How To Explain Your Product to Hook Your Ideal Customer - Mitch Solway
Your GTM message has an incredibly difficult task: to speak to the people who will love your product and take them from a place of disinterest and zero context to a place of understanding and excitement.
When done well, it’s pure magic.
I think that every GTM and ops professional should be familiar with how to do this, and so I asked my old boss, Mitch Solway, to join me for a masterclass in messaging.
Thanks to Our Sponsor
Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.
If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform.
You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.
What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.
About Today's Guest
Mitch Solway is a 5x VP of Marketing who has led teams at Lavalife, Freshbooks, Vidyard, and Clearfit, among others. Today he works as a Fractional CMO for startups.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchsolway/
Key Topics
- [00:00] - Introduction
- [01:28] - How Mitch defines the hierarchy of messaging. He starts at the end, considering the outcome he’s trying to achieve. Then you can reverse engineer what you need to get to that point, starting with positioning, then copy, then messaging.
- [02:55] - The end result for Mitch is two stories: one broad, one narrow. The narrow story is targeted at your “Can’t Miss Customer.” This is your ideal customer. You need to understand everything about this person. Mitch calls this “Is this you?” marketing. You tell the prospect a story, and if you know them really well, your Can’t-Miss Customer will identify themselves in your message. Focusing on the person and their world vs. on your product.
- [04:55] - We don’t tell our customer’s story enough. We need to realize we are only 5% of the customer’s world - important to understand the other 95%. Interview your best customers, then translate those stories back to other prospects.
- [07:33] - The broad story. This is when you’re introducing something new to the market. You need to educate people to create a vision of an “inevitable future.” Getting the market to see the world the way you see it. Example of doing this with Vidyard using influencers to educate the market with a very low budget.
- [13:26] - Creating the “narrow story” for Vidyard. The litmus test for the narrow story is, can you get the person from no context to being excited in three questions. Mitch calls this the “context rollercoaster.” Examples of how this works in practices. If you can do this, you’ve found the “nerve center” that you need to touch on.
- [18:17] - Your product isn’t that important to the customer, most likely. Even if they use it, it’s just a fraction of their world. You need to show them that you understand their pain to spark interest. Example of why this is important in outbound. Example of how Mitch tweaked the messaging at Clearfit to better align with customer truths and how that message was conveyed in radio ads.
- [21:52] - Example of competing with ZipRecruiter on the radio. They had raised funds and were outspending 20:1. Mitch tweaked the messaging to turn the competitor’s strength into a weakness.
- [23:57] - Process for creating a messaging framework from scratch. Start with internal interviews with key stakeholders. 90% of that process is about internal alignment. For positioning, he uses April Dunford’s framework and conducts a workshop with key stakeholders. Prior to that workshop he interviews existing customers that the company wants to get more of. Example of doing this with Ourboro,
- [29:56] - Example of how customer insights also infuse the tone, language, visuals, and emotion of communication.
- [31:36] - Collecting customer insights is a deep process of understanding psychology and emotions. You need a special type of brain to conduct that research - not everyone can do it. It’s a superpower. But those who are expert in it can help the rest of the company receive those insights. Example of how we brought in a customer each month at Clearfit and the impact this had on the company.
- [33:59] - Discussion of interest vs. impact as work motivation. How to cultivate an impact orientation.
Resource Links
- Think Mitch Think - Fractional CMO for Startups - Mitch’s fractional CMO consultancy.
- Obviously Awesome, by April Dunford - Guide to positioning that Mitch uses with customers.
Learn More
Visit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter:
Transcript
In revenue operations, there's a common expression about
2
:delivering the right message to
the right person at the right
3
:time in the right channel.
4
:as operators, we tend to focus a
lot on the systems process and data
5
:parts needed to accomplish that.
6
:So, The message part often seems
like . Somebody else's problem.
7
:But I think that we don't pay enough
attention here because message is what's
8
:being delivered that's make or break.
9
:And if we don't understand our
prospect or if we're saying
10
:something they find confusing or
that they think is irrelevant,
11
:nothing we're doing is gonna work.
12
:We're wasting a lot of time.
13
:So I brought on the smartest guy I know
when it comes to go-to market messaging.
14
:Mitch Solway.
15
:He has been a five time VP of
marketing at companies like Lavalife,
16
:FreshBooks, ard, clear Fit, where
Mitch and I actually worked together.
17
:He was my boss for a couple of years
today he runs Think, Mitch, think
18
:as a fractional c m o for startups.
19
:So we're gonna see some
of that thinking today.
20
:Mitch, welcome to the show.
21
:Mitch Solway: Hey, thanks
Justin and no pressure there.
22
:Justin Norris: pressure at all, Mitch.
23
:I'm so glad.
24
:Uh, could talk 'cause
you're someone that I.
25
:have turned to throughout the years, both
when we worked together and since, and I
26
:always just love, ideas in front of you
because you really do think it through.
27
:You challenge things and I've
loved just watching how your mind
28
:works through these problems.
29
:So Excited to have this conversation.
30
:And I guess we'll, start
it out an easy one.
31
:I like to kind of go back to first
principles, 'cause people use a lot
32
:of these terms, like my messaging,
my positioning, my copy, my tagline,
33
:and it's all sort of confusing.
34
:So I'm just wondering for you,
like, hierarchy of, of message
35
:and how does it get expressed
through all those different forms?
36
:Mitch Solway: Yeah, that's a
great question and, funny 'cause.
37
:I really specifically try to avoid
getting in conversations that are
38
:defining all those things, cause you
can sometimes get lost in their purpose.
39
:So, you know, I, been thinking
about this and, and, Having done
40
:this enough times, where I really
start is I start at the end.
41
:So what's the outcome that I'm trying
to produce that could generate success?.
