Operations at Enterprise Scale - Paul Wilson

Justin Norris: 00:00:16

We all know that ops is hard in a company of any size,

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but in the biggest enterprises,

there's some special challenges.

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First off, there's more of everything.

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There's more people.

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Process, technology projects

are more complicated.

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Communication takes more time.

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. And so the question I wanted to ask

today is, what does it actually take

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to succeed as an ops leader in some

of these crazy complex environments?

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Today's guest is the great Paul Wilson.

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Today he is the CEO of GTM Systems, which

is an agency focused on GTM operations.

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But before that You've been a marketing

ops executive at a dream resume of

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companies, Marketo, Adobe, slack,

Salesforce, I have to think you real

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high point for you was probably when

you got to work with me at Perkuto.

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Am I right?

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You can.

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You could, yeah.

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Paul Wilson: absolutely

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Justin Norris: have to say that.

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really I just wanna

welcome you to the show.

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Thank you for being here

great to speak with you.

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Paul Wilson: Oh, it's, it's an honor.

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you.

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and I have a long history of and

coffee and discussions off topic,

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so this is gonna be awesome.

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Justin Norris: I listed a bunch of

things that you, that you've done,

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and it wasn't even, you half of it.

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you've been a consultant, you've been

in-house, you've been big, small, you

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now are starting an entrepreneurial

journey, running your own shop.

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I'm just curious, What type of

work have you found so far has

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been the most rewarding for you?

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Paul Wilson: the work that's the most

enjoyable and the work that kind of

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drives me forward is, the human factors,

the solving challenges with people parts.

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So it isn't a specific technology

isn't a specific data challenge or

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getting integrations to, to run.

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Those are the endorphin

rushes of what systems can do.

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When you finally see a green light from

the red light, that's always great.

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Justin Norris: I know that feeling.

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Paul Wilson: the, the real factor me

has always been in, in pretty much

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every role that I've done, either with

technology or in other parts of the world.

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It's the human factors of working with

others to solve problems that are.

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or challenges that are really in the way.

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Justin Norris: So when you, when you

talk about those people factors, do you

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mean, working with those other people

kind of ops field or collaborating

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with your stakeholders other teams

where you need to, you know, with

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sales or in marketing or whatever.

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Or is it both?

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Paul Wilson: Yeah, it's definitely a blend

of both because you know, when there are,

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when there are challenges to address,

like, let's think about if, if we put it

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in the context of an example, if you're

working on a migration, the connective

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tissue that the team doing, the work I.

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Has, and that work

needs to be coordinated.

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And, and, and the work needs to flow.

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And when those people work

well together, it's enjoyable.

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You know, even if the challenges

themselves are almost insurmountable.

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The comradery and the

connection is important.

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And then in terms of that stakeholder

alignment you know, being a, a people

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pleaser, I've often, you know, it,

it is a very good feeling to feel

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as if you're solving a challenge

that your customer, internal or

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otherwise is looking to see solved.

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So again, that is a partnership to

me, is ensuring that, you know, the.

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teams doing the work, the teams leading,

the organizational change, sort of

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all of the layers are the same canoe,

paddling in the same direction, really

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trying to pull that problem forward.

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And those are those moments that

I feel really most energized and

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like I, I want to do that work.

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Justin Norris: let's unpack

that a little bit more.

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Like had a number of

experiences where you've.

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stepped into a pretty big role at

some of these places and with a

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pretty big mandate, I know, to migrate

huge systems or, integrate acquired

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companies how do you start that process?

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Because the beginning, you're coming in

and you don't have those relationships.

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How do you kind of map out an organization

and set yourself up for success?

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'

Paul Wilson: to me the first most important investigation

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to do in the roles that I have

moved into has been establishing.

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What I believe the mandate of the

role needs to be comparing that

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and pushing around to find out what

is the organization's expectation

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of the mandate of the role.

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So if

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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Paul Wilson: in and I believe that

order to accomplish The operational

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goal set in front of me, like migrate

three systems into one big new system.

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If I believe that the mandate entails

spending dollars, removing people and

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hiring people, I need to be very clear

that that's what I need to deliver the

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magic of making three things turn into

one, and I push and test that with

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the organization that I'm in to say.

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Are you gonna be comfortable

giving me these things?

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Not just with me asking for them.

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Like, will you be

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Justin Norris: Hmm.

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Paul Wilson: to empower me?

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And if the answer is no, it

isn't necessarily that you throw

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up your hands and you leave.

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It's that, okay, well, I.

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What do I have?

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Like what are, what are

the edges of that mandate?

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Because in order to help work with

others and to be a part of a team that's

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running that transformation, I need to

be able to provide the information to

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the team I'm working with that says, I.

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Yeah, we're not gonna be able

to hire an agency or we will

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be able to hire, like all

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Justin Norris: Hmm.

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Paul Wilson: the parameters need

to be clear when you're looking to

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embark on a transformational change,

you don't want to over commit.

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And I've been in the, in circumstances

where, you know, unfortunately the rules

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change or budgets move and whatnot.

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And so you need to know what the impact

is of that on the mandate that you have.

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So

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Justin Norris: How do you consider, how

do you define the role of marketing ops?

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If what would be in scope and out

of scope from your point of view?

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Paul Wilson: Great question.

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You said that's a, a one hour podcast.

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At its core, one of the, easiest

places to see the practical difference

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between marketing ops and sales ops

is in the simple experience that.

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A lot of us have where you're in a

discussion with the team that's working

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in Salesforce and they talk about the

notions of making changes in sandbox

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and promoting them to production.

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That is not the way

marketing operations works.

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That's not the way that the systems

had been established in the market.

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It'd be great if they did, but they

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: And so what I've

tried to explain to people in sales

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operations before so that they kind

of get the, the picture that it

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isn't just that simple foundational

difference of having a sandbox or not.

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that imagine if the

seller's using Salesforce.

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You are working in their live production

instance of are unable to send an email to

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a prospect delivering them a quote because

of something that's happened or changed

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in the environment, and they're on you

right there telling you to get it fixed or

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requesting that these fields get created

or making this change on the fly and.

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The operational distinction of working

in a live environment that marketers

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are always trying to do things in

means the discipline of control and

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change management and everything

related to how marketing operations

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has to function, needs to provide

the diligence that sales operations.

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Enjoys and having a sandbox in a

production environment without the

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latitude of time, because generally

speaking, there isn't a dependency of.

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What Sales Ops does in Salesforce

to the day-to-day production

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of a sales organization.

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They can still send an email.

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They can pick up the phone, they can

reach out on Slack or LinkedIn or whatever

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it is, and communicate and send things.

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Salesforce isn't the dependent

platform for that occur.

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Marketing.

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The technologies that we work in are

the live environment that deliver

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everything that marketers do.

