Episode 10

full
Published on:

5th Dec 2023

Going Deep Into the Refine Labs Methodology - Sidney Waterfall

Refine Labs has changed the course of B2B marketing over the past few years.

Challenging conventions on attribution and funnel tracking and championing new ways of generating demand, this agency has broken pretty much every mold and driven the conversation and debate.

Today we're joined by SVP of Marketing Sidney Waterfall, who produces much of the Refine Labs IP and brings together both deep demand gen and RevOps expertise. In this in-depth discussion we unpack the nitty-gritty of the Refine Labs methodology.

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About Today's Guest

Sidney Waterfall is SVP of Marketing at Refine Labs, with responsibility for GTM strategy, demand generation, product marketing, product strategy, and ultimately driving revenue for Refine Labs services and products.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sidneywaterfall/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:02] - Sidney's background and how she joined Refine Labs.
  • [02:25] - Issues in B2B marketing today. Many people still running a lead gen approach. Lack of focus on data structure and operations, although macroeconomic conditions forcing people to become more data driven.
  • [05:19] - Defining terms - lead gen, demand gen, demand capture, demand conversion.
  • [07:47] - More companies implementing this approach in recent years. But some still struggle with making the transition. How Refine Labs helps companies make that strategic shift. First step is accepting that buyer behavior has changed. Requires deep alignment at the leadership level. Changing measurement and KPIs, from lead generation to higher intent pipeline. This provokes terror in some. Overcoming objections. Indicators to look at.
  • [15:22] - What it means to run a demand creation campaign and how to do it. You don't need a huge evangelist in your company. Only 20-25% of Refine Labs clients have that. It starts with the content that's on your high-value product and solutions pages. This gives the campaign strategy or angle. You take that and package it for both paid and organic. This content communicates problem awareness. You can also work with content teams, take assets like blog posts and repackage them for social. Distribute it in a buyer-centric way - un-gated, designed for the platform, unique. You need some offer in the middle, like a podcast or live event series, that people can engage with.
  • [20:35] - Whether this approach can work for everyone. It requires a basic repeatable sales process and the ability to talk to prospects. If you don't know how to convert a buyer when they are in a sales cycle, you won't know how to create demand.
  • [22:13] - The role of ops in a demand creation GTM strategy. Ops is pivotal. There's a strategic side and a tactical side. If ops is a strategic function in your org, you will have a powerhouse org. They need to offer not just data but insights - that's the step up there. Justin notes that ops leaders need to be revenue leaders in their own right, not just in service of others.
  • [28:13] - How to configure systems for attribution. First step is standardized UTM values. Important to track session-based UTMs - so first touch but also tracking UTMs for each session that results in a conversion. A conversion is anytime your sales team is working something. Tracking meetings and sub-stages, opportunities and sub-stages. Definition of HIRO pipeline - opportunity stage that converts at 25% or higher. Source (offer) is what they engaged with - the destination. Campaign is a detail of that. This is more predictive of outcomes than the channel that referred them.
  • [36:34] - The new Refine Labs funnel model. Traditional demand waterfall is ingrained in everything - an assembly-line approach. This new approach un-blends the funnel into pipeline sources. It's built built around what the customer is doing vs. internal departments. Ability to track how people come in and out of the market at different times. With opportunities, they look at the originating contact as the source. Separating the funnel questions from account journey questions. They are distinct, require different data sets.
  • [47:07] - Definition of "conversion". Different companies have different thresholds for when leads go to sales. This model enables comparison between different conversion sources to evaluate their effectiveness.
  • [50:48] - Looking at the account journey. It's about pattern recognition, seeing what things are more common for personas and stages, and using that to optimize in-channel strategy. This is more loose vs. funnel tracking, which should be black and white. Focused heavily on topics, not just formats. There is no perfect, beautiful account journey.
  • [55:15] - Discussion of The Vault and WatchTower.

Resource Links

  • Refine Labs - Official site
  • The Vault - IP database of Refine Labs methodology, including frameworks, experiment reports, playbooks, and community. They have a paid membership, but I highly recommend signing up even for a free account, as there are a lot of valuable resources available to all.
  • WatchTower - Conversion tracking and hybrid attribution solution built on the Salesforce platform.
  • Chris Walker on YouTube - Hundreds of hours of educational content and podcasts.

Learn More

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Transcript
Justin Norris:

WelcOme to Rev Ops fm everyone.

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Today we are joined by the

amazing Sydney Waterfall, SVP of

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Marketing at Refine Labs, where she

leads GTM and Revenue for Vault.

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if you're not familiar with Refine Labs,

while you really should be, they're a

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demand generation agency that, from my

point of view have really been leading the

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discussion when it comes to go-to-market

strategy the past four years or so.

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their

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thought leadership has

had a big impact on me.

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It's changed a lot of the ways that I

look at marketing, Sydney has been one

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of the most prominent voices from refine

labs out on LinkedIn, evangelizing a

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different and better way to do marketing.

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So Sydney, I am super excited

to have you here today.

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Sidney Waterfall: Wow.

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Thank you for that intro.

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That's great, . Super

excited to chat with you.

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Justin Norris: have a, just

a little bit of background.

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I know you've been at Refine

Labs about three years or so.

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what led you to there?

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Sidney Waterfall: Yeah, I was always

in B two B SaaS and kind of on the

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demand and operations side is my

background been a long time listener

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of season one of Demand Gen live with

Walker and Gaana Denar, and I was

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Listening to all of that, trying to

transition my org that I was at off

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the MQL hamster wheel a more modern

approach, and was pretty successful in

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some of the initial pilots and the proof

of concepts that I was able to run,

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especially with our paid media spend,

but ultimately couldn't really get the

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full alignment of the company on board.

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And so I thought, well, what if I

go work for Refine Labs, um, . And

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it kind of was serendipitous.

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I, uh, closely connected

with, Judy Sheriff who had

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been working at Refine Labs.

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So it kind of just, it was a,

it's a big world, but a small

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world in tech at the same time.

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so it kind of just worked out.

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And I started at Refine Labs,

I think as employee number 15.

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Back in, well, I was interviewing

in:

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right at the beginning of the year.

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So I'm coming up on my

anniversary in January.

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actually

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Justin Norris: which is like being

a dinosaur in tech, you know, to

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stay at a place more than two years,

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Sidney Waterfall: It's like,

okay, you're a legacy now.

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Or like you, we say you're like

a five year tenured employee

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if you're there for two years,

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Justin Norris: you get the Rolex

watch and everything like that.

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So, I mean, alluded to, MQL hamster wheel,

which is, I know, something that, that

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Chris often talks about on his podcast

and refine labs has, a clear Opinion

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and perspective on a lot of the things

that are not working well in B two B.

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It's probably a, a sizable list.

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And I'm curious for you, you

know, we're, a few years into

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this message being out there.

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What are some of the things that

you're still seeing the market

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that are just not working?

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People doing things that are

broken, that are not effective?

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does it look like from your perspective?

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Sidney Waterfall: So surprisingly, you

know, we've been talking about, and

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not just us, but other people, other

marketers, other people in the market

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have been talking about, you know,

the transition from lead gen to demand

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gen and you know, kind of beating that

drum for the past two to three years.

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And a lot of people are kind of

like, oh, like we get it, you

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know, it's an old message, right?

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Surprisingly though a lot of

people are still running a, like a

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predominantly lead gen driven approach,

especially in larger organizations.

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And I think that's just due to

the fact that larger organizations

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are slower to change and take a

lot more convincing to change.

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So the, agile or slightly smaller

orgs are kind of shifting faster.

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So even though it's maybe to some

people a message that they've heard

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a lot, it's still very much being

executed, predominantly lead gen

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approach and overall go to market.

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Like how are we gonna get these

marketing qualified leads?

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How are we gonna qualify them?

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People are still forecasting that way.

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So that's still very much a thing.

