Episode 22

full
Published on:

3rd Mar 2024

AI, Growth Mindset, and the Evolution of SDRs - Kyle Coleman

Kyle Coleman is one of the most prominent revenue leaders on LinkedIn and a long-time champion of sales development.

So there was no one better to chat with about the future of the SDR function, which some claim is facing imminent demise...

Spoiler alert: Kyle doesn't share that view. But he DOES think that it needs to change.

We look at how sales development will evolve in 2024 and beyond, discuss his SDR to 2-time-CMO journey, and examine how AI will impact sellers and increase productivity.

Perhaps most importantly, we also go deep into the mindsets, routines, and strategies Kyle has used to enable his professional growth and productivity.

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About Today's Guest

Kyle Coleman is a sales and Marketing leader with a passion for people development, identifying and solving problems, creating and optimizing processes, and unifying departments across the revenue org. He's currently the CMO at Copy.ai and was previously CMO at Clari.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyletcoleman/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:39] - Role of SDRs in B2B GTM
  • [04:47] - Strategic partnership between SDRs and AEs
  • [07:43] - How does a junior SDR offer value to an executive?
  • [11:20] - Qualities and skills of a good SDR
  • [14:05] - Providing space for SDR autonomy
  • [16:28] - Replacing SDRs with AI?
  • [19:25] - Kyle’s mindset for professional success
  • [24:21] - Importance of documentation
  • [26:08] - Figuring out what to say “no” to
  • [28:52] - Keeping calm in the face of big targets
  • [31:43] - Daily routines and prioritization
  • [35:32] - Benefits of being a LinkedIn creator
  • [39:38] - Core job of a marketing leader
  • [41:35] - Why Kyle joined Copy.ai
  • [43:19] - Core capabilities of the platform
  • [49:29] - Kyle’s predictions on the future of AI in GTM

Thanks to Our Sponsor

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Transcript
Justin:

Welcome

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:

to RevOps FM everyone.

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:

Big day today on the show is we're

joined by one of my favorite go to

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market thought leaders, Kyle Coleman.

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Kyle spent six years leading sales

development at Looker before moving to

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Clary, where he grew from leading sales

dev to being chief marketing officer.

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Most recently Kyle started another

new chapter as CMO at copy.

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ai, which is a really innovative

AI platform for go to market teams.

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I've been experimenting with it

definitely something you should check out.

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Kyle is one of LinkedIn's top voices

and he's got the blue badge to prove it.

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But I wanted to share a quick

personal anecdote before we

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jump in that you may not know.

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Don't get scared, Kyle.

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It's nothing bad.

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But this was back in 2022.

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I was actually working with a BDR to

start up an outbound motion at my company.

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And we noticed some intense signals

from Clary pop up in our system.

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And since revenue enablement is one

of the personas that we target, I

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thought this was a great opportunity.

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To prospect Kyle.

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So we worked together crafting the email.

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We took the shot and Kyle,

you responded pretty quickly.

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As I remember, I don't think you were

on the market for anything, but you

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were friendly, you were supportive.

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You said you dig around internally

and you were very encouraging.

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So it says a lot to me.

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You know, you've built a big part of your

brand around supporting SDRs on LinkedIn.

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And if someone is an equally nice guy

when no one's looking, that means a lot.

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So it's one of several reasons.

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I'm very excited to welcome

you to the show today.

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Thanks for being here, Kyle.

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Kyle: Very kind, Justin.

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Very kind.

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I'm excited to be here.

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Let's dig in.

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Justin: All right.

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Well mentioned SDRs.

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Let's start there because that

is, , been a huge part of your career.

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Something you've talked.

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A lot about where are we today with SDRs?

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What's your point of view?

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What role do they serve in a B2B

GTM and why are they important?

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Kyle: SDRs are dead.

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I'm just kidding.

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I'm just kidding.

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Justin: 12 million people's heart

just dropped into their chest.

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Kyle: I know I'm sorry

I can't help myself.

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In all seriousness, , what the SDR role

has become, Justin, is unfortunately, in

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many cases, not every case, but speaking

in generalities here, a relatively tight

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bound Specialized role that's responsible

for getting a foot in the door and passing

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off a meeting to an accounting executive

and then going and doing that again.

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And while that is very useful, it is.

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In my opinion, too narrow and in all the

times I've worked with and manage SCR

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teams internally, and certainly the STRs

that I've coached, I've tried my best

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to make the role more horizontal, make

it broader, make it more than just about

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executing, frankly, pretty robotic tasks

of sending emails or making cold calls.

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And while that is hard, I'm

not saying it's not hard.

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I'm just saying it's too narrow.

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And so what I've seen happen is.

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The chasm between an SDR and an AE

has grown wider and wider as the

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SDR role has gotten more and more

boxed in and more specialized.

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And so that growth path from SDR to

AE started to become really difficult.

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It is today really difficult

for a lot of people.

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The SDR is not generating as much

business acumen as they need to.

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They don't understand the product and the

personas as well as they probably need to.

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They don't know the sales process

nearly as well as they need to.

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And so sales hiring managers say,

why should I take the time to train

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up this person when I can go hire a

quote unquote, experienced salesperson

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to fill the role on my team.

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And that is a major problem.

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And so what I believe will

happen that with the evolution

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of the role of the SCR role.

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As guided by AI is a broadening of

horizons, a widening of the aperture

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of the SCR role so that they have to

spend less time on the mundane menial

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tasks like account plan creation and CRM

updates and all those types of things.

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And they can focus more on the truly

strategic things their company, their

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personas, their developing the business

acumen, doing the things they need to do.

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To really set themselves up for whatever

the next stage of their career is.

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So I expect the SDR role to be

rethought and reconfigured to be a

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truer inside sales role in down markets.

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You know, if you're selling the SMB,

I think that people have bandwidth

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entry level, quote unquote, salespeople

will have bandwidth to be full cycle.

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And then if you're supporting an upmarket

segment, I expect the SDR to be a

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much more strategic co pilot with that

tenured AE providing real value beyond.

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Just getting a foot in the door.

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So that's the evolution that I see.

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And a lot of that is going to be

AI assisted, but I'll pause there.

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Justin: No, I mean, that's fascinating.

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And so let's just double click

on, on one of those ideas around.

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Widening the aperture on an

SDR and certainly having AI

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assist them with those tasks.

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I think that's a total no brainer.

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And we can talk about that.

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But just in terms of how that SDR is

positioned relative to the AE, because

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you're quite right in the middle.

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A lot of the scenarios I've

worked in and with a lot of the

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BDRs I've worked with day to day

they're in that very narrow role.

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They're like, you qualify, you

don't pitch, don't do this.

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Like it's all a lot of don'ts and a

lot of dos and then it's handed over.

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What does that more strategic

partnership look like in your

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experience or in your vision?

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Kyle: So a lot of times the guidance

you'll hear SDRs receive, and I'm guilty

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of having given this guidance to SDRs and

even thinking this way when I was an SDR

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is to quote unquote, sell the meeting.

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So sell the time.

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And that's a very different way of

thinking about things than selling

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the product or selling the solution or

selling the value or something like that.

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And that mindset shift is a really.

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Really important one for SDRs to have,

because it necessarily means you need to

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actually understand your product more.

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You need to understand your

personas at a much deeper level.

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Those value props that you're

giving can't just be one liner

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value props that you send an email.

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You need to actually be able to unpack

that and have a real conversation

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with somebody as if, you know, you're

standing at a trade show booth or

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you're having a drink or whatever.

