Episode 21

full
Published on:

27th Feb 2024

Navigating the World of Marketing Ops Consulting - Lauren Aquilino and Sydney Mulligan

There comes a time in every marketing ops professional's life when they wonder if the grind of an in-house job is worth it after all.

Whether it's politics, overwork, lack of resources, lack of respect, a toxic boss, or one of a million other things...it might make you think, "maybe I'd be happier as a consultant."

But is the grass actually greener? What does it take to get started in consulting? Are you better off at an agency or as an independent? How do you find clients?

To answer these questions (and many more), I'm joined by Lauren Aquilino and Sydney Mulligan. With over 20 years of consulting experience between us, we have a no-holds-barred discussion on the pros and cons and how to succeed.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

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About Today's Guests

Lauren and Sydney are co-founders of EMMIE Collective - a for-hire collective of the most sought-after independent consultants and boutique firms in the marketing ops and ops adjacent space - and co-hosts of the Pretty Funny Business podcast.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenaquilino/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sydneymulligan/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:08] - Origin story of EMMIE Collective
  • [10:45] - Has the reality of the agency model met their expectations?
  • [12:48] - Becoming an independent consultant vs. joining an agency
  • [15:05] - The experience of transitioning from in-house to consultant
  • [17:20] - In-house career growth limitations for technical marketing ops
  • [18:34] - Challenges of moving from an IC to a manager
  • [21:44] - Finding clients and financial planning as a consultant
  • [24:16] - Layoffs pushing people into consulting
  • [26:42] - Commercial arrangements - hourly vs. project vs. retainer
  • [28:50] - Challenges scoping fixed bid projects
  • [30:23] - Fractional consulting models
  • [32:38] - How to ensure quality / consistency with a team of independents
  • [36:57] - Client management skills and dealing with challenging clients
  • [41:45] - The tattoo booth at MOps-Apalooza

Resource Links

Learn More

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Transcript
Justin Norris:

You're listening to RevOps FM with Justin Norris.

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Welcome to RevOps FM, everyone.

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You know, there's a time in every

marketing ops professional's life

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when they wonder if the grind of an

in house job is worth it after all.

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Whether it's the politics, overwork,

lack of resources, lack of respect,

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a toxic boss, a million other things.

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It might make you think, maybe I'd

just be happier as a consultant.

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You consider the allure of

setting your own hours, working

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with multiple companies, more

independence, maybe better money too.

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So the question is, should you do it?

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How should you get started and

what's involved in taking the plunge.

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And today's guests have both been there

and back again working on the agency

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side, the client side, and now founders

of their own agency called EMI Collective.

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They're two of the very best in the

business and also host the Pretty

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Funny Business Podcast, which

you should definitely check out.

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I'm very glad to welcome my friends Lauren

Aquilino and Sydney Mulligan to the show.

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So glad to have you both here today.

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And I really just want to start out with

like the Genesis of Emmy collective.

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How did you two get together?

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How did this whole thing get started?

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Tell me about that.

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Sydney Mulligan: We operate very much.

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In the moment and opportunistically

is what I would call it.

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So, I have never really been a

person that has like a 10 year

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plan for my career or anything.

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I'm just like figuring it out as

I go and doing what seems like the

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best opportunity in the moment.

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So this was not like a long term

goal of mine to start an agency

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and I don't know whether or not it

was of Lauren's, but We came to be

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because I got laid off while I was on

maternity leave, a vintage:

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And Lauren already kind of had a

idea, so maybe you want to talk

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about the genesis of your idea.

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Yeah, so, um,

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Lauren Aquilino: I had, you know,

COVID kind of wrecked everyone's

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lives, put everyone on new pathways.

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Um, and so during that time, I was like

homeschooling a second grader and a

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kindergartner and a one year old, which

I never thought I would be doing, but I

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took a little bit of side work with two

clients that were two friends of mine.

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It ended up being more work

than I wanted to do on my own.

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And so I subcontracted some of

that work to a handful of people.

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Um.

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Most of who were moonlighting, but

there was one person who ended up,

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like, quitting their full time job.

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Even though they knew it was

gonna be, like, part time with

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me, they, uh, had a, a skincare

business that they wanna focus on.

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Snikky, she's still with us.

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And at the time, I was like, don't quit

your job, this is not, like, a real

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thing, like, I cannot be responsible

for, like, someone's mortgage.

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I just need salesforce

help every once in a while.

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And she's like, no, this

is actually perfect.

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And so we had like a little, just

like a tiny baby agency, I guess.

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We were not doing any

marketing or sales or anything.

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It was just like, these two

clients are our two clients

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and we're going to stay here.

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That is until I saw Sydney's post

about her layoff on LinkedIn.

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Like she was just saying

about opportunities.

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I was like, Oh my gosh, like if

there was a person I was going to do

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something with, it would be Sydney.

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And she and I did not know each other.

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So this is like a weird take to

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Sydney Mulligan: have.

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No, we were virtual strangers.

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Why

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Justin Norris: was Sydney the one,

why did you think that if you didn't

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Sydney Mulligan: know her?

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We had a lot of mutual

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Lauren Aquilino: friends.

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So I was at revenue pulse and

she was at a two most and we

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were both there very early.

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Like there were like three

guys and me at revenue pulse.

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And there was like three guys and her or

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Sydney Mulligan: at a two most.

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Three guys, me and one

other woman at a Dumas.

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Lauren Aquilino: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So like, I knew that we had very

similar like career trajectories,

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that she had consulting experience.

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I did somehow follow her on

Instagram, so I knew like,

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she had young kids like I did.

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She had some like,

religious trauma like I did.

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Like, you know, all of the things that you

typically want to build a business around.

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So she had posted like, I got

laid off on maternity leave.

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I'm looking for work.

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But like, mind you, Justin,

this was in February.

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And she was like, But also, I'm going to

be on maternity leave till, till August.

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So, for me, I was actually like, this

is actually perfect timing because

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if we were going to do something,

like, I don't quite have enough client

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work to, like, actually hire her yet.

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Sydney was very, like, I would love

for us to get into this story, but

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Sydney was, like, very adamant about

being an employee and, like, having a

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consistent paycheck at this point in time.

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Um, and I was like, oh, like,

Okay, yep, I can do this.

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It's going to mean that I don't

get paid, but if I want to, like,

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invest in this scenario, then this

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Sydney Mulligan: is what

it's going to have to be.

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At the time, I was, like,

experiencing trauma.

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I live in New York City.

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It's a very high cost of living area.

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I had, at the time, a two and

a half year old and a newborn.

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I got laid off six weeks into my

six month maternity leave from a

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company that I joined and planned

to care about it for a long time.

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Because they had incredible

benefits for parents.

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They were paying for my

child care for my son.

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They were about to start paying

for my child care for my daughter

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when I went back to work.

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I was on a six month fully

paid maternity leave.

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I had another child because I have

created the perfect situation where

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I can take on the financial cost of

another child, and then I lost my job.

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And separately, my husband also

lost his job at the same time.

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So I, more than anything,

needed stability.

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Like, I was not in a place

where I could Take a risk.

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I needed income.

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I was also fortunate, even though

obviously it sucked that I got laid

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off while I was on maternity leave.

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And also people often respond to that

by saying like, is that even legal?

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And I will just caveat first of all, in

America, yes, it has absolutely legal.

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Secondly, my daughter

came three weeks early.

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So I actually missed my one year

anniversary at the company by two

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days before I went out on leave.

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And.