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so we have a much higher degree of risk.

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We have a much higher degree of

responsibility, and I think that

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where there's challenges is when Have

an expectation that they can just

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request a change and it will happen

without understanding the degree of the

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: interconnectedness of

things the risks that can occur on

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a platform that isn't necessarily

as stable as they may think.

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It's so understanding scope,

understanding all of these things.

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Our internal customers not

understanding what it is that we do.

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Like all of these challenges pile onto the

fact that we're in a, a live production

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environment a hundred percent of the time.

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Justin Norris: But, but why?

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Like, why can't we have a functioning

sand, like marketing automation's

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been around for 15 years?

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Have they not figured this out yet?

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I know that's not, I don't blame you for

it, but why do you ha, could you hazard

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a guess why we can't have nice things?

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Paul Wilson: I, I would hazard the

guess being that the tenuous connection

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in finance's, definition of Marketing

to revenue means that dollars in that

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area of comfort as critical as spending

dollars to make sure that the opportunity

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object in Salesforce never breaks.

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So it it's the cultural notion that I.

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Which needs to go away, honestly,

like go to market is, is everything.

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It's everything from the anonymous

web visit through to the renewal.

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I think establishing a paradigm

that says all of these systems

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are as equally critical in a world

that's pure, almost pure digital.

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So digital experiences are all

experiences be they marketing, sales,

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or customer success experiences.

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So don't get to have fancy things because.

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The history of 15 years has been,

you didn't really need them, did you?

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I mean, You said you did, but

here we are You're doing fine,

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Justin Norris: You are doing it.

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Paul Wilson: You're doing it.

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So we enabled the pain that we're

suffering in today, which Is what being

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in marketing operations is all about.

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Justin Norris: Is less proximity to it.

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A factor , was C R more

it adjacent somehow?

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And so the expectation of proper

environments was there and maybe

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marketing was like, well, they're

just out on the fringes with their

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brochures and their trade shows.

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They could do.

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Paul Wilson: Yeah.

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The, that, that lineage.

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And we're definitely dating

ourselves in having conversations

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of our brochures and whatnot.

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But I think that the, the proximity

to it and the transformation

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that I have seen happen in.

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The enterprise space over

the last, you know, five, to

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seven years is we've seen the.

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The distinction between technology and

operations, you can, I, I now see in

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many organizations where the technology

is considered the property of it.

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Where Salesforce or the c r m is

owned by the IT organization, they

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extend their ITIL methodology on,

you know, you make a request, it gets

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processed, it gets put into a sprint,

it goes through a, a, a mechanism, the

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enterprise organizations have adapted

to that rhythm within sales operations.

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Where know that there will

be another sprint, there will

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be a change that happens.

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The operations teams working in

Salesforce that run the deal desk,

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that use, you know, manage cases that

facilitate the usage by sales and by

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customer support and customer success.

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All of those teams are foundationally

aware that now Salesforce has been

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absorbed into this diligent world of it.

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Marketing technology is still a bit of

a mystery, so there are organizations

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who've attempted to put Marketo and

other marketing automation platforms into

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the IT regime, and I've been adjacent

to and present in the conversations

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Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: IT executives saying, What

do you mean you don't have a sandbox?

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Like there's still just a gap of

understanding and appreciation of

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what that livestock environment

feels like from an operations lens.

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So there will probably be adaptations

that come from vendors like

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Salesforce and Adobe and HubSpot.

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as they try to push farther into those

enterprise organizations where the

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ability and the capability to have full

live environment sandboxes is easier.

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But the reality is, the expectation

of our clients in marketing but

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the email needs to go out tomorrow.

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It has to, it just has to

like, so there's this difficult

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tension that we, that we live in.

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Justin Norris: I experienced

that tension at times.

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Paul Wilson: We all, we all,

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Justin Norris: you, we,

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Paul Wilson: that

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Justin Norris: we live, we we swim

in that tension, this actually to a

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place where I wanted to go, which is I.

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When I started for a long time in

in marketing ops marketing ops,

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marketing automation, marketing

technology, they were almost synonyms.

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I don't think it's ever been that

way in, in sales ops, like you

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alluded to a lot of the sales ops.

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Functions and responsibilities.

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Deal desk comp planning,

territory planning, you know,

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supporting sales leaders.

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Much more of like a, a go to market.

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And strategic, sometimes C B Q.

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Yeah, and, and, and like my own

organization, we have a sales ops team.

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We have a Salesforce team, which kind

of rolls into sales ops but is distinct.

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And then sales ops is more . Sales

process improving our methodology.

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And that distinction , it doesn't

exist with the same level of clarity

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I find in marketing operations.

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I think a lot of practitioners

are still system admins

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primarily, first and foremost.

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Some teams have those other functions,

but . I don't see it in the same way.

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And so I guess I'm curious,

do you think that just doesn't

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exist 'cause it's not needed?

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Or is it, is that where it's

going and it's just like a

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maturation of this function?

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Where, where does it go?

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Paul Wilson: I think it is, it's

largely related to the developmental

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maturity of the organization

that you're, that you're looking

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Justin Norris: I.

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Paul Wilson: So I think that the

landing marketing technology, inside

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marketing spend and marketing process.

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Means in most organizations there

isn't an respect is such a dangerous

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word to say here, but there isn't

an existing appreciation for the

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need for for infrastructure, you

know, the, the, elements of control.

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And so in that marketing operations

world, Almost everybody's an admin because

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almost anybody is gonna be called on to

solve an, solve an immediate problem.

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And I.

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think that the organizations who mature

past that point are a little less

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agile from the marketer's perspective.

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But a little bit more consistent

from the experience and the proper,

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respective privacy and compliance rules,

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the

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: handling of data, like all

of the foundational concerns that I think

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are gonna become much more prevalent.

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Justin Norris: angle into the same

thing might be , to what extent

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should marketing operations influence

or help define marketing strategy?

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Sometimes you see people with titles

like director of Strategy and Operations

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where, because there's a difference

between like,, we need to climb this

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mountain, help us figure out how to

do it and make sure we do it in an

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efficient way, and that it gets done.

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And marketing ops doesn't really

ask like, should we climb this?

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Is this the right mountain?

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Is it a good idea

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Paul Wilson: right.

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Justin Norris: the right time of year?

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Versus let's figure out which mountain

to climb, or if we, maybe we should, you

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know, go for a swim instead or whatever.

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And and then figure out also how to do it.

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Paul Wilson: I love that analogy actually.

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So mountain climbing is one that,

you know actually just a little

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earlier today, I was in conversation

and, and mountains were the topic.

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Because you know, if you think

about the idea that if you are

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a marketer and you tell me.

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And I'm in operations that,

know, the goal to climb.

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You know, the three sisters in Alberta,

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: that's the goal.

