A Deep Dive into HockeyStack's GTM Playbook - Emir Atli

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

B2B SaaS is a very formulaic industry if

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you really think about it.

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Almost every company sounds the same.

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They look the same.

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They have the same website.

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And the same go to market playbook, but

every now and then a company decides

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to do things a little bit differently.

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They don't just follow the steps

that everyone else runs and

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that VCs expect, they innovate.

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And I'm fascinated by these

examples because sometimes it's

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in these moments of originality.

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And creative thinking that we see

the playbooks of tomorrow emerging.

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So HockeyStack is one of

these companies for me.

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They make a software for B2B attribution,

which is a category I follow pretty

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closely and perhaps 10 months ago,

maybe more, they just sort of burst

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into my LinkedIn feed with content

that is original and interesting

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and generating a lot of attention.

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And they're also quite transparent

about their effort to build a

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different type of go-to-market strategy.

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So it's been really cool to watch

that unfold I wanted to go deeper

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behind the scenes on HockeyStack,

the company and the product.

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And so I reached out to Emir

Atli, who is Chief Revenue Officer

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and Co-founder HockeyStack.

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And he was good enough to agree

to spend some time with me.

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So Amir, welcome to the show.

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Emir Atli: you so much for

the kind words, Justin.

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Really appreciate it.

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Excited to chat more.

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Justin Norris: Awesome.

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So like I said, you know, HockeyStack

just kind of like appeared.

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I felt really surrounded by it,

which is a, a really good thing.

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But I don't know a lot about how you

founded the company, where it comes from.

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Maybe you can just walk us through that.

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Emir Atli: Yeah, the name

comes from Hockey Stick Growth.

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hockey stick.com was taken by a stick

company, so we went with HockeyStack.

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this was a problem that we Had

before HockeyStack, kind of like

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understanding the custom journey

and we were experiencing it more.

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we had a mobile app and we were

experiencing it in our mobile

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app, kind of like post signup.

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we developed a product analytics

software and through time by pivoting

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and by talking to more people.

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after two three pivots, we landed on

revenue attribution for B2B companies.

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in about a year, hundreds of marketers

started using this tool our kind of

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plan was shaking up the attribution

category a little bit because it's not

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been innovating, for a very long time.

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Ever since

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Justin Norris: Bizible,

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Emir Atli: They landed few big

customers, a new round couple months ago.

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And then we went with the GTM analytics

category because our main goal is to

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bring sales team into the product as well.

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recently we chose a new feature set,

which I think you saw, marketing mix

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Justin Norris: modelling

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Emir Atli: forecasting, budget

optimization, with throughing

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into GTM analytics category.

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Justin Norris: you mentioned

very accurately that the

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category, hasn't evolved a ton.

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I mean, I started using

Bizible maybe back in: 2015

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It was the only tool at the time

that kind of did from soup to nuts in

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terms of collecting the data, first

party data on the front end, doing

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the modeling, presenting it to you.

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But then of course, like all companies

seem to do when they get acquired,

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it sort of stopped and stagnated.

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What did you see, that you could

disrupt within that category

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Emir Atli: the first thing

was, say if we take a few steps

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back, it was like before biz.

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There was just like first session and

last touch, and then Bizible came up.

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They choose multi touch attribution

models, but the problem is Bizible

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depends on Salesforce campaigns, and

Salesforce is set up and most companies

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don't have the best setup for Salesforce.

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And then Bizible depends

on Salesforce and Bizible.

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The only reason that you get Bizible is to

clean the data so that you can understand

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what's working, what's not working.

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And it depends on Salesforce.

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So it's massive data.

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So the first thing was not depending

on Salesforce, so that we can get the

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Salesforce campaigns, but we can also

actually revenue towards everything.

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The second thing was

set up process Bizible.

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Takes months to implement and often

after, that's still hard to use.

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Justin Norris: Hockeystack

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Emir Atli: takes.

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A few minutes to integrate with

all of your tools and then two

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weeks to onboard completely.

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and the third thing was additional

touch points, like impressions

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from ad platforms so that we can

complete the customer journey.

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I take a look at the reason why

people buy tools like HockeyStack.

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It's mainly two reasons.

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One proving contribution And

the second thing is optimizing.

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so for the first thing, even if you

innovate, it's not the place where

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you can innovate the most, but the

optimization part is my opinion, where

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we could innovate a little bit more.

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so we innovated in that, in the way

that people can optimize their campaigns

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usingHockeyStack, time to value.