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Like you need to be able to have the

five, 10, 15 minute conversation.

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With your prospects, and if that's the

standard that you hold yourself to not to

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be able to answer every question, nobody

at your company can answer every question.

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I promise you like that's impossible,

but you need to be able to answer

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the high level questions about

why somebody should care and

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specifically why should an executive.

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Care about your product, because

especially in:

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is probably long gone, you know, with

PLG being the exception, but for the

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most part, SDRs can and should get used

to instead of selling, you know, to a

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manager, individual contributor type

persona, you've got to be able to sell

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to the VP, to the C level personas.

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And that again requires a different way of

thinking, a different way of training, a

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different set of enablement, a different

standard that you're holding SDRs to.

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And so to be able to do that, it means

that SDRs can't sit down in a boiler

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room and make 200 dials a day and just

listen to the phone ring for six hours.

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They can't do that.

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It's a misuse of time.

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So you need to find a better way

for them to leverage their time.

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How can they learn more about

personas to have a more strategic

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type approach in their outreach?

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How can you challenge your SDR team to

not just be executing that super high

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quantity of tasks, but rather have a

more strategic approach to the quality.

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Of the outreach is what matters more.

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And as a market, if we can make

that transition, I think everybody's

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going to be better off for it

because it means way less, you know,

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inbox inundation for everybody.

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Way less just spray and pray thoughtless

tactics and way more strategy, creativity,

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a much more human approach to sales.

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I know that sounds sort of

counterintuitive because I'm

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saying AI can help unlock a lot

of this and create more humanity,

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but I really do believe it's true.

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Justin: Following that path even further,

if we think about the roles that NSDR

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plays today, On the inbound side,

you know, they're often gatekeepers.

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It's like, I want to learn about

this product, I have a need.

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And an SDR is like, hold on a

second, I need to make sure that

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you're really worth my 80s times.

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There's something a little bit almost

demeaning about that, but it's, I

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get why we do it, because for that

very reason, we have to economize.

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On the outbound side, you

know, they're hunters.

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They're chasing you down, they're doing

things, they're putting memes in your

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inbox to try to get your attention.

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And the vision that you've described

is one in which, you know, they

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are able to be more strategic and

they are able to offer more value.

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Practically speaking, how do we do that?

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How do we take a, you know, 24 year old,

that's like one of their first jobs out

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of school and get them to a place where

they can offer legitimate value to an

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executive to be worthy of like having

that conversation to get to the next step.

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Kyle: This is the million

dollar question, Justin.

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And it's something that when I've

been running SDR teams, it's taken

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months and months of training and

enablement and onboarding and all the

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rest to try and build this skillset.

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It's a difficult skillset to build.

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And I think AI can shrink that

time a little bit, but not entirely

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like, you know, somebody who is

either, and in many STR roles,

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you're either new to the industry.

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You're making a career transition from

teaching, you're going to transition

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into SAS or something like that, or it's

your first job out of college and college

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grads have no idea how to do anything.

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And so whatever the case is, it's

pretty rare to get an SDR type

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persona or profile who has a ton of.

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Meaningful business or SAS

technology business experience.

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So you're kind of teaching

them from the ground up.

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And what I've always focused a lot on is

when you're doing like, it sounds really

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boring, but it's so important, which is

the account plan, back to basics here, but

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the account plan is not just where they

headquartered and how many employees do

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they have and what technology do they use?

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That's important stuff.

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You need to catalog that it's.

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Where are they making

bets for growth in:

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What is the company strategy

for a public company?

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This is very easy to find.

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Like they are legally required to

outline these strategies in their 10 K

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and their earnings or annual reports,

their earning statements, all those

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things for private companies, it's not

impossible to come by this information.

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The CEOs of these

companies give interviews.

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They issue press releases, they have

funding announcements where they say,

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we just raised 50 million in order to

X, Y, Z, and the SDR needs to be able

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not just to find that information, but

then to connect the dots between this

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strategic initiative that the company

has and their company's value prop.

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And that's where the magic happens.

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And the better you can train them.

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And from an enablement standpoint, if you

can codify these things and say, when

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you're researching a company, look for a

company who is expanding internationally

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or rolling out a new product or undergoing

an M and a, or, bucket these things.

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And then you'll be able to say,

every time you have or run into this

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situation, here's how to position

copy AI's value props in order to.

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Achieve those initiatives.

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And if you can be the one that SDR

that's connecting those dots between the

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strategic initiatives and your company's

value prop, you're developing business

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acumen and you can have real conversations

because hopefully you understand

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what that company is doing, what it

means and what its implications are.

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It's not an overnight exercise, Justin.

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It takes a lot of time.

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When you have one person

doing this, that's great.

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As an SDR, when you have a team

of SDRs that are doing this,

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it's what they talk about.

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And so you're able to then create this

sort of virtuous cycle where the team is

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learning from each other and messaging and

positioning gets sharpened by the lessons

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that they learn in real conversations.

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And the cycle feeds itself a hundred

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Justin: It's almost like a

management consultant light.

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In a way, taking that big picture point of

view, understanding the company dynamics

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where they are, what they want to do.

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And, I've been part of hiring STR.

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Certainly you've hired

a lot more STRs than me.

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Are there specific qualities or, skills

or what are the things that you look

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for where you see that in the, maybe

they've never done anything before,

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so you can't rely on experience.

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But you look at that person.

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You're like, they've got

that thing that I can.

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build to be that person

that you just described.

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Kyle: percent.

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There are three main things that I always

look for, and we can talk about how to

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screen for these things if you'd like.

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Number one on the list by a mile.

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Is curiosity , if you're in

a sales role and you're not

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curious, it ain't going to work.

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It's just not going to work.

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You have to be able to be willing and able

to ask questions and self serve answers.

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Every single one without fail,

successful salesperson SDR I've

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seen has had this super high degree.

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Of curiosity self started

that's non negotiable.

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So curiosity is number one on the list.

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Number two is passion.

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And I don't mean necessarily

like, oh, I'm really passionate

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about the product I sell.

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Hopefully I can get you there.

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But in an interview setting, I'm

looking for people that have some

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sort of fire in their belly, something

in life that's exciting to them.

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I see the guitars behind you, Justin.

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I assume that you're a guitar player.

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If we're in an interview

setting, I would ask you.

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About, Hey, what's going on?

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Tell me the story.

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How long you've been playing guitar.

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Is it something that, when you're

doing it, you lose track of time.

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Like, I want to hear about the thing in

your life that you're really passionate

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about, and I want you to sell me on it.

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And if you do a good job,

then I say, okay, great.

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Now, all I need to do is get

you excited about my product

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and that passion, that energy.

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Can shine through, like that's

a lot of what salesmanship is.

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So curiosity and passion.

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And then the third one, I used to ask

people to tell me about, you know,

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something in their life that they

had a high degree of success with.

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They worked really hard on something

and they were really successful.

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And that was always a pretty interesting

conversation and useful for me.

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I've changed the framing on

this to be more around, tell me

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about a process you've created.

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That yielded success because

that's what sales is.

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I don't want somebody who can

just make something happen once.

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And it was miraculous and they

have no idea how they did it.

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I want somebody who's thoughtful

about the steps that you take

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to achieve some sort of outcome.

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Because to me, that means you're taking

pride in the steps that are required.

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You're taking pride in the process

itself and not just getting tied.