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There's so many dimensions that from

an operations perspective come to bear

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on how, how does that get addressed?

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So you know, it could be that you would

like to, you know, you would like for

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marketing to be able to achieve the,

the task of climbing those mountains.

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And there's three of them.

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And so you've asked

for this and we are in.

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You know, we're in Toronto and

so marketing operations people

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are gonna be like, okay, well,

so we need to get to Alberta.

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We

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: out where we

could get the climbing gear.

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We need to be able to, and you're,

you're telling me that I need to do that.

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I've got $18 to spend.

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So from an operations perspective,

the ability to, like, there's so

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many dimensions that come to mind and

you know, so there's that marketing

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operations organization that has

the $18 three people, and they

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need to get marketing to the top of

three different mounds in Alberta.

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Justin Norris: I'm gonna MacGyver it.

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Paul Wilson: the marketing, then there's

the, the marketing operations team that

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is like, well, we can get in the corporate

helicopter and I can drop you there.

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And so they have all of the

capability, they have all the capacity.

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And that's when the marketing team

says, well, no, it's not about getting

313

: 00:18:25

to the top of the mountains, it's

about climbing them and going up.

314

: 00:18:30

Oh yeah.

315

: 00:18:30

But we, we, we just, we will drop

you from the helicopter on the top of

316

: 00:18:34

the mountain, and that's what we do.

317

: 00:18:35

And so the operations discussion.

318

: 00:18:39

Long way to get to your point.

319

: 00:18:42

I believe that campaign engineering

needs to be a function and it's a missed

320

: 00:18:48

function in all marketing planning and

the capacity of having a campaign engineer

321

: 00:18:54

connecting the abilities of data and

systems and processes deliver on the

322

: 00:18:59

promises that marketing is looking for.

323

: 00:19:02

That gap caused a lot of issues and a lot

of challenges in our space, and it's a

324

: 00:19:08

very important and missing process for.

325

: 00:19:10

Most marketing organizations have

that voice at the table to say that

326

: 00:19:16

fancy campaign you plan to to do next

fiscal year leveraging generative ai

327

: 00:19:22

because you heard about it on LinkedIn.

328

: 00:19:25

We don't have the data.

329

: 00:19:26

All of the systems you're

talking about don't integrate.

330

: 00:19:29

Today, I'm supposed to reduce

our technology spend by 15%.

331

: 00:19:33

How exactly do you want me to accomplish?

332

: 00:19:36

The mechanics of you delivering this

magical experience that you think

333

: 00:19:40

you can deliver as a marketer, we

need to be in the room all the time.

334

: 00:19:43

Justin Norris: So campaign

engineering, it's an interesting term.

335

: 00:19:46

Maybe the first time , I've heard

it, and like typically we talk about

336

: 00:19:50

campaign operations, which to me is

more like, we need to run a webinar.

337

: 00:19:53

All right, we're gonna do bing, bang,

boom, and we're gonna do our thing.

338

: 00:19:55

This, this is much more of , you

are there in the room, , advising on

339

: 00:20:01

The feasibility potential implications

as the, the strategy is being defined.

340

: 00:20:07

Is that what you mean?

341

: 00:20:09

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

342

: 00:20:09

So the, the role of a campaign architect

or a campaign engineer is a marketing

343

: 00:20:17

campaign runs on so many different

fronts now, and the digital experience

344

: 00:20:23

of that campaign is so critical.

345

: 00:20:25

I.

346

: 00:20:26

That marketers can imagine what they

want that digital experience to be.

347

: 00:20:30

They wanna be able to curate

that experience, and the reality

348

: 00:20:34

is to deliver that experience.

349

: 00:20:37

There's data, there's systems,

there's process, there's everything

350

: 00:20:40

that needs to happen underneath.

351

: 00:20:42

And that can campaign architect

or engineers, the person

352

: 00:20:45

who's in the room saying.

353

: 00:20:49

We, we, we can do that, but we

don't have a system today like

354

: 00:20:55

qualified that integrates the chat

experience rate into Salesforce.

355

: 00:20:59

So, we'll, we'll need, we'll,

we'll need to get something on the

356

: 00:21:02

roadmap do some investigations.

357

: 00:21:04

Do you have the budget?

358

: 00:21:05

And so we now call all the way back

full circle the idea of mandate.

359

: 00:21:09

So even a campaign has to have a mandate.

360

: 00:21:12

So what is the spend?

361

: 00:21:14

What's the number of resources that can

be applied and the campaign architect or

362

: 00:21:19

engineers, the person in the room at the

experience that is expected and trying to

363

: 00:21:25

align it to what is possible or what needs

to be invested in to get to that possible.

364

: 00:21:31

So operations as a discipline is

working within the current capabilities.

365

: 00:21:37

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

366

: 00:21:38

Paul Wilson: operating them, running

that, doing the work, delivering the

367

: 00:21:42

assets into the market, supporting

the data flow, everything that

368

: 00:21:46

happens within the known universe.

369

: 00:21:49

And then the campaign architect

or campaign engineer, I.

370

: 00:21:52

Needs to be in the room because

marketers don't know when they're

371

: 00:21:55

at the edge of that universe.

372

: 00:21:57

So they may think, well, yeah, we're,

it's just a, a new set of nurture emails.

373

: 00:22:02

Surely we can do that.

374

: 00:22:03

But what if that new set of nurture,

nurture emails is dependent on a

375

: 00:22:06

piece of product telemetry that

isn't currently getting into the

376

: 00:22:10

mar marketing infrastructure?

377

: 00:22:12

All of a sudden there's an engineering

effort or an architectural effort that

378

: 00:22:15

needs to be deployed because it isn't

just a matter of a few different emails

379

: 00:22:20

that are being sent in a nurture cadence.

380

: 00:22:22

a different picture, so operations or

technology people need to be present

381

: 00:22:28

in almost every new imaginative

conversation that marketing is driving.

382

: 00:22:34

Justin Norris: You know what I'm

envisioning as you're talking I

383

: 00:22:36

always like to use physical building

me metaphors, but it's, it's kinda

384

: 00:22:39

like having an engineer, a structural

engineer, a civil engineer in the room.

385

: 00:22:42

I.

386

: 00:22:43

To advise on , you're building this

massive skyscraper or this fancy bridge

387

: 00:22:46

and like, can this actually stand up?

388

: 00:22:49

Will it obey the laws of physics

389

: 00:22:50

Detached audio: and.

390

: 00:22:51

Paul Wilson: that's a, that's a great

analogy because, you know, it's,

391

: 00:22:54

it's, it's wonderful that a tenant

in the building up on the 78th floor

392

: 00:22:59

and they're looking at the beautiful

vistas that this room has, and they're

393

: 00:23:02

thinking, this is, this is amazing.