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Uh, FMLA protection only covers you if

you've been with the company for a year.

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And FMLA actually does not cover a

mass layoff event anyway, so I don't

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think it really would have mattered.

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But they were as generous as they possibly

could have been in what was objectively

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a terrible situation to put me in.

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They kept me for my full maternity

leave, so my last day with the company

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was actually the day that I was

It's scheduled to go back to work.

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And then they gave me a

little bit of severance.

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They still paid for my son's

child care while I was on leave.

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So frankly, like, of course it was

a bad situation, but so many people

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have been laid off since then in

so much worse situations that I

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hate to really harp on it too much.

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But at the time, absolutely traumatic,

Lauren slides into my Instagram DMs and is

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like, tell me about your hopes and dreams.

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What do you want to do with your life?

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And I was like, Yeah.

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This woman does not understand

what I need right now.

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It is not this.

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I need to tell her a

number to make her go away.

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And then I told her how much money

I wanted and she was like, okay.

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And I was like, okay, all right,

well, we can keep talking.

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And I had other interviews lined up.

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I actually, I got two other job offers.

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I reached out to Wyatt and I was like,

you know, if we're actually going to talk

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about building a company together, then.

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We should probably meet in person and I

can just come to Cleveland and I'll bring

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Ellie with me and we can hash it out and

Lauren was like, No, Cleveland sucks.

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Let's go to Florida, which

like for the record also sucks.

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But it was sunny and warm.

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Yeah, I mean, it was like

March in Cleveland when we

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were having this discussion.

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It was like, not great

weather in New York either.

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So sure.

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Let's just go to Siesta

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Justin Norris: Key.

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I think you made the right

call to go to Florida.

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Sydney Mulligan: A thousand percent.

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We stayed in a mermaid themed Airbnb.

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I brought my newborn with me.

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We went to the beach.

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We had a great time, but Lauren's

whole idea was that she wanted to

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build an agency for freelancers.

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And I was like, well.

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Great news.

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Uh, I absolutely am not going to

be a freelancer, and I don't really

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understand why I would build a

business around freelancers because

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it's something that terrifies me.

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I'm like, not interested.

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And we talked about it a lot more, and you

know, eventually we got to the place where

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we want Emmy Collective to be a place

that makes it easy to be a freelancer.

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There are so many extremely talented

independent consultants already out there

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and more and more joining all the time.

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All the things that terrified me

about being a freelancer, we want to

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try to make easier for people that

are interested in taking that step.

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So for me, like, I did not want to Get

sucked into spending so much time doing

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things that I wasn't getting paid for.

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Like sitting in sales calls that

went nowhere, and chasing down

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someone's account payable, whatever.

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Having to deal with all this paperwork

just to like get any sort of income.

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Not something I was interested

in managing for myself.

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So that's something that we do at EMI.

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Like we handle all of that for our

consultants for any of the work

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that they're taking through us.

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I loved working at a TUMOS.

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I loved working at an agency, but

especially in the beginning, it was

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very scary to be on a client call

and have them ask me a question and

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not know what to say, not feel like I

could really give them a good answer.

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I felt comfortable in that situation

because I knew I could go back to my team

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and I could say to my client, like, oh,

I need to do some more research on that.

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Let me talk to my team

and I'll get back to you.

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If I was on my own, I imagine I would

feel much more afraid of that kind

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of scenario where there's really

no team for me to fall back on.

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It's more, what research can I do?

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What can I charge you by the hour

to Google until I figure it out?

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So, EMI, like, we try to provide

the best of both worlds, right?

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Like, we have the whole

collective behind our consultants.

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If they need help with something, if

they need coverage for something, if they

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just need to brainstorm with somebody,

they have access to the whole team.

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Most importantly,

everyone gets paid for it.

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And when you're at a traditional agency

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Lauren Aquilino: as well,

you get handed your work.

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And you are an employee, so

the expectation is like, X

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amount of billable hours.

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You're working 40 hours a week, typically.

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And like I mentioned, it's like,

okay, and here's the client for you.

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And you don't really have

a lot of say in that.

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And so being a freelancer, you're like,

oh, I get to like, Say no, if I don't want

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to take that job and I can work only 20

hours a week if I want that for myself.

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So we like are able to make

that a comfortable place to like

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still be that way while having

the team like Sydney mentioned.

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So

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Justin Norris: you had this vision

of an agency of freelancers.

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You know, ostensibly threads the

needle of giving the best of both

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worlds, both to you folks, to EMI,

as the agency at the front of it,

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and to the people working for it.

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So it's a really interesting concept.

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I found that very novel, and I, maybe

there's someone else out there that's

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done it, but I haven't really seen it.

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I'm just curious, has it been

everything that you hoped and dreamed?

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Like, are you on to something really good?

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Has there been any challenges

with this that you didn't expect?

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You

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Sydney Mulligan: know, we don't

want to set a revenue goal.

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I don't want to.

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I want to take the opportunities that

make sense for us as they come along.

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And I don't say that to mean that we

are like not forward looking or we don't

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try to anticipate where the business is

going to go or we're not being proactive.

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We are doing all those things to

the best of our ability, but we're

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not holding ourselves to some sort

of goal, like, rather arbitrary

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metric that we have to meet.

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Uh, so I think for us, the most

challenging and surprising thing in the

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first year was how quickly it took off.

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We did way more business in year

one than I ever expected us to do.

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I thought maybe we would hit

this level in year three or

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year four or year five, maybe.

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But, you know, it's really

resonated with consultants.

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We have a bench a mile long of people who

want to consult with us, which is great.

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There are tons of really wonderful

independent consultants out there

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right now, and we have not put a lot of

effort into marketing up to this point.

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We're planning to this year, but

we've done our podcast and we did

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Mopsapalooza and that was really it

for our marketing efforts so far.

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Um, but so much of our Business is

referral based and network based.

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And Lauren and I have been in this

space for long enough that we have

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good enough networks that have

just really taken off and supported

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our business up to this point.

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So it's working out just fine.

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It's working out a little

too well in some ways.

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Justin, I didn't want to work

this hard, but here we are.

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Justin Norris: That's amazing.

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I mean, that's the story

that you want to have.

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And what I think a lot of people do seem

to experience when they take that plunge.

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And we can talk about that.

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But first, I'm curious, and you've

alluded to it a little bit already.

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If someone is making the switch into

consulting, there are some pros and

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cons of becoming an indie, with or

without the EMI Collective umbrella

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over you, versus joining an agency.

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All three of us have had that experience.

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Let's just elaborate a little, like,

if someone is making that decision,

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what's the kind of diagnostic

for them to tell, like, where

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do I fit best of those options?

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I

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Sydney Mulligan: would say if

you have never consulted before,

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if you're looking to learn.

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and need a little bit more coaching,

being independent will be a real struggle.

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And to be perfectly honest,

we don't really work with

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consultants at that level.

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Like, we don't take on junior

consultants, even at like a lower rate.

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We don't really take on people who are

new to this and require a lot of coaching.

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It's just not really what

our business model is.

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I think there's actually also some legal

stuff related to having contractors and

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subcontracting them out in this way.

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Like, you just can't do that

with people who require coaching.

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So if you were at that stage, I

absolutely recommend you go look

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at a more traditional agency.

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It's something that

they are really good at.

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I know that that was an experience

that I really valued getting at

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a Tumos was joining when I was

still relatively new in my career.

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I had enough expertise to be

able to manage client work

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enough, but really learned a ton.