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And so if you have that process

orientation, and if you have experience

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having in school and work and your

personal life, whatever, I don't

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care where it comes from, but people

who have that kind of process or

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systems thinking are typically people

that do very well in sales roles.

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Justin: It's almost a little

bit of a dash of ops in there.

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I was thinking as you were talking as

well, there's a certain resourcefulness.

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thinking back as well to people

who've been on the BDR team.

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who have done a really good job,

unfortunately gotten promoted to AE far

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too quickly in some cases because you

lose that skill, but I remember this one

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instance where somebody was showing us

what they did, because they'd had some

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success and they were like, alright,

show the team what you did and they

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took a person, they put him in a cadence

and they're like, yeah, and I thought

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this subject line was not that good

so I changed it to XYZ and I'm like,

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oh, they actually, they were fixing

our mistakes, they were thinking that

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way, not everybody has that, do they?

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Kyle: Not everybody has it.

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And not every manager or team

environment allows for that.

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Justin, a lot of teams or managers say,

Hey, this is our prescribed process.

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Go click the buttons,

go execute the process.

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And to me, that's crazy.

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purpose of having an SDR, the

purpose of having a human in

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the role is for their brain.

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It's not for their ability

to hit, send email.

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Anybody can do that.

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Robots could do that.

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I want people that are thinking,

I want process to evolve.

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Bottoms up like the way that I used

to do my SDR stuff in:

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similarities today, but it's very

different if I went in and tried to force

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my 2015 playbook down the throats of

modern SDRs, they would not be successful.

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They just wouldn't.

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And so what I encourage managers to do is

provide a process framework to your teams.

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People that are new in the role, people

that are new to the industry, whatever,

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they need some guardrails or else

they're going to be totally lost and

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they're going to fly off the highway.

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So provide some process frameworks,

but within that framework, expect and

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encourage that evolution, expect and

encourage people to try new stuff, to

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experiment, create that room for failure.

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That's totally fine.

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We learn.

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When things don't go well, we learn way

more from failure than we do from success.

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And so if your team is emboldened and

empowered to try stuff, knows that

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they're going to be celebrated and not

punished for experimentation, you're

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going to have an always evolving process.

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That's only going to get better over time.

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And that also creates a really nice

team environment where STRA is very

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willing to help STRB and vice versa.

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And their best practices get

translated and codified into

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whatever new process there is.

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And so that's the way

I've always operated.

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And it kills me to see so many SDR

teams just getting the whip cracked

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because they're quote unquote, not

doing it the prescribed way and that

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it just doesn't make sense to me

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Justin: So maybe one more bonus question

on SDRs, because the way what you're

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describing to me, it raises the specter of

like at a certain point, if SDRs are just

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literally following steps, pushing buttons

and doing A, B and C in a prescribed

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order, it sounds a lot like what AI does.

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And so at a certain point,

you're like, well, we really

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could just replace this with AI.

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:

And I've seen A lot of people out

there talking about like the future of

332

:

outbound almost as like a growth ops

person just managing these AI inboxes

333

:

and sort of pulling the puppet strings.

334

:

But really it's all being done by

machines to an extent of all you

335

:

have is mediocre BDRs pushing buttons.

336

:

You'd say we will get a lot

more predictability from those

337

:

machines than we would from trying

to get people to follow that.

338

:

So you really would need

those more strategic level

339

:

more mature if you like BDRs.

340

:

To avoid that, and I guess I'm curious

for your point of view, do you ever

341

:

see some of this function, like, yeah,

we could just fully automate that with

342

:

AI, or you're very much like human in

the loop, like, we've got to keep doing

343

:

that, because that's what drives value.

344

:

Kyle: as long as buyers are people.

345

:

Sellers have to be people.

346

:

So if there's a universe at some

point in the future where the

347

:

procurement folks are literally robots

and not just figuratively robots.

348

:

Like that's the universe I see, Justin,

there's always going to be a human in

349

:

the loop when we're selling to people.

350

:

That's just the way that I mean, my, and

I know this may be a bit myopic and maybe

351

:

not the best analogy to draw, but gosh,

when I'm trying to get customer support.

352

:

From a bank or a restaurant or whatever.

353

:

And I'm just in this nonstop loop with

the chat bot or I'm on the robot call

354

:

and I'm trying to, yes, you talk to

human and it's so frustrating and we

355

:

can't allow that kind of friction to

make its way into the buying process.

356

:

And so again, as long as there's

a human on the other side.

357

:

That think that the human in

the loop is extremely important.

358

:

Now, the difference or the

distinction between now and this

359

:

future that we're talking about is

what the humans spend their time on.

360

:

And I want my human spending as much

time speaking with other humans in

361

:

a meaningful, impactful way, then

executing robotic tasks that the

362

:

robot can and should do, frankly.

363

:

And so if we can optimize for

that future, I think that teams

364

:

will get smaller, frankly.

365

:

I don't think we're going to need

a team of a hundred SDRs to go and

366

:

support a hundred million dollar

business, but I don't know what the

367

:

number is 50, 60, I don't know, but

teams will get smaller, but they're

368

:

going to get a lot more productive.

369

:

And that to me is really the key here.

370

:

It's both efficiency and effectiveness

and really focusing on that

371

:

efficacy effectiveness side of

the coin is extremely important.

372

:

Not to say that, there's

going to be a job elimination.

373

:

I think that the job broadens.

374

:

In its scope and increases in

productivity, which unlocks a

375

:

ton of economic potential for

new companies and new everything.

376

:

So I think it's, the pie is

going to continue to grow and

377

:

some people understandably are

threatened by this potentiality.

378

:

I think it's really exciting though.

379

:

And I think it's going

to up level everybody.

380

:

Justin: And we'll talk a bit

more about how the role that

381

:

technology can play there.

382

:

I want to first talk a bit more about you.

383

:

And, one of the things I like to do

when I look at people that have had

384

:

kind of an exceptional, trajectory, and

you've done a really good job, by the

385

:

way, on your LinkedIn profile, of like,

each year, like, I started doing this,

386

:

at the end of the year, I was managing

this many people, like, I could really

387

:

trace the steps of your career, and

it's been like a, a highlight reel,

388

:

like, each year was bigger and better

it went from success to success.

389

:

Obviously, people don't usually highlight

things that go wrong on their profiles,

390

:

so maybe there's more to the story that

you didn't really tell, but I guess what

391

:

I'm getting to with that long winded

question is, what's the recipe, I suppose,

392

:

that you've attributed that success to?

393

:

Usually people have certain

mindset routines, structures

394

:

that they set for themselves.

395

:

What's your recipe for

success, if you have one?

396

:

Kyle: it's a really good question,

and it's really easy to connect

397

:

the dots looking backwards.

398

:

You know, to borrow the

line from Steve Jobs.

399

:

And so if you would have asked

me 10 years ago if I was going to

400

:

be a CMO today, I probably would

have laughed and been like no,

401

:

how the hell would that happen?

402

:

But the path and what I have

done is a couple things.

403

:

One, there's a really good book.

404

:

Well, there's a series of

books that I've read recently.

405

:

One is called The Confident Mind.

406

:

Another is called Learned Excellence.

407

:

Learned Excellence is very new.

408

:

I just finished it.

409

:

And it's all about this mindset that I

realize I feel like I have, which is.

410

:

I say yes to basically every opportunity

that comes my way in a work context.

411

:

So, Hey, there's a fire burning

in this side of the business.

412

:

We need somebody to go figure

out how to put out this fire.

413

:

And I run toward that fire.