42
:And then once you kind of know
your ultimate goal is and what
43
:something should look like and
feel like when it's successful.
44
:Then you kind of reverse engineer,
okay, well what are all the things
45
:in my way of getting to that thing?
46
:And that's where things like
your copy and your messaging
47
:and positioning play key roles.
48
:you start at the beginning of
saying, well, let's, go the
49
:process, starting with positioning.
50
:'cause usually goes positioning
and then messaging and copy.
51
:you still might not know, like
you're at the end, like that right?
52
:Is that even any good So having a good
idea of what a good result looks like,
53
:then you can go back and go through
the process to try and get there
54
:and evaluate has my positioning done
what it needs to do to get me point?
55
:And then now I can deal the messaging
and you're continually evaluating
56
:those things against end result.
57
:And for me, the end result is, there's
two stories because I work with early
58
:stage companies and a lot of the
companies I've worked with, Are doing
59
:something and different in the market.
60
:So I'll call one the narrow story.
61
:the narrow story is like I draw the
circle, I say there's your can't miss
62
:customer, so we have to know who's that?
63
:' cause you're building a product and
work with a founder and got this passion
64
:and energy and it's usually not about,
I just wanna make a bazillion dollars.
65
:They're really trying to solve a problem.
66
:if we get to the heart of, well, who's
problem we're really trying to solve
67
:where if that person Came in and bought
and used our product, they would be so
68
:happy, And then for us, we would be so
happy because they're gonna love our
69
:product and tell everyone about it.
70
:And financially they're gonna pay us for
that 'cause it delivers so much value.
71
:that's end state from an acquisition
point is I'm in the business
72
:a, attracting the best possible
people to my product and service.
73
:And then in order to do that, I have to
understand everything about this person.
74
:so I call this s S U Marketing
it's not saying this is who
75
:we are and this is what we do.
76
:But I need to say, you know, is this you?
77
:I'm gonna tell you a story.
78
:I'm gonna describe a scenario, and If
I know you really well and I know your
79
:world, I'm gonna describe you to a team
and say, look, if this is you and you're
80
:struggling with these things and this
is driving you nuts, and you really
81
:wanna find the answer to something,
we can help and a good, and copy.
82
:We'll do a really strong job at helping
your ideal customer that can't miss
83
:customer, identify themselves your
message and go, oh my God, this is me.
84
:that's the narrow messaging
outcome that I want.
85
:So,
86
:Justin Norris: I just wanna comment
on one that, stuck out to me.
87
:'cause it's really obvious when you
hear it, but not something I've seen
88
:in practice, I think as much it should
be, which is the focus on the person
89
:and like, what is that person's world?
90
:are they experiencing that
you can solve for them?
91
:And just going deep there and it's like,
yeah, of course, but everybody starts.
92
:talking about themselves, like our
product, blah, blah, blah, like, you
93
:know, ai, ab blah, blah, blah, blah.
94
:Like, it's all that.
95
:Mitch Solway: A great point, is we
don't tell our customer's story enough.
96
:I do consumer research really
pivotal and when I go and I start
97
:an interview and I reach out to
customers, set context for them and I
98
:say, listen, you know, if I'm working
at Clear Fit, call up our customers.
99
:I said, , look, you know,
I work at Clear Fit.
100
:FITT is a hundred percent of my world.
101
:It's what I think about all day, you're a
customer and fit probably only represents,
102
:you know, like 5% of your world.
103
:So I don't really want to talk
all that much about Clear fitt.
104
:I wanna know like the 95%.
105
:Of the rest of your world.
106
:And then I wanna know how
our 5% fits into that.
107
:you know, you start the question and
you, you have to start being curious,
108
:curious about how you fit into the world.
109
:'cause sometimes you think you're
solving the most important problem
110
:and you realize like, oh my God, like.
111
:we're so relatively unimportant in
their day to day, but we do serve a job.
112
:Like they've got really
important things to do.
113
:So if we can save you a little
bit of time, that helps you do
114
:some really important things.
115
:Or sometimes, like, this is like the
most brutal problem that they need to
116
:solve in yeah, sure, this is a 5% of
my time or 10% of my time, but like
117
:when I'm doing this, it's so important.
118
:And so it's really good framing.
119
:I would encourage people, if you really
want to get good consumer insights and
120
:you really wanna be able to reflect those
stories, is when you talk to customers
121
:and you talk to obviously customers that
represent the kinds of people you want to
122
:bring more of job is to hear their story.
123
:and then what you do is once they
tell you their story, you know,
124
:Why are you in this company?
125
:Why are you in this job?
126
:You know, what keeps you up at night?
127
:What are your goals for the year?
128
:And then they'll naturally tell
you and how they found your
129
:product and what the problem was.
130
:Like what, what, you know, what
was the one thing that happened
131
:that you decided, oh my God, I need
to get something like clear fit.
132
:Right.
133
:they'll probably tell you, then your
job as a marketer is like, how do I
134
:translate You know, these customer
stories back to the rest of the market.
135
:'cause I already know these are,
they're super happy customers that
136
:fan their way into our product.
137
:They love what we do.
138
:we're serving them really well.
139
:It's like, oh my God, I just take
that gold and throw it out to the
140
:market and say, well is this you?
141
:You know, is this a similar story?
142
:Are you experiencing a similar thing?
143
:' cause I can confidently.
144
:Tell that story 'cause I've heard
it a million times, and I can
145
:confidently make you a promise that I
can solve that problem and have such
146
:a high confidence that when you use
the product you're gonna be happy.
147
:Justin Norris: I always love when I
hear you express these things 'cause
148
:it all just like, seems really simple.
149
:Like, simplicity is one
of your hallmarks for me.
150
:I'm like, oh yeah, it's just that easy.