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And I imagine that you ProCuto,

although I'd be curious to hear.

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But it is not something that

you can step into lightly.

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The soft skills of consulting are

really challenging to learn in a vacuum.

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If you don't have someone who can

kind of coach you through what you are

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supposed to say to a client when they

ask you a question and you don't know

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the answer, or when you're like not

getting enough work from them to fulfill

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your hours, all these sticky client

situations are really hard to navigate.

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And if you were just completely

by yourself in your home with

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no one that you're working

with, it will be a struggle.

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In that scenario, I would

say go to an agency.

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But when you're at the place that Lauren

is, and I am, and Courtney McCarr is,

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and Jeff Castellane is, and all these

really wonderful consultants that

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are independent, where you have an

incredible network, and you've already

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established yourself as an expert in

your own right, and you really don't

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need the brand of an agency to float you.

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You will have more flexibility, you

will make more money, you will have

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a better time being on your own,

and it will probably not be as hard

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as you are imagining it might be.

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Justin Norris: I'll respond to

the implicit question there about,

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was my experience the same in it.

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To some extent it also touches

on the higher order question,

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you know, we were just talking

about should you go independent

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or should you go into an agency.

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That also already presupposes

that you've made a decision about

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consulting in general versus in-House.

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And my experience, you know, I was, uh,

at that point, maybe like five years into

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my career, maybe three years in MOPS and

had reached a place where I think many

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people reached reps in smaller companies.

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More so where you're like, I think

I'm capped at what I can actually

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contribute to this company.

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Like I really like this

thing that I'm doing.

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I want to continue to learn and grow.

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But the company doesn't necessarily need

that much more in this area and also the

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level of recognition and sort of reward

that I can get for being this expert

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in this company is kind of limited.

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So I think it's natural then

that you think, well, maybe

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I'll, I'll see what that's like.

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And then the imposter syndrome

kind of sets in because you're

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like, well, I'm really good at

X, Y, Z, but I've never done ABC.

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And are they going to know that

I'm a complete and total fraud?

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Cause I've never, you know, worked

with a life cycle modeler in Marketo

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before, or something like that.

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And it was a small agency.

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Like I think, you know, I joined Percudo

seven or eight people, like maybe

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similar to when you, you joined a two

most or when you joined New Palace Lord.

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But I think the answer is that you figure

it out and consulting for me was just like

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the perfect thing at that point in time.

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It's like, oh, I'm actually just getting

celebrated and rewarded for doing

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this thing that I really like to do.

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And if you're the type of person

that just likes to figure things

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out, give me the hard projects.

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Let me solve those challenges.

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And that was super exciting.

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So, yeah, there was certainly like a level

of support there just knowing that it's

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okay to not know in some ways because

maybe nobody else knows and you're all

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just like everyone's figuring it out.

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But yeah, I think that

was certainly helpful.

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I never had the experience of being

an independent and quite frankly,

338

:

the thought of, you know, everyone

has that thought from time to time.

339

:

Should I just go and hang up my

shingle and be an independent?

340

:

You're the immediate thought that comes,

but what if no one comes to your door?

341

:

What if there's no work?

342

:

And you hear everybody say like, oh,

we just have so much more work to

343

:

do, like, it just sort of magically

appears, but I think it's always a bit

344

:

mysterious until you take that step about

how that's actually going to happen.

345

:

Sydney Mulligan: Yeah, to your point

about being in house and kind of hitting

346

:

that threshold of I've gotten all I'm

going to get out of this experience.

347

:

I think that as back when you joined

Percudo and Lauren, when you joined

348

:

Revenue Pulse, when I joined a two most

marketing ops was a new enough field that

349

:

there wasn't such a defined career path.

350

:

And we were all kind of figuring it out

as we went, like, where does this end?

351

:

What am I going to be able to do?

352

:

I think now, with enough hindsight,

we can see, like, there are just

353

:

frankly, not a lot of companies

that have a VP of marketing ops.

354

:

There are directors of Marketing Ops

now, reliably, there are some senior

355

:

directors, but you're still, as a

technical resource, going to hit

356

:

a cap on what level you can reach.

357

:

And maybe that's fine for you.

358

:

Uh, you can either kind of hang out there,

if that works for you, that's great.

359

:

Uh, or you can go a little more general

and be a little more invested in the,

360

:

like, business side of marketing,

rather than just the technical side of

361

:

marketing, and that's wonderful too.

362

:

But if you were really energized

by working in the tech, being in

363

:

the platforms, that being your

day to day, then consulting is a

364

:

great and very natural next step.

365

:

That's where you can go to still do

the parts of your job that you love,

366

:

but get that recognition and expertise

that you're really looking for.

367

:

Lauren Aquilino: I think, like, for me

at my first company, Is definitely where

368

:

I hit that ceiling or wall, Justin,

that you were talking about, or I just

369

:

felt like I couldn't go any further.

370

:

And from there I jumped to an

enterprise company where very

371

:

quickly, if you want to get promoted

or recognition or do well, it's

372

:

Sydney Mulligan: a management track.

373

:

Lauren Aquilino: And not only did I

find myself on this management track

374

:

that I thought maybe I wanted to

be on and then was like, Oh, wait,

375

:

do I want to have my own family?

376

:

I have my own team at home that I have

to kind of manage like this is a lot.

377

:

I loved being in the technology.

378

:

And that's just not what a manager is.

379

:

It's so strange to me that like,

corporates like you're good at your job.

380

:

Do you want to manage

381

:

Sydney Mulligan: people?

382

:

You're so good at your job.

383

:

Let's have you stop doing

anything that you're good at and

384

:

instead manage a 22 year old.

385

:

It was

386

:

Lauren Aquilino: very strange.

387

:

And then like, you know, there

was some parts I think of the team

388

:

or the operation that struggled

because like, I wasn't doing the

389

:

good job that I was doing anymore.

390

:

And you can't just transfer knowledge

in some ways, you know, I can

391

:

teach them how to do something.

392

:

But I've said this before, I

can teach you how to do it, but

393

:

I can't teach you to love it.

394

:

And if you don't like love your tech

job, you're going to be like, sludging

395

:

through it rather than like, Okay.

396

:

Knocking it out so that's where i

thought like consulting was like oh

397

:

cool like i can i can get paid more

money for doing the job that i want to

398

:

Sydney Mulligan: do.

399

:

And that

400

:

Justin Norris: was my experience to

like i started managing people at twenty

401

:

seven but i still had so much to learn.

402

:

About my craft before i felt you don't

some people are just born managers and

403

:

they want to live up there and just

orchestrate people and strategies.

404

:

But I'm not that person.

405

:

Like I'm really good at coaching people

who like I've been there before and

406

:

I can help you grow in that same way.

407

:

But I feel like I need to have a

base of my own confidence to rest on.

408

:

I didn't have that, frankly, at that time.

409

:

And so where else are you going to go?

410

:

The companies don't create those

pathways for people to your point.

411

:

And so I think if you're someone

listening out there who is feeling

412

:

that like, Oh, I got to grow,

but I have to be a management.

413

:

This is what I actually love doing.

414

:

Like, you know that in your heart.

415

:

Consulting is a fantastic place

where you feel like, Oh, the thing

416

:

that I love doing and the thing

that is winning is actually a line.

417

:

Whereas quite often I speak to

managers who struggle, they're

418

:

like, Oh, I just like two hands on

and they're not managing enough.

419

:

And now they're failing for

doing the thing that they're

420

:

Sydney Mulligan: good at.