414

:

And I'm like, I have no idea if I can

actually do this, but I know I can try.

415

:

And worst thing that happens is I try

and fail, but I learned a ton along

416

:

the way, and it being predisposed to

running toward that fire saying yes.

417

:

To those opportunities, having

confidence that maybe I don't know

418

:

exactly what I'm doing, but I have

confidence enough to figure it out.

419

:

That's the mindset for me.

420

:

That's worked really well.

421

:

So as an example, when I was at Looker,

I was responsible for the SDR team.

422

:

The team grew to about 70

people by the time I left.

423

:

And I worked directly for four years,

hand in hand with a VP of demand Jen

424

:

and reported directly to the CMO.

425

:

So I learned a lot from those two

women, Jen and Lisa, what does good

426

:

look like from a demand generation and

marketing standpoint, like just learned

427

:

from them by osmosis, fast forward to

my time at Clary in:

428

:

demand generation left the company.

429

:

And I just raised my hand.

430

:

It was like, Hey, I can keep

the train on the tracks here.

431

:

I know what good looks like.

432

:

I worked very closely with the same folks

in my days at Looker and to their credit

433

:

and to my benefit, the leadership at Clary

said, okay, yeah, try your hand at it.

434

:

We're going to go interview to

try and backfill this person, but

435

:

like keep the train on the tracks.

436

:

And so I just dove in and

just figured out like.

437

:

What are we doing?

438

:

What's working?

439

:

What do we need to do differently?

440

:

How can we get the demand generation

and growth marketing engine working

441

:

more closely with sales and SDR and

just tried to do what I thought was best

442

:

based on what I had seen happen in the

past and temporary became permanent.

443

:

I ended up owning that growth marketing

demand gen marketing ops function.

444

:

And that was kind of my story at Clary.

445

:

The same thing happened with

customer marketing and product

446

:

marketing, content marketing, value

engineering, all of these things.

447

:

And I was just the one that was always

like, I'll try, like, we'll see what

448

:

happens and with the right people.

449

:

And I'm not taking full credit for

this by any means, because there were

450

:

excellent people at every step of

the way that I basically figured out

451

:

how to get the most leverage out of.

452

:

How to put on the right responsibilities,

the right sorts of things that there

453

:

were projects that they were focused on

and just found ways to optimize things.

454

:

So be open minded.

455

:

Your job is not your job.

456

:

Have confidence that you can

try something and fail and not

457

:

be a failure and learn from it.

458

:

And that's, what's animated my

thinking for a very long time.

459

:

Justin: There's a scenario in which

somebody follows that advice and is

460

:

like, yes, I'll do this, I'll do this.

461

:

And they, they get

overwhelmed and they fail.

462

:

You've done it and you've managed to

succeed and I think The last part of

463

:

your answer there, maybe it touched

on something that's very important,

464

:

which is around, I want to say maybe

delegation, prioritization, but it's

465

:

not just that you did it, but you

did it and you were able to succeed

466

:

at it, which can be really hard.

467

:

What were the things, once you

had taken on that challenge, that

468

:

enabled you, you think, to meet each

of those challenges successfully?

469

:

Or, you know, even failed, but failed

in a way that allowed you to fail

470

:

forward, rather than like, Sorry

Kyle, this isn't working out, or

471

:

Kyle: 100%.

472

:

It was not super smooth the entire time,

Justin, like I had my fair share of face

473

:

palm moments, was fine, because I was

expecting them, I was anticipating them.

474

:

And even when I was speaking with

the powers that be at Clary at the

475

:

time, I would say like, Hey, so you

know, I'm not an expert in this.

476

:

Now, I'm confident I'm gonna go

figure it out, but it's gonna be a

477

:

little crunchy for a little while.

478

:

So expectation setting with the

people there is really important.

479

:

I never Tried to put on errors that

I was going to go and be able to

480

:

fix something overnight if it was

something I had no experience doing.

481

:

The second thing though, it's

going to sound so boring.

482

:

But necessary.

483

:

Fundamental foundational stuff is I

am hyper focused on documentation.

484

:

Get it out of your head, get it

out of the heads of the other

485

:

people and get it on paper.

486

:

You'd be shocked, or maybe you

wouldn't be about how little people

487

:

are willing to lean into documentation.

488

:

Here's the strategy for demand generation.

489

:

Here's the roles and responsibilities

for who does what here's a process

490

:

outline for how we run a campaign.

491

:

The basic stuff, just get

it down and documented.

492

:

And then what you can do is

you can say, Natasha, you're

493

:

responsible for this, and this.

494

:

I've seen you do this in the past.

495

:

It's all you, this is an outline.

496

:

It should continue to evolve.

497

:

But if you're going and executing these

five things, we're going to be golden,

498

:

Laura, here's what I need from you.

499

:

Great.

500

:

You got it good.

501

:

And you just go delegate

out the right thing.

502

:

So I was not running day

to day demand generation.

503

:

By any means, like if you asked me to

go run a campaign for a LinkedIn ads

504

:

right now, I wouldn't know what to do,

I know what the output should look like.

505

:

I know what good messaging

positioning sounds like.

506

:

And then I defer and delegate to the

actual experts who know what they're doing

507

:

and can go and optimize those campaigns.

508

:

And so as long as you are

willing to put in the.

509

:

Non glamorous time to create the non

glamorous output that is documentation

510

:

and R& R crisply defined R& R.

511

:

The rest sort of takes care of itself.

512

:

empower people to go and do the

jobs that they're experts at and

513

:

that's what I've been doing for

a long time or tried to anyway.

514

:

Justin: You won't find a bigger

documentation nerd than me.

515

:

Maybe there's one or two out there.

516

:

But yeah, I have a hundred and

fifty pages of my knowledge base,

517

:

and I believe in that so strongly.

518

:

So, I don't think it's boring, I think

it's The secret weapon but so having

519

:

a great team, are there things in all

of that, that you were intentional

520

:

about saying no to, because for every

yes that you said, you know, time is

521

:

finite unless you're superhuman and

don't sleep, which may well be the case.

522

:

But how do you figure out what to say

no to as you're saying yes to things?

523

:

Kyle: It's a great question.

524

:

So the framing for what I say yes

to are more of opportunities that

525

:

are Experiences that I think will

be both interesting and challenging

526

:

and therefore fulfilling for me.

527

:

So when I'm saying say yes to

everything, it's more, it's not

528

:

about just take on more work.

529

:

It's more about be intentional with what

experiences you're trying to get and why.

530

:

And when something, you see something

or something is presented to you

531

:

that's in that universe, like go

and do it now, you're totally right.

532

:

A marketing team and operations team

of sales, they can't do everything or

533

:

else you're going to fail miserably

or burn people out, and so the way.

534

:

That I try and operate is

with the key stakeholders who

535

:

for me right now is our CEO.

536

:

And this was certainly

the way that I operated.

537

:

My previous company was CEO was very

interested in marketing, which is a

538

:

great thing is my relationship with Paul.

539

:

Our current CEO is documented.

540

:

Here's what we're doing, and here's why.

541

:

And here's what we're not

doing, and here's why.

542

:

Two different lists.

543

:

Here's what's in, here's what's out.

544

:

Intentionally out.

545

:

If you want anything to be done

on this list, or anything on some

546

:

undefined list somewhere, it means

that something on the do list Needs to

547

:

fall off and that's the way it goes.

548

:

And every week in our one on one, we have

these conversations about priorities.

549

:

Yeah.