394

: 00:23:06

I would like my kitchen to be right here.

395

: 00:23:08

and the engineer is the person that's

in the room going, okay, we're 78

396

: 00:23:12

floors up and there is no plumbing

on this side of the building.

397

: 00:23:16

How, how are we gonna, how?

398

: 00:23:18

Yeah, it'd be a great spot

for your kitchen, but the

399

: 00:23:22

infrastructure's not there.

400

: 00:23:23

We can get it there.

401

: 00:23:24

Do you have four and.

402

: 00:23:25

a half million dollars to put

your kitchen in this space?

403

: 00:23:28

Yes or no?

404

: 00:23:30

Justin Norris: Yeah, anything

is possible with time and money,

405

: 00:23:33

but is it, is it worth it?

406

: 00:23:34

I think in some ways, a lot of what

you're describing there is the enterprise

407

: 00:23:38

perspective kind of infused into it.

408

: 00:23:40

And I, I wanna address this a

little more explicitly because me

409

: 00:23:45

and Mike, my daily reality at a 400

person company is, is, is different.

410

: 00:23:49

And so I, and I know you've

experienced both sides.

411

: 00:23:51

So Let's say I was going to, to,

to leave my my job tomorrow and go

412

: 00:23:56

work at a 10,000 person company.

413

: 00:23:58

What should I expect to be different?

414

: 00:24:00

Not, I'm not doing that.

415

: 00:24:01

I'm just the hypothetical.

416

: 00:24:02

For some, the hypothetical listener

who is contemplating that change, what

417

: 00:24:06

kind of shock to the system should they

expect moving into that environment?

418

: 00:24:10

Paul Wilson: Did you just

resign on your podcast?

419

: 00:24:13

I mean,

420

: 00:24:14

Justin Norris: we can edit this out later.

421

: 00:24:15

Can't no.

422

: 00:24:17

Paul Wilson: I, that it's really,

it's, that's a difficult question

423

: 00:24:20

to answer because I have seen a, a

range of Agility in the enterprise

424

: 00:24:28

space there are many dimensions.

425

: 00:24:29

Is it centralized or decentralized?

426

: 00:24:32

Do they have operational maturity

or they do not, are they a

427

: 00:24:38

process and systems heavy.

428

: 00:24:41

Operational organization.

429

: 00:24:43

So know, the experience of

working in a 37 year old software

430

: 00:24:47

company demonstrated that that

431

: 00:24:50

Justin Norris: Hmm.

432

: 00:24:52

Paul Wilson: has processed, they

have ways that things happen.

433

: 00:24:55

They, they don't move quickly.

434

: 00:24:58

So if you're moving from a 400 person

to a 10,000 person company, you need

435

: 00:25:03

to understand some of the cultural

operational factors to know, okay.

436

: 00:25:10

You may wanna show up and, and be scrappy

and do things your own way and, and

437

: 00:25:15

break the mold and do things different,

438

: 00:25:17

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

439

: 00:25:17

Paul Wilson: and immediately find out that

there is no mandate for you to do that.

440

: 00:25:25

So in the shift, it's a

matter of establishing the

441

: 00:25:30

relationships with navigators.

442

: 00:25:32

Inside that organization who can teach

you about the operational culture of

443

: 00:25:37

the organization, they can provide

you with the guidance so that you

444

: 00:25:41

become literate in accomplishing the

things that you want to accomplish.

445

: 00:25:46

And in other enterprise

organizations, they have operational

446

: 00:25:54

structure, can be very Empowering.

447

: 00:25:59

But the challenge then becomes you

find out that there are Not only are

448

: 00:26:04

you, you know, you're the new Chief

Cook in the kitchen, but you also find

449

: 00:26:09

out that there are 37 other kitchens.

450

: 00:26:11

So there's a bunch of other people doing

things in a bunch of different ways, and

451

: 00:26:16

the brand experience is very fragmented.

452

: 00:26:20

The ability of you to influence and

change things across the board is

453

: 00:26:24

very limited, you might be able to.

454

: 00:26:27

Be in a 10,000 person organization

and do things however you want, but in

455

: 00:26:33

essence, you're, you're on an island.

456

: 00:26:35

Justin Norris: So, although I

have not had the experience

457

: 00:26:37

of working for a company that

size, I have consulted for them.

458

: 00:26:39

I've been embedded inside them.

459

: 00:26:41

And my observation there is and this

would be one of the more, you know,

460

: 00:26:45

process oriented ones that you described,

let's say, and my observation was the,

461

: 00:26:51

the work becomes so much more meta.

462

: 00:26:53

Like, you're not saying, all right,

we wanna do this thing, let's do it.

463

: 00:26:56

It's let's have a meeting to create the

deck, to pitch the boss's boss on building

464

: 00:27:01

a plan for then creating a mandate to do

this thing maybe in Q three of next year.

465

: 00:27:08

And and that can be hard.

466

: 00:27:10

Like, like there's this a completely

different skillset, like you said,

467

: 00:27:13

to navigating that process and

understanding these are the buttons

468

: 00:27:17

you push to get things done here.

469

: 00:27:20

does it great, I suppose ever, does

it ever feel hard to, to do that?

470

: 00:27:24

Or is it just like, Nope, this is

actually, this is how this game

471

: 00:27:27

is played and I enjoy moving

through these systems and achieving

472

: 00:27:30

things within this framework.

473

: 00:27:32

Paul Wilson: I think you probably know me

well enough to know that I don't run on

474

: 00:27:36

PowerPoint so I do find that challenging.

475

: 00:27:39

and I have , in , the experience

of my career, can do that.

476

: 00:27:44

It's not the way I, I like to work.

477

: 00:27:46

But it just becomes What you are

looking for in your experience?

478

: 00:27:50

So the ability work at enterprise

scale is a different skillset.

479

: 00:27:56

The skillset that I feel I learned

apart from PowerPoint skills was the

480

: 00:28:02

ability to communicate of effort, that

is something that isn't necessarily as

481

: 00:28:11

significant in smaller organizations.

482

: 00:28:14

But it me look a little differently at

the work and effort of what marketing

483

: 00:28:21

operations and marketing technology

can achieve because the contribution

484

: 00:28:28

of putting emails in market faster, the

contribution of cleaner data, all of these

485

: 00:28:36

elements are very difficult to enunciate.

486

: 00:28:41

Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

487

: 00:28:41

Paul Wilson: Until you've had to

really push and and think about what

488

: 00:28:46

the upstream message needs to be.

489

: 00:28:49

That says at the C level, the messaging

is the brand will be stronger.

490

: 00:28:57

At the SS v P level, the

messaging is we will be different.

491

: 00:29:03

That difference makes the brand stronger.