421

:

Yeah.

422

:

We've all had enough bad

managers to be a good manager.

423

:

That's the millennial experience.

424

:

At least I'm a good manager.

425

:

Cause I had so many bad managers.

426

:

I know what not to do.

427

:

And I know I needed to feel

supported in that kind of moment.

428

:

I don't necessarily

429

:

Lauren Aquilino: know what to

do, but I know what not to do.

430

:

Sydney Mulligan: But yes,

I totally agree with you.

431

:

Consulting is a great career path

if that's where you're headed.

432

:

It's funny, I was actually just talking

to someone this morning that was looking

433

:

for some, someone that reached out to

me on LinkedIn and was like looking for

434

:

some career guidance and mentorship.

435

:

And I told her the same thing

about consulting and thinking

436

:

about where you are right now and

what about your job energizes you

437

:

and excites you and what doesn't.

438

:

And like doubling down on the things

that bring you joy because your career

439

:

is long, you know, she's like 27 years

old, like you've got like probably a good

440

:

30 more years of doing this at least.

441

:

You gotta be excited about what

you're doing, not to say you can't

442

:

make a pivot at some point, but try

to be a little intentional about

443

:

where you're investing your time.

444

:

I want to

445

:

Justin Norris: go back to the finding

clients thing because I know, and I've

446

:

heard other people say like, yeah, just

my network, it just appears, but really,

447

:

all right, I'm going to be a consult.

448

:

Good news, everyone.

449

:

I founded, you know, Acme Consulting

and I'm available for business.

450

:

Like, do people just slide into your DMs?

451

:

Like, I'm thinking of the potential

listener with the feeling of trepidation

452

:

of becoming independent and like,

what am I actually going to do?

453

:

How does it actually

manifest in your life?

454

:

Sydney Mulligan: First of all,

I'm not your financial advisor,

455

:

nor am I your accountant.

456

:

So you just got to make a decision

you can live with and hire real

457

:

professionals to give you information.

458

:

But first I would say you need

to have enough savings on hand.

459

:

that the work dries up or it

doesn't pan out the way that

460

:

you're expecting, you're not gonna,

like, have your house repossessed.

461

:

So let's just start there

as a good best practice.

462

:

Okay, you need to have some savings.

463

:

That comes with some inherent privilege.

464

:

Just, that's a good, I would

not do this without that.

465

:

Secondly, if you are feeling that kind

of trepidation and you already have a

466

:

full time job, I would start by trying

to take on clients while you are still

467

:

in your full time job, as long as that's

something that your life can support.

468

:

If you can, like, put some feelers out

there with people you used to work with.

469

:

It doesn't have to be, like, I don't

really love the idea of going back to

470

:

actual companies that you used to work

at and being like, hey, I don't work

471

:

with you, I don't work here anymore,

but do you still want to work with

472

:

me, like, a little bit sometimes?

473

:

I usually, for me, I left

those companies for a reason.

474

:

I'm not interested in

them becoming my client.

475

:

But very often I have had old managers,

old colleagues that I really enjoyed

476

:

working with that I've moved on to

other companies that are familiar

477

:

with my work, that trust me, that I

would feel comfortable reaching out

478

:

to and saying, Hey, I am thinking

about starting a consulting practice.

479

:

I'm looking for some moonlighting work.

480

:

I just need like five hours a week.

481

:

This is my bill rate.

482

:

Is that something that you guys

could use some help with right now?

483

:

You would be honestly surprised.

484

:

The response you are

likely to get from that.

485

:

People are like, actually, yes, we

have this thing, can you, whatever.

486

:

Like, there are plenty of people out

there, if you have been doing this, if

487

:

you have been in your career long enough

to have a modest network, I'm sure you

488

:

can rattle off at least three or four

people that you would feel comfortable

489

:

reaching out to, and that's where I would

490

:

Justin Norris: start.

491

:

You know, everyone's situation

is different, but a little bit of

492

:

short term pain, in terms of your

evenings and weekends, to have,

493

:

not be starting from a cold start.

494

:

You know on day one.

495

:

Sydney Mulligan: Yeah, I mean it would

certainly be terrifying and some people

496

:

are just really comfortable taking a big

swing like that and more power to you.

497

:

I'm not.

498

:

I wouldn't.

499

:

I would wait.

500

:

I would make sure I had enough cash

on hand and I would at least have

501

:

one or two clients lined up before

I actually quit my full time gig.

502

:

Justin Norris: Well, if there's

anything nice that can be said about

503

:

the layoff bloodbath that's become

the new normal, unfortunately, in tech

504

:

industry is that I've seen that it's

pushed a lot of really good people into

505

:

taking the plunge, I think, because

it's kind of like nothing to lose now.

506

:

I don't have a job.

507

:

I have maybe a few months of cushion

because I've gotten some severance

508

:

and it's really hard to find jobs.

509

:

So it's like, yeah, The universe has

actually pushed, like I've seen a lot of

510

:

really senior people go this direction

511

:

Sydney Mulligan: now.

512

:

Absolutely, and by the same token,

all these companies that are doing

513

:

these huge layoffs, they're losing

headcount, but the work is not gone.

514

:

And it is often much easier for

them to secure budget for fractional

515

:

support, a part time consultant, even

something like 20, 30, 40 hours a month

516

:

than it is for them to keep a senior

marketing operations manager on staff.

517

:

They can't afford to do that,

but they still need this.

518

:

So if there are consultants flooding

the marketplace, but there's plenty of

519

:

work out there too for the same reason.

520

:

For some reason, it's

521

:

Justin Norris: considered a

smart management decision to

522

:

replace FTEs with consultants.

523

:

At a higher billable rate.

524

:

I know you're saving money on benefits

and health insurance, but still replacing

525

:

someone who knows your business day

in, day out, owns it to someone who

526

:

Sydney Mulligan: doesn't.

527

:

I mean, I even tell prospects that I'm

talking to and clients that are working

528

:

with us, like, you know, this is not in

my best interest to say this, but if you

529

:

get headcount, you should take it like

headcount is hard to come by and it's.

530

:

In many ways, going to be more

helpful to have a full time employee

531

:

than it is to have a consultant

that's with you part time.

532

:

Depends on what your needs are,

but a lot of these companies are

533

:

working with no one in marketing us.

534

:

Even large companies will have like

Uh, have gone from a team of five

535

:

or six in marketing apps to one.

536

:

And that's hard to have one person

that's managing all of the business.

537

:

As a consultant, you still need a

business stakeholder that's passing

538

:

you requirements and helping you

understand what the business needs are

539

:

and where your priorities should be.

540

:

It is short sighted.

541

:

We don't need a team anymore.

542

:

Business will

543

:

Justin Norris: just run itself.

544

:

Sydney Mulligan: It's

just going to be fine.

545

:

I mean, I think what we are going to

see is right now we have plenty of work

546

:

because all the layoffs are happening

and they still need something and

547

:

some people are bringing consultants.

548

:

In the next two or three years i imagine

we're gonna have plenty of work from all

549

:

of the tech debt that has been accrued

during this time when everyone was being

550

:

forced to run with a team that was way

too lean to do what they needed to do

551

:

Justin Norris: the bigger projects

are coming back and cleaning up

552

:

the mess that will be interesting

to see if that plays out.

553

:

So we moved a little bit into the how

you connect with the clients and i think.

554

:

A lot of people starting out like,

all right, this is my hourly rate.

555

:

And it may fall by default into sort

of like a time and material model.