550

:

Are these five things still the priority?

551

:

Yes.

552

:

Good.

553

:

If not, what needs to be removed?

554

:

And you have to have this intentional

framing to show people a, we,

555

:

I have a three person marketing

team right now, including me.

556

:

We can't do everything.

557

:

It's impossible.

558

:

So we need to limit it down to what are

the most important things that we're

559

:

And then the list of the things that.

560

:

Our back burner or we'll save for

another day is growing every single

561

:

day, but it's important to keep

that documented so that you can show

562

:

people we're thinking about this.

563

:

We've intentionally decided not to do it.

564

:

Thanks for your input.

565

:

Keep them coming.

566

:

But here's what we are focused on.

567

:

And here's why.

568

:

Here's where we're going to

provide the biggest lift and

569

:

most leverage to the business.

570

:

Here's how we're going to

generate the most demand.

571

:

Here's how you miss or miss a sales rep.

572

:

Here's how your pipeline

is going to be full.

573

:

It's because of these things, not

because of these other things.

574

:

So very intentional about the

conversation, very direct about

575

:

the conversation and trying

to be as comprehensive as

576

:

possible with the documentation.

577

:

Justin: I love that because if you're

not really clear on that life can be

578

:

kind of like a series of, you know,

struggling with guilt or struggling with

579

:

stress, like, Oh, I'm not doing this.

580

:

I'm not doing that.

581

:

Like, it's kind of paralyzing almost.

582

:

It's very liberating.

583

:

And speaking of which, you seem very

cheerful and happy for a person that

584

:

has big numbers you know, quotas,

like, and that's been your experience.

585

:

Maybe you're just used to it, but as an

ops person, It seems daunting to this

586

:

big quote or number attached to you.

587

:

How do you think about that is it just

knowing that you're going to hit it?

588

:

Kyle: That's a large part of

it is the self confidence.

589

:

And I know it can sound really arrogant,

but again, this book, the confident

590

:

mind is a really good primer on how to.

591

:

Have this approach that maintains

confidence without hopefully

592

:

sounding or coming across as

unearned confidence or arrogance.

593

:

And so I try and maintain that confidence

because confidence is contagious.

594

:

And if I'm, operating with my team.

595

:

And I show up as I don't know, I don't

know if we're gonna be able to do this.

596

:

Guess what?

597

:

It ain't gonna work.

598

:

Like people are gonna, that

kind of pessimism or that kind

599

:

of attitude is also contagious.

600

:

I realized pretty early in my career,

I didn't realize, I should say,

601

:

until I started managing people,

how much my personal mindset, my

602

:

behavior, my words, my actions, how

much that trickled down and across.

603

:

The rest of the team and I found when I

think I had a team of about four or so

604

:

people in the early days at Looker and I

did not show up super well in a meeting.

605

:

I was upset for some other reason.

606

:

I allowed those emotions to

follow me into a team meeting.

607

:

And then I just kind of

saw the rest of the day.

608

:

Their heads weren't in it.

609

:

They were not productive.

610

:

And I basically decided.

611

:

In that moment that my

mindset, I can control it.

612

:

There's no reason why you can't,

if you're not having a good day,

613

:

change your mind and have a good day.

614

:

Like it's possible.

615

:

It's all, a lot of it is mental.

616

:

Now I know there's stuff in real

life that will always come up and

617

:

you need to be mindful of that.

618

:

But a lot of it really is mental.

619

:

And so as soon as I realized how much , my

own style trickles down and across the

620

:

team, I said, I need to control this more.

621

:

I need to show up with energy, with

positivity, with confidence, with

622

:

optimism, because the rest of the

team is going to feed off that.

623

:

And if that's what they see me

doing, hopefully they'll mirror

624

:

that in many ways and hopefully

we'll get the most out of the team.

625

:

I also realized, Justin, that people

like working with happy people, people

626

:

don't like working with folks that are

super down or negative or pessimistic.

627

:

want to be somebody that people come to.

628

:

That people trust that people

want to pull into their projects.

629

:

That's who I want to be.

630

:

And so manifesting that

positivity has been maybe a bit

631

:

of a superpower for me, that's.

632

:

Yeah,

633

:

Justin: superpower was the word that

was on the tip of my lips because, you

634

:

know, I worked in consulting for a while

before my current job, so you see inside

635

:

a lot of different companies and you

see, unfortunately executives that may

636

:

be somewhat effective in their way in

navigating their companies, but they

637

:

lead maybe a little bit with fear, with

anger, with forcefulness, with, you

638

:

know, it'll take you a certain way, but

it doesn't take you all the way, and

639

:

it's a lot better what you just said.

640

:

I want to talk about your day.

641

:

Actually get a little bit into the

nitty gritty, I'm thinking start

642

:

your day, open your computer, what's

your first, second, and third?

643

:

How do you do that?

644

:

Kyle: my workday starts before I opened

my computer, Justin, because I find that

645

:

as soon as I do open the computer, if I

don't have a plan, the day can kind of

646

:

spiral out of control . So before I open

my computer, I find some amount of time,

647

:

10 minutes, 30 minutes, however long it

takes for me to decide what are the top

648

:

three things I have to get done today,

non negotiable, I have to do these things.

649

:

And.

650

:

What's the number one thing I have

to do to keep like high impact,

651

:

high leverage, most strategic thing.

652

:

What is the one thing I need to get done?

653

:

And I will always budget time

to go and do those three things.

654

:

And importantly, I communicate to

my team on every Monday and every

655

:

Friday, every Monday I say, Hey,

here's what I'm focused on this week.

656

:

And again, written down documented,

here's what I'm focused on this week,

657

:

every Monday, and they do the same.

658

:

And then on Friday way, I'll do written

checkouts to say how much progress

659

:

did I make against these things?

660

:

So I have a weekly cadence that tries to

organize things into higher level buckets.

661

:

And then every day in service

of those high level buckets,

662

:

what do I need to get done?

663

:

And I move the meetings

that I don't need to have.

664

:

And I cancel the meetings

I don't need to take.

665

:

And I control my time.

666

:

And , a new way of thinking about in

this book, learned excellence, where

667

:

he talks about this calendaring process

and the way that he color codes,

668

:

his time, green, yellow, and red.

669

:

The red things, you just

absolutely can't move.

670

:

Yellows are moved for a good reason.

671

:

And greens are just get them out of here.

672

:

They can move around.

673

:

And if you think about your time in

that way, and you're not afraid to

674

:

like, really like schedule yourself,

then you're going to get a lot done

675

:

and it becomes non negotiable.

676

:

So if I block an hour to do a thing, I

damn well better do that thing or else

677

:

I'm failing myself, my team, my company.

678

:

And so be very intentional about

what you need to do every week.

679

:

Be very intentional about what you need

to do every day and plan your time so

680

:

that you can go and do these things.

681

:

And it's not rocket science, but

it's really hard to develop the

682

:

discipline to go and do this.

683

:

I highly recommend you start somewhere.

684

:

And if you can start by, what's the

number one thing you need to do today.

685

:

Even that exercise is really valuable.

686

:

And that's just been something, I

don't know how long I've been doing it.

687

:

At least probably 10 years at this point.

688

:

It's been really helpful for me.

689

:

Justin: It's a way of cutting through the

complexity, , the million and one things,

690

:

the million and one emails, meetings, it

distills it down to those bedrock items.

691

:

Kyle: And a lot of people will say, if

you look at your calendar from, yesterday

692

:

or whatever, and you just look at the

white space, you'll ask people, Hey,

693

:

what did you do during this white space?

