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But you wrote a, I was wanting to

go in this direction, then I saw you

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wrote an article, kinda provocative

article that, that tackles this issue

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of you know, I helped create this

model but it doesn't work anymore.

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And, sorry, I'm paraphrasing

you, but roughly that and,

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and here's what works better.

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So, . Tell me, like what were

some of the issues that you saw?

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Do you think those are inherent to the

model, or was it just you know, overuse

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people taking something and using it

crudely without the same sophistication

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as the people that created it?

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What, what kind of led to to that place?

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I.

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Jon Miller: Yeah, I think there's

four main factors I'd point to.

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So, you know, you know, and, and, and,

and the data it I think is something

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that I hear when I just go talk to other

marketers and CMOs, the people listening

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probably feel this, you've probably heard

it from your other guests, but that it

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just, it seems like it, it feels like it's

hard out there to create enough pipeline.

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You know?

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It's harder than it has been.

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And there is also a anecdotal feeling

of, you know, what I used to do doesn't

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work quite as well or doesn't work

at all so that's really what I mean.

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And, and, and, and I, I'll

point to the four reasons why.

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The first one is just the time

we're in right now with the economy.

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You know, it's, we've, we, I think

we've all seen our budgets get cut

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or many people have seen budgets

get cut in the current economy.

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know, as the zeitgeist has

moved from growth at any cost to

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efficient, profitable growth we've

seen, we've seen dollars go down.

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And a lot of companies face layoffs.

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You know, and think two things

that have happened there.

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One, it's easier to cut your program

dollars than people, so we sort of

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disproportionately cut program dollars.

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And then when you're cutting people, I.

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You tend to cut more junior people

sometimes, rather than the, your

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leaders, you can end up with top

heavy teams, you know, as a result.

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So, so collectively that's just

created, I think, a challenge

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in terms of pipeline creation.

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That's, that's sort of specific to now.

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Justin Norris: because there's not

enough people to, to execute or

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there's not enough budget to execute

on some of these specific things.

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Yeah.

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Jon Miller: there's not enough

junior people to execute.

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And it's, it's just a tough, you

know, it's a tougher time, you know?

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Second, but then the other reasons

are a little bit more enduring.

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and you alluded to the first one,

which is I think just buyers have

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gotten overwhelmed and indifferent

to a lot of the different tactics.

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And we've all heard forms of this,

you know, whether it's content shock

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or, or whatever yeah, I mean, there's,

there's, there's just too many eBooks,

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too many emails, too many phone calls.

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And and the buyers have

gotten savvy, right?

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They know if they come to your site

and fill out a form for an ebook that,

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you know, they're probably gonna start

getting unwanted calls and emails.

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You know, and partly that is

people who aren't practicing the

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playbook in the right way, right?

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As I said earlier, just 'cause you

download an ebook doesn't make you an

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M Q L and yet To a lot of companies,

they're still defining their MQL that way.

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So buyers have gotten savvy.

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They're turn, you know, they're,

they're avoiding their, you know,

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our websites and our forms and

they're staying anonymous longer.

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Justin Norris: Do you think that

companies are also . Focusing a lot on

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the, like the framework and the process

of download, ebook, nurture and less

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on like to me, the whole point of the

ebook wasn't just that you gave them an

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ebook or you gave them a nurture email.

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It was that there was something really

valuable there and I wonder if like the

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people kept doing the same things, but

then a lot of the substance was almost

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sucked out of it till the content became

very generic and non valuable anymore.

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In some cases, at least.

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I know a lot of what hits

my inbox is like that.

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Jon Miller: I think,

yeah, I think that's fair.

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I mean, I do think there's a

spectrum of content quality and,

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some people are doing really good

stuff and that probably is working.

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Yeah, you're right.

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There probably is a lot of

stuff out there as well.

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I think the third reason

is inherent in the model.

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The, the traditional model that I used

to preach is that your marketing should

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be highly measurable and tied to revenue.

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And you know, I think that

has biased our investment.

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Into things where we can show more

of a direct flown into content

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syndication, paid search paid

webinars to a lesser degree.

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Certain kinds of events, you know,

because you know the ones where you can

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more easily say, I spent this much money

and we got this many people to respond,

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and then those people turned into these

kinds of leads and know, et cetera.

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Boards have come to expect those

kinds of metrics, CFOs, have come

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to expect those kinds of metrics.

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But as a result, there's been a systematic

underinvestment in more traditional brand

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brand building and you know, that that

stuff's inherently harder to measure.