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I would say that there's a good

chunk of companies, especially

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in tech, that are adopting more.

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Blended approach where they're trying

to do a hybrid and then transition

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into a full demand gen approach.

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a couple of other things that I've seen

that have stayed the same are the lack

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of, um, importance on data structure and

operations just in general as a function,

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which I'm sure you're very aware of

and probably people that listen to this

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podcast, are probably nodding their heads.

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I do think that is slightly

changing though, given like

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the macro economic, conditions.

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It's forcing companies to be more strict

or more like quote unquote data driven.

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And it's like no longer an

excuse not to have . Data to

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report on certain things anymore.

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Like that's not acceptable.

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It's not an excuse.

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Your CFO is not going to care.

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Your CMO is more motivated

to fix these things.

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Same with all of your leadership.

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So think that's turning, but still

very much something I say that has

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stayed the same in organizations.

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And then outside of, I would say like

media and demand, I just think that

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has stayed the same is lack of focus on

messaging and positioning, leads to like

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clearer differentiation in, the market

and the messages that you're putting out.

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Justin Norris: That one is huge.

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It never ceases to amaze me like,

we'll spend so much money distributing

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a message might not be resonating

or that is just full of buzzwords.

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That doesn't make sense.

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undifferentiated.

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you alluded, to the difference between

lead gen and demand gen, and maybe

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just for the benefit of, people

that, don't have that distinction

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firmly in their minds, how would

you summarize that in a nutshell?

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Sidney Waterfall: Yeah, so lead gen is

really the act of marketing to acquire

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an email address or a singular lead.

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It's very conversion based,

at a very high level.

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And the goal is volume, not necessarily

quality, it's kind of an assembly line.

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You know, this goes back to gated

content webinars, just to get people

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to consume them, register and get

the email addresses to pass to sales.

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I think it's also a little

bit of a mindset too.

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It's not just necessarily the

tactics, it's like ingrained

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in mindset in the organization.

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It's kind of built into an operating model

the demand gen approach, which there's so

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many different definitions of demand gen,

but what we think is really this concept

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of creating demand, capturing demand, and

converting demand, and that's doing that

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In a buyer-centric way, so I

can break down the definitions

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of those terms as well.

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demand creation is proactively educating

your target market who may not be

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aware of the problems or challenges

that solves They might not even

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be aware of your overall category,

or your overall brand reference.

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that's essentially the to 99% of people

creating demand a demand gen approach is

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going to be much more focused on educating

people, without having to gate that

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content or acquire information from them.

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Like a lead gen approach would be, right.

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instead of taking your, any asset

or content and . asking something,

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asking for an email address or

something in return, and then

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giving it, you're giving it upfront

and educating them a known lead.

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So think about it from like a

known lead conversion to kind

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of anonymous, education there.

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And then, demand capture.

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is really acquiring solution

aware prospects that are actively

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searching for your solution.

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this is you know that

they're actively searching.

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You can tell by the intent

based on the channel or based

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on first party intent as well.

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So think about like review

sites, Google search, high intent

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keywords, like, you know, that

they're actually in buying mode.

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So that's demand capture

then converting demand.

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Is really, once you have that demand

capture, how are you going to, guide

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them down a process, usually a sales

process, but guide them down, an

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experience to purchase a product.

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Justin Norris: I have seen over, the

past one to two years, this approach

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take shape in the marketplace, in

the sense that I can identify on

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LinkedIn, maybe on other channels, can

see they are, they creating demand.

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They're self-consciously going

out, trying to create demand.

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I would say Hockey Stack is a

company that stands out for me.

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I don't know if they're a client

of yours or not, but they seem

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to be doing a really good job.

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that from my point of view.

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the same time, I've also spoken to

people where they kind of conceptually

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understand the importance of doing this.

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They can see it.

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not the gap, the gap is more, okay, but

then wait a second, how do we measure it?

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So it's kind of like, create

demand, but, oh, wait a second.

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I don't know what the world looks

like when I go out on that and

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everything that's familiar

kind of becomes stripped away.

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and so there's a huge inertia has

been my observation, companies in

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the existing ways of doing things.

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I don't know if you've seen that too.

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Sidney Waterfall: Yeah, I would

very much agree that's one of the

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things that we've helped with the

most is kind of, okay, come in.

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I'm bought in on the methodology.

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I like this way of marketing, but like,

I'm not really sure how to make this

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strategic shift in my organization.

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And I say that 'cause it is a

strategic shift in your organization.

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It's not at the marketing level.

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not just like, oh, the marketing team's

gonna be doing some new things here, , and

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you're gonna be seeing some new stuff.

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it's, it's really a strategic shift.

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and I think measurement and then

the actual execution of the strategy

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or the two things that companies

struggle with the most order to

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actually get this off the ground.

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So how do you implement

something like this?

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Well, the first step is acknowledge

and accept that the buyer behavior

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has changed and your current approach.

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Maybe it's lead gen,

maybe it's something else.

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Who knows?

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Is maybe not as effective and you wanna

change your mindset and you wanna adopt

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this new strategic approach, right?

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You kind of have to have that

strategic mindset, saying, yes,

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I want to go down this path.

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really hard to change someone's mind.

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Justin Norris: to ask, 'cause is that

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Sidney Waterfall: yeah.

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Justin Norris: to like the CEO level,

like full board level alignment?

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how deep does that alignment need to go?

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Sidney Waterfall: I think it depends

on the size of the organization, not

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necessarily board level, but when

we get into measurement, we will

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hit on probably board level metrics.

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I definitely see the marketing

leader and the sales leader

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and the operations leader.

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So any go-to-market leadership kind

of needs to be bought in normally

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What we've seen is like marketing's

really driving the strategic change.

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However, sometimes sales will come

to us and say, Hey, like, we want you

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to help us and our marketing team.

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So it's interesting when sales

comes in as the driver, right?

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That's like, okay, let's happen in here.

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at the leadership level, not necessarily

has to be at the CEO or board level, but

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definitely at the leadership level, that

level might look a little bit different.

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If you're talking in a big org, maybe

you have global teams, regional teams,

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you know, the, you're gonna have

molar level, so maybe it's at like

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the SVP level and not the C level,

depending on structure and your internal

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politics and things like that are.

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And also like your internal trust too.

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It's a transition.

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It's not just like, Hey, switch this off,

turn this on and we'll see how it goes.

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So, You can kind of phase into it as well.

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that is step one is really

kind of acknowledging that,

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trying to change the mindset.

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And I think you just need like

two or three champions at that,

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leadership level to kind of really it.

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The next step is after you've changed

your mindset, it's measurement.

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Everything always comes back to the

KPIs, the goals and how we're being

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measured and how is the business looking

at this from a performance standpoint.

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you know, instead of focusing on a

conversion based lead approach, we

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really have to take a step back and

say, okay, you're used to, net new

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contact inquiry, lead, MQL as everything

super trackable at each of those funnel

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stages when we make this transition.

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Basically what we are doing is

we're saying we're not gonna force

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the buyer to become known to us.

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We are going to let that buyer be

anonymous until they are ready to

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convert on their time, which means

we're gonna lengthen the window

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where we don't have all this great

trackable data around that person.

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But by doing that, we're gonna

have a much better experience and

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we're going to drive better quality

conversions on higher quality offers

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than what we're doing right now.

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That maybe is less effective.

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Justin Norris: And that idea,

I think, provokes existential

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terror in some people who

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Sidney Waterfall: yes.

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Justin Norris: So you But no, but my

waterfall, my, my metrics, my funnel.

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how do you overcome those

objections when they come up?

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Sidney Waterfall: so the first thing

is to say, we take a step back and

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say, we are still going to look at

M qls, but we're gonna probably have

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a different definition of what an

MKL is than what you are used to.

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And we can still look at people

engaging with content and net new

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subscribers or net new leads, but

the volume is going to go down.