492

: 00:29:06

The messaging at the director level is

operational discipline that we need in

493

: 00:29:11

order to be able to deliver a better

experience that makes the brand stronger

494

: 00:29:16

at the senior manager level, it's.

495

: 00:29:19

That stuff that has been a pain for

us to manage and deal with for years

496

: 00:29:24

now be funded it'll make the brand

experience more, experience more.

497

: 00:29:30

You like it.

498

: 00:29:31

It's the cascade all the way down the

chain of what the impact bubbles up to and

499

: 00:29:37

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

500

: 00:29:37

Paul Wilson: at that enterprise scale

is informative And it's helpful to

501

: 00:29:41

really understand how to deliver

the message that matters to the

502

: 00:29:45

people at the level that they're at.

503

: 00:29:48

Justin Norris: And that's an amazing

skill, what you just described in what

504

: 00:29:51

you just kind of modeled in real time.

505

: 00:29:54

To me that is, A, a significant

differentiator between maybe a very

506

: 00:30:00

talented technician or technologist,

you know, systems integrator.

507

: 00:30:05

Even someone who's very good with

process, but they don't necessarily

508

: 00:30:07

know how to maneuver within a complex

organization and address the concerns

509

: 00:30:13

of all those different stakeholders.

510

: 00:30:15

did you just develop that

organically through hard knocks?

511

: 00:30:18

I mean, always , been a very good

communicator even since the days that

512

: 00:30:21

we've worked together, but , was that just

experience teaching you how to do that?

513

: 00:30:26

Paul Wilson: It.

514

: 00:30:26

It is and and it's through

a series of mistakes really.

515

: 00:30:31

And I think that the.

516

: 00:30:34

The harsh reality of what

marketing operations and technology

517

: 00:30:37

professionals live in is the, the

lack of an interconnectedness of

518

: 00:30:45

what matters, being messaged all

the way up and down the chain.

519

: 00:30:48

So if you're in an organization

and the C M O is a, I don't wanna

520

: 00:30:56

worry about technology type leader.

521

: 00:30:59

And you're a technician

and your messaging that?

522

: 00:31:02

you're trying to communicate

up is all about technology and

523

: 00:31:05

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

524

: 00:31:07

Paul Wilson: By the time it gets to

the person who has budget to spend

525

: 00:31:10

and who can help solve problems, if

all that they're hearing about is

526

: 00:31:14

technology and data problems and they

don't wanna understand that, or they

527

: 00:31:18

don't want to embrace solving that the.

528

: 00:31:23

The ceiling you're bumping into

is the, well, that's what we're

529

: 00:31:26

paying you to do, type ceiling

530

: 00:31:28

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

531

: 00:31:29

Paul Wilson: communicating the value

and, and connecting with the outcome

532

: 00:31:33

that someone is looking to or someone

is able to or wants to process.

533

: 00:31:39

Is the skillset that I think

is, is very, very important.

534

: 00:31:42

And that would be if you're in an

environment where the C F O doesn't

535

: 00:31:46

wanna think about or doesn't wanna

understand that, that that's not

536

: 00:31:49

their, that's not where their head's at

their head is at innovating the brand.

537

: 00:31:54

you connect the message to say,

ability to innovate the brand is

538

: 00:31:59

negatively impacted if we can't send

personalized communications at scale.

539

: 00:32:03

Right.

540

: 00:32:04

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

541

: 00:32:05

Paul Wilson: And the C M O will say,

well, yeah, I mean, I can't do a b M

542

: 00:32:07

if I can't do good personalization.

543

: 00:32:10

Okay, we can solve that problem.

544

: 00:32:13

It's gonna take some dollars.

545

: 00:32:14

Can you gimme the dollars

to solve that problem?

546

: 00:32:16

Is the conversation you

have with that C M O?

547

: 00:32:19

Not we need to go into the market, put

out an R F P, figure out which vendors are

548

: 00:32:25

going to be able to do an analysis that

establishes the data quality score of the

549

: 00:32:31

dataset that we got from this acquired

You might know all of that minutiae, but

550

: 00:32:38

what you communicate and what you get

actions, decisions on is not the minutiae.

551

: 00:32:43

The minutiae is your job, but

552

: 00:32:45

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

553

: 00:32:46

,

Paul Wilson: that necessarily.

554

: 00:32:47

Justin Norris: because nobody cares.

555

: 00:32:49

That's the, that's the tough truth.

556

: 00:32:50

That's.

557

: 00:32:51

Paul Wilson: they want it solved.

558

: 00:32:53

And have seen dollars unlocked or

they've not been unlocked in the past.

559

: 00:33:01

Because the way it's communicated

is just a little different.

560

: 00:33:05

If you're trying to say, we need to

solve a Marketo problem, the C M O

561

: 00:33:11

is gonna experience the instinct of,

I'm already paying enough for mar,

562

: 00:33:15

I don't wanna pay any more for it.

563

: 00:33:18

So the problem isn't a Marketo problem.

564

: 00:33:21

problem is a brand experience, or the

problem is an ability to scale, or the

565

: 00:33:25

problem is something If you're trying to

sell at that level, if you're trying to

566

: 00:33:28

sell solving the problem at that level,

the message needs to be appropriate.

567

: 00:33:33

Justin Norris: You know, I had an,

an experience that captured this

568

: 00:33:36

not too long ago, Had a business

development b d r leader looking

569

: 00:33:40

at a, a new dialer for his team.

570

: 00:33:43

And you know, budgets being tight.

571

: 00:33:45

It's like, no, there's no way.

572

: 00:33:46

Can't bring another tool.

573

: 00:33:47

What's the, you know, we have

dial like, why did a trial

574

: 00:33:52

just, just did it and put it with

a, with a team, relatively small

575

: 00:33:55

team, with the benefit of, of small

organizations that you can't do that.

576

: 00:33:58

And Massive increase in number of

of connected calls and produced

577

: 00:34:03

a really quotable statistic

like in X amount of time.

578

: 00:34:06

We did as many calls as we

did in this whole much bigger

579

: 00:34:08

period, like a month or whatever.

580

: 00:34:10

And like you said, that all of it, nobody

says, oh, we need a new dialer because

581

: 00:34:14

it's gonna give us capability, X, y, Z.

582

: 00:34:16

You have a statistic like that.

583

: 00:34:18

Like, well, yeah, this is a no brainer.

584

: 00:34:19

We have to do this.

585

: 00:34:20

And it's, it's learning.

586

: 00:34:22

It's learning to take this and

then to talk about it like that.

587

: 00:34:26

I, I think particularly in the enterprise,

probably more complicated in the

588

: 00:34:29

enterprise, but really in organizations

of any size, you have to learn to do

589

: 00:34:32

that, to not be perceived as a button

pusher, for lack of a better word

590

: 00:34:37

someone that understands business impact

and can talk about business impact.