694

:

And they'll say, Oh, I use it to catch up.

695

:

Catch up on what, control your time.

696

:

It's not to say that you shouldn't

have white space in your calendar.

697

:

I know you need to reset mentally

and all that, but you can be much

698

:

more intentional about that time.

699

:

And even if you just block 30 minutes

for inbox triage, give yourself half

700

:

an hour to be intentionally focused

on getting through your inbox, as

701

:

opposed to letting it consume you.

702

:

And then all of a sudden, two hours,

you just spent staring at your inbox and

703

:

clicking around on LinkedIn or whatever.

704

:

And like, what are you doing?

705

:

So people waste a lot of time and I

try my best to not fall victim to that.

706

:

Of course I do every now and again, I'm

human, but I try and be really intentional

707

:

about scheduling everything and owning,

controlling my actions, my activities

708

:

way more so than the other way around.

709

:

When I do it and I'm more often

than not I have a really solid plan.

710

:

I'm done by 5 or 6 p.

711

:

m I can go live my life This is what

happens and when people say they're

712

:

getting burnt out or when people say

they have too much to do a more Often

713

:

than not it's because a they're focused

on the wrong stuff They don't they're

714

:

not maintaining that do not do list

and be time management is really poor

715

:

And they're spending time on things

that are below the line that are not in

716

:

service of the things they need to do.

717

:

And they feel like they have to go

work 16 hour days to get it all done.

718

:

And more often than not, you don't.

719

:

Justin: You talked about LinkedIn , It's

been a big part of your journey, I think.

720

:

You're, you know, one of the

top B2B creators out there.

721

:

You got the little coveted blue badge,

not the little yellow ones that you can

722

:

get just by, , doing the bidding of the

AI and answering those questions, but the

723

:

blue ones that are actually hard to get.

724

:

And I think a lot of people

know you through that.

725

:

What's that experience been

like and speaking about time

726

:

management, you've prioritized

that to achieve that success there.

727

:

Why has it been important?

728

:

How's it been contributing to your growth?

729

:

Kyle: One of the most important things,

and this probably won't be terribly

730

:

surprising to you, Justin, based on

what we've talked about, for me is clear

731

:

thinking and reflection, and the posts

that you see from me are very intentional,

732

:

of course, meant to help the audience,

and I want to help as many people as

733

:

I can, but many cases, it helps me to

think through a lot of these points,

734

:

what am I trying to say, and what is

an effective way of communicating that?

735

:

And by sitting down and really

forcing myself to think and to

736

:

write and to edit and to do the

things that create a LinkedIn

737

:

post, it forces reflection for me.

738

:

So I started posting on LinkedIn every

day or most days, about four years ago.

739

:

And a lot of what I was posting on at

the time was just SDR best practices.

740

:

And it was really useful for me because

I got to sit down and really think about.

741

:

What is a good email?

742

:

I've trained 100 people on that.

743

:

I've never really thought about

breaking it down and dissecting it.

744

:

And so the force exercise of doing

that made me a much better thinker and

745

:

made me a much better presenter, maybe

a better trainer, a better enabler

746

:

and has the virtue of hopefully at

least helping a lot of other people

747

:

that are consuming the content.

748

:

So that's always been the dual purposes.

749

:

Help as many people as I can

do the job the right way or

750

:

what I think is the right way.

751

:

And crystallize my own thoughts so

that when I'm training or enabling

752

:

or bringing new product to market

or whatever, I have now the muscle

753

:

built to think and to write and to be

clear and to be a good communicator.

754

:

, that's what the LinkedIn has taught

me is how to communicate effectively

755

:

and how to think really crisply.

756

:

Justin: And this sort of transitions

nicely into the subject of marketing

757

:

generally, which, increasingly.

758

:

The ability to be out there and

actually speak directly to your

759

:

market is a big part of that.

760

:

Yes, trade shows are still there and

big ad buys and stuff like that, but

761

:

thought leaders are out there and I

saw you do that on behalf of Clary.

762

:

You're out there and you're

continuing to do that now.

763

:

How much does LinkedIn and being out there

on social play into the role of marketing

764

:

today from your point of view as a CMO?

765

:

Kyle: It's critical.

766

:

As we mentioned before, people buy from

people of course your brand matters

767

:

and of course, all those things matter,

you need to show up well, but it's not

768

:

like the 1970s where there's one option

and people are going to go buy IBM, like

769

:

people want to buy from people and the

better the people at your company are

770

:

stewards of your brand of your culture.

771

:

The better off you're going to be.

772

:

It is just such a virtuous cycle

that you can create individually.

773

:

What it helps me with is I

get to go and test messaging

774

:

and positioning all the time.

775

:

I we're launching new products

that copy AI basically every day.

776

:

And I get to be on the

front lines and say, Hey.

777

:

Here's what we just did.

778

:

Check it out.

779

:

I think it's cool.

780

:

And based on the responses that I

get from my audience, which I've been

781

:

fortunate enough to build over the

years, I can then bring it back to

782

:

the product team and say, Hey, we kind

of missed the mark here, and here.

783

:

Let's go and tweak this and

then we can roll it back out

784

:

and reintroduce it to the folks.

785

:

So I get rapid feedback loop.

786

:

On messaging and positioning.

787

:

I get super good feedback for

sales assets and for the product

788

:

team and for our website.

789

:

it's just an incredible little

Petri dish that I get rapid feedback

790

:

from a trusted audience that I

don't know how else you get that.

791

:

So brand building, demand building, and

rapid testing for messaging, positioning,

792

:

and product it's checks all the boxes.

793

:

Justin: It's addicting, isn't it?

794

:

Like that, just the ability to put

something out there and maybe it flops or

795

:

maybe people are like, yes, this is me.

796

:

Like I'm there.

797

:

Yeah.

798

:

It's a rapid response focus

group that's always on anytime.

799

:

And it's free

800

:

Kyle: It's crazy.

801

:

All it takes is 15 minutes a day from me.

802

:

Justin: When you think about marketing

generally, as you moved from sales

803

:

development into marketing, how

do you conceptualize that role?

804

:

How do you think about, the

job of a marketing leader, like

805

:

what's job one in a nutshell?

806

:

Kyle: The reason I.

807

:

Gravitated toward SDR to begin with

in my career was because it sat

808

:

right between sales and marketing.

809

:

And I was really interested in that

intersection because I sort of intuitively

810

:

grasped the fact that being an effective

SDR and SDR leader requires you to be

811

:

at least somewhat fluent, if not very

fluent in both marketing and sales.

812

:

I wouldn't trade my

background for anything.

813

:

I think I have a really good background

to lead marketing because a lot of

814

:

what SDR is doing is message testing.

815

:

We're the front lines.

816

:

And if your company allows the SDRs

allows quote unquote, to write their own

817

:

emails, we hit the keys of the castle.

818

:

We're the first brand impression

for thousands, tens of

819

:

thousands, millions of people.

820

:

And that's pretty cool.

821

:

It's a lot of pressure, but it's

a lot of responsibility as well.

822

:

And.

823

:

What I got to do was I got to learn

what are people responding to?

824

:

What about this subject line?

825

:

What about this value prop?

826

:

What about the way we describe what our

product does is interesting to people.

827

:

And I developed this capacity to avoid

some of the pitfalls of marketers,

828

:

which is using fancy language

unnecessarily, or being really focused

829

:

on yourself instead of your audience.