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But the problem is if you're not doing

that, What ends up happening is you

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end up fighting over the same small

fraction of the market that happens to

338

:

be looking for a solution right now.

339

:

As opposed to creating market

that will be, you know, will

340

:

be looking for a solution.

341

:

Research, I've seen research that

says probably on average only

342

:

about 5% of your I C P will be in

market at any given point in time.

343

:

Long story short, on this point, we've

overinvested our budgets trying to

344

:

go after that 5% and underinvested

in kind of, you know, building

345

:

future market against the 95%.

346

:

And there's a whole bunch of

other reasons behind this.

347

:

You know, including the desire to

sort of, you know, short-term versus

348

:

thinking, you know, you, you name it.

349

:

And then lastly, the, the fourth main

flaw, which I didn't mention in the

350

:

article, but I think is also true is that

traditional model, the Marketo model was

351

:

over-focused on new pipeline generation.

352

:

It was so bad at Marketo to be honest,

that if an existing customer responded

353

:

to one of our campaigns, we literally

wouldn't count it as a success.

354

:

'cause we only wanted new prospects.

355

:

And so,

356

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

357

:

Jon Miller: you know, as a result,

you know, marketing has not been or

358

:

incented on really important things

like pipeline acceleration, improving

359

:

sales efficiency, win rates, and all

as well as things like retention.

360

:

And that all has a pretty

significant impact on the business.

361

:

Justin Norris: So I guess in, in

some ways that is a, a good segue

362

:

to the next next phase maybe of,

of go to market in your career.

363

:

And I remember it was, it was

at a, I was at Marketo summit,

364

:

this is where I remember.

365

:

And I remember like, oh, Jon Miller

came out with a new company, GAO.

366

:

And the key line that seemed

to to stick in my brain was

367

:

like, phishing with spears.

368

:

Like, I don't know if it was you

who coined that or you pulled that

369

:

from somewhere, but you obviously

timed that announcement rather well.

370

:

did you land there in ab bm?

371

:

Was a b m already a thing that like,

like you said with Elco, like a category

372

:

that you could say, we're doing this

but doing it better, or was this a

373

:

thing that you net knew, created?

374

:

Jon Miller: Yeah, I mean, a b M was

definitely around a B M probably

375

:

had been around as a concept.

376

:

For at least five years.

377

:

it started, it had been coined by a

consulting group called the I T S M A

378

:

IT Services and Marketing Association to

really, you know, talk about, you know,

379

:

how they were, you know, how companies,

know, and, and, and they were like

380

:

literally focused on, you know, companies

like Accenture that would have a half

381

:

billion dollar a year consulting contract.

382

:

A client, you know, and I mean, clearly

if you have a half billion dollar

383

:

a year contract with an existing

client, nothing about get them to

384

:

download an ebook and become an m p l.

385

:

Makes sense.

386

:

Um, so, so that concept of a B M had

been around for a while at Marketo.

387

:

One of the things that I had

realized that our traditional

388

:

model wasn't working for us.

389

:

You know, was that we, we, we, we

were struggling a little bit to move

390

:

up market into larger enterprises.

391

:

You know, the, the whole write in ebook

and like try to see who downloads it

392

:

model, you know, we were sort of at the

mercy of who happened to come download

393

:

and so at the time we just felt what

I called then and just an outbound

394

:

motion where we sort of tried to find

companies and people we wanted to go

395

:

after and started to go after them.

396

:

And yeah, it was through that internal

practice at Marketo that I started

397

:

using Fishing with Don't care who

responds, just care if you catch enough.

398

:

Versus fishing with spears, kind

of for the main outbound motion.

399

:

When I knew I wanted to leave Marketo

to start another business, you know,

400

:

there are lots of things on my mind.

401

:

You know, I wanted what, something

that seemed like it was an emerging

402

:

idea and that was gonna get traction.

403

:

It did seem.

404

:

That a b m was just starting to get

some, some traction in the marketplace.

405

:

I also knew what my long-term vision was,

you know, which is ultimately, I still

406

:

believe, you know, there's an opportunity

to build a next generation marketing

407

:

platform, and I felt like a b m was a good

path to get to where I, I I wanted to go.

408

:

And if I'm totally candid, the

third thing was good is that there

409

:

was one company that was already in

the market was talking about a B M.

410

:

That had a bit of a reputation

of being a little expensive,

411

:

that company was Demandbase.

412

:

So at the time I thought I could

sort of, you know, all right, hey,

413

:

Demandbase is starting to kind of create

some demand for this idea of a b M.