151
:Like, it's never that easy when
I've participated in these things.
152
:But to hear you talk about
it, it's, it's super easy.
153
:What was the second story
that you wanted to share?
154
:Mitch Solway: So there's a second
story that, brands need to tell.
155
:I call this the, wide
story or the broad story.
156
:you don't have to be as laser focused,
uh, of your, your targeting on this one.
157
:A lot of the times if you're introducing
something that's relatively new to
158
:the market, one of the worst things.
159
:To get people to engage with your product
is to tell them about your product.
160
:And you can also do a
161
:mitch-solway_1_10-19-2023_100148: really
162
:Mitch Solway: good job of telling
them, you know, is this you,
163
:but there's this higher order.
164
:'cause you're also trying to build
the category and have to start.
165
:Educating people about your business
and creating context for them to start
166
:to think about their work in a way.
167
:but maybe they haven't thought
about your solution at all.
168
:know, I'll give you a couple examples.
169
:So ard, came up with this concept
as we're a video marketing platform
170
:and, meant nothing like there's no
narrow anything 'cause no one's Google
171
:searching for video marketing platforms.
172
:So we had to tell a bigger story to
get people to start to think about.
173
:And I said, how do we get people to think
about the world the same way that we do?
174
:And we can lead their thinking.
175
:So we, started to create this narrative
content is going to be massive in
176
:the worlds of content marketing.
177
:And this is sort of, uh, you know,
let's say easily over 15 years ago when
178
:content marketing was really the hot
thing and it just started going, video
179
:was still very expensive to produce.
180
:But we wanted to create the
belief and what I call, it's
181
:the inevitable future, right?
182
:Inevitably.
183
:Look, here's what's happening.
184
:Video viewership is booming and
you can collect all the data.
185
:So here's the story.
186
:It's like, here's what we know today.
187
:More and more, everyone's watching video.
188
:It represents probably 10 to 20% of
everybody's content strategy, but in five
189
:years, it's probably gonna represent 80%.
190
:People's content strategy and
without a way to properly analyze
191
:and understand how your video
content is translating into sales
192
:and revenue, you're gonna be screwed.
193
:Right?
194
:Like you're gonna, it's be really
important, know, we can track and
195
:measure our blogs and our SS e o
and all the other content and our
196
:eBooks and whatever, but no one knew
how to track and measure content.
197
:And so we needed to tell a
story of the inevitable futures.
198
:The future is so much of your content
is gonna be on video, and if you're not
199
:able to measure and track how that video
content is driving sales and revenue,
200
:you're just gonna be in a tough place.
201
:So that's why we created video An
interesting thing about ARD is had a very
202
:low budget when I started, we had like
$5,000 a month to spend on marketing.
203
:So the other thing, telling
your broader story that I would
204
:encourage people to think about
is where have you got leverage?
205
:We knew that, content marketing
thought leaders, well ahead
206
:of the rest of the market.
207
:And we had no audience at ard.
208
:We had no credibility.
209
:the CEOs and the co-founders, they've been
doing like video or, video, storytelling
210
:and video ads for, for companies.
211
:but they had no credibility
in the B two B world yet.
212
:we did was, was a content marketing
conference going on in New York City I
213
:went there with our videographer and,
were three keynotes that were given.
214
:one was Pulizzi, one was Den
and one was Anne Handley.
215
:And these at the time, I mean
Ann, they, they're all still
216
:big in content marketing.
217
:These are legends in content marketing.
218
:And then this was the
peak of their popularity.
219
:I didn't know them.
220
:They didn't know us, but we went there
with our camera and a microphone and as
221
:soon as they were done, their keynote,
they would walk out and I'd be there
222
:in the room outside of the auditorium
I'd walk up to them and I'd say, you
223
:know, Hey, I'm Mitch and I work for
this company, ard, you don't know me.
224
:You don't even know what we do, but
we're this video marketing platform.
225
:it be okay if we just did an
interview with you for our blog?
226
:And they all said yes.
227
:And Anne was really funny 'cause she
said, no, this is really insulting.
228
:I'm like, oh my God.
229
:And she's, and then she smiled and
I knew she was just pulling my leg.
230
:I asked them three questions in the
interview first question was, what's
231
:the future of content marketing?
232
:And they would tell me, like, they
just drop all these truth bombs, the
233
:vision of where things were going.
234
:And then my next question was,
where does video fit into that?
235
:Right.
236
:And of course, oh my God, video is like
gonna be so important, blah, blah, blah,
237
:blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
238
:And then the last question is,
what are some practical tactical
239
:tips that people can use to, to
think about their video strategy?
240
:And we did was we had like the
world's worst blog It was terrible.
241
:But we had a vision of, we wanted to
create leading blog and destination for
242
:people to learn about video marketing.
243
:so what we now had is of the major
influencers had told a story that the
244
:future of marketing looks like this.
245
:And video has a huge role on that.
246
:And we put these videos together and
they all had massive social followings.
247
:so, yeah, we could post it to our social
feed, but they all posted it to their
248
:own social feeds got, tons of coverage.
249
:And we got so much inbound traffic
just sharing those posts that, had
250
:instant credibility knew who ARD
was, but these three influencers
251
:were talking to us we weren't even
telling you that video was important.
252
:You had the, industry leaders
telling you that video was important.
253
:So when businesses think about, call the
broad story or the wide story, or the
254
:narrow story, the narrow story is really
important and it's really, although it's
255
:getting more difficult to measure, it's
where marketers spend most of the time.
256
:But the real magic is in the broad story
where you're really trying to influence
257
:the market to start to see the world
and the future the way you see it.
258
:And that's really bigger context setting.
259
:did that at ard.
260
:Very much the same thing at Lab Life
where we had to make online dating, you
261
:from something you didn't talk about
to something that you could talk about.