556

:

Like, okay, I'll work this number

of hours and then I'll bill you at

557

:

the end of the month or whatever.

558

:

And you can end up like 60 days

out from your money that way.

559

:

So it doesn't seem like it

actually is the smartest way.

560

:

There are a number of different, there's

projects like fixed projects, there's

561

:

retainers, there's, how do you think

about it and how do you, again, not being

562

:

financial advisors, but what are the

models that you like the best in terms of

563

:

the commercial arrangements with clients?

564

:

Sydney Mulligan: All of our consultants

kind of have different preferences too,

565

:

Lauren can probably speak to this a bit

as well, but some people really prefer

566

:

to work on like finite engagements,

like little projects, they want to like

567

:

have the variety, and we take those

on from time to time of course, but,

568

:

We really prefer to work on retainer.

569

:

Consultants tend to prefer

to work on retainer.

570

:

We typically structure it as a

certain number of hours per month.

571

:

So the like week over

week flexibility is there.

572

:

But monthly we consider it

pretty use it or lose it.

573

:

And we bill up front for the hours

so that We get paid in time to make

574

:

sure our consultants get paid in time

and no one is waiting 60 days for

575

:

their money whenever we can help it.

576

:

Yeah, I think if

577

:

Lauren Aquilino: you foresee like

a lot of time on meetings, the

578

:

hourly is the way to go because you

are literally spending your hours.

579

:

And where we've kind of gotten burnt

a little bit for project based work is

580

:

when that project turns into something

where people want to start meeting.

581

:

And it's like, I just don't I have

the cycles to sit here all week,

582

:

but I can, you know, knock out your

project, like, in five hours on a

583

:

Sydney Mulligan: Friday.

584

:

Right.

585

:

I'm, like, a little burned on projects

right now, because we've had enough that

586

:

have, like, scope creached to a place

where it was not entirely profitable

587

:

anymore, and I'm just like, no.

588

:

We will scope this work that you need to

be done, but I'm going to give it to you

589

:

as we will work on this for 40 hours a

month for three months or whatever it is,

590

:

and we will very likely get this done in

that amount of time, but we might not.

591

:

I'm not promising anything.

592

:

You're putting me in 10 hours a

week of meetings, then this is

593

:

going to be a different result.

594

:

Justin Norris: And I honestly, that's

where I got to as well, even at the

595

:

bigger agency level, where I think by

the time I left, we'd moved away from

596

:

fixed bid projects entirely, and we

could still scope them that way, but.

597

:

The challenge was, you have to become so

precise in everything in order to estimate

598

:

it clearly and have safety and remove

that element of risk, and people are still

599

:

unhappy because they're like, oh, sorry,

we can't attend your meeting, like what

600

:

you said, so it's way better to be like,

here's the hours, these hours represent

601

:

this project and I will spec it out in

detail so that you feel the confidence

602

:

that I've understood your needs and you're

going to get what you want, but it's

603

:

still at the end of the day and it's, it's

604

:

Sydney Mulligan: hours.

605

:

It's a win for the client too, right?

606

:

Like, they have more flexibility.

607

:

I, this is how I talk to

people about it all the time.

608

:

Like, you were telling me right now

while we are scoping this that you

609

:

have reached out to me because you

have this specific need and that

610

:

is what you want us to work on.

611

:

That's great.

612

:

That's how we'll scope it.

613

:

But by the time the ink dries and we

have a consultant onboarded and you're

614

:

ready to roll, like, who knows what's

going to change with your business.

615

:

You might have something else that's way

more pressing and now you have access

616

:

to this expert who can help you with it

and a flexible amount of hours to do it.

617

:

I think it's really a win for everybody.

618

:

And to your point about the scoping, you

are either spending so much time doing the

619

:

scoping work for free to get it precise

enough to have it accurate, or you're not,

620

:

in which case you're inflating the price

of the project to hopefully not eat it.

621

:

So the client's paying more for the work

overall, or you're just getting it wrong,

622

:

you know, and you're taking a loss on it.

623

:

Like those are not winning

scenarios for anybody.

624

:

What do you

625

:

Justin Norris: folks think

about the fractional model?

626

:

You know, all of a sudden, everybody's

a fractional something or other.

627

:

Do you do fractional?

628

:

What do you think about it?

629

:

Sydney Mulligan: Fractional

is just a fancy word for a

630

:

consultant working on a retainer.

631

:

That's all it is.

632

:

Part time.

633

:

Lauren Aquilino: Or part

time for several, I guess.

634

:

If you're planning on having

more than one client, then I

635

:

guess then you're fractional.

636

:

Otherwise, you're just working part

637

:

Sydney Mulligan: time.

638

:

No, I mean, I think fractional is

just business talk for part time

639

:

because part time makes you think

you're working at an ice cream parlor.

640

:

Like, fractional is just This

is either not my only gig or

641

:

not something I do full time.

642

:

Like we're all fractional, like I'm a

643

:

Lauren Aquilino: fractional mom, I guess.

644

:

That sounds terrible.

645

:

Part time mom because

I'm working right now.

646

:

I'm a fractional

647

:

Sydney Mulligan: podcast host.

648

:

Justin Norris: Fractional

grocery checkout clerk.

649

:

I don't work part time, I

just do it fractionally.

650

:

Sydney Mulligan: Yeah, you work

651

:

Lauren Aquilino: at the market as

652

:

Sydney Mulligan: a checkout girl.

653

:

I do self checkout, so I'm a

fractional grocery checkout person.

654

:

I mean, it does

655

:

Justin Norris: seem to be more

associated with like an executive role,

656

:

somebody who's at a more senior level.

657

:

Sydney Mulligan: Well,

658

:

Lauren Aquilino: Sydney, we use the

term fractional for some of our teams,

659

:

like we'll build you a fractional team.

660

:

How would

661

:

Sydney Mulligan: you describe that?

662

:

Yes, it is fancy talk for a

team of part time consultants.

663

:

Like we build like a fractional mops team.

664

:

We've done this for several clients now.

665

:

Anytime we're staffing more than one

consultant together on a project,

666

:

there are usually different types of

consultants, or the scope of work is such

667

:

that it really requires more than one

consultant to fulfill it, even if they're

668

:

really the same kind of consultant.

669

:

We call those fractional teams.

670

:

Like this is your, you're not

hiring a full, you know, five

671

:

person marketing ops team.

672

:

That's not in the budget right now.

673

:

You don't have the headcount for it.

674

:

So you have a fractional

marketing ops team.

675

:

We're going to give you seven part

time marketing ops consultants and

676

:

campaign ops people, project manager,

Marketo admins, data pipeline engineer,

677

:

like all the different things that

you need that you cannot afford to

678

:

take on full time headcount for.

679

:

You still need this level of expertise.

680

:

You still need this type of

specialist and we have it for you.

681

:

Fractional.

682

:

Justin Norris: So it is jargony,

but it sort of does mean something.

683

:

And I think you just touched as

well on one of the challenges

684

:

of being truly independent.

685

:

If you have a certain skillset

and all of a sudden you have a

686

:

job or contract that maybe you're

not a Salesforce Apex developer,

687

:

but you need a little bit of that.

688

:

Now you've got to almost become the

contractor and bring that together.

689

:

Now, another curiosity, I guess, about.