414

:

Let me come in with a kind, kind

of a better product and a better

415

:

Justin Norris: So re recreating that play.

416

:

I think Terminus was around

as well, weren't they?

417

:

Or there was like a

418

:

Jon Miller: to Marketo, HubSpot,

419

:

Justin Norris: kind of, yeah,

420

:

Jon Miller: started almost exactly the

same time as to the point, at one point

421

:

Sangram and I were like, Hey, maybe

we should just like combine this thing

422

:

and, you know, go, go to town together,

which our boards didn't let us do,

423

:

but it was, you know, very early and

424

:

Justin Norris: F

425

:

Funny how history kind of

rhymes in that way over time.

426

:

And, and yeah.

427

:

And there was the, the,

the flip my funnel thing.

428

:

I can't even remember whose thing that

was, but I remember that was really

429

:

Detached audio: big

430

:

Justin Norris: for a while.

431

:

Jon Miller: was an interesting

piece of coopetition.

432

:

I mean, you know, I, I would say

Marketo versus Elko got nasty at times.

433

:

And I was pretty

determined to a avoid that.

434

:

So even when So we, so we were, we

tried to be as friendly as possible

435

:

with Terminus and, and Demandbase

and the other a b M players, know,

436

:

including when Sangram wanted to do

Flip My Funnel, we sponsored it, know,

437

:

we're like, Hey, you know, let's,

let's build this category together.

438

:

Demandbase was actually an engage

customer for a while, you know?

439

:

And, and that's the other thing

that was going on, you know, in,

440

:

in, in reality, a b M was earlier

than marketing automation was.

441

:

And so each of us were building solutions

around a b m that ended up being not

442

:

as competitive as you would think,

443

:

Justin Norris: That's interesting

444

:

' Jon Miller: cause it was kind of so big.

445

:

Maybe the fast forward

question you didn't ask.

446

:

so that's what you know, let

fast forward to five years later.

447

:

And know, as the market had evolved,

you know, we built something

448

:

pretty interesting at Engagio,

which was sort of almost like

449

:

marketing automation for a B m.

450

:

Demand base was still in the market

with something pretty interesting,

451

:

which was much more top of the funnel.

452

:

know, predictive analytics to find

accounts that were in market, the ability

453

:

to advertise, to attract them to your

website, and then the ability to identify

454

:

them on your website and personalize.

455

:

So in reality there's almost no overlap

between what the two companies were doing.

456

:

But as the category had evolved, what

had become clear is that the winning

457

:

solution, you know, the iPhone of a B

458

:

Detached audio: m,

459

:

Jon Miller: was gonna combine what

we did and what Demandbase did.

460

:

And I had a roadmap that was gonna

take me three years to get there.

461

:

had a roadmap that was gonna take

them three years to get there.

462

:

You know, and then we were, you

know, realized and we had joint

463

:

customers that were using both of us.

464

:

So we realized, and we started having

the conversations like that this

465

:

combination could very well be the

dominant design in the category.

466

:

And that's what led me to sort of

decide to merge the companies together.

467

:

Justin Norris: It just became a kind

of better together sort of situation.

468

:

And now, I mean, in my mind, you guys

in Six Sense are kind of the Coke

469

:

and Pepsi of this of this ecosystem.

470

:

And it feels like in many different

categories where the main vendors

471

:

are, are, are all sort of moving into,

occupying all the different feature

472

:

areas to be as competitive as possible.

473

:

Is that what you see as, as the future's

kinda like two . Big platforms or do

474

:

you think there will continue to be

challengers and point solutions that

475

:

sort of emerge, maybe get bundled

in, maybe become complimentary?

476

:

Jon Miller: No, it's def.

477

:

It's definitely becoming more mature.

478

:

You know, where, where I think we

have coalesced around demand base and

479

:

six sense as the two primary players.

480

:

Even Terminus has very

fallen to the wayside.

481

:

The, the, the dark

horse would be ZoomInfo,

482

:

Justin Norris: Hmm.

483

:

Right.

484

:

Yeah.

485

:

Jon Miller: You know, and, and they,

they've got the resources, I think to

486

:

attempt to challenge, you know, I don't

think the product is there yet, but

487

:

they're certainly gonna keep trying.

488

:

What that really represents is, I

think, an evolution of a B M because

489

:

even as ZoomInfo is trying to get into

a b m, demand base has gotten into data

490

:

Justin Norris: Right.