591

: 00:34:41

Paul Wilson: it also works in those

environments where may be an executive

592

: 00:34:47

or a leader who thinks that a, a

massive change needs to happen.

593

: 00:34:51

You know the, we need to move to

HubSpot because I've heard it's

594

: 00:34:54

a lot better than Marketo and.

595

: 00:34:59

Being able to work in those kinds of

environments and work through those sorts

596

: 00:35:03

of challenges is a communication problem.

597

: 00:35:06

It, it,

598

: 00:35:07

Justin Norris: Yep.

599

: 00:35:07

Paul Wilson: really is the ability to

navigate and, and understand what are

600

: 00:35:13

the messages that are most important

to, have communicated through that.

601

: 00:35:18

And you aren't always going to win.

602

: 00:35:19

And that's why this is

a fun space to be in.

603

: 00:35:26

Justin Norris: There needs to be a

kit know, where the fire extinguisher,

604

: 00:35:28

you hit the glass with the hammer and

it's like if your VP went to college

605

: 00:35:32

with someone who sells Pardot and

now they're trying to shift you onto

606

: 00:35:34

Pardot, , break the, break the glass and

it gives you the thing that you can say

607

: 00:35:39

Paul Wilson: and I mean, I've, I've, I've

been guilty of, of similar sort of rip

608

: 00:35:43

and replace things in the past and it's,

it's scar tissue that you work through

609

: 00:35:50

Justin Norris: I feel the same.

610

: 00:35:50

And I think the challenge is because

when you, part of what brings you into

611

: 00:35:54

this space is that you love the tools.

612

: 00:35:55

you articulated it perfectly, like

endorphin rush of seeing the light

613

: 00:35:58

go green and it's a live feeling

of like, it's working, it's ama,

614

: 00:36:02

look at this thing that I did.

615

: 00:36:03

It's amazing.

616

: 00:36:04

And.

617

: 00:36:04

And you can become focused

on that as an end in itself.

618

: 00:36:07

And then bring that perspective

to an executive and you'll get

619

: 00:36:10

brought up short so quickly because

620

: 00:36:13

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

621

: 00:36:13

Justin Norris: they, they do not empathize

with the thrill of of that achievement.

622

: 00:36:18

really care about the business

value that's being generated.

623

: 00:36:22

And

624

: 00:36:23

Paul Wilson: Yeah,

625

: 00:36:23

Justin Norris: yeah,

it's a lesson to learn.

626

: 00:36:27

Paul Wilson: absolutely.

627

: 00:36:28

Justin Norris: I have a working

theory that as businesses get bigger,

628

: 00:36:32

they inexorably approach becoming

a real life Dilbert comic strip.

629

: 00:36:37

Like the level of dysfunction

that emerges , part of my working

630

: 00:36:41

theory is just that like, Systems

eventually become so complicated and

631

: 00:36:45

so self-referential that it can become

impossible for that to not happen.

632

: 00:36:49

Obviously there's all sorts of

companies and there's obviously very

633

: 00:36:51

high performing big companies, but I

read an article some time ago, some

634

: 00:36:55

anonymous with someone who worked at

Google and just talking about like how

635

: 00:36:58

that culture changed and how so much of

what they do is now just focused on like

636

: 00:37:01

Google stuff

637

: 00:37:02

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

638

: 00:37:03

Justin Norris: versus like the

delivering of business value.

639

: 00:37:06

Agree, disagree with this theory.

640

: 00:37:08

Am I wrong?

641

: 00:37:08

Is it, is it possible to be a non

dysfunctional, huge company, or is some

642

: 00:37:12

level of dysfunction just inevitable in a

system, a corporate system, that complex.

643

: 00:37:17

Paul Wilson: Well, first I'm gonna

pick up on the Dilbert reference

644

: 00:37:20

because in so many ways is analog.

645

: 00:37:24

There, there's a perfect Dilbert comic

strip separating it from the author, but

646

: 00:37:30

from like the, the comic strip of the, the

character saying that they're engineering,

647

: 00:37:37

they're not very happy and they, you know,

want to maybe go and do something else.

648

: 00:37:42

And I forgot the middle panel

in the strip, but last panel is

649

: 00:37:46

the person saying, well, maybe,

maybe I'll go into marketing.

650

: 00:37:49

And, and the, the other character says,

oh, that's just liquor and guessing.

651

: 00:37:53

I mean that the reason we don't have

nice things, the reason we don't

652

: 00:37:58

have budgets is because marketing

is just liquor and guessing.

653

: 00:38:01

But The degree of operational

dysfunction is correlational

654

: 00:38:08

to the organization's side.

655

: 00:38:10

And I don't see that ever changing.

656

: 00:38:13

And, you know, in the span of my

business to business sales and

657

: 00:38:20

marketing career A good 20 ish years.

658

: 00:38:24

I have seen a number of different

evolutions of, Hey, there's a

659

: 00:38:30

whole new way that we can manage

this large organization and it's

660

: 00:38:33

gonna be entirely different.

661

: 00:38:35

I've seen a number of iterations of

that and to a T when a large enterprise

662

: 00:38:42

organization looks to adapt itself

and change the way it functions.

663

: 00:38:47

is a period.

664

: 00:38:48

That, that chaos actually creates

some alignment and momentum and

665

: 00:38:55

Justin Norris: Hmm.

666

: 00:38:55

Paul Wilson: then the operational

stability overrides and you get

667

: 00:39:02

into the layer upon layer of middle

management of those meetings to

668

: 00:39:09

discuss the meeting, about the meeting.

669

: 00:39:11

Like that, that kind of dysfunction,

I believe is Always going to persist.

670

: 00:39:18

I mean, we saw the impacts of the

pandemic, the idea that, uh, the

671

: 00:39:23

decentralization, the digital head,

head headquarters in Slack where

672

: 00:39:28

everybody can just work in Slack.

673

: 00:39:29

We don't need to be all together

in the meeting or in the building.

674

: 00:39:32

now gut reverse on that, where

some leaders are saying, oh no, we

675

: 00:39:38

know we, do have to be back living.

676

: 00:39:40

There are some things I completely

agree, are much more productive

677

: 00:39:43

in person than they are virtual.

678

: 00:39:47

But inevitably, the larger the

organization, the higher the

679

: 00:39:52

degree of operational mess and,

and static, and that's just,

680

: 00:39:58

that's the way it's going to be.

681

: 00:40:01

Justin Norris: So it

comes with the territory.

682

: 00:40:03

Be prepared and you know, obviously

some are better than others.

683

: 00:40:07

Paul Wilson: Yep.

684

: 00:40:07

Justin Norris: Yeah.

685

: 00:40:08

But yeah, I mean the, the simplest

system is a business of one.