262
:Justin Norris: marketers today, they're
so used to, multimillion dollar budgets,
263
:big spend on channels to think about,
you one person, a videographer, a
264
:conference, and how you were able
to use leverage to convert that into
265
:something really big is an awesome story.
266
:Mitch Solway: questions like, you know,
we set them up so they could look good.
267
:I didn't say, you know, why should
someone use a video marketing platform?
268
:Right.
269
:just got them to validate that video
is gonna be so, so important, which
270
:is what we needed people to believe.
271
:And So we wanna start them
thinking about, holy crap, like
272
:this is gonna be really important.
273
:Justin Norris: and touching on ARD
again, 'cause I remember . We used
274
:Vidyard actually really early on, I
think maybe even before you joined
275
:or just when you joined there, but
before you had come to Clear FITT
276
:and it was kind of SS m B oriented in
terms of its positioning and then by
277
:the time you had left, it had changed.
278
:It was now much more focused and people
who are using marketing automation
279
:systems, which seems to tie right
into what you're saying around you
280
:wanna use video, but you need to be
able to track it and prove its r o I.
281
:Again, sales and revenue.
282
:was that you leading that process,
what was like the key insight
283
:that led you down that path?
284
:Mitch Solway: so if we
285
:Justin Norris: I.
286
:Mitch Solway: back to
the narrow story on ard.
287
:So for me, get to that end point
where I can say, is this you, the
288
:litmus test is, can I get you from no
context to being excited about what
289
:we're doing in like three questions.
290
:I call it the context
rollercoaster, right?
291
:Because it's like if you could take
someone on a thrill ride I call it,
292
:you know how, you know how, and you
know how, know how this is like this,
293
:and you know how this is like this.
294
:At the very top of the curve I call,
it's the apex of context So You know,
295
:when we were at a conference at ard
people would come up to our booth and
296
:they'd say, well, what is Vidyard?
297
:What do you guys do?
298
:And I would say, well, before I tell
you that, can I ask you three questions?
299
:they'd go, sure.
300
:I'd say, you guys produce
a lot of video content?
301
:Oh my God.
302
:We produce a ton of content and like,
do you guys use marketing automation
303
:software like Eloqua or Marketo?
304
:'cause we'd integrated with these
things like, oh yeah, we use Eloqua.
305
:And like, do you know what the
r o i of that video content is?
306
:Like, oh my God, we have no idea.
307
:Right.
308
:So I could have asked that
question different ways.
309
:Like, you know how you're probably
spending a lot of money on video content?
310
:Yeah.
311
:And like, you know, you're using
Eloqua and Marketo of course.
312
:And, but you know, you have no idea
what the r o i of that video content is.
313
:Oh my God.
314
:So I'm taking you up.
315
:rollercoaster.
316
:Like, I'm setting you up to go now.
317
:They're kind of leaning in.
318
:They're going, yeah, I do
this, and yeah, I've got that.
319
:Yeah.
320
:I have no idea.
321
:What I've done is I've got them from
having no idea and not giving a crap
322
:really about what we're, they probably
just came by to say, you know, to
323
:be nice and say, hi, how are you?
324
:What do you guys do now
being like, oh my God.
325
:Yeah.
326
:Like, tell me like, what does you
do because, it is really easy.
327
:Say we're a video marketing
platform that lets you.
328
:Actually take your video
viewership data and pop it into
329
:your Marketo or Eloqua instance.
330
:that's all we needed to say.
331
:We didn't even need to say what
you would do with that data.
332
:they knew, right?
333
:And they're like, This is amazing.
334
:And so it's the three question test.
335
:Can you ask three questions or can you
present like, you know, how this, and
336
:you know, how this, I mean, you can go on
forever and someone will probably explode.
337
:Like, I like to think you're
inflating a balloon for someone.
338
:It's like you're, they're filling
up where you've got them to the
339
:point of like you've told them.
340
:You, you've drilled down on those pain
points, the challenges they didn't even
341
:know were possible to solve, to the point
where they already know kind of what
342
:you do before you've even told them.
343
:'cause you said, well, all these things.
344
:that's why we created ARD
to solve all those problems.
345
:then, then them down the ride,
which you example, example, example.
346
:Like, here's how we do that, right?
347
:We can pump all that data into
your Marketo, Eloqua instance.
348
:Obviously, you can feed analytics
in terms of who's watching
349
:your videos and for how long.
350
:And then you can and customize all
your outbound and your follow ups or
351
:your websites, or your sales agents
will know when they send an email to
352
:someone with a video link, they know
which one's opened it, which one's
353
:watched, and then so they can follow up.
354
:And we know videos they
watched on your website.
355
:So when you reach out to a
customer, gonna know what
356
:products they were interested in.
357
:Like, they knew all that 'cause they
used marketing automation tools.
358
:Like they, they know how
to use data intelligence.
359
:They had no intelligence on video.
360
:So that became the our
messaging strategies.
361
:How do we let someone know very quickly
you can go from having no information
362
:to just getting all this data to
turn that data into better decisions
363
:and turn that into more revenue.
364
:Justin Norris: is kind of a superpower.
365
:like the ability to connect someone,
take them from indifference or
366
:perhaps even like, you know, at
a conference, you do really kind
367
:of wanna stay away from people.
368
:You don't want to be accosted
and drawn into these things.
369
:So to go from that defensive posture
to bring people to a place where
370
:they're . Actually excited about
hearing what you have to say.
371
:It's kind of a magical thing and
372
:Mitch Solway: Or not
373
:Justin Norris: I, I.
374
:Mitch Solway: questions if they
go, you do a lot of videos?
375
:Like, well, not really.
376
:Okay.
377
:Well, do you use Marketo or Qua?
378
:No.