491

:

Jon Miller: and, you know, we sell

a lot of data now we, we have 130,

492

:

150 million contacts and almost a

hundred million companies, and we sell

493

:

Technographic data and intent data.

494

:

And we have a bunch of customers who

don't even use our software and just

495

:

bought, just use us as a data provider,

which competes against ZoomInfo.

496

:

And so that's how this category

is evolving, is not just about the

497

:

software anymore, it's about the data.

498

:

And, and you'll see there that'll

cause new players to kind of, know,

499

:

enter and, and kind of blur the lines.

500

:

As this quick sidebar, what's, what's

driving the, the, the data demand?

501

:

mean, data's always been

important, but AI in particular

502

:

what's really unlocked that

because great AI needs great data.

503

:

So think ultimately when it comes to

these go-to market platforms, he or

504

:

she who has the best data is gonna win.

505

:

Justin Norris: So kind of riffing on

that point, like my perception of of

506

:

a b m has been like, it's become the

thing that you need to be doing it.

507

:

so from a, from a category point of view,

it has become so dominant that it's like,

508

:

well, you don't, you don't do a, b m,

you're some kind of Tite or something

509

:

who who doesn't know how to do market.

510

:

Or at least if you're, if you're

selling to companies of any size,

511

:

it's something that you need to at

least grapple with at some point.

512

:

In terms of how it's actually

executed, . As a, as a practitioner,

513

:

as a consultant, a, it's, it's hard.

514

:

My perception is that it's hard

to do well and that there aren't

515

:

a ton of people doing it well.

516

:

Now that's a much more limited

perspective, I think, than

517

:

you have, but I'd be curious,

I'd be curious what you see.

518

:

Do you see people running with

it excelling at, I know this is a

519

:

loaded question given your role to

Demandbase, but is, are companies

520

:

succeeding broadly with this model

out in the marketplace, do you think?

521

:

Jon Miller: Many are.

522

:

and I think many struggle.

523

:

I I think you almost have

to, I think, be a little more

524

:

nuanced in the question though.

525

:

And here's what I mean by

that is, is I don't think a b

526

:

m is a black or white thing.

527

:

I think phishing with spears versus

phishing with net set it up too much

528

:

as a dichotomy when in reality it's

better thought as a spectrum, you know?

529

:

And you have on the one end you have

Accenture selling half billion dollar

530

:

deals, And that's your true one-to-one.

531

:

Totally bespoke, you know, a b m.

532

:

And honestly, companies doing

that are seeing wild success.

533

:

And I think they would all say it's

totally worth it, and they would also

534

:

say it's hard to scale, you know?

535

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

536

:

Jon Miller: but a hundred percent, you

know, seeing value and it's worth it.

537

:

Then you have your one to few style

of a b m that's probably appropriate

538

:

for, say, high six figure deals, you

know, half a million a year, and so on.

539

:

And know, typically a company is

going to only have a couple dozen

540

:

accounts that they're really targeting,

kind of, kind of at that level.

541

:

Then you have your one to many, know,

these are your, your low six figure

542

:

high five figure deals, and you might

have a couple hundred of those accounts.

543

:

And then below that you have what

I would just call targeted demand

544

:

generation which is, you know, maybe

not pure net phishing because you

545

:

have specific companies and specific

ones you're going at, but you're using

546

:

less personalized and broader tactics.

547

:

So the

548

:

Justin Norris: it.

549

:

Jon Miller: you know, the purists would

say the only thing that's actually

550

:

a b m is the one-to-one, you know?

551

:

Justin Norris: half

the half billion deals.

552

:

Jon Miller: yeah.

553

:

I, I would say again, it's a

spectrum and it's about using

554

:

the right style of go to market.

555

:

for the kind of business that you happen

to have, and you probably are gonna span

556

:

one or two of those you know, in, in, in,

in your kind of personal go to market.

557

:

So that's where I think, you know,

have fallen down with a b m is trying

558

:

to say it's a binary thing that

I'm tacking on to something else

559

:

that I'm doing as opposed to just.

560

:

I'm gonna have a go-to market that's

appropriate for ideal sizes that might

561

:

involve more of my time and energy on more

valuable accounts because I don't have,

562

:

'cause because my more, my more valuable

accounts are simply worth it, you know?

563

:

And I think if you think about it

that way, it's, it's a lot simpler.

564

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

565

:

Less binary.

566

:

Less reductive.

567

:

Yeah.

568

:

Jon Miller: people are

a lot more successful.

569

:

One to many, like that's

where a lot of companies are.