686

: 00:40:12

You're almost always in alignment,

easy to make decisions, easy to pivot,

687

: 00:40:16

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

688

: 00:40:16

Justin Norris: of course,

689

: 00:40:17

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

690

: 00:40:17

Justin Norris: so

691

: 00:40:18

Paul Wilson: Impossible

692

: 00:40:18

Justin Norris: the the,

possibly get fired.

693

: 00:40:21

The flip side, less, seem that

I'm kind of on, big companies.

694

: 00:40:24

But you get to do big, cool,

ambitious things at big companies

695

: 00:40:29

that Just don't get done.

696

: 00:40:30

And so as, as someone who does enjoy

the endorphin rush of scaling those

697

: 00:40:35

mountains sometimes smaller companies

wouldn't have a need to do that.

698

: 00:40:39

Paul Wilson: Yeah, so I've,

I've kind of experienced it.

699

: 00:40:41

If we divide the world into three, the

small, the medium, and the large, I

700

: 00:40:46

have had those experiences at all three

ends of the spectrum where you know,

701

: 00:40:52

looking at the operational complexity

of moving into an 80 some odd thousand

702

: 00:40:58

person company at Salesforce and seeing

initiatives succeed at bringing in, a

703

: 00:41:05

very powerful facilitating into that.

704

: 00:41:10

larger organization.

705

: 00:41:11

When Slack came into Salesforce,

know, seeing some of that, you

706

: 00:41:16

don't get to experience that unless

707

: 00:41:18

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

708

: 00:41:18

Paul Wilson: the worlds of those sorts

of alignments and seeing that kind

709

: 00:41:23

of change at that scale is amazing.

710

: 00:41:26

And then had the mid

market type experience of.

711

: 00:41:31

Very messy, problematic, Marketo issues

Marketo and dynamics are not sinking.

712

: 00:41:38

You've bricked the Marketo instance,

it's been bricked for weeks.

713

: 00:41:42

There's big roadblock, big jams that

need alignment from into Marketo, into

714

: 00:41:49

deep into the customer organization

and getting those things fixed.

715

: 00:41:53

You know, having those successes.

716

: 00:41:56

Are so amazing.

717

: 00:42:01

And then had just, you know, the, the

one person Airtable talking properly

718

: 00:42:08

to Workato doing something in Postman,

getting something to show up over there.

719

: 00:42:11

Like it's, I.

720

: 00:42:13

I think that it, it depends

on your character and what

721

: 00:42:16

Justin Norris: Yeah.

722

: 00:42:16

Paul Wilson: that feeling of success.

723

: 00:42:19

Absolutely.

724

: 00:42:19

At the enterprise scale, you get to

be in a different ecosystem while

725

: 00:42:25

you're experiencing your success.

726

: 00:42:28

But I think if you're looking for that

connection working with people and

727

: 00:42:32

feeling success by solving challenges,

Not that the size doesn't matter, but

728

: 00:42:38

the scale doesn't really necessarily

make a big difference if you are

729

: 00:42:41

really just tied to that feeling of

730

: 00:42:44

Justin Norris: Hmm.

731

: 00:42:45

Paul Wilson: something

732

: 00:42:47

Justin Norris: Winning is winning

the, you may be playing on a different

733

: 00:42:50

board or in a different, Environment.

734

: 00:42:52

But if you understand the rules of the

game and you can, I understand that

735

: 00:42:56

that what you're talking about there.

736

: 00:42:58

You, you twice now, I think at least

twice, maybe more companies that

737

: 00:43:02

you've worked for have been acquired

by big fortune, five hundreds.

738

: 00:43:04

Do you consider yourself like a lucky

charm of sorts or do , is there, is

739

: 00:43:11

there some cosmic effect happening

there or you think that's just a fluke?

740

: 00:43:15

Paul Wilson: Yeah, no, I, I, I

absolutely believe that Benioff

741

: 00:43:19

made his decisions based on where,

742

: 00:43:21

Justin Norris: So

743

: 00:43:21

Paul Wilson: I was.

744

: 00:43:22

Justin Norris: that Paul Guy looks pretty,

pretty smart if it's, if he's there, I,

745

: 00:43:25

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

746

: 00:43:26

Justin Norris: yeah.

747

: 00:43:26

Paul Wilson: No, it's it's

really just being in the

748

: 00:43:30

right place at the right time.

749

: 00:43:32

I think with the right attitude and the,

the the right skillset, I'm very lucky.

750

: 00:43:39

Extremely lucky.

751

: 00:43:42

Justin Norris: I have maybe two more

questions, but the first I want to,

752

: 00:43:44

I want to touch on ai 'cause I know

that this is something, I think you're

753

: 00:43:47

doing a talk on it at Mossa Palooza.

754

: 00:43:50

Coming up clearly this is an area

you've, you've thought a lot about and,

755

: 00:43:54

investing your thought capital into.

756

: 00:43:56

lay out my perspective and then

I, I want to hear yours, but,

757

: 00:43:58

I think I've been dabbling.

758

: 00:43:59

I, I would say I've kind of approached

it from a skeptical place and I've

759

: 00:44:03

seen some interesting things from an

efficiency point of view, summarizing

760

: 00:44:06

notes, creating, highlights, reviewing

calls and giving transcripts.

761

: 00:44:10

And There's certainly

convenience, efficiency, things.

762

: 00:44:12

I've been underwhelmed with the,

the generative, the creative aspect

763

: 00:44:17

of it in the sense that a lot of

what I've seen has been very . not

764

: 00:44:21

just not good or, or generic.

765

: 00:44:23

Like you're always gonna get

something that's generic and, and

766

: 00:44:25

that's what I've struggled with.

767

: 00:44:26

How can something that's sort of

definitionally based on the average of

768

: 00:44:31

a trillion different data points that

it's reviewed, how do, how do you get

769

: 00:44:33

something that, you've talked a lot about

brand experience that produces that good

770

: 00:44:36

brand experience and your perspective

on this may be still evolving, but

771

: 00:44:41

I'm just curious for your take on it.

772

: 00:44:45

Paul Wilson: Yeah, I, I really

believe that we're on the, the verge

773

: 00:44:49

of a massive transformational change

in the space of marketing, sales,

774

: 00:44:54

and customer success operations.

775

: 00:44:55

And it's going to be driven

you know, the three I.

776

: 00:45:00

Core pillars of what machine learning

can do in our space, and that first that

777

: 00:45:06

you're touching on is the content factor.

778

: 00:45:09

So the, the visual and the textual

content and what content can be created.

779

: 00:45:16

The second element of transformation is

going to be in that automation like the,

780

: 00:45:22

the experience at scale through machine

learning can do to ensure that that.