830

:

And so what is job one

of a marketing leader?

831

:

Enormous customer empathy, really

understanding the problems.

832

:

And their jobs to be done and showing

them how your product or solution

833

:

or service or whatever is a better

way of accomplishing those things.

834

:

And if you can do that and you

have a really deep understanding

835

:

of your customer and you can

communicate to them effectively,

836

:

that's way more than half the battle.

837

:

Justin: Every great marketing

leader I speak to seems to

838

:

say some variation of that.

839

:

It pleases me that there's

this consistency, you know,

840

:

amidst all the different things

that change and come and go.

841

:

That those core truths remain

self evident, so to speak.

842

:

And speaking of things that

change in the latest and the

843

:

greatest, let's talk about Copy.

844

:

ai and, is it Copy.

845

:

ai or Copy.

846

:

ai?

847

:

How do I say the name?

848

:

Copy.

849

:

ai.

850

:

I'm looking at your resume again.

851

:

It looks like the second time that

you kind of made a jump from a

852

:

later to an earlier stage company.

853

:

Like, kind of say like, oh,

you reached a certain point and

854

:

you're like, I gotta go earlier.

855

:

Is that your happy place?

856

:

And why make a move at this time?

857

:

Clary's a great company.

858

:

You had a great, position there.

859

:

It's fantastic.

860

:

And yet there was something here

that drew you to a new company.

861

:

Kyle: I love.

862

:

Everything about Clary, the

people, the product, the customers

863

:

at such a well run company.

864

:

I don't know if there's a single person

more responsible for my growth than

865

:

a person named Kevin Fisher, who is

the chief customer officer at Clary.

866

:

And he's just been in my corner and

my strongest advocate for a long time.

867

:

Number two on the list is CEO at

Clary, Andy Byrne, a long way of

868

:

saying leaving Clary was very hard.

869

:

But you're right.

870

:

I love the small companies.

871

:

I love the speed, the agility.

872

:

I love the pressure.

873

:

I love to build.

874

:

And that was the main thing for me.

875

:

I wanted to go back to a smaller

company to really be in that

876

:

faster paced environment again.

877

:

And also working in AI,

like it's not going away.

878

:

I want to be really well positioned or

position myself as a marketing leader.

879

:

In generative AI or in AI,

because that's the future.

880

:

So I have pretty firm conviction

that copy AI is going to go very

881

:

well for a multitude of reasons.

882

:

The very least I learn a

ton about how to position AI

883

:

products, how to sell AI products.

884

:

And I sort of future proof my

own career for that, to that end.

885

:

So that was kind of my calculus

wanting to go back to a smaller

886

:

company to build again in a new

and developing and exciting.

887

:

Industry or technology space

rather that I think is going to be

888

:

here for as long as we're alive.

889

:

Justin: So I've been playing with

your tool well before this interview.

890

:

I, around the New Year's, I started

really digging deep into AI platforms,

891

:

and yours was one platform still.

892

:

Just trying to, like you said,

make sense of this landscape.

893

:

And I'm going to read to you what

I'm like, what I took away from it.

894

:

Maybe you can tell me how accurate I am.

895

:

But one of the things that was

very interesting, yes, it does.

896

:

It can generate copy as the name suggests.

897

:

But unlike chat GPT, where it's kind

of like these prompts existing in

898

:

isolation, like you can upload your

documents you know, your positioning

899

:

statements, your various things, they

create a corpus of company specific

900

:

information that the platform can look to.

901

:

And then there's a whole workflow thing

like member of your team, Jacqueline, was

902

:

responding to me on LinkedIn a few times

and saying like, yeah, we can do this.

903

:

We can do that.

904

:

Like you have this

workflow engine built in.

905

:

So there's all this kind of

disparate pieces, generating copy

906

:

consuming and analyzing existing

texts and leveraging that.

907

:

And then the ability to

run automated workflows.

908

:

Am I even on point in understanding

what it does correctly?

909

:

And how do you see all these

pieces working together

910

:

going forward for GDM teams?

911

:

Kyle: You're spot on Justin.

912

:

That's a really good read on what we do.

913

:

I would say most people are pretty

familiar with chat GPT or with Bard.

914

:

And that effect of that ecosystem

of that chat bot, that AI chat

915

:

client is the building blocks

for what we call workflows.

916

:

What workflows are is they are.

917

:

Chained together prompts effectively.

918

:

That are purpose built to

achieve some sort of outcome.

919

:

So for example, take this sales

transcript and write a blog post based

920

:

on the aha moments in the sales meeting.

921

:

If you were to use chat, GBT to do

this, you would have to first you'd

922

:

have to share the transcript with

them with has its own security issues,

923

:

but you'd have to say, Read this

transcript, find the moments where the

924

:

prospect had some sort of aha moment.

925

:

Extract that aha moment and

extract the key points from it.

926

:

And then write a blog post in this format.

927

:

And you'd have to issue those

prompts to chat GBT one at a time.

928

:

And then that's all you have

to do that over and over again.

929

:

If you ever want to create blog, what we

can do is we codify all of those actions

930

:

into a single workflow that you can then.

931

:

Install across your business and

anybody at your business can use

932

:

it for whatever purpose they want.

933

:

And that is obviously just one example of.

934

:

Infinite examples of things that you

can do using our workflow engine.

935

:

Now, the second thing that I think

is pretty cool is we can integrate

936

:

with any of your systems or tools

that you have, whether that's your

937

:

CRM or it's productivity tools or

it's notion or coda or whatever you

938

:

can integrate our workflows into.

939

:

So for example, we run a lead scoring

workflow internally, which is really cool.

940

:

And what the lead scoring

workflow does is it says.

941

:

Given this inbound lead, look

at their LinkedIn profile.

942

:

So there's a workflow that matches

email address to LinkedIn profile,

943

:

scrape their LinkedIn profile,

learn about their work history.

944

:

Look at their account, put together an

account plan, understand what's going

945

:

well, or what isn't going well at their

account, score this lead based on that

946

:

lead information and account information,

route that lead to an AE and write a

947

:

handful of emails to that person based

on likely use cases for our product.

948

:

And that happens with every single

inbound lead that comes our way.

949

:

All of that information gets

written to the lead record

950

:

and account record in our CRM.

951

:

So all the account planning

information is there.

952

:

All the lead information is there and the

sales rep doesn't have to lift a finger.

953

:

They just have their lead list and

they see it fully enriched with all the

954

:

information they care about, all the

account information they care about.

955

:

And when they call that person,

they have recommended use cases.

956

:

For copy AI and you know, whatever

the persona is that came our way.

957

:

And they can have an informed,

intelligent conversation with that

958

:

person because everything they need.

959

:

It's right there in their flow of work.

960

:

It doesn't require any change management.

961

:

It doesn't require them

to adopt new tools.

962

:

They just get it all, everything

they need right in their systems.

963

:

And so it's that kind of platform

orientation, that kind of

964

:

infrastructure orientation that

makes copy AI really powerful

965

:

Justin: My own point of view

on AI has been like, let's

966

:

use it to do the repetitive.

967

:

Things that a machine can excel at.

968

:

Finding information,

extracting information.

969

:

You don't need a human's insight or a

mind doing that and then use it to enable

970

:

that person to do their job better.

971

:

And I think, you know, it ties back to

the first question on SDRs and what's

972

:

their future I think the way that you

just communicated that vision to me,

973

:

like someone logging in and instead of

just like, all right, who's this person?