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So yes, people do kind of panic and

say, oh gosh, well how do I forecast?

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And like, how do I know?

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What are my leading indicators?

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So we kind of go through that process

with them, like, we're still gonna

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track, you know, cost per MQL and

go all the way down your funnel.

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But what the MQL means

is going to be different.

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We very much lean into, instead of

blending all M QLS together, we're

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gonna look at cost per, declared intent

hand raisers versus non hand raisers.

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So kind of splitting the funnel

there and saying, okay, and that's

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what we really like to focus on, is

when you make this change, you're

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gonna see overall m QLS go down, but

in, depending on your sales cycle.

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But in about a quarter to two quarters,

you should see your hand raises are what

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we call declared intent, MQL increase, and

the quality of those and the conversion of

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those are gonna result in more . Qualified

opportunities, pipeline and revenue.

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And so we have to really honestly

like model that out for people to see.

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So then they say, okay, well my top

of funnel volume's gonna go down.

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I'm not gonna have as much success at like

forecasting how many meetings marketing's

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gonna source, or how that top of funnel.

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But when we model that out for them,

I think it helps kind of show them,

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okay, well now we're gonna look at

this, it's gonna be lower volume.

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What else should we look at?

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So we call them kind of indicators.

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So we wanna look at, you know,

traffic to, but from all sources,

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not just paid sources, right?

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But like, traffic to

your high intent pages.

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Engagement with the

campaigns that we're running.

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Not necessarily click through

rate, but actual engagement with

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the messages and things like that.

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And you also have some in platform

conversions that you can set up

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that are limited, but they can

give you some data on view through

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conversion or direct conversion.

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Not as as it used to be some leading

indicators that you can look at, but

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it's, very much a, I have to trust this

you kind of feel like you're putting

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all your eggs in, in one basket for

like a little while until you start

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seeing those indicators come through.

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really when the aha moment comes is when.

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the pipeline.

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We can show you quarter over quarter, and

we focus on qualified pipeline or what we

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call hero pipeline, which is standardized.

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When we can show you your hero pipeline

increased 50 to a hundred percent

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and you had the same budget just

deployed a different strategy, that's

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when you're like, okay, I trust it.

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I'm ready.

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Like now let's go like all in on this.

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it ta it's a, it's baby steps.

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Any transformation is is

gonna take a little while.

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Justin Norris: And when you talk about

running a campaign, it's totally

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clear to me the way that, that and

Chris and refine labs create demand.

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Like you have smart people, you

go out on LinkedIn, you post

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interesting and provocative things.

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People engage with it, and it, drives

the conversation, in a lot of ways.

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And for a company that doesn't

necessarily have that, Already set up.

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does everybody need to find like a

Chris Walker within their own company,

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is it just about, you know, paid

LinkedIn ads that aren't gated, that

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are just more about exposure, like

there's a, a reductive way of looking

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at it, but obviously there's a more

sophisticated thought process that

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goes into planning these strategies.

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How do you think through them?

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Sidney Waterfall: Yeah, most of our

clients don't have a . Huge evangelist

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that is out there evangelizing, or a

subject matter expert that is comfortable,

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like going very public on social and

like leaning into their personal brand.

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I would say only probably 20 to 25% of

our clients have that have someone that's

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like willing to kind of dabble in that.

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I mean, half of our clients don't even

have a podcast, but we're still able

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to execute a strategy with them that is

different and kind of gets them there.

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It's funny more, more of our mature

customers that have been with us a while,

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once they start seeing results, when

they start going, then they'll say, okay,

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now we feel good about like we have this

engine going, let's, what about a podcast?

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And we're like, okay, great.

307

:

You know, , like lill air that on

as the next growth lever for you.

308

:

so it really comes down to.

309

:

you can take your existing assets

and your existing content and

310

:

repackage them in a different way.

311

:

So that's like step one, easy win.

312

:

Take your customer reviews, take your

product and solutions pages and kind of

313

:

those types of content on your website,

and you can package them up and not

314

:

just say, you know, Hey, check out this

solution, click here, but actually take

315

:

some of the content that's on those pages.

316

:

That's the value that you actually want

people to read and repurpose that into

317

:

a campaign or into a campaign angle is

kind of what we call campaign strategy.

318

:

Don't just literally copy and paste it

and put it in an ad and expect it to

319

:

work, but take that value or whatever

on your solutions page that you really

320

:

wanna get across we can communicate that.

321

:

In organic or in paid and

or both in a different way.

322

:

So I'll kind of give you an example.

323

:

Most of our, we call them product

value ads and product awareness ads.

324

:

And these are just light ways of talking

about, here's the problem that you might

325

:

be experiencing here's a way to solve it.

326

:

These is probably content that's already

on your website somewhere, hopefully

327

:

. Hopefully it's on your website.

328

:

And you're communicating what

we call problem awareness.

329

:

Like, Hey, you might have this problem.

330

:

Hmm.

331

:

I didn't ever think about it that way.

332

:

But yeah, sometimes I do

have that problem, right?

333

:

And then the product value

add is like, Hey, here's an

334

:

interesting way to solve that.

335

:

And you could solve that in like,

know, X, Y, Z using this product.

336

:

those, an example where you kind of.

337

:

Take some content you already have, you're

going to repackage that content into like

338

:

an educational and value driven way that's

slightly different than the copy on like

339

:

your website and things like a unique take

on it or have a kind of a theme around it.

340

:

And then you could

distribute that on social.

341

:

That's a very like tactical, like I don't

have any additional content resources

342

:

to create net new content for me.

343

:

So like what can we do in the meantime?

344

:

That's typically where we start.

345

:

And then from there also work with content

teams A lot of times you might have a

346

:

defined point of view or content strategy

that is communicated not on social.

347

:

or not on certain avenues.

348

:

so maybe you have some really great blog

posts that point out great problems, great

349

:

solutions, just great thought leadership,

but it's not articulated in a great way to

350

:

repackage on social or repackage in video.

351

:

you can do that, at a high level, like

if we were starting from scratch with

352

:

someone in a content team, we would

say, great, let's document, hopefully

353

:

you have a defined point of view.

354

:

Let's look at your content strategy.

355

:

Then we're gonna create content that

is educational, differentiated, and

356

:

valuable to your market, not necessarily

to your core buyer, but to your market.

357

:

Then we're gonna distribute that content

in a buyer-centric approach, which means

358

:

ungated designed for the platform that

we're going after, then you're gonna

359

:

package that content in a way that's

. Unique, which is where creative comes in.

360

:

The key here is then having

something to, anchor that content to.

361

:

So if you do have a live event series

or you do have a podcast or you do have

362

:

something that can engage with that isn't,

know, request a demo or isn't, you know,

363

:

sign up for my product tour, you need to

kind of have some type of thing in the

364

:

middle that people can still learn from

you and engage from in a, in a nice way.

365

:

Like for us, it's our podcast what

we route everybody to is our podcast.

366

:

then from there it's to our live events.

367

:

Not to say everybody needs that,

but that's kind of an example.

368

:

Justin Norris: Have you ever

seen this approach not work?

369

:

I know that's a a strange question,

but in, in a sense, can it work

370

:

for everyone or are in some cases,

do you hit roadblocks of certain

371

:

things that need to be resolved?

372

:

Like actually you don't have

your message worked out, kinda

373

:

like what we were talking about.

374

:

You're not speaking the right

language, or are there other factors

375

:

that might affect whether this

can be effective for a company?

376

:

Sidney Waterfall: If you do not

have a basic, decent, repeatable,

377

:

somewhat repeatable sales process,

I wouldn't, I wouldn't start, I

378

:

wouldn't start trying to create demand.

379

:

cause then it's just gonna be

a little bit of a nightmare.

380

:

So you need to kind of

have some sales basics.

381

:

You don't need to have a huge

sales robust engine, huge flywheel

382

:

with, you know, you got everything

figured out, but you need to have

383

:

Okay.