690

:

The team of Indies approach one of the

big things with an agency at least as

691

:

you're scaling it and sure you've seen

this too is it's really hard to scale the

692

:

quality of the people like maybe you have

Edward and Sydney and their rock stars

693

:

and then you add people you know EF and

G and they're good but maybe they're not

694

:

as good or they're you know you start

experiencing this unevenness and you're

695

:

growing and that is where I've seen a lot

of growing pains where all of a sudden

696

:

you're not getting the same results as

you were you With your core A players that

697

:

you started, and now you have to invest

a lot of work in like training, process,

698

:

guardrails, to scale that consistency.

699

:

With a team of indies, like you

said, you're working with people

700

:

that are pretty well established now.

701

:

Are you just relying on that?

702

:

You know, these are people that already

know what they're doing, or how do you

703

:

deal with the fact that like, Courtney

does things a little bit one way and

704

:

Jep does things a little bit the other

way, and it's not totally homogenized.

705

:

Sydney Mulligan: Yeah, I mean, that's

just not really our model, right?

706

:

Like, that's certainly, the Procudo

model is definitely the Atumos model.

707

:

Like, this is the Atumos framework.

708

:

This is how we do things.

709

:

It is all very homogenous.

710

:

It doesn't matter what consultant you get,

you can expect the exact same experience.

711

:

That's not what this is.

712

:

We scale differently and in many

ways easier because of that.

713

:

All of our consultants are experts because

They've been doing this for a long time.

714

:

Like I said, we don't

hire junior consultants.

715

:

We don't hire people.

716

:

Well, frankly, we don't hire anybody, but

we don't work with junior consultants.

717

:

We don't work with people who

are still learning the ropes

718

:

and require a lot of training.

719

:

Like, these are people that are

also doing this on their own.

720

:

So to that same token, Courtney

and Jeff are great examples.

721

:

We don't have an exclusive

relationship with them either.

722

:

They have their own businesses.

723

:

They both take some amount of

work with EMI, but also take work.

724

:

outside of Emmy, and

that's completely fine.

725

:

I mean, frankly, they're staking their

own reputations on the work that they're

726

:

doing, even when it's an Emmy client, so

I don't have that kind of concern about

727

:

the level of service they're receiving.

728

:

And the idea, at least, is we are

providing them with a level of support

729

:

that they don't get with work that

they're taking on their own or that

730

:

they haven't gotten before they joined

Emmy Collective, which makes it only

731

:

easier for them to be able to provide a

high level of service for our clients.

732

:

That was actually the, when Lauren and

I were in Florida and we were doing our

733

:

Very beginning vision quest slash co

founder speed dating, um, that was the

734

:

biggest thing that we came up with was,

you know, if we work with good people that

735

:

we know that we can trust to provide a

high quality of service for our clients

736

:

and we take care of them, meaning we

pay them as much as we possibly can.

737

:

Like we run on very thin margins

because we prioritize paying our

738

:

consultants as much as we possibly can.

739

:

We make sure that they feel supported.

740

:

We are not taking on clients that

we think are going to be shitty.

741

:

It is not like take any client in

the name of making a quick buck.

742

:

If something seems like it's not going

to be a good situation, we are done.

743

:

Uh, they have an escalation point.

744

:

If something is not going well, like I

can step in on any client and help them.

745

:

In that case, like, that's how

we ensure that our clients are

746

:

getting the best possible service.

747

:

And, you know, people often ask me

this in sales cycles, too, like, Oh,

748

:

well, give me a few examples that I

can interview of, like, consultants

749

:

that I could maybe work with.

750

:

Who do you have on your roster

that's available right now?

751

:

We don't do that either.

752

:

Our relationship with the

client is with all of us.

753

:

And while this has never happened,

if someone is working with one of

754

:

our consultants and it is just not

a good match for whatever reason.

755

:

Actually, this has happened one, one time.

756

:

If it's not a good match for whatever

reason, then we will pull someone else

757

:

in and make sure that they're getting the

level of service that they signed up for.

758

:

So it's just entirely different.

759

:

Like we're not selling an EMI framework

and EMI model, but it also means that

760

:

we're able to scale much more flexibly.

761

:

We don't have to, like, do that calculus

that I remember doing at a TUMOS, and

762

:

I'm sure you did it for KUDO, like, Oh,

well, we just have to make sure we sign

763

:

at least these two if we're going to be

able to hire someone, but if only one

764

:

signs, then we can hire someone, but

at a lower rate, it's going to be more

765

:

junior, they will have more training,

that will take up this person's time.

766

:

We don't have to do any of that.

767

:

We're not taking on any overhead

until there's actually work for them,

768

:

which means that we can have what

we have, which is a really beautiful

769

:

staffed bench of some of the best

people that work in marketing ops.

770

:

And we never lay off anybody.

771

:

No one works here anyway.

772

:

Justin Norris: They're not

relying just on you as their only

773

:

iron in the fire, so to speak.

774

:

You mentioned a little bit about

not having terrible clients.

775

:

The client management is a huge

part of being a good consultant.

776

:

And you, and you mentioned also about

the skills of being a consultant.

777

:

I think it's really worth emphasizing

that business of consulting is a skill set

778

:

all its own, regardless of the subject.

779

:

Like you can be a mops

expert, a platform expert.

780

:

And not a great consultant if you

don't have those, the skills and

781

:

one of those skills, there's a bunch

of them, but one of them certainly

782

:

is like client management and so.

783

:

How do you keep things on an even keel?

784

:

There's great clients.

785

:

I know great clients.

786

:

It's like life is wonderful.

787

:

One bad client in the mix and life can

stop being as wonderful pretty quickly.

788

:

So how do

789

:

Sydney Mulligan: you think about that?

790

:

We try to have boundaries with our

clients as much as possible in the

791

:

same way that we prioritize taking

care of our consultants so that we

792

:

trust that they will provide a high

level of service for our clients.

793

:

If they are experiencing A bad

client situation, we serve as the

794

:

escalation point that they can come

to and work through it with them.

795

:

Oftentimes it's like resetting

expectations with the consultant about

796

:

what this was, and you're telling me

that this is not a good experience for

797

:

you, then maybe it's because we didn't

scope this properly, or They actually

798

:

have a certain type of need that you do

not have, and this wasn't a good match.

799

:

Like, who can I bring in to support

you to make this a little bit easier?

800

:

Like, identify what the pain is.

801

:

If it is that the client is being

unreasonable in any way, I am

802

:

very happy to step in and say,

point back to our original scope.

803

:

This is not realistic.

804

:

This is not reasonable.

805

:

This is what we agreed to.

806

:

And this is what we're able to commit to.

807

:

And if that's going to be a problem, then

we can have more discussions about it.

808

:

We very rarely run into this,

but of course, you're absolutely

809

:

correct that a good client is great.

810

:

And a bad client can absolutely take

your quarter to eat up so much of

811

:

your time and emotional bandwidth.

812

:

It takes all my spoons to

deal with the bad client.

813

:

So we try to assess those

out up front if we can.

814

:

And we absolutely have like

a client block list of people

815

:

we will not work with again.

816

:

There's like

817

:

Justin Norris: toxic clients,

which I think we can all

818

:

agree, avoid, avoid, avoid.

819

:

And then there's just like, there's

people that are dysfunctional.

820

:

There's businesses that

it's harder to work with.

821

:

Obviously each consultant has their

own thing, but how do you think about,

822

:

you're not a bad client, you just

need help so that this works well.

823

:

What are those things, if

824

:

Sydney Mulligan: anything?

825

:

Often they need more support.

826

:

You know, it's often a client is

feeling like they aren't getting

827

:

what they need because they did not

sign up for enough of what they need.