781

: 00:45:29

Machine generated content and imagery

and whatnot is delivered to the

782

: 00:45:33

right audience at the right time,

at the right point in the cycle, on

783

: 00:45:36

the right surface, in the right way.

784

: 00:45:38

And the third element of what

machine learning will do is.

785

: 00:45:42

The analytics and reporting and feedback

and all of the, the deeper knowledge of

786

: 00:45:48

big data and where big data will show.

787

: 00:45:50

And I think that from a maturation

perspective, your criticism is valid

788

: 00:45:54

because I believe we're at the dot makes

matrix era of putting, you know, printing

789

: 00:46:00

pictures off the internet using your dot

matrix printer in terms of what generative

790

: 00:46:04

is gonna be able to do in the space.

791

: 00:46:07

We're really at the tip of the iceberg.

792

: 00:46:09

We aren't pushing.

793

: 00:46:11

Large data sets of corporate and

history and data the mix of what the

794

: 00:46:17

machine learning models are processing

when they're generating their content.

795

: 00:46:21

We haven't yet been able to really

these models over a period of three

796

: 00:46:26

and four years develop the voice.

797

: 00:46:29

Like I think that we're really so

early that it's difficult to assess

798

: 00:46:37

the technology will do for us.

799

: 00:46:41

But I am hundred percent confident

that when we have this podcast three

800

: 00:46:48

years from now and revisit this

conversation first, it'll be our

801

: 00:46:51

digital assistants that are having this

podcast, not us, but we'll be looking

802

: 00:46:56

at a very different paradigm of what.

803

: 00:47:00

Technology like the idea of you know,

the marketing organization being more

804

: 00:47:08

prompt base where you'll be able to

say, Suggest a four step nurture program

805

: 00:47:14

for this persona in this geography.

806

: 00:47:16

And you're looking and assessing a few

possible formats and content mixes and all

807

: 00:47:23

of the smart list building construction,

808

: 00:47:26

Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

809

: 00:47:26

Paul Wilson: just happens in the

background because learning has been able

810

: 00:47:30

to look at and assess and come up with

the mixes without us needing to Do so.

811

: 00:47:35

So I think our space.

812

: 00:47:37

Needs to be extremely diligent

and stay ahead of what machine

813

: 00:47:43

learning can and can't do.

814

: 00:47:46

curate what that change looks

like in order to be present in the

815

: 00:47:49

room once the change has happened.

816

: 00:47:52

Justin Norris: Do you have concerns

at all or do you feel it is a

817

: 00:47:56

just a unvarnished good and, and

benefit that will come from it?

818

: 00:48:00

Or do you think that there is risk for.

819

: 00:48:02

and there's obviously a number of

different vectors where things could

820

: 00:48:05

be negatively impacted from jobs

to maybe the quality of the output.

821

: 00:48:10

Do we diminish the ability of marketers

to think about these things if they become

822

: 00:48:16

too, you know, the kind of wally effect

where we become too reliant on the tools?

823

: 00:48:20

do you feel that is overblown concern?

824

: 00:48:22

Paul Wilson: That's another podcast.

825

: 00:48:24

I mean, I have a lot of concerns

and you know, when we start, I'm

826

: 00:48:27

looking at it from the mechanical

lens of those three pillars

827

: 00:48:32

Justin Norris: Yeah.

828

: 00:48:33

Yeah.

829

: 00:48:33

Paul Wilson: learning can do.

830

: 00:48:34

Justin Norris: Which makes perfect sense.

831

: 00:48:35

Paul Wilson: ethics, when

we start thinking beyond,

832

: 00:48:37

Justin Norris: Yeah.

833

: 00:48:38

Paul Wilson: a different

and and scary conversation.

834

: 00:48:42

But I think we've seen very consistently

that Enterprises and businesses

835

: 00:48:47

will make dollar decisions first,

836

: 00:48:49

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

837

: 00:48:50

Paul Wilson: decisions going

to be on the mechanics.

838

: 00:48:56

Justin Norris: Just to wrap it up,

Paul, you are some months in now

839

: 00:48:58

into your new venture, G T M Systems.

840

: 00:49:01

Just for those that might be curious,

tell us a bit about it and what you're

841

: 00:49:04

doing , and what are the sorts of things

you wanna do and who do you wanna help?

842

: 00:49:09

Paul Wilson: Yeah, so I'm

still kind of putting together

843

: 00:49:12

what that path looks like.

844

: 00:49:13

I, I describe it as stealth mode.

845

: 00:49:15

, Because there are a number of different

paths to take, but where I'm focusing

846

: 00:49:20

is on helping organizations assess

their readiness for the change

847

: 00:49:25

that I was just sort of describing.

848

: 00:49:28

Justin Norris: Hmm.

849

: 00:49:28

Paul Wilson: how do enterprises

assess or not their data set is mature

850

: 00:49:34

enough to use in a machine learning?

851

: 00:49:38

Algorithm, how can they assess which

vendors are the right vendors at the table

852

: 00:49:43

to think about moving towards over the

course of the next two to three years?

853

: 00:49:48

What is the operational structure that

they may wanna look at that says, I.

854

: 00:49:53

My marketing ops and sales ops

organizations need to really become

855

: 00:49:57

one, because SS d r and B D R function

as a whole is gonna be much more

856

: 00:50:03

machine learning, content driven.

857

: 00:50:05

So I'm gonna have three or four rockstar

people, I no longer need 15 humans.

858

: 00:50:10

So how do we do, how do we

enable that transformation?

859

: 00:50:13

So it's those kinds of Pathways that

I'm investigating and working with

860

: 00:50:18

some, some great first customers on.

861

: 00:50:21

But in terms of establishing scale and

how I grow this I'm being diligent.

862

: 00:50:26

I do not want to under deliver and

it's a vast area of potential work.

863

: 00:50:31

So I do want to kind of establish

a, a skillset around it.

864

: 00:50:35

Justin Norris: I'm excited for you.

865

: 00:50:36

I know whoever you work with

will not be disappointed.

866

: 00:50:39

And where can companies find

you on the web if they wanna

867

: 00:50:42

see more about what you do?

868

: 00:50:43

Paul Wilson: The best

place to start is LinkedIn.

869

: 00:50:46

The, the G T M Systems website

is still fledgling and, and I'm

870

: 00:50:51

working through establishing that.

871

: 00:50:52

So is always the best

872

: 00:50:54

Justin Norris: We will, we will

have your LinkedIn in the show

873

: 00:50:56

notes and Hey, Paul, it's always a

pleasure to chat with you and this

874

: 00:51:03

like kind of what our conversations

have been like over the years.

875

: 00:51:05

So I'm glad to just have it in a recorded

format that other people can listen into.

876

: 00:51:10

That's it for today.

877

: 00:51:11

I want to thank everyone for listening.

878

: 00:51:12

Any