384

:

We know how to talk to prospects.

385

:

We know what they care about.

386

:

We can, we can consistently like,

convert prospects from meetings

387

:

into pipeline, into closed one.

388

:

And the reason I say that is

because you need to know what

389

:

it is actually resonating with

a buyer when they are ready to

390

:

convert when they are ready to buy.

391

:

If you don't know how to convert a

buyer, when they're ready to buy,

392

:

you're not gonna know and figure out

and be effective of creating demand.

393

:

I've never seen that done.

394

:

I'm sure someone will, you know, say

something or prove me wrong, I'm sure.

395

:

But, like I've never seen that.

396

:

Justin Norris: I really appreciate

you explaining Like the demand

397

:

creation process broken down that way.

398

:

I've probably listened to, I don't know,

a hundred, demand Gen live or revenue

399

:

vital podcasts, like the, just the

specifics of like, how does it act?

400

:

You know, the type of person I wanna

know, like how does it actually work?

401

:

And that really explains a lot.

402

:

I want to just shine a spotlight

for a second on the role of ops.

403

:

We're speaking about go

to market more broadly.

404

:

But I have kind of an ops centric here.

405

:

what should that role

be within go to market?

406

:

Because it varies a bit, I think

between marketing and sales ops.

407

:

but we often tend to be very tech

focused or focused on territory,

408

:

compensation, planning, stuff like that.

409

:

What's the, evolution, if any, from

your point of view that ops teams need

410

:

to make to perform at their highest

level within this type of motion?

411

:

Sidney Waterfall: For the record, I just

also consider myself kind of an ops nerd,

412

:

so I love talking anything Salesforce

marketing automation all the time.

413

:

So I think that's honestly

why you and I just get along

414

:

so well, our previous chats.

415

:

So that's just for the record, but I think

ops is a very crucial and like pivotal

416

:

part of a successful go-to-market team.

417

:

I think without it you are . , like,

I don't even know what you're doing.

418

:

However, , what I see with ops

happen I mean, it's very similar to

419

:

every, any function in your Go-to

market team, you're gonna want a

420

:

strategic side and you're gonna want

a creative kind of side, and you're

421

:

gonna want a tactical execution side.

422

:

I look at that the same way

I would look at any org.

423

:

You want that in marketing,

you want that in sales, you

424

:

want that in customer success.

425

:

And so I think that is how I would say

like the best operations or whatever

426

:

you wanna call operations teams these

days, I, I think that's how they operate.

427

:

So strategic to kind of execution.

428

:

What I have seen, and I think it's

no fault of operations, I just think

429

:

it's the mindset of, well that is a

very tactical, analytical function.

430

:

Like maybe it's a less strategic function.

431

:

I'm like, absolutely not . I'm like,

if ops is a strategic function in

432

:

your org, you are going to like

a powerhouse org, in my opinion.

433

:

And I, I see that from like orgs

that operate at a very high level.

434

:

So I think they, sometimes fall down

and there's a lack of understanding

435

:

from operations team of just like

the overall customer journey how

436

:

like sales and marketing and success

really fit together as a function.

437

:

And this is something I've learned

as a marketer in my department, is

438

:

in order for me to be successful at a

strategic level, I need to understand.

439

:

How sales works.

440

:

I don't need to execute sales, but I like

really need to understand how sales works.

441

:

I need to be involved and understand

that function and understand

442

:

their pains and their needs.

443

:

And the same thing with ops.

444

:

I think that's why I love ops is I

sometimes will do ops, like I run our

445

:

whole HubSpot and Salesforce and things

like that I love jumping in and helping

446

:

clients with like ops specific things.

447

:

So I have some execution in ops, but

that doesn't mean you need it, but you

448

:

really need to understand their role,

their value, what their day-to-Day is,

449

:

and like the overall function and how

it fits into the rest of the business.

450

:

And I think that's honestly the

same if you wanna be a leader

451

:

in any org that you're in.

452

:

and so that's kind of where I see ops

not like pushing the boundaries of

453

:

I'll just give you a quick example.

454

:

understand marketing tech,

understand how it all works.

455

:

can do anything in analytics, pull

any report for you, but they're not,

456

:

actually giving you insights about the

report or what the data means, or what

457

:

you should do with the data, right?

458

:

Like, that's like the step up.

459

:

and this is not a generalization.

460

:

I, I'm not like trying to

like make anybody mad here.

461

:

This is just what I've seen.

462

:

But the people that understand, ah,

that's how a marketing campaign works

463

:

and I understand how those channels

work and I understand how customers

464

:

would interact with those channels,

then they also understand the data

465

:

and they're proactively giving

insights to the CMO or to whoever.

466

:

I'm like, that is the value

of the strategic ops person.

467

:

Justin Norris: agree.

468

:

the light bulb moment for me,

yes, my team is here, we are

469

:

in service of, revenue teams.

470

:

We're helping them, we're enabling them.

471

:

But you can't perceive yourself

as separate from that and

472

:

not having accountability.

473

:

that.

474

:

You really do need to perceive yourself

as a revenue leader in your own right.

475

:

you affect and help that

revenue, you know, come into

476

:

being is a little bit different.

477

:

You're not selling directly or,

or marketing directly per se, but

478

:

you're still there drive strategy,

helping challenge what's happening.

479

:

And I think that mindset shift really

elevating for operations teams.

480

:

Sidney Waterfall: I would agree.

481

:

I think the, the dynamic duos that I've

worked with or seen is . The marketing

482

:

leader and like the head of rev ops, who

is very strategic or whoever it does,

483

:

titles, whatever, it doesn't matter.

484

:

. it's interesting 'cause I'm

seeing a lot more titles and

485

:

job descriptions around that.

486

:

Like, to market strategist or Go-to market

strategy and analyst and you know, or

487

:

rev ops, like strategists and analysts.

488

:

And I'm like, oh, like I think

it's going in the right direction.

489

:

But I think that would be my advice

to anyone, not just operations people.

490

:

This is not like picking on ops at all.

491

:

I think anyone that's trying to

get to a strategic level in any

492

:

org, you need to understand how the

other orgs fit in and you need to

493

:

elevate like all of them together.

494

:

Like when I look back at my career

and you how, you get from A to B?

495

:

I was like.

496

:

I just started going outside of my

lane and trying to figure out like,

497

:

Hey, this, SDR conversion was awful.

498

:

Why?

499

:

How can I fix that?

500

:

Like, what was it an issue in

their system like, or is it

501

:

something marketing is doing?

502

:

Is it something I could improve?

503

:

Is it something like I could work

with our Salesforce admin to improve?

504

:

So I would you know, just kind of take

that mindset of like, Hmm, well let

505

:

me go talk to the marketer who's like

responsible for these campaigns that

506

:

I don't think are doing very well.

507

:

Or maybe they're doing great, or

maybe you don't know if they're doing

508

:

great or not, but you should have

that conversation like, well, what

509

:

do you think about these results?

510

:

Are these good results to you?

511

:

Or why or why not?

512

:

Kind of educate each other on

that, I think is a good like

513

:

tactical tip that anyone can take.

514

:

Justin Norris: So you gave me a good

pivot point there to talk about and

515

:

attribution, which is a huge topic.

516

:

I know that labs is a particular point

of view on this, I want to talk through,

517

:

then I also want to even just talk

through, you know, everyone has their

518

:

own taxonomy and, and terminology around

channel and source and things like that.

519

:

So just curious, if you were to come

in, you know, set up a, a Salesforce

520

:

or a HubSpot or whatever from scratch,

would you instrument it to track the

521

:

things that you think are important to

measure this type of go-to-market motion?

522

:

Sidney Waterfall: Yeah,

this is a great question.

523

:

I feel like we could do a whole podcast

on just this, to be honest with you.