828

:

I remember I had actually a situation

early in my career at a Tumos

829

:

is one of my very first fights.

830

:

Things were just not going well and I

was so inexperienced and I was so scared.

831

:

It's like, oh my gosh, I really messed up.

832

:

I'm gonna get fired.

833

:

I don't know what's happening.

834

:

And then they ended up turning it into

like quadrupling the size of the contract.

835

:

It's like, oh, it was not that I did bad.

836

:

It was just that they need a lot more

help than what they have right now.

837

:

They are in a bad situation

and that's why this feels bad.

838

:

So often that's the case.

839

:

There are also instances where a project

is just really off rails because of

840

:

other things in the business that are

not part of us, and we don't really

841

:

have influence over, and our stakeholder

doesn't really have any influence over.

842

:

Those are the best bonding moments for

a consultant and a client, you know,

843

:

you guys are on the same team against

the big bad rest of the business.

844

:

And we've been in those situations

too, like for those we try to be as

845

:

flexible as we can with the client to

make sure that they are getting what

846

:

they need and what they paid for, but We

also like defend the boundaries of our

847

:

consultants as much as we possibly can.

848

:

We're not trying to put

anyone in an unfair situation.

849

:

Justin Norris: Sometimes I've found

it's just as simple as a process.

850

:

Like, all right, how about for every

task that you want, like you fill out

851

:

this form or create this ticket in the

system instead of just like emailing us

852

:

willy nilly all the time and creating

a lot of noise and a lot of chaos.

853

:

And sometimes people are

really grateful for that.

854

:

Like they were actually craving.

855

:

Kind of like a toddler, like sometimes

they crave that order and structure, even

856

:

though they're like, ah, they're crazy,

but actually clients are like toddlers

857

:

and half joking, not joking, but no,

but you, you put that in play to feel

858

:

like, ah, actually this does feel better.

859

:

Sydney Mulligan: Yeah, I provided similar

direction to our consultants before.

860

:

I actually also had an experience with

client myself like this many years ago

861

:

when I was at a two most that they just

really expected real time response.

862

:

They wanted to be able to slack

me and me respond right away.

863

:

And if it was.

864

:

An hour or two hours before I got

back to them, then they were unhappy.

865

:

So I set like a daily 30

minute office hours for them.

866

:

And I was like, you hold your

questions to this time and I

867

:

will always be available for you.

868

:

You know what?

869

:

Most of the time they figured

out the questions on their own

870

:

before the office hours came.

871

:

And they did not need to slack

me throughout the day to answer

872

:

every little question that

873

:

Justin Norris: they had.

874

:

Little small things that just mitigate

those behaviors that make life hard.

875

:

And, uh, and make things easier.

876

:

I want to turn to one last topic before

we depart, I guess we can tie it in to

877

:

the theme of this episode around kind

of like word of mouth and marketing,

878

:

but it's your very interesting booth

experience at Mopsapalooza because

879

:

you and Lauren did something that I've

never seen anybody do before, which

880

:

is give people real permanent ink

tattoos at your booth at Mopsapalooza.

881

:

And it was not only was it the talk

of the town and the talk of LinkedIn,

882

:

but I Literally multiple times, I was

like, am I being made a fool of that?

883

:

I'm actually believing this.

884

:

I was waiting for the reveal where it's

like, no, no, they're just stickers.

885

:

They're just stickers, but no, they were

real honest to goodness ink tattoos.

886

:

How and why did this

887

:

Sydney Mulligan: come about?

888

:

Well, the why Justin was exactly

what you were demonstrating right

889

:

now is that it has broken your

brain and you will never forget it.

890

:

The how is the way Lauren and I's

partnership works is Lauren has about.

891

:

80 ideas a month, and 95

percent of them are crazy.

892

:

And my job is to filter through and

identify the diamonds in the rough

893

:

that are something we should run with.

894

:

We had Emily Poulton on our podcast

last year, and she told us a

895

:

story about going to a conference.

896

:

I think it was when she was at Revenue

Pulse, and it wasn't Marketo Summit, it

897

:

was some other conference, and her and a

bunch of her coworkers went to a tattoo

898

:

parlor in the evening and all got tattoos.

899

:

And we were like, oh, that's so

crazy, I can't believe you did

900

:

that, I can't believe you got

tattoos with your coworkers.

901

:

And Lauren later texted me and

was like, What if we threw a

902

:

tattoo party at Moff's Closet?

903

:

We had already talked to Mike that we

were going to sponsor, but we hadn't

904

:

really figured out what we wanted to do.

905

:

To be perfectly honest, we told him we

absolutely did not want a booth, because

906

:

we did not want to have to staff a booth.

907

:

That bamboozled us.

908

:

But we were like, Let's figure

out something that would be really

909

:

fun and interesting that, like,

we would have a good time doing.

910

:

She said, What if we threw a tattoo party?

911

:

And then she said, What if we

gave people tattoos in our booth?

912

:

And I said, No, this is a thing

people do because there are tattoo

913

:

conventions, where that's the whole

convention is the whole expo hall is just

914

:

different tattoo artists with a booth

that are doing tattoos in the booth.

915

:

So I know this is possible and

Julie James, Jules James is one

916

:

of our consultants and her and her

husband own a tattoo parlor in Texas.

917

:

And I said, I'm just going to ask

Jules, she's probably going to say no.

918

:

Jay is her husband, is the tattoo artist,

he's incredibly talented, he does a lot of

919

:

like very detailed custom, like fine line

work, like a flash tattoo event is very

920

:

much beneath him, so I'm sure they will be

like, interesting idea, but no thank you.

921

:

But I slacked Jules and she was like,

hell yeah, that sounds incredible.

922

:

So she immediately started looking into

all of the licensing stuff that we would

923

:

need for California, which was extensive.

924

:

I said, don't spend any more

time on this because I'm sure

925

:

Mike Rizzo is going to say no.

926

:

So I slacked Mike and I said,

hey Mike, can we do a flash

927

:

tattoo booth at Mopsapalooza?

928

:

And he said, sure.

929

:

And I said, thanks.

930

:

So we went full steam ahead

organizing the paperwork.

931

:

As I mentioned, it was a lot.

932

:

There was insurance, there were event

permits, Jay is a licensed tattoo artist,

933

:

but he's licensed in Texas, and the rules

are different state by state and county

934

:

by county, so he had to get a travel

license, and he had to get like a blood

935

:

pathogen certification for Orange County.

936

:

It was just no end to

the pee pee work on this.

937

:

And then a couple weeks later, I slacked

Mike and I said, Hey, Mike, the health

938

:

department needs to know that our booth

will have access to a sink with running

939

:

hot water without going through any doors.

940

:

Is there anywhere in the expo

hall or anywhere in a nearby

941

:

space where that would be true?

942

:

And he said, What are you talking about?

943

:

And I said, The tattoo booth, Mike.

944

:

The tattoos from our supply set.

945

:

And he said, Real tattoos?

946

:

And I said, Yeah, man, that's

what a flash tattoo booth is.

947

:

And he was like I thought

you meant stickers.

948

:

And I said, Oh, stickers are boring,

we're doing real tattoos with needles

949

:

and blood in the health department.

950

:

And he was like, this poor man, he was

like, I cannot put any money into this.

951

:

And I was like, I'm not asking you to.

952

:

He was like, okay, Can I get

a tattoo that I want to get?

953

:

And I was like, absolutely.

954

:

He was like, okay.