570

:

I mean, a lot of companies happen to sell

deals between 50 and $250,000 a year.

571

:

And I think that's why we see so

much discussion about a B M and what

572

:

would be considered the one to many.

573

:

And that's where you see

the most use of technology.

574

:

You know, that that can

be hard or it can be easy.

575

:

And what I mean by that is, yeah, you

can do all sorts of things and try to

576

:

create really complicated programs in

one to many, the easy on-ramp where

577

:

companies just happen, I think see success

is just that intersection of intent,

578

:

data, advertising, and sales alerting.

579

:

Just know which accounts have intent,

you know, focus, you know, know,

580

:

have different, have some ads to, to

your target market to try to create

581

:

awareness, other ads to the one's intent

to really kind of drive engagement,

582

:

know, and then when your account,

the accounts are actually in market

583

:

and, or you know, really engaging on

your website, alert sales, you know?

584

:

Is that true?

585

:

A B m?

586

:

No, not.

587

:

But is it effective,

especially in today's buying?

588

:

it is.

589

:

Justin Norris: So kind of a

technology assisted outbound as

590

:

opposed to just dialing from the

phone book or something like that.

591

:

You have

592

:

Jon Miller: Yeah, and I would

say prioritized outbound.

593

:

Justin Norris: prioritized open Do

you think like, as a, as a marketer,

594

:

you know, as we've seen go to go

to market, motions come and go,

595

:

they evolve, they blur together.

596

:

In terms of how you think as a C M

O, do you feel that there are certain

597

:

kind of truths of marketing that

transcend that and that be remain

598

:

eternally relevant, so to speak?

599

:

Whatever category, whatever

type of motion you're doing?

600

:

Are there certain axioms, I guess,

that you live by as a marketer?

601

:

Jon Miller: I mean, I think certain

act truths in marketing, right?

602

:

Is understand your audience and,

you know, make sure that you're

603

:

speaking, you know, to that audience,

know, know what their, what their

604

:

needs are, what their values are.

605

:

Talk more about them than

let and less about yourself.

606

:

You know create value or, you know, before

you ask for anything from, from them.

607

:

Or give value before you ask would

be kind of another way to say it.

608

:

you know, if you try to be something

for everybody, you're gonna end

609

:

up being something for nobody,

610

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

611

:

Jon Miller: know?

612

:

So, dunno, those are some

613

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

614

:

Jon Miller: I think are.

615

:

Justin Norris: And, and, and

you've been a marketer selling

616

:

to marketers for some time.

617

:

Is that like, kind of, how has that

given you an unfair advantage, so

618

:

to speak, in terms of being able

to speak your audience's language?

619

:

Jon Miller: I don't know how I could

be, I don't think I necessarily

620

:

could or would be successful

marketing to another persona.

621

:

Like, I mean these folks who

like market to it all day long.

622

:

More power to you.

623

:

I just, it's that's not, that's.

624

:

I, I have a pa I, I have a passion

around, you know, marketing to

625

:

marketing and sales, you know,

the go-to-market function.

626

:

Justin Norris: I want to take the

lens and focus it a little bit on, on

627

:

marketing operations because it's kind

of the backdrop to this story in a way.

628

:

Is sort of the evolution of marketing

operations as a, as a function.

629

:

And I know when I, I bought my first

instance in:

630

:

It was the last, last day of the year.

631

:

And I got a sweet discount for it, it

was:

632

:

marketing operations person, I was just

a startup marketer and I'm like, I need

633

:

to automate some stuff 'cause I don't

have enough time to do everything.

634

:

And and eventually I, I really loved

the tech and I really loved like, whoa,

635

:

I can do all these cool workflows.

636

:

You know, I'm not a developer,

but I can do some amazing things.

637

:

But a lot of people in the community

were still like, Demand gen.

638

:

It wasn't like I'm a marketing

ops person, I use Marketo.

639

:

It's like I'm a demand gen

marketer and I use marketing.

640

:

I use Marketo, or I use whatever

to to help me in what I'm doing.

641

:

And then somewhere along the way,

you know, three or four or five,

642

:

six years later, there was this

thing of marketing operations.

643

:

And was this, was this a

category in your brain in the

644

:

beginning or when did it emerge?

645

:

If, if not at the beginning

646

:

Jon Miller: I would say

marketing operations.

647

:

It didn't surprise me, but it, it as a,

as the whole thing around it, it kind of,

648

:

you know I, I didn't, I didn't drive it.

649

:

It happened without me.

650

:

is probably the, the

right way to describe it.