524

:

yeah, if I were to come in and set

something up from scratch, I will kind

525

:

of give you an overview of how I might

look at that and how I might do that.

526

:

So, your marketing automation system

is, depending on what you use,

527

:

is gonna track something, but you

need to understand what that is.

528

:

HubSpot, the way that they track original

source is very different than like

529

:

Marketo the first thing that I would make

sure, I'm just gonna go from the top of

530

:

the funnel down and not necessarily I

would do it in this order because the

531

:

first things first is I was always,

would actually probably fix current

532

:

sales that are happening in Salesforce

533

:

but I would make sure that we

have, standardized UTMs and we're

534

:

actually . talking about UTMs in

the same way as an organization.

535

:

So source medium, campaign term, and

defining and having those values set as

536

:

like, are the values we use for source,

these are the values we use for medium.

537

:

a big proponent of,

session-based, UTMs specifically.

538

:

So being able to not only track the

UTM that got you to the site, making

539

:

sure that we have cookie tracking set

up to track, you know, first touch

540

:

and also session-based UTMs so that

when someone does convert on a form

541

:

or when they do become known, I can

know what UTMs drove the session that

542

:

resulted in that known conversion.

543

:

a lot of times that's a huge thing

in that I see is they're tracking

544

:

etms, but it's not associated with the

actual session that they became known.

545

:

It's like the very first touch

that they ever came to the site.

546

:

are important.

547

:

Justin Norris: you maintaining,

sorry to jump in, but are you

548

:

Sidney Waterfall: yeah.

549

:

Justin Norris: a parallel set

of fields like first touch and

550

:

most recent, or first touch and,

551

:

Sidney Waterfall: yeah.

552

:

First touch and last.

553

:

Justin Norris: like that?

554

:

Sidney Waterfall: Yeah.

555

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

556

:

Okay.

557

:

Sidney Waterfall: So you'll notice

that first, last and conversion

558

:

are gonna be common themes through

all these different data points.

559

:

and this is not like.

560

:

, you could do multi-touch.

561

:

This is like outside of any

attribution opinions you may have.

562

:

This is just like

straight funnel tracking.

563

:

I think that you should

have . so same thing, UTMs.

564

:

You got first touch, we say conversion

touch, which is like the session that

565

:

actually drove the conversion, if you have

it or if you know, where was the refer?

566

:

Was it organic direct

referral or UTM based, right?

567

:

And so that's gonna tell

you a lot of information.

568

:

And then we go to the next phase,

which refer to as a conversion.

569

:

A conversion is anytime your

sales team is working something.

570

:

So the reason we say that is MQL is

really thinks about is that's only

571

:

when marketing sends leads to sales.

572

:

I actually wanna track.

573

:

A conversion.

574

:

Anytime sales is working on something,

whether they're going outbound, whether

575

:

they're getting a referral from a

partner, whether they, you know, got

576

:

a sales sourced dmm, like I don't

care what it is, I don't care if it's

577

:

marketing, if it's not marketing,

if I don't care where it came from.

578

:

I wanna know like, how many conversions

is the sales team working and what

579

:

is the outcome of those conversions.

580

:

so that's why we kind of go a

little bit past MQL, but MQL is the

581

:

thing that's known most to people

of like, okay, that's what I need

582

:

to track this stage, from there.

583

:

So that's what we call like conversion.

584

:

You can have multiple conversions

per, just like you have multiple

585

:

M qls per person or per account.

586

:

They're kind of, you know, they

can come back in the cycle.

587

:

They can go out of the

buying cycle, come back in.

588

:

and then from there, . I want to track

meeting booked, meeting, sat meeting, you

589

:

know, deferred or something like that.

590

:

No-show, all those things.

591

:

I wanna track that funnel stage

in the sub stages of that.

592

:

And then I'm gonna, probably gonna

track like what, depending on your sales

593

:

cycle, but what happens next normally

is opportunity create sometimes the

594

:

opportunity after the meeting, after

sales accepts it, whatever that is in

595

:

your sales process, whatever occurs,

I would say at least generate an

596

:

opportunity at that point, if not before.

597

:

And then the sub stages of

those within the opportunity.

598

:

I'm also going to stand up what,

uh, we call as a high intent revenue

599

:

opportunity, which is kind of one of

our branded terms, hero for short.

600

:

And basically what that does is it looks

at all of your opportunities from all

601

:

sources, and it's going to look by source.

602

:

what is my opportunity stage that

converts at 25% higher win rate.

603

:

The reason we do that is just 'cause

not all leads are created equal.

604

:

Not all pipeline is created equal.

605

:

So an outbound sourced opportunity might

convert different than a product based

606

:

opportunity or a website declared intent.

607

:

And it's not surprising that they

convert differently in the funnel.

608

:

And then I'm gonna track closed one.

609

:

The layer on top of that, those,

that's kind of the core funnel stages.

610

:

The layer on top of that is,

I wanna know, the source.

611

:

So like, where did the buyer, when

I say source, I'm talking about

612

:

where did the buyer come from?

613

:

A lot of people will initially think

campaign, oh, you wanna think campaign?

614

:

Campaign is.

615

:

detailed of that.

616

:

But I wanna think, how I explain

it to some people is like, the

617

:

offer, what did the buyer do?

618

:

Not what we did, but what

did the buyer interact with?

619

:

Did they interact with a webinar?

620

:

Did they interact with sales?

621

:

Did they interact with an event?

622

:

Did they interact on our website at

a chat bot or a demo or a contact

623

:

us or did they interact with just

signing up for our newsletter?

624

:

So it's more of like what

the buyer engaged with.

625

:

That's what I wanna know.

626

:

Justin Norris: you're, when you're

talking source, you're thinking

627

:

about the term that I would

usually use for this is offer,

628

:

Sidney Waterfall: offer.

629

:

Yes,

630

:

Justin Norris: with

631

:

Sidney Waterfall: yes.

632

:

Justin Norris: de, the destination.

633

:

Okay.

634

:

Sidney Waterfall: Yeah.

635

:

The destination that they engaged with.

636

:

And I look at that actually

first before channel.

637

:

I wanna know what they did first,

and then the second question is, I

638

:

wanna know where did that come from?

639

:

I don't wanna know where did they

come from and then what they did.

640

:

Yeah, typically, depending on the

question I'm trying to answer,

641

:

but generally that's how I'm gonna

look at a funnel, what did they do?

642

:

And then you'll dig into where did

they come from and, you know, what

643

:

TMS were associated to it and what

self-reported distribution was

644

:

associated to it, if applicable.

645

:

then kind of drill into those

different campaign layers, UTM

646

:

layers, data layers underneath that.

647

:

Justin Norris: because what they did is

typically more predictive of outcomes

648

:

Sidney Waterfall: yes.

649

:

Justin Norris: where they came from.

650

:

Sidney Waterfall: That,

651

:

Justin Norris: I've,

652

:

Sidney Waterfall: that's what we've seen

consistently across multiple data sets.

653

:

a more consistent predictor of what

their, conversion is going to be in the

654

:

funnel and then where that they came from.

655

:

Can also give you a little Oh,

I think that contact us from

656

:

Organic or direct is probably gonna

have a higher conversion rate than that.

657

:

Contact us from, I don't

know, this review site.

658

:

Why?

659

:

Well, you know, we've got historical

data to show that, but also if you

660

:

think about it logically, someone's

coming directly to you to convert

661

:

versus they're on a review site.

662

:

They probably converted on CTAs

for four different companies.

663

:

Justin Norris: And for campaign that's

still at the offer level, like, the, the

664

:

source or offer and the campaign exists

in a sort of parent-child relationship.

665

:

Sidney Waterfall: yeah.

666

:

Justin Norris: there a similar,

similar thing on the channel side,

667

:

or do you just call it sub-channel?

668

:

How do you define

669

:

Sidney Waterfall: yeah.