379
:know, so then I'll just still tell
them, oh, we're a video marketing
380
:platform and we help companies.
381
:I don't even tell them how it works.
382
:We typically work with companies that are
spending a lot of money on video content,
383
:and just have no idea what that r o I
is and they really need to understand.
384
:this is the test.
385
:. The questions is like a psychology
trick, and if it's not a trick, it's like
386
:how do I get someone from no context?
387
:To fully engage context
in three questions.
388
:then, you know, kind of, found nerve
center, you need to touch on to get
389
:people to want to then be in action, to
lean in and, and, start to learn more.
390
:Then they'll go, oh my God, they'll tell
me more about this, and then we can talk
391
:about the 53 other features that we have.
392
:I know that those are all gonna be
gravy on top of the main core problem.
393
:Justin Norris: one of the main things I've
been working on, my current job since I
394
:joined 360 Learning is in outbound motion.
395
:And you really see this so clearly in
outbound because, You are just showing
396
:up uninvited in somebody's inbox, and
you're either gonna be spam or maybe
397
:there's a faint glimmer of a hope
that they will see some relevance in
398
:what you're saying and read on, and
then maybe decide give you a reply.
399
:But me, it, it really a learning
process of, you know, your first
400
:drafts of stuff through, at least for
me, they're very product focused, why
401
:we're so great and all the things we
do, and then realizing, no, they need
402
:to see themselves And what I'm saying,
or else it's completely irrelevant.
403
:It's just noise to them.
404
:Mitch Solway: Yeah, like who
care about what we're doing.
405
:Right.
406
:I know how much of my time I spend
thinking about the business that I'm
407
:working on, which used, Marketo, right?
408
:We use Salesforce.
409
:I mean, how much time do I, I mean,
you spent a lot of time thinking about
410
:them because you worked on them, right?
411
:But.
412
:didn't spend a lot of time thinking
about that, but we used that software.
413
:So, know, thinking about our own
buying processes, we know we've
414
:got a bigger job to do and when
we buy software, we buy products.
415
:They're just a fraction of
what our world represents.
416
:So most people don't really care
about what do, what they care is
417
:what they need to get done and
what, they're pressured to deliver.
418
:And Clear Fit was another good example.
419
:We had so much fun in Clear Fit
because hiring was so painful.
420
:before this, I was looking back at
our clear fit messaging and, were
421
:some subtle changes that we made.
422
:You know, at first we talked
about, it's the, fastest way to
423
:find and hire best employees.
424
:And after talking with customers, I
talked to a whole bunch of them and I
425
:found out that it wasn't about hiring
the best people, lot of our customers
426
:were trying to hire more blue collar.
427
:Types of workers to work in their plants
and manufacturing, maybe some admin jobs.
428
:But it wasn't necessarily, you know,
product marketers and CFOs and all that
429
:kind of stuff, or So they were saying
like, we would hire people and they
430
:just, they wouldn't even show up work.
431
:I don't need them to be the best.
432
:I just need them to show up
and, be successful in their job.
433
:And
434
:mitch-solway_1_10-19-2023_100148: so
435
:Mitch Solway: fastest way to find
and hire, employees that succeed.
436
:changed it from the best employees.
437
:We talked about the best employees.
438
:We talked about our crazy technology
and the analytics and whatever,
439
:and nobody cared about that.
440
:once we found out that what they
really cared about was hiring
441
:just employees that would succeed.
442
:And then the other thing we learned,
particularly for our smaller customers,
443
:it was often like the boss of the
company that didn't do the hiring,
444
:they asked someone else, dunno if you
remember our radio ad that we did about,
445
:Justin Norris: do.
446
:Mitch Solway: Hey Rob, you boss
comes in and uh, ads are great 'cause
447
:you get to tell like a real story
that your customers tell you about.
448
:goes, okay, team is booming.
449
:So we got lots of stuff to do and you
know, Barb, you're gonna do this and
450
:Steve you're gonna do this, and Bob,
you've got the most important job at all.
451
:And,
452
:Justin Norris: Don't say hiring.
453
:Don't say hiring.
454
:Don't say hiring.
455
:Mitch Solway: Don't say
hiring please anything.
456
:But hiring goes hiring.
457
:You know, we need to go find and
hire the right people for the job.
458
:And he is like, oh man,
like what am I gonna do?
459
:Right?
460
:And then we just went on to basically say,
we know, like we know that's how you feel.
461
:And so many times, even if you are the
boss, you still like feel like, oh my god.
462
:I have to hire again, and it's
like all I do is fail at hiring.
463
:And we knew they didn't know how
to write job descriptions, so we
464
:said, Hey, need a job description?
465
:No problem.
466
:Just, you know, one click,
you'll have one done.
467
:You know, need to post it to job boards.
468
:We knew that was the next fear.
469
:It's like, no problem.
470
:We'll instantly send 'em to all the job
boards and then you know, need to know
471
:who to interview, like instantly tell you.
472
:who's most likely to succeed.
473
:And all the crazy analytics and
scientific things that we did that were
474
:really amazing, most of our customers
didn't actually care about that.
475
:They just cared about pain around,
one was hiring to be hard right?
476
:you know, we were, competing a little
bit with ZipRecruiter at the time.
477
:And I remember reading that, oh my God,
ZipRecruiter just raised $80 million and
478
:they were competing with us on the radio.
479
:And the next thing you know,
they're outspending us like 10
480
:or 20 to one on the radio.
481
:forced us.
482
:To rethink about our messaging because
if we're talking about, you know, posting
483
:your jobs to job boards and getting all
these applicants and making that really
484
:easy, it just wasn't as relevant anymore.
485
:'cause ZipRecruiter sounded like they were
really pumping about how many applicants
486
:you could find really, really quickly.