651

:

You know, I mean, so I mean, as I, as

I mentioned, we, we had a marketing

652

:

ops person pretty early at Marketo.

653

:

And so I sort of, you know, I saw the

need of this and, and the value of it.

654

:

But I would say the, the fact that it's

become such a discipline, you know, is,

655

:

is, know, that happened I think, you

know, very organically in the industry.

656

:

The other thing I would say I was

probably behind the curve on is the

657

:

drive towards rev ops you know, I,

I have mixed feelings on that one.

658

:

I, I still think it's the right

answer for most companies, and at

659

:

the same time as a C M O, I'm, I'm

so hesitant about giving up ops.

660

:

You know,

661

:

Justin Norris: So let's, I was

gonna go, go there and maybe I'll,

662

:

I'll combine two questions in one.

663

:

'cause one of my questions was, you know,

in the beginning, so in the beginning,

664

:

the backdrop to my question is it's,

it felt to me like Ops was very tech,

665

:

marketing ops was very tech focused,

which wasn't the case with sales ops.

666

:

Sales Ops always had.

667

:

Deal desk and comp plans and territory

planning and other things that

668

:

weren't really technology related.

669

:

But it felt like marketing ops,

at least in the beginning, was

670

:

very technology synonymous,

although that's slowly changing.

671

:

And so I was curious on the

one hand, what do you think

672

:

marketing ops should be today?

673

:

And then part of that answer could

be, should it be part of rev ops?

674

:

Should as a C M O, what are you looking

to operations to provide to you today?

675

:

Maybe the right way of putting it.

676

:

Jon Miller: Yeah.

677

:

Well, I think the first thing we should

sort of think about is separating out

678

:

campaign ops from from from marketing ops.

679

:

You know, the, you know, like, like

campaign ops is I think the one

680

:

that's sort of the most technology

connected, you're running your Marketo,

681

:

somebody's, you know, there's a smart

list, you know, segmentation strategies,

682

:

you know, all that kind of stuff.

683

:

And you know, even if you have a ops

function, I think there's no argument that

684

:

could be said that that campaign ops might

continue to still exist in marketing.

685

:

so back to your more specific question.

686

:

What I want from, from ops, I mean,

I think there's a couple key pillars.

687

:

You know, one is data and just, you know,

how did you make sure that the company

688

:

has access to, you know, clean data,

good data that's organized properly,

689

:

you know, all that kind of good stuff.

690

:

Second is analytics.

691

:

I think third budget.

692

:

Just making sure that like, you know,

we're, you know, as, as a group we're

693

:

entrusted with a certain amount of

budget, you know, that we sort of, you

694

:

know, use it kind of appropriately, you

know, And then I think lastly is kind

695

:

of, you know, technology technology

management potentially beyond kind of

696

:

the, the core campaign ops, if you will.

697

:

The, the reason why I think rev ops is

potentially so, makes so much sense.

698

:

Is you know, let's think about, you

know, a bunch of those pieces, right?

699

:

So, you know, data, I mean, you know,

it, it doesn't make sense that, you know,

700

:

you'd have some, you know, people are

in sales ops thinking about data about

701

:

your accounts, but then different people

thinking about data, about your contacts.

702

:

Justin Norris: All right.

703

:

Jon Miller: I think analytics,

I mean, I've seen this, you

704

:

know, when you, I, I've been in

meetings where you have separate

705

:

marketing ops and sales ops teams.

706

:

Where we're sort of asking a question

and different people are bringing up

707

:

different dashboards that are spent

to answer the same question, right?

708

:

That's what happens when you have, you

know, separate, separate analytics teams

709

:

in the two different ops functions.

710

:

Even things like and planning, you

know, like how did you know setting your

711

:

pipeline targets and your lead targets

versus your sort of bookings targets.

712

:

territory planning, those shouldn't

be two separate processes,

713

:

you know, that should be one.

714

:

Justin Norris: It has to be unified.

715

:

Yeah.

716

:

Jon Miller: But, but, but these

are some of the arguments that I'm

717

:

kind of coming around to on, on

718

:

Justin Norris: But you, you alluded

to, I think a common concern both

719

:

from marketing leaders and from

marketing ops practitioners is that

720

:

rev ops is kind of the, the sales

op ops wolf in sheep's clothing.

721

:

And that if you, you go there, you

end up with marketing ops reporting

722

:

to maybe a C R O or sales leader that

doesn't understand marketing and then.

723

:

Jon Miller: that's a big fat no,

though you know, I mean like when

724

:

we implemented Rev ops, a demand

base, it rolled up to the C C F O.