670

:

Uh,

671

:

Justin Norris: have a paid, paid

search and then AdWords and Bing and

672

:

whatever else underneath that category?

673

:

Sidney Waterfall: yeah.

674

:

category and then we use category

group, but it's like channel

675

:

sub-channel category, subcategory.

676

:

So, the roll up fields are just easier

for reporting and I would say board or

677

:

executive or QBR type . data versus,

so you'll say, you know, paid social

678

:

and then you have all your paid social,

Facebook, Instagram, meta, you know,

679

:

LinkedIn, TikTok, I don't know, Reddit,

whatever you're doing on paid social.

680

:

Then you're gonna have, you

can have organic social and

681

:

then you have your channels.

682

:

can break into that way as well.

683

:

Justin Norris: Now implicit in

what you just described is of a

684

:

different, funnel structure than

what I think many of us are used to.

685

:

I think in, in B two B for a long time,

we have, you know, lead M-Q-L-S-Q-L,

686

:

you know, that waterfall, that serious

decisions waterfall in various stages of

687

:

complexity just drilled into our brain.

688

:

Our view of reality is wired that way.

689

:

And this is one of the things we

were chatting about a bit by email

690

:

to this recording, you know, Chris

has talked about in one of his

691

:

podcasts how this kind of creates an

operating system for a company like

692

:

Almost without you realizing it.

693

:

It just becomes an implicit way

of structuring budget and KPIs

694

:

and how you report to your board.

695

:

So everything's wired that way.

696

:

And you, are working on a

different sort of model.

697

:

just to expand on that a little

bit, how is it different?

698

:

Why?

699

:

'cause you could kind of say, say, well

we have conversions and we have, it's

700

:

maybe just a different word for mql, but I

think you mean something deeper than that.

701

:

So I just wanna understand

it a bit better.

702

:

Sidney Waterfall: definitely.

703

:

So I would just wanna double tap on

that point of the demand waterfall is

704

:

very much ingrained I think about how

I set up everything, how you report on

705

:

everything, what actions you do, whether,

you know, you kind of realize it or not.

706

:

Like if you take a step back and

you're like, oh yeah, like , if

707

:

you actually think about it.

708

:

and why we're seeing this funnel being

questioned in the marketplace and

709

:

being pressure tested is because it's

a scalability game with that funnel

710

:

and it's a very assembly line approach.

711

:

And as we're seeing in the market,

. teams are kind of breaking down silos.

712

:

They're going into more of a revenue based

team where maybe they're not comped on,

713

:

individual department things, but they're,

Hey, we wanna have marketing and all these

714

:

people comped on this one main metric.

715

:

And then maybe you have sub metrics

based on your role or things like that.

716

:

But especially if you see at the executive

level or leadership level, you also have

717

:

this concept of, you know, ABM and kind

of moving to an all bound approach where,

718

:

you know, the buyer journey is not linear.

719

:

They're gonna come and interact

with multiple things and they're

720

:

gonna come in market and outta

market at different times.

721

:

So like, how do you track that?

722

:

And that model kind of forces

you to track it in a certain way.

723

:

So give you some examples.

724

:

So.

725

:

. I would say one, it's a singular and

blended funnel and I think that's

726

:

the biggest thing that we're seeing.

727

:

And companies are kind of themselves

trying to like break it apart and

728

:

break it into sub funnels or sub

stages or sub things in between

729

:

to track different outcomes.

730

:

And when you blend everything

together, you don't forecast as

731

:

accurately as you probably could.

732

:

You don't spot insights and things that

are going well and or not going well fast.

733

:

And so those are two big things.

734

:

And I would say the last, I mean I

could go on and on, but the three

735

:

biggest things is, those two that I

just mentioned, and I think the, it's

736

:

built around internal departments

versus what the customer is doing and

737

:

how the customer is engaging with you.

738

:

I think that's core.

739

:

I think philosophical and

mindset differences of the model

740

:

that we're kind of working on.

741

:

and Sure, on paper every funnel

is gonna like, look like a funnel.

742

:

Step one, step two, step

three, step four, right.

743

:

. Sure.

744

:

But, when we actually break

down the model, there's a

745

:

couple things that we are doing.

746

:

We're expanding it to look at

the entire go to market funnel.

747

:

Not just marketing and sales, but

really what the buyer is doing.

748

:

So there's a couple key innovations I'm

gonna start at the bottom of the funnel.

749

:

The concept of pipeline sources.

750

:

Again, this is what is the buyer

interact with at the time when they

751

:

were ready to convert and talk to

sales, not what department did what

752

:

because sales can drive a website

conversion just as much as marketing can.

753

:

Actually, some of the top reps

are probably really great at that.

754

:

, or sales can get a declared intent

conversion in their LinkedIn dms or

755

:

through a referral through their network.

756

:

They're still getting hand raisers.

757

:

They're just getting it in a

different way, and the buyer is

758

:

converting in a different way.

759

:

Same thing with events.

760

:

so it's really kind of like all of these

things are working together, so let's

761

:

remove the internal politics out of it

and just focus on what the buyer did.

762

:

did the buyer do at the time

of opportunity or conversion?

763

:

And so pipeline sources and splitting

that out is a key differentiator, and

764

:

you kind of have funnels underneath that.

765

:

Then you have your normal opportunity

stages and you're gonna go through your

766

:

sales process that's particular to the

sales org underneath those, within that.

767

:

. When we say pipeline, we are

gonna talk about hero pipeline.

768

:

So we're standardizing pipeline,

just like I mentioned, based

769

:

on your own historical data.

770

:

Factual, not subjective definition.

771

:

that is going to be standardized

based on the win rates.

772

:

What stage do you reach?

773

:

25% win rate.

774

:

Maybe that's stage three,

just making this up.

775

:

And then events, maybe it's stage

four, maybe outbound, it's also

776

:

stage four, maybe partner and your

partner affiliates and referrals.

777

:

Maybe it's stage three, two,

maybe it's higher in the funnel.

778

:

But then when you say, here's what

pipeline we have, it's standardizing that.

779

:

So removing subjectivity from some

of the definitions as much as.

780

:

Possible.

781

:

so pipeline sources are standardized

and so is the definition of pipeline

782

:

underneath the pipeline sources.

783

:

The key is you have to separate things

out in order to standardize them.

784

:

you kind of go up the funnel,

which is the idea of a conversion,

785

:

not a marketing qualified lead

and then a sales accepted lead.

786

:

It's a revenue conversion.

787

:

It's not what marketing got

someone to do something.

788

:

It's anytime sales is actively spending

effort on something, a revenue conversion.

789

:

And then of those conversions, how

many make it to the next step, right?

790

:

So we're looking at it like, across all go

to markets there versus that traditional

791

:

assembly line, which is . Marketing did

something, then sales is gonna review

792

:

it, then sales is gonna accept it.

793

:

And so now we have these

different funnel stages.

794

:

It's kind of one revenue focus there.

795

:

Justin Norris: there's a challenge

here, which I find is common to

796

:

all account-based funnels where,

you have people with potentially

797

:

multiple conversions, and then

798

:

Sidney Waterfall: yep.

799

:

Justin Norris: in, you know,

all gets kind of narrowed down

800

:

into a single opportunity.

801

:

How do you calculate those metrics in a

standardized way that they're meaningful?

802

:

Sidney Waterfall: Yes.

803

:

That's a great question.

804

:

So there's two different

ways to look at this.

805

:

So I'll talk about how we look at it

in the model and how we like would set

806

:

it up for someone in a model versus

how you might look at, me, a different

807

:

question to answer, which is how was our

account total buyer journey look like?

808

:

You know?

809

:

so you have to draw a line

in the sand somewhere.

810

:

that's with anything, you're

going to have to do that.

811

:

So what we look at is the originating

contact on the opportunity.

812

:

and then we kind of look at that

and look at that conversion.

813

:

So, you know, some will say, well,

it's not the, the originating contact.