487
:what we did that is it forced us
and me to really lean into like,
488
:oh my God, what am I gonna do?
489
:These guys are like gonna crush us, is
we went back and we refined the message.
490
:To even them further distinguish what
made us different and we sort of used
491
:ZipRecruiter messaging against them.
492
:It started to say, you know, when
it comes to hiring, the last thing
493
:you want is to have this huge
stack of resumes to sort through.
494
:'cause we also knew that was true as well.
495
:It was like, would say, oh my God,
I post jobs and people email me
496
:a gazillion resumes and hated
working through the stack.
497
:But our original messaging didn't
deal with that problem 'cause
498
:hated all the things before that.
499
:we said, you know, the last
thing you want is a huge stack
500
:of resumes to sort through.
501
:That's why Clear FITT is the
only service that will instantly
502
:identify who's most likely succeed.
503
:So you know exactly who to follow up with.
504
:And while we didn't change the messaging,
we just changed the of the value.
505
:And we reframed it against,
Hey, if you're thinking about
506
:using ZipRecruiter, think twice.
507
:'cause ZipRecruiter is gonna fill
your inbox with a gazillion resumes.
508
:And then what are you gonna do?
509
:Right?
510
:Then you're gonna be, oh my God,
like, do I really want this?
511
:No, well, we're gonna actually tell
you, you know, who's gonna succeed and,
512
:and, that you should follow up with.
513
:And that was just another good example
of, know, going from freaking out to
514
:You know, if you think about how my mind
works, it's like how can I still sharpen
515
:my pencil and create compelling message,
and how do I know my customers so well
516
:I'm gonna be hyper relevant for them?
517
:Justin Norris: And turning their strength,
ostensible strength into a weakness
518
:so let's say you were starting
with a blank page, you know, new.
519
:Company approaches you, they're a startup.
520
:Maybe they don't even have
their messaging framework yet.
521
:They're just getting into the market
What's the process that you go through?
522
:How do you think about that?
523
:Mitch Solway: and, and
I have a really clear
524
:Justin Norris: I.
525
:Mitch Solway: that I go through it first
starts with, internal interviews with
526
:the key stakeholders in the business.
527
:the first thing I need to understand
is, you, what do you think the key
528
:challenges of the business are?
529
:I'm just looking for the degree
of consistency or inconsistency
530
:across like leadership team, or
there's no leadership team who are
531
:the key, key people in the company.
532
:And are they all articulating the similar
challenges or different challenges or
533
:they, when I ask them, you know, what
do you think our businesses really
534
:in and who should we be talking to?
535
:there's consistency or if inconsistency.
536
:will gimme a bit of a measure in
terms of much work there is to do.
537
:cause the first order of business
is going through the positioning
538
:exercise with the whole leadership
team or any of the key stakeholders.
539
:It's 90% of the value is
about internal alignment.
540
:say, listen, if we can't agree, we
don't even understand who we are and
541
:how to talk about our business and
why people should buy us, how are
542
:we gonna expect customer to know?
543
:Right?
544
:So the first order of business
is get your own house in order,
545
:And I use April Dunford framework
in her obviously awesome book.
546
:I used to do positioning on my own.
547
:I didn't engage other people in
it 'cause I knew how to get there.
548
:her framework is so good for me to
use to just involve everybody in
549
:the process because you get everyone
in a room and we agree on certain
550
:things like, they're competing with
other software, but you're usually
551
:competing with the status quo, right?
552
:number one job.
553
:Even at FreshBooks, it was always
about people using Word in Excel and 10
554
:years later, once there's a gazillion
online invoicing softwares out there.
555
:know, 90% of our customers
came from Word and Excel.
556
:aligning to, you what are
people gonna use today if they
557
:mitch-solway_1_10-19-2023_100148: weren't
558
:Mitch Solway: using anything?
559
:Who's our, target audience and who
What really makes us different?
560
:Go through this process everybody
gets aligned and what you've done
561
:is you created these guardrails.
562
:'cause at an early stage company,
there's so many things you could
563
:do or you could be, and this is
really all about decision making.
564
:And when you do it together as
a group, gets to participate and
565
:everyone's part of the process.
566
:So when you get to the end,
everybody feels part of the process.
567
:And when you produce the result
of, here's what we agreed to.
568
:Here's who our ideal customer is
and here's our unique points of
569
:difference, and here's value it creates.
570
:And it's not a messaging strategy or
anything, but everyone now has common
571
:and shared understanding of the key
things that we actually need to align on.
572
:that's my first order of business.
573
:Before I do the positioning, I do
the internal interviews and then I
574
:ask them, do you have any customers
today that represent the kinds of
575
:customers you want to get more of?
576
:I want to talk to them.
577
:And as I told you, I
wanna know their story.
578
:And I'll go and I'll do
that work myself and.
579
:That just requires, really good questions.
580
:A real curiosity.
581
:I've done enough of these that I know
how to direct those conversations where
582
:I get the stories and just my own Maybe
you can use AI to compile those things
583
:and deliver the key insights, but I
just use my own listening skills and
584
:listening for cues and similarities.
585
:I used to say after you talk to maybe five
people, you're hearing similar themes.
586
:I'll make sure that I'm bring
and share that information.
587
:I'll write a summary of those
interviews to the rest of the group
588
:so we have a shared understanding of
what Our target market characteristics
589
:are, and what the real value is.
590
:So I need to bring those to the table.
591
:then once we've done the positioning,
it's a matter of like, oh, how do we
592
:translate that into, a messaging strategy?
593
:And messaging, though
so much more than just.
594
:You know, translating your positioning
into something you have to build
595
:in your brand and your tone.
596
:worked at a company, as a fractional C
m O called Arbor, and they were doing
597
:something new and different, and they're
a company that would contribute up to
598
:$250,000 towards your down payment.