974

:

Let me find out about them.

975

:

It's like all there so what

efficiencies have you seen or

976

:

whatever you can share, feel

comfortable sharing with your sellers?

977

:

Is it going right to the

AE in your case right now?

978

:

Or do you have SDRs that are getting that?

979

:

Kyle: What we do, Justin is , lead

scoring is super important, and so often

980

:

really underwhelming and something of

a black box and so sales teams, myself

981

:

included, more or less completely

distrust lead scoring because they don't

982

:

actually understand what its inputs are.

983

:

And so what we're able to do

is we're able to qualitatively.

984

:

Define what a good lead is for us and

why, so we can say a tier one lead for us

985

:

comes from companies, XYZ size, this level

of seniority and this kind of tech sack.

986

:

And then the AI goes and does

all the matching and then gives

987

:

a rationale to the salesperson to

say, this is a tier one lead because

988

:

XYZ reason they use this tool.

989

:

They've been at the company

this long And so we're able to.

990

:

Both limit the universe of leads that get

followed up on, which is a good thing.

991

:

Like it doesn't, we're not drowning

our reps and be when they are calling

992

:

down on those reps, they have actual

real information that they can use.

993

:

So long way of saying conversion rates,

just from that one little workflow

994

:

of lead scoring conversion rates from

lead to opportunity are like 80%.

995

:

Because of the workflows

that we've created.

996

:

not doing this at hyper scale yet,

but we're talking about probably

997

:

somewhere a hundred or so leads a week.

998

:

In that, tier one definition, which

is the center of the ICP bullseye

999

:

for us, and we're getting a huge

conversion rate of those leads.

:

00:49:16,137 --> 00:49:18,607

We're not down to the 1

percent conversion rate.

:

00:49:18,607 --> 00:49:22,117

That's so many other organizations

see when they're just throwing mass

:

00:49:22,137 --> 00:49:24,177

volume indiscriminately at their team.

:

00:49:24,177 --> 00:49:26,737

So we're trying to find efficiencies

that way and not waste people's

:

00:49:26,747 --> 00:49:28,717

time with underqualified leads.

:

00:49:29,545 --> 00:49:32,195

Justin: This is probably an impossible

question to answer, but it's maybe

:

00:49:32,195 --> 00:49:35,435

the last one we'll have time for,

so might as well throw it out there.

:

00:49:35,845 --> 00:49:39,475

We just said that the things that

you're talking about today would have

:

00:49:39,475 --> 00:49:43,905

seemed like, you know, Jetsons level,

futuristic 18 months, 2 years ago.

:

00:49:44,585 --> 00:49:47,348

And now I'm going to ask you going

to be happening in 2 to 3 years.

:

00:49:47,358 --> 00:49:51,573

Let's assume, Copy AI big company,

it's hugely successful, but Clearly

:

00:49:51,573 --> 00:49:55,303

you and your team are thinking about

this as much or more as anybody else

:

00:49:55,303 --> 00:49:56,493

out there because it's your business.

:

00:49:56,703 --> 00:49:59,113

Paint me a vision of this

future, what will it look like?

:

00:50:00,053 --> 00:50:02,653

Kyle: The paradigm that we're all

used to right now is these models that

:

00:50:02,653 --> 00:50:04,693

we call LLMs, large language models.

:

00:50:04,963 --> 00:50:08,423

And these LLMs that we're interacting

with that are trained to produce some

:

00:50:08,423 --> 00:50:09,943

sort of, content creation for us.

:

00:50:10,113 --> 00:50:11,893

And they're very useful,

but they're generalized.

:

00:50:12,533 --> 00:50:14,793

There is a universe in the

not too distant future.

:

00:50:14,803 --> 00:50:19,543

That's more of a S L M a small

language model, which is all of your

:

00:50:19,573 --> 00:50:25,143

company's information into a system

like copy AI as an example, so that

:

00:50:25,143 --> 00:50:26,873

you can go and ask any question.

:

00:50:27,403 --> 00:50:30,973

Build any workflow, basically

power your entire business.

:

00:50:31,523 --> 00:50:34,073

That's specific and

bespoke to your business.

:

00:50:34,323 --> 00:50:38,653

So I know that's not super specific and

I know that sounds a little bit broad,

:

00:50:38,893 --> 00:50:44,923

but I see that as the next era of

business intelligence is all of these

:

00:50:45,113 --> 00:50:47,383

AI capabilities that are trained on.

:

00:50:47,693 --> 00:50:51,333

Your data trained on your information,

that knowledge base that you said you

:

00:50:51,343 --> 00:50:55,133

have just in 150 pages of documentation,

like that's the language model.

:

00:50:55,463 --> 00:50:59,563

And if you went and you have the right

architecture to put that into an AI system

:

00:50:59,563 --> 00:51:03,073

and you could then go query it in any

way or build workflows against it in any

:

00:51:03,073 --> 00:51:04,973

way, imagine how powerful that would be.

:

00:51:05,503 --> 00:51:08,203

And so that's what we believe is

going to happen for businesses.

:

00:51:08,233 --> 00:51:08,863

Probably not.

:

00:51:08,863 --> 00:51:10,013

It's not going to take five years.

:

00:51:10,023 --> 00:51:11,413

I think it's sooner than that.

:

00:51:12,023 --> 00:51:14,373

Justin: Is Copy AI going to

provide the infrastructure for

:

00:51:14,373 --> 00:51:15,803

companies to build those models?

:

00:51:15,803 --> 00:51:19,013

Or do you think those models will just

exist and then you'll tap into them?

:

00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:23,020

Kyle: think it has to be guided or

guarded in some way because there's

:

00:51:23,020 --> 00:51:24,670

so much security concern there.

:

00:51:25,020 --> 00:51:27,810

Product team, if you're listening to

this, I'm not making any promises.

:

00:51:27,830 --> 00:51:28,560

I don't know,

:

00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:29,570

Justin: Safe harbor.

:

00:51:29,980 --> 00:51:30,190

Kyle: yeah.

:

00:51:30,190 --> 00:51:32,570

Say if I were exactly, I think

that's the direction we're going.

:

00:51:32,580 --> 00:51:33,460

I hope it is anyway.

:

00:51:33,460 --> 00:51:34,830

Cause it's so valuable.

:

00:51:35,637 --> 00:51:36,987

Justin: Fascinating chat, Kyle.

:

00:51:37,077 --> 00:51:39,877

I'm so happy that you could

come speak with me today.

:

00:51:39,877 --> 00:51:42,877

We'll be watching carefully

what you and the team do.

:

00:51:43,327 --> 00:51:44,337

And thank you so much.

:

00:51:44,707 --> 00:51:45,487

Kyle: It's been a pleasure, Justin.

:

00:51:45,487 --> 00:51:46,464

Thanks again for having me.

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About the Podcast

RevOps FM
Thinking out loud about RevOps and go-to-market strategy.
This podcast is your weekly masterclass on becoming a better revenue operator. We challenge conventional wisdom and dig into what actually works for building predictable revenue at scale.

For show notes and extra resources, visit https://revops.fm/show

Key topics include: marketing technology, sales technology, marketing operations, sales operations, process optimization, team structure, planning, reporting, forecasting, workflow automation, and GTM strategy.

About your host

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Justin Norris

Justin has over 15 years as a marketing, operations, and GTM professional.

He's worked almost exclusively at startups, including a successful exit. As an operations consultant, he's been a trusted partner to numerous SaaS "unicorns" and Fortune 500s.