814

:

And then they became, you know, not the

primary contact and then we added four

815

:

other contacts and they weren't the

actual decision maker and yada yada yada.

816

:

We know that there's group buying

going on, but really what we're

817

:

trying to track is what sparked that

conversion and resulted in a sales

818

:

conversation, and then what was the

result of that conversation to revenue.

819

:

That's really as simple as it gets.

820

:

So we draw a line in the sand and say,

originating contact on the opportunity.

821

:

However, you can look at the.

822

:

Opportunity level or even the account

level and look back and see, hey, here's

823

:

like the conversions that occurred

and the order that they occurred in

824

:

not exactly how the campaign object

works in in Salesforce, but similar

825

:

like you'd be able to see that.

826

:

So when we report on it, you can

see unique conversions unique.

827

:

And then you could also see

like total like unique accounts

828

:

from those conversions would

be a way to look at that.

829

:

Justin Norris: So, just to take

a concrete example, uh, Acme is

830

:

a target account of my company.

831

:

And we may have had seven

conversions of Acme, of which,

832

:

three of them were inbound leads.

833

:

two downloaded an ebook, one a demo,

and then we were also a multithreading

834

:

and going outbound against four people.

835

:

one of the outbound people actually

ended up responding and being the

836

:

one that created the opportunity.

837

:

So of those seven conversions, they

kind of, distilled down to this one,

838

:

opportunity that was created and

that that person would become the

839

:

originating contact on the opportunity.

840

:

Am I

841

:

Sidney Waterfall: mm-Hmm.

842

:

, yes.

843

:

Yeah, and you can, I mean, I'm getting

kind of like technical and in the

844

:

weeds, but , I tend to do that sometimes

. you can, like, we have a Salesforce

845

:

managed package that does this, that

we've set up, and so you can actually.

846

:

Look at the, depending on your sales

cycle, if you wanna look at a conversion

847

:

window, like, all right, we're gonna

look back at the originating contact

848

:

and we're gonna look back 45 days

or 14 days, whatever that may be,

849

:

and we're gonna take the last one,

even if they have two, for example.

850

:

So there is an element of where

that is going to be unique

851

:

to the business, depending on

your sales cycle length really.

852

:

but then the problem that this model

is trying to solve understanding

853

:

what drove sales conversions and the

outcome of those sales conversions.

854

:

We're still very much also still trying

to solve the problem of like, how do you

855

:

effectively measure, create demand, which

I'm still, that's a gigantic problem.

856

:

We're still trying to solve , but

that's biggest problem with That

857

:

we're solving with this model.

858

:

'cause that's what people

cannot answer right now with

859

:

the models that they're using.

860

:

And then a secondary problem, which

I think a lot of people try to

861

:

answer with funnel, I don't think you

should be answering with your funnel

862

:

model, is, well, what's going on

with everybody in the buying cycle?

863

:

And what is the account journey and the

account, buying cycle journey look like?

864

:

To me, that's a completely

fundamental different question.

865

:

And I would probably use

fundamentally different data

866

:

set to answer that question.

867

:

Then what you should be using as your

operating framework and operating model.

868

:

I think that's a, at least that's how

I try to distinguish it in my mind when

869

:

people start, 'cause then they build

funnels around a buyer journey you're

870

:

in the influence model and you have

no idea what's working and what's not.

871

:

Justin Norris: that touches on the

question I was gonna ask because when

872

:

we, the definition of sales conversion

or of conversion really is, based on the

873

:

activity of a sales team, which kind of

gets a little bit into like lead scoring

874

:

or MQL threshold or the extent to which

when, sorts of actions are a salesperson.

875

:

And some companies are very permissive

and sales, you know, if you download an

876

:

ebook, sales is gonna call you versus

others are much more restrictive.

877

:

and you say, you know, I'm only gonna,

sales is only gonna reach out to

878

:

people that meet a certain threshold.

879

:

So all the things, I could go on an ebook,

downloading spree, you know, on somebody's

880

:

website and maybe I still don't reach a

threshold for sales to reach out to me.

881

:

Those things don't count as

conversions within this funnel model.

882

:

They're still part of the

account buying journey.

883

:

Like you said, that's a different

884

:

Sidney Waterfall: yeah.

885

:

You can still track them in campaigns.

886

:

You can still track

the campaign influence.

887

:

You could still, Add them to

nurture flows, you could still

888

:

score them like That's totally fine.

889

:

And every organization is going

to approach that differently.

890

:

whenever, and I think it actually, if

you take this approach and you actually

891

:

start tracking, like time sales starts

working something and you look back and

892

:

you say, okay, what, what drove that?

893

:

Was it an MQL threshold trigger?

894

:

Great.

895

:

We're gonna put that in

pipeline source, low intent.

896

:

And then you can tag that as a

program, as lead score, for example.

897

:

And we, we kinda help, or you know, we can

say, oh, this was a low intent webinar.

898

:

Follow up, whatever

the, you know, thing is.

899

:

And then you'd be able to see whenever

sales does this, is this effective or not?

900

:

Is it worth our resources or not?

901

:

Compared to sales.

902

:

Outbound or sales warm list outbound

or sales attending an event and getting

903

:

contacts and meetings booked from people.

904

:

So it's not, again, it's not

like marketing against sales.

905

:

It's like, let's just look at all of

the activities our sales team is doing.

906

:

Where are they coming from?

907

:

From a buyer point of view, what did the

buyer last do to have sales reached out?

908

:

Which to your point, you know,

organizations are gonna have sales

909

:

reach out at a bunch of different

times in that life cycle, depending

910

:

on their own specific thresholds.

911

:

But if you track it the same way,

you track everything else in one

912

:

kind of standardized funnel, it

becomes very clear to see what is

913

:

working and is what what isn't.

914

:

Justin Norris: How was a

light bulb moment for me?

915

:

Actually, how you just described

that, because you said, you could

916

:

have 500 conversions and maybe 475

of them are webinar follow ups,

917

:

Sidney Waterfall: yep, exactly.

918

:

Justin Norris: 25 that were people.

919

:

a demo request and you know, maybe half

the demo requests result in an opportunity

920

:

and maybe two of the 475 webinar.

921

:

And so you can say, it doesn't

mean that webinars aren't

922

:

important, but is that a good time?

923

:

It

924

:

Sidney Waterfall: is that a conversion?

925

:

Yeah.

926

:

Justin Norris: you consider that

a conversion makes you question

927

:

Sidney Waterfall: yes.

928

:

Justin Norris: Makes a ton of

929

:

Sidney Waterfall: and then, you

know, maybe we go create demand with

930

:

that webinar content and get buyers

into a different stage instead.

931

:

And you can still run scoring

on all your known leads.

932

:

This is not saying, you know, don't

do lead scoring and don't gain

933

:

any content the rest of your life.

934

:

Like, people are gonna do what they want

to do when they want to do it, in an

935

:

organization it, but it's just a mechanism

for like, being able to track it a little

936

:

bit better and like a more standardized

way across the revenue system, that's

937

:

more focused on the buyer and not what

team sourced it and what team gets credit.

938

:

Justin Norris: interesting how

much of this discussion gets wired

939

:

around, validation of like credit

and what's working and what's not.

940

:

Which I actually think is very difficult

to tell because even if you see, hey,

941

:

we had a hundred webinar touchpoints and

these opportunities doesn't necessarily

942

:

prove anything kinda scientifically about

whether there's any causation there.

943

:

So when you alluded to how you would look

at the account journey, what seems to you?

944

:

'cause I'm, how, how would you

take that kind of massive date

945

:

of all these things that happen?

946

:

What would you wanna look at to gain

actionable insight that would maybe

947

:

drive difference marketing behaviors.