599
:They were solving a problem of,
look, there's young professionals.
600
:they're making enough money
that they can afford a mortgage.
601
:just don't have know, if I'm gonna buy.
602
:million dollar house, if you're lucky
now, you say a $2 million house,
603
:I need $400,000 of down payment.
604
:who has $400,000 saved up, in even
like early thirties, like has that.
605
:I was out there in the market.
606
:I think I posted on Facebook, Hey,
does anyone in my network know anyone
607
:that's thinking about buying a home?
608
:But they're struggling with some
things in particular, the down payment.
609
:I'd love to talk with them.
610
:I would just go and we'd have a coffee
They tell me about the challenges
611
:and they tell me, yeah, d a damn
payment is the real blocker for me.
612
:So identify that it's a real problem
for them, that that's the only
613
:thing really getting in their way.
614
:And of course, prices in Toronto gone
crazy, so that's a whole other thing.
615
:But at this time, were high, but
they could still afford the mortgage.
616
:They just couldn't do the damn payment.
617
:And soon as I introduced the
concept, The number one reaction
618
:was, okay, you're gonna gimme 250,000
bucks towards my damn payment.
619
:What's the catch?
620
:are you gonna screw me?
621
:'cause this is what people expect, right?
622
:It's too good to be true or
anything about lending money is
623
:never in favor of the buyer, right?
624
:The good news is that the company
itself, the founders and everyone there,
625
:like they authentically were building
something that was for the customer.
626
:wanted to find a new way that
wouldn't have people go into debt
627
:and that would, them access to
capital that they would never have.
628
:had a, a really good message.
629
:I usually start for my messaging
than getting creative, If I don't
630
:know what to do, I just go literally.
631
:And, and started, there was a
tagline I came up with is, don't
632
:let down payments get you down.
633
:' cause we knew that just like, oh, I wanna
buy a home, but the damn damn payment
634
:and just came up with subline is like
we can contribute up to $250,000 towards
635
:down payment and then added, you know,
no monthly payments and no interest.
636
:Which sounded a little salesy, but
was provocative enough that people
637
:would go, oh my God, that sounds
great, but like, there's no way.
638
:It's true.
639
:So the whole tone our
messaging though, to be.
640
:Warm and friendly.
641
:and we even had a in our top
nav, like, what's the catch?
642
:Right?
643
:we just took it on and we
said like, there is no catch.
644
:Like this is how it works.
645
:And we had to explain it to people,
but we crafted the message, we had
646
:to be very mindful of understanding
again, that our customers reaction
647
:would be, it's too good to be true.
648
:are you gonna screw me in this?
649
:the good news is we were authentically,
genuinely caring people that were
650
:actually doing this to favor the buyer.
651
:there was a way that buyers,
homeowners can win the lenders can win.
652
:Like there there's something
in this for everybody.
653
:And so, Part of the messaging needed
to have a tone created some inviting
654
:and the, the visuals and the brand
and look and the feel and, I told them
655
:than anything, once we get people on
the platform and, and homes with us,
656
:we need them to tell their story.
657
:' cause again, it's a kind of thing where.
658
:I'll believe it when I hear
it from someone in my network.
659
:Or I hear real Homeowners tell
me working with this company
660
:was like right from day one.
661
:were so nice and they were so kind
and they were so helpful and they
662
:used all the words like were had
to deliver an experience was not
663
:what they were expecting, but what
we knew would win us business.
664
:The first thing was they really cared
and they helped us through everything.
665
:And there was no pressure.
666
:were so helpful found the house we
wanted were so fast to do, it felt
667
:like we were serving them rather
than them being beholden to us.
668
:And so that, I don't know how
to describe that in a messaging
669
:strategy, but there's a level of tone.
670
:That needs to get baked into
what you do matches where your
671
:customer needs to meet you.
672
:that's a real important
part of the strategy.
673
:So you're looking for those cues when
you're doing the customer interviews
674
:Justin Norris: the thing that stands out
for me, and you mentioned using AI to
675
:process some of these transcripts or,
conversations, and maybe there could
676
:be some efficiency gain from doing
that, but it really seems to me that
677
:mechanical, what you're getting from
these conversations in this research.
678
:It's A deep emotional and psychological
understanding of these people that then
679
:doesn't just translate into a message.
680
:But like you said, it translates
into the tone, the brand, the
681
:experience that you're delivering
on so many different facets.
682
:And it just seems like that is a
deeply human, many cases, maybe
683
:happening underneath the level
of your conscious awareness.
684
:Like how those connections
are being formed.
685
:It seems you would miss so much if
you did not have the direct human
686
:contact to learn those things.
687
:Mitch Solway: and, and one thing I've
learned is, I really love the process
688
:of discovering that consumer insight
and I mostly love it 'cause I know
689
:that it's gold, but I also know that
not everybody knows how to get there.
690
:So you hear a lot of people talk about,
talk to your customers consumer insights,
691
:You know, you need a special type of
brain knows how to ask the questions,
692
:that knows how to listen for the cues.
693
:Then can turn those cues from listening
into, oh my God, I found the gold here.
694
:Just like, we had this
customer month, right?
695
:Where once a month we'd invite
a customer That was something
696
:you were responsible for.
697
:Let's find one of our customers, them on
a big screen in front of the whole company
698
:and have them everybody their story.
699
:I remember looking at everybody,
everyone's eyes like, once we understood.
700
:What they were really facing with every
day, like how busy these people were
701
:and how important app was in terms of
just helping them get their job done.
702
:people go, oh my God, that was amazing.
703
:Like inside the company, if you
asked any one of those people
704
:to go and talk to a customer,
would never get level of insight.
705
:' not engineered.
706
:I mean, that's not their superpower
of knowing how to get them there.