725

:

Justin Norris: Okay.

726

:

Jon Miller: And both sales.

727

:

Sales gave up, sales ops, marketing

gave up, marketing ops, you know, but

728

:

yeah, rev, rev Ops is not sales ops.

729

:

It should not report up to sales.

730

:

It's either, you know, my favorite

one that I've seen is Workato, where

731

:

they have a chief operations officer,

you know, who reports to the c o.

732

:

But more often than that, more often

than not, I see the operations function

733

:

either reporting to the C F O or a C O O.

734

:

Justin Norris: C o o seems to me

intuitively the most logical, and

735

:

it kind of becomes more neutral,

more like Switzerland, where

736

:

Jon Miller: Not, not

every company has a C O O,

737

:

Justin Norris: yeah.

738

:

To what extent today, let's say, does

ops, like, there's, there's a vision

739

:

of ops where it's more, we own certain

things like we're custodians of, of data

740

:

or of analytics, but we're very much

741

:

In a, in a sort of client service model

where we respond, it's like, I'm your ops.

742

:

Hey Jon, tell me what you wanna achieve.

743

:

I'm gonna help you get there.

744

:

You gimme requirements.

745

:

I'm gonna build it for you,

make sure it works well.

746

:

But I'm not necessarily helping you

define those requirements or that

747

:

strategy or defining what they should be.

748

:

And then I think there's a vision

of ops where it's more like, I'm

749

:

gonna work with you to help, you

know, be that kind of . Copilot, if

750

:

you will, on defining that strategy,

maybe challenging certain things.

751

:

Hey, should we actually

target the segment?

752

:

Or, you know, that that higher

level, let's say higher,

753

:

that other level of thinking.

754

:

Do you see ops functioning in

that way in your experience?

755

:

Should they, is it a helpful thing or not?

756

:

Jon Miller: Yeah, I mean, in a perfect

world, I mean, I think that's what

757

:

All the ops organizations are to

and attempting to do To, to be, be

758

:

a partner in strategy and planning.

759

:

You know, so I, I would ask the question

the other way around, if you're not doing

760

:

that, why and what, what needs to happen?

761

:

Justin Norris: Yeah, those

are gonna be my follow-up.

762

:

Then.

763

:

What do you see as being

some of the obstacles?

764

:

I mean, I have thoughts on it too, but

I'm curious from your point of view,

765

:

like what, what is maybe a good way is

what, what are limiting ops teams today?

766

:

What should they think about

to help elevate themselves?

767

:

Jon Miller: think, do think it's harder

when you have a separate marketing ops

768

:

versus sales ops, you know, so I think

having a strategic rev ops can make that a

769

:

more valuable kind of strategic function.

770

:

The only other limitation

probably just ends up being,

771

:

you know, self-imposed, right?

772

:

I mean, we're all running around so

fast, so hard with so many to-dos on

773

:

our plates, know, that are not just

like nice to haves, but are must-dos.

774

:

Like sometimes for all of us, it

can be hard to kind of step up and

775

:

make the time to be more strategic.

776

:

Justin Norris: I, I think that that would

be where my my guess would be as well.

777

:

In terms of the biggest issues,

I think for so long, marketing

778

:

ops has dealt with like barrage

of requests and fielding things.

779

:

And when you do that for a

while, you're just like, tell

780

:

me, you know, give me your specs.

781

:

I'll build it for you.

782

:

I'll do what you need.

783

:

But you have very, like you said,

very little time to think about well

784

:

what should we actually be doing?

785

:

And, and feeling like you have

the space to, to challenge that.

786

:

Maybe the, the good question to end

on then perhaps would be what's next.

787

:

do you see Do you see a b m as

kind of being like, this is the,

788

:

this is sort of the right motion.

789

:

We're just gonna continue to evolve here.

790

:

Do there's product led, there's

near bound, there's always like

791

:

another thing that's coming.

792

:

Do you see G T M continuing

to evolve in that way?

793

:

Or what?

794

:

What do you kind of see

coming around the corner?

795

:

Jon Miller: I mean, I think it kind

of goes back to, you know, that

796

:

these things aren't black and white.

797

:

You know, and that ultimately, I think

we all have a go to market and, you

798

:

know, each company's go to market

will sort of probably, you know, be

799

:

slightly nuanced based on its customers.

800

:

Its average deal size.

801

:

I think to a degree its uniqueness and

differentiation in the marketplace.