955

:

I do not have anywhere

that you can get a sink.

956

:

So, anyway, we had to buy a pop up sink.

957

:

It was a whole thing.

958

:

We had to buy a massage table.

959

:

But we also, in order to get

licensed to do it, we had to have

960

:

an on site inspection of our booth.

961

:

Which meant that we would not

actually know for sure if we would

962

:

be able to do the tattoo booth until

the conference already started.

963

:

Because the conference started Sunday

evening, the health department of

964

:

course closed on Mondays, or on

Sundays, so they were coming first

965

:

thing in the morning, Monday morning.

966

:

And I, two weeks out from the event,

was like, there's no way that we're

967

:

gonna get approved to do this.

968

:

There's just no way.

969

:

We did not really even advertise that we

were doing this for that exact reason.

970

:

It would be like, kind of embarrassing

if we were like, Come to our booth

971

:

everyone and get a tattoo and

then we're like, oh, just kidding.

972

:

We failed the health inspections So

we didn't really talk about it and I

973

:

started making friendship bracelets.

974

:

I was like, we got to have something

We're gonna have a booth now.

975

:

We got to have a booth giveaway So I'm

stringing together friendship bracelets

976

:

with mops words on them So we have

something in the booth with a tattoo

977

:

idea feels and then I was standing

in the booth Monday morning 9 a.

978

:

m With Jade our tattoo artist Jules

And the health inspector, and he

979

:

is just signing out paperwork,

and I was like, you are joking.

980

:

We are gonna tattoo real human

beings at this conference right now.

981

:

And in the end, we tattooed about

10 percent of the attendees of

982

:

the event, including Mike and

Mike's sister and Mike's dad.

983

:

It was very exciting.

984

:

Most people were very shocked, and

the reaction that you were having of

985

:

certainly this is not a real tattoo,

many people had, including and up

986

:

until the tattoo artist put a needle

on their skin, we had several people

987

:

who were sitting on the massage table

talking to Jay, and would ask him,

988

:

so how long is this going to last?

989

:

And he would go forever and they

were like, Oh, it's a real tattoo.

990

:

He said, yes, do you still want to do it?

991

:

And they would be like,

yeah, and they did.

992

:

So that was our tattoo booth story.

993

:

Was there any cutesy tie back to Emmy?

994

:

No, it was just a kind of reckless

and really fun thing that we

995

:

did that was very memorable.

996

:

Justin Norris: I mean, I think

the tie back to Emmy is not that

997

:

your brand is reckless, but the

fun, the unique, unconventional.

998

:

And I think it goes to show what you

folks are doing, as an outside observer

999

:

at least, is uh, what would we enjoy,

what would be fun, and I think that's

:

00:49:03,645 --> 00:49:05,765

just so important in marketing in general.

:

00:49:05,775 --> 00:49:07,215

Like, what would I

actually find interesting?

:

00:49:07,525 --> 00:49:10,585

Getting out of your own head, these are

the best practices, and these are the

:

00:49:10,585 --> 00:49:13,605

10 tips for running a good trade show,

and just doing something that's actually

:

00:49:13,605 --> 00:49:17,410

cool and unique, and You could have an

events team of 30 people that wouldn't

:

00:49:17,410 --> 00:49:18,730

think of something that interesting.

:

00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,840

Sydney Mulligan: Oh, well, we had many

events teams that approached us and

:

00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,370

were like, so is this what you do?

:

00:49:23,370 --> 00:49:24,530

Do you do tattoo booths?

:

00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,420

Can we hire you to do a tattoo booth?

:

00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,370

Absolutely not.

:

00:49:28,985 --> 00:49:32,055

No way you have any idea

how much work this was.

:

00:49:32,575 --> 00:49:36,965

And it is completely different

for every county and every venue.

:

00:49:37,065 --> 00:49:37,805

So no.

:

00:49:38,245 --> 00:49:41,155

Justin Norris: There's a good startup

out there for somebody who who's like,

:

00:49:41,155 --> 00:49:44,585

I'm going to start up a trade show tattoo

service that like navigates all that.

:

00:49:45,145 --> 00:49:45,675

So there you go.

:

00:49:45,675 --> 00:49:46,555

You just gave a gift

:

00:49:46,655 --> 00:49:46,935

Sydney Mulligan: to someone.

:

00:49:47,055 --> 00:49:49,645

Well, thank you for your kind words

and you're correct that like our, our

:

00:49:49,645 --> 00:49:52,425

shtick is if we're not having a good

time, then this is not worth doing.

:

00:49:52,445 --> 00:49:56,585

And I just want to add one more thing,

which is that in that same spirit,

:

00:49:56,595 --> 00:50:00,995

this year we are planning to host

pop up parties all across the U.

:

00:50:00,995 --> 00:50:01,245

S.

:

00:50:01,285 --> 00:50:03,765

Our first one is in New

York on February 29th.

:

00:50:04,390 --> 00:50:09,190

We are trying to make it like a networking

event that is not a networking event

:

00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:11,070

because networking events generally suck.

:

00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:15,140

It's like the fun part of going to a

conference or an event where you just

:

00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:19,570

get to like go and have an open bar

and hang out with your work friends.

:

00:50:19,950 --> 00:50:20,690

That's what this is.

:

00:50:20,690 --> 00:50:22,580

So we're calling it a not working party.

:

00:50:22,730 --> 00:50:24,000

It's called Business Casual.

:

00:50:24,690 --> 00:50:28,200

29th, sponsored by Stencil and Inflection.

:

00:50:28,260 --> 00:50:31,920

Uh, if anyone out there, if this airs

before then, then I hope to see you there.

:

00:50:32,380 --> 00:50:36,090

Uh, but if not, then let us know

what city we should go to next.

:

00:50:36,540 --> 00:50:36,900

Well,

:

00:50:37,170 --> 00:50:38,640

Justin Norris: huge fan of

what you both are doing.

:

00:50:38,860 --> 00:50:42,670

Always a great fun to chat and

we'll continue to watch your

:

00:50:42,670 --> 00:50:44,810

growth and success, uh, happily.

:

00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:46,300

Thanks so much for being on the show.

:

00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:47,490

Thanks, Justin.

:

00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:49,150

Hey everyone.

:

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I want to invite you over to the RevOps

FM substack community, where you can

:

00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,430

sign up to get rough transcripts, show

notes, longer form articles, and other

:

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bonus content, just head over to RevOps.

:

00:51:00,170 --> 00:51:02,610

fm slash subscribe to get free.

:

00:51:03,830 --> 00:51:06,600

I'd also love to know what you thought

of the episode and to hear suggestions

:

00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:07,960

for topics you want to learn about.

:

00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,420

Feel free to leave a comment

on Substack or send me an email

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at justin at revops dot fm.

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Thanks for listening.

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About the Podcast

RevOps FM
Thinking out loud about RevOps and go-to-market strategy.
This podcast is your weekly masterclass on becoming a better revenue operator. We challenge conventional wisdom and dig into what actually works for building predictable revenue at scale.

For show notes and extra resources, visit https://revops.fm/show

Key topics include: marketing technology, sales technology, marketing operations, sales operations, process optimization, team structure, planning, reporting, forecasting, workflow automation, and GTM strategy.

About your host

Profile picture for Justin Norris

Justin Norris

Justin has over 15 years as a marketing, operations, and GTM professional.

He's worked almost exclusively at startups, including a successful exit. As an operations consultant, he's been a trusted partner to numerous SaaS "unicorns" and Fortune 500s.