707
:I would encourage anyone to try as much
as you can, bring that into the company,
708
:you will significantly transform everybody
in the company thinks about their job
709
:and like, what am I really doing here?
710
:value does this really bring?
711
:One is this amazing to hear customers
say how much they value your product.
712
:it pumps everyone up like,
oh my God, this is amazing.
713
:They're saying like, this is like, I don't
know what I would do with a clear fit.
714
:But then to realize my God, these are
really busy people and what, what role
715
:you play for them is it just gives
you context that, everyone's missing.
716
:And
717
:Justin Norris: Yep, totally agree.
718
:And I remember those customer
discussions were really
719
:emotional experiences sometimes.
720
:'cause you would've small business owners.
721
:Remember one guy was like, I don't
know whether next week, like, I'm
722
:gonna be bankrupt or I'm gonna
be, you know, on top of the world.
723
:Like my cash flows here.
724
:There like . You know, you just
really get to the heart of that.
725
:And I wanna ask one final question
actually, kind of coming back
726
:to us working together actually
a a way that you, I think really
727
:factored into my personal growth.
728
:But I remember a conversation we
had at one point, and this was
729
:at a phase in my career where.
730
:You know, it I was really
learning about automation, all the
731
:things it could do, technology.
732
:It was a lot of fun for me, and and I
was finding it all very interesting.
733
:And I, would use that word a lot.
734
:And at one of our meetings
you said, Justin.
735
:I want you to think less about what's
interesting and more about impact.
736
:And
737
:kind of stung a little
actually when you, said that.
738
:and it stuck with me for a while
because it made me . Kind of question,
739
:like how am I wired in this way?
740
:And I've kind of had to rewire myself in
a lot of cases to be like, my interest
741
:in these things can't be academic.
742
:It can't just be like, this is cool.
743
:It has to be focused on what
does the business actually need.
744
:And I think that is orientation
that operations needs to have.
745
:the point of that story is to get to
the question of how do you develop
746
:this impact, focus in yourself?
747
:Is this just inherent?
748
:Is it something you cultivate?
749
:Where does it come from?
750
:Mitch Solway: Well, there's
a few things, and first
751
:Justin Norris: I.
752
:Mitch Solway: all, thanks.
753
:You read a post the other day of someone
saying, you you give feedback, you know,
754
:it's, it fits sting a little bit, right?
755
:'cause I, think stinging feedback, if
it's coming from a good place, when
756
:it stings, kind of know it's true.
757
:Right?
758
:So everything hurts at the first time.
759
:It's like, oh, kudos to the
people that can take this
760
:thing and then move on, right?
761
:And then say, well, now what do I do?
762
:So I'll say the first thing is I love the
intellectual curiosity that people have.
763
:So it's not impact over academic
or intellectual curiosity.
764
:It's when you have both
the magic really happens.
765
:you need people that, like if you're in a,
creative space, like you just need people
766
:to be creative or inventive, And they'll
never think about impact that's okay.
767
:'cause not everyone has that orientation.
768
:But when you're building a team in
a startup everything's about results
769
:and me, teaching people impact is not
teaching people impact, but it's setting
770
:an expectation right from the job
description and when I'm hiring people
771
:that you need to care about impact.
772
:time in your company where like, you
don't need to care about, I've got impact.
773
:Like, I just need you to do this.
774
:when you're small and you're growing,
everybody needs to care about impact.
775
:So part of it is, When you set an
expectation you just like marketing.
776
:It's like, Hey, do you care about impact?
777
:You know, are you someone that cares
about, you know, like you wake up
778
:every morning and you wanna know
how many new customers came in?
779
:Like you describe someone like that is
you're describing someone that at the end
780
:of the day they get their kicks 'cause
they see the impact of what they do.
781
:Justin Norris: It's a different kind of
high than just the high of like discovery.
782
:It's a high of really achieving something.
783
:Mitch Solway: you could tell I get
excited about consumer insights
784
:and figuring all this stuff out.
785
:That whole process is so exciting for me.
786
:Part Part of it is 'cause
intellectually, I'm just so curious.
787
:I love understanding people and I just
find it fascinating, but I also know
788
:it's exactly what I need to deliver.
789
:The high standards, like I have a big
standard for myself I gotta create impact.
790
:Like otherwise, I'm like, what am I doing
here if I'm not creating breakthroughs
791
:and if I'm not solving big problems?
792
:Then, you know, that's my superpowers.
793
:Give me like the toughest
challenges you need to deal with.
794
:Like, what are we doing?
795
:Who's our customer?
796
:How do we talk to them?
797
:How do we grow this business?
798
:it's all about impact
at the end of the day.
799
:The payoff for me is when at as a
company, we're just growing and doing
800
:great things and blowing through,
metrics and targets, is great.
801
:I just, I find my way there through
Diving deep into the things that
802
:I really care about that I know
can translate into massive growth.
803
:You talk to another marketing leader
and they may have a different set of
804
:superpowers that will lead to impact,
but this is just an area for me that I've
805
:just found overwhelmingly lead to, faster
growth, stronger company alignment the
806
:things that work and, longer brand health.
807
:When you have a deeper
understanding of your customer.
808
:Justin Norris: I know you gotta go.
809
:We just wanna say, this was so much
fun, so cool, so fun to see you
810
:think through this, and I just really
appreciate you being on the show.
811
:Mitch Solway: my pleasure.
812
:if anyone wants to find me, you know, just
search me up on LinkedIn just for sway and
813
:I'm always happy to meet new people and,
and have these kinds of conversations.
814
:Justin Norris: Yeah, we'll, we'll
get links to your LinkedIn and
815
:your website in the show notes.
816
:Mitch Solway: Thanks Justin.
817
:Justin Norris: Mitch.