802

:

Its level of product market fit, you

know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

803

:

I think, you know, the biggest

difference between traditional demand

804

:

gen and a B M really historically was

the focus on leads versus accounts.

805

:

You know, I think no matter what

your go-to market is in B two B,

806

:

we're going to increasingly see the

conversation landing on buying groups.

807

:

It's not leads, it's not accounts,

it's buying groups, you know you

808

:

know, than leads, smaller than

809

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm

810

:

Jon Miller: if you will.

811

:

You know, I think the big disruption

we're all sort of waiting to

812

:

really understand is gonna be

what does AI bring to the table?

813

:

You know, and, and the reality

is that you af remember AI's been

814

:

around and go to market for a while.

815

:

I mean, everything demand-based

does with predictive analytics

816

:

Justin Norris: Right.

817

:

Jon Miller: data.

818

:

Even our ad bidding is AI powered.

819

:

But the new stuff is the generative ai.

820

:

You know, I, I think.

821

:

We will at some point see

generative ai, creating customer

822

:

communication, personalized customer,

comma, lemme try that one again.

823

:

Personalized customer

communications at scale.

824

:

But in some ways I don't even think

that's where like I'm less excited

825

:

that than I am about will we see

new user interfaces for the tools?

826

:

You know, interesting implications

for ops professionals.

827

:

What happens when you don't need

to know how to build a Marketo

828

:

smart list you can just type, oh,

I want this in English language.

829

:

You know, gimme a list of all the people

who've done this and not this and live

830

:

in this area and blah, blah, blah.

831

:

Justin Norris: Yeah,

832

:

Jon Miller: that the AI kind of creates

that for you, and then you can chat with

833

:

it and say, oh, you know, reduce that

by, you know, 10% by adding this filter.

834

:

And it does that, you

know, so, so I, I think

835

:

Justin Norris: I.

836

:

Jon Miller: will see an

evolution on the technology side.

837

:

Perhaps driven by.

838

:

Different kinds of user interfaces.

839

:

Justin Norris: I agree with you.

840

:

I think the things that are like

efficiency plays or things that are

841

:

programmatic or, you know, translating

complex technical activities into

842

:

more verbal instructions seems

tailor made for what AI can do.

843

:

For the generative part, I, I still remain

skeptical that a language model will

844

:

create, you know, a definitive guide that

has the original insight that, you know.

845

:

Like, like it could take your definitive

guide and create a new one, but could

846

:

it create the first one, will it

create the novel thing that people

847

:

are excited about and want to read?

848

:

It's, it's hard to imagine.

849

:

Jon Miller: But, but, but, but, but

will we see, you know, right now, like

850

:

when you do an email blast inviting

10,000 people to a webinar and

851

:

everybody gets the same email, right?

852

:

And will we see a world where,

you know what, your email is maybe

853

:

slightly different from mine because

we're slightly different people, you

854

:

know, that I could see happening.

855

:

Justin Norris: Hmm.

856

:

Based around like verticalization

or prior activity or

857

:

Jon Miller: Yes, yes,

858

:

Justin Norris: nice, nice

weather up in you know,

859

:

Banff.

860

:

Jon Miller: I mean, maybe, maybe, but,

but probably less that and more just,

861

:

you know, title industry persona,

862

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

863

:

Jon Miller: activity.

864

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

865

:

Well, we'll be watching

eagerly to see what happens.

866

:

Jon, thank you for everything you've done.

867

:

You've been a big part of my career

in terms of what you've built with

868

:

Marketo and, and what's given me so

appreciative of that, and appreciative

869

:

of you taking the time to speak today.

870

:

It's been super interesting.

871

:

Jon Miller: Fun stuff to talk about.

872

:

Thanks for the questions.

873

:

Justin Norris: All right.

874

:

All the best, Jon.

875

:

See you.

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About the Podcast

RevOps FM
Thinking out loud about RevOps and go-to-market strategy.
This podcast is your weekly masterclass on becoming a better revenue operator. We challenge conventional wisdom and dig into what actually works for building predictable revenue at scale.

For show notes and extra resources, visit https://revops.fm/show

Key topics include: marketing technology, sales technology, marketing operations, sales operations, process optimization, team structure, planning, reporting, forecasting, workflow automation, and GTM strategy.

About your host

Profile picture for Justin Norris

Justin Norris

Justin has over 15 years as a marketing, operations, and GTM professional.

He's worked almost exclusively at startups, including a successful exit. As an operations consultant, he's been a trusted partner to numerous SaaS "unicorns" and Fortune 500s.