948

:

Sidney Waterfall: When I think about

account journey or like, you know,

949

:

all the different touch points or

even campaign understanding all of the

950

:

campaign data throughout an account

or even a, a singular opportunity, to

951

:

me, I'm un trying to understand and

find patterns of what is more common

952

:

and less common at certain personas

certain levels of the organization

953

:

and certain times of the buying cycle.

954

:

That's what I look at, like . Account

journey mapping, buyer journey

955

:

mapping for, and then I'm going to

use that to go optimize my in channel

956

:

strategy and possibly investments,

but more on the strategy side.

957

:

That's really what I use that data set

for versus funnel data to me should be

958

:

very black and white of like, this is what

happened, this is what occurred, this was

959

:

the outcome of that, and let's learn what

we can and we're gonna monitor conversion

960

:

rates and we're gonna be really strict

about conversion rates and we're gonna

961

:

be really on top of SLAs and we're gonna

be, you know, I don't know, I'm more,

962

:

more strict and like watch that type of

data, like a that's like what's actually

963

:

like happening in the funnel, driving

revenue versus the other data set, which

964

:

we step back like at all data points.

965

:

That's when I think it's about pattern

recognition, understanding like,

966

:

okay, this . Webinars work really

well here, but what topics of these,

967

:

what topics actually work really

well in this stage of the journey?

968

:

Okay, let's take that topic and like

put it on some other medium than a

969

:

webinar and, and serve it up to those

people when we think that they're

970

:

at that, stage of their journey.

971

:

Also, this is a side tangent, but I think

people spend a lot, like too much time

972

:

trying to, like, especially when you

kinda take a more demand gen approach,

973

:

you don't know you, you know, buyers

aren't known for a long time and so

974

:

you don't know what stage of their, you

know, beautiful journey that they're

975

:

on that you're gonna get a journey

map for when they're done with it.

976

:

You have no idea.

977

:

So really, instead of just trying

to like over-engineer it and

978

:

create like funnels, like first

they see that, then they see this.

979

:

I take the approach of, you would

have some funnel structure, sure.

980

:

But I would also challenge you to say,

I'm gonna serve up content to these

981

:

people at a bunch of different times and

understand like when they react to it,

982

:

because the buying journey's not linear.

983

:

And they're gonna go from like, I

care about this problem one week to I

984

:

could care less about this problem the

next week 'cause it's not my priority.

985

:

And three weeks later they're

gonna really care about that

986

:

priority 'cause they have a pain.

987

:

So that's just my rant.

988

:

Justin Norris: I bumped up against

this mindset all the time when I was

989

:

in consulting, and people seem to

have this for, I want this formula

990

:

for what a buying journey looks like.

991

:

Somehow there's this archetypal

buying journey that I

992

:

Sidney Waterfall: yes.

993

:

Justin Norris: and if I discover it, I

can somehow put people down it, which

994

:

will then cause them to Become buyers.

995

:

seemed to fundamentally

misunderstand the nature of

996

:

buying and, and human psychology.

997

:

But even when I actually tried

to deliver projects with data

998

:

scientists and do these things, it

never was actually very satisfying.

999

:

People looked at it like, oh, actually,

you know, it, it is kinda this like

:

00:54:17,730 --> 00:54:23,647

deflating we came to a similar conclusion

it's less about, guess, webinars or

:

00:54:23,667 --> 00:54:26,847

eBooks or, but it's actually a lot more

about the topics and the messages and the

:

00:54:26,967 --> 00:54:27,257

Sidney Waterfall: yeah.

:

00:54:28,117 --> 00:54:30,087

Justin Norris: That seems to be

the important insight that you can

:

00:54:30,247 --> 00:54:34,127

actually use and back into your

marketing to do better things.

:

00:54:34,467 --> 00:54:34,753

Sidney Waterfall: Yeah.

:

00:54:34,833 --> 00:54:40,260

I think the best that I see

execute, really focus on like

:

00:54:40,930 --> 00:54:46,250

messaging pillars and content

pillars and when to talk about what.

:

00:54:46,807 --> 00:54:50,227

and then they go into like, you know,

distribution and things like that.

:

00:54:50,227 --> 00:54:55,187

They're more looking at patterns

for topics and pain points and

:

00:54:55,327 --> 00:54:58,990

use cases because it's impossible

to predict where someone is.

:

00:54:59,340 --> 00:55:00,430

They might really care.

:

00:55:00,630 --> 00:55:04,910

ACMO or whoever you're going after

might really care about that problem

:

00:55:05,050 --> 00:55:09,470

one day, but the next day something

else is on fire and they don't care

:

00:55:09,470 --> 00:55:10,670

about that till the next month.

:

00:55:10,758 --> 00:55:11,033

Right.

:

00:55:11,185 --> 00:55:15,097

But you still wanna be educating

them , so it's kind of a toss up

:

00:55:15,681 --> 00:55:18,891

Justin Norris: we close, I wanna give a

shout out to, two Refine Labs products

:

00:55:18,891 --> 00:55:20,131

that I know you're very involved in.

:

00:55:20,131 --> 00:55:22,811

You alluded to your managed

package, Watchtower,

:

00:55:22,811 --> 00:55:23,708

You've demoed that to me.

:

00:55:23,861 --> 00:55:26,925

tracks the funnel as well

as the attribution it.

:

00:55:27,221 --> 00:55:29,941

cool, I think a really interesting

product to look at for people that

:

00:55:29,941 --> 00:55:33,475

are interested in implementing this

and kind of getting a, a quick leg up

:

00:55:33,495 --> 00:55:36,875

to get to a solid state much faster

than if they had to build it themself.

:

00:55:37,105 --> 00:55:39,475

There's also the vault, which I

know you're very much involved in,

:

00:55:39,718 --> 00:55:43,238

has all the refine labs, playbooks,

frameworks, experiment, reports.

:

00:55:43,918 --> 00:55:46,398

have an account, I think I've

had an account since day one, and

:

00:55:46,588 --> 00:55:47,398

I've read through a lot of it.

:

00:55:47,398 --> 00:55:50,871

Really, really valuable stuff that

I think will again, just accelerate

:

00:55:50,871 --> 00:55:53,111

your learning, you're interested

in diving deeper into these things.

:

00:55:53,331 --> 00:55:56,405

So on over to, uh, the Refine Labs

website to take a look at that.

:

00:55:56,745 --> 00:56:00,165

Sydney, this was super informative,

everything I hoped it would be.

:

00:56:00,225 --> 00:56:02,925

I'm really glad that we could sit

down and, uh, and go through this

:

00:56:03,415 --> 00:56:03,635

Sidney Waterfall: Yes.

:

00:56:03,765 --> 00:56:05,365

Justin Norris: I would love to

chat again about it at some point.

:

00:56:05,758 --> 00:56:05,978

Sidney Waterfall: Yes.

:

00:56:05,978 --> 00:56:06,978

Thank you for having me on.

:

00:56:07,138 --> 00:56:11,622

I love when podcasts we get a little

like in the weeds and we kind of

:

00:56:11,622 --> 00:56:15,152

get to talk about like . You know,

pull the curtain back a little.

:

00:56:15,550 --> 00:56:16,226

it's refreshing.

:

00:56:16,246 --> 00:56:19,359

So thank you for having me on and

asking me these great questions.

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About the Podcast

RevOps FM
Thinking out loud about RevOps and go-to-market strategy.
This podcast is your weekly masterclass on becoming a better revenue operator. We challenge conventional wisdom and dig into what actually works for building predictable revenue at scale.

For show notes and extra resources, visit https://revops.fm/show

Key topics include: marketing technology, sales technology, marketing operations, sales operations, process optimization, team structure, planning, reporting, forecasting, workflow automation, and GTM strategy.

About your host

Profile picture for Justin Norris

Justin Norris

Justin has over 15 years as a marketing, operations, and GTM professional.

He's worked almost exclusively at startups, including a successful exit. As an operations consultant, he's been a trusted partner to numerous SaaS "unicorns" and Fortune 500s.