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In those areas, we

innovated in about a year.

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we had success in shaking things

up in this category, reached a lot

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of customers, and then just pivoted

because the problem is attribution.

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it has a bad reputation,

it's harder to sell.

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Uh, I know that from the start.

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So yeah, the feature for HockeyStack is

gonna be Turning data into revenue with

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automation starting in January, so that

we can actually put that data into work.

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Justin Norris: maybe Let's

just talk a little bit about

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your Go-to market strategy.

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One of the things I've really

enjoyed following you on LinkedIn

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is you're very open and transparent

about intentional in designing your

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go-to market, how your funnel works.

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you seem to be really punching kind

of above your weight class in terms of

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the size of the team you have and the

results that you're able to achieve.

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Can you walk us through what you're

doing and, and maybe how it differs a

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bit from the traditional SaaS playbook.

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Emir Atli: so from the start, LinkedIn

has been super important for us.

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We focused on LinkedIn heavily.

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Our goal was to dominate LinkedIn and

then move to other platforms, diversify

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our marketing strategy a little bit more.

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So from the start, me and my co-founder,

started posting every single day,

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sometimes twice a day, and started

gaining momentum that way, started

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getting followers, and then we started

adding more people like Obed, our head of

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content to our head of product marketing,

sales engineering, and for our GTM team.

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especially on marketing and sales teams.

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My first interview question is, are you

open to posting on LinkedIn regularly

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If you have the resources, available.

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And it's critical for me because I

think every single GTM member, should

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bring in revenue, not just a sales team.

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So our kind of approach was, the best

quality content at the highest quantity

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and We started posting regularly.

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the way that we do it is every

single person on our team

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has different personalities.

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So for example, I'm more on the

executive side, I'm managing

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our marketing and sales.

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And ED is more on the creative marketing

side too, is more head of product

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marketing and more like measurement side.

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and I think what we do differently

is when people say brand awareness,

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they mean that every single person

in our industry should know about us.

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And then you see companies like

Apollo with incredible budgets.

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There's like a social team of 10

people, everyone knows about Apollo,

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but not everyone knows what Apollo does.

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Even if people know what Apollo does,

they don't know what's diff what's the

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difference between Apollo and ZoomInfo?

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No one, no one knows.

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So my approach was we

need to be efficient.

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if most people know about us, that's

good, but I, I would prefer less people.

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Know about us, but they would know

what we are doing and what's the

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difference between HockeyStack

and Bizible and other platforms.

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we took a look at our previous content

and I saw that brand awareness actually

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means making marketers smarter.

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Our educational content outperforms

any other type of content because

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people log into LinkedIn to learn.

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we kind of decided that we

need to make market smarter

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in marketing and measurement.

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So.

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I am kind of posting about how we are

doing marketing and what are the business

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results and how can you communicate those

results to your CEO and CMO or with your

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board, because I'm more on the executive

side, people expect me to talk about that.

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And then Ed is head of content.

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He's talking about how

can you be more creative?

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How can you do better marketing?

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And Drew is talking about how

can you be better at measurement?

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So we have this personalities,

people expect to see.

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And if we have a content calendar

shared with everyone on the team.

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And then we have the flow, where

we host all of our content,

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which I think we'll talk more.

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It's our media company.

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It's like a Netflix for PB marketers.

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And then we have

HockeyHockeyStack Academy.

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So basically we create content at the

high quantity, con, then we store

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these content pieces in different

places like Cusack and Flow, and then be

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distributed across our social channels.

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And then we engage with the audience.

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Justin Norris: And this approach

reminds me a lot of the kind of

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demand creation methodology that Chris

Walker from Refine Labs has really

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popularized over the past few years.

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Were you guys influenced by

him or is this just an approach

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that you came to independently?

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Emir Atli: I'm a big fan of Chris.

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Um, A lot of times we had

dinner in San Francisco.

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Chris is amazing, but I think we have

some differences in our approach.

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I'm sure we got influenced like

any other PE person in our,

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Justin Norris: I think every, everybody

on LinkedIn has been influenced

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by Chris in the last few years.

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Emir Atli: Yeah, yeah, of course.

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I think we got inspired probably,

and then we like changed a few

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pieces and built our own playbook.

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Justin Norris: talking a bit

about, your content, and you

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mentioned Ohad a few times.

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He's somebody else on your team that

I just see all the time on LinkedIn.

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He, it has almost a, I don't know if he

would think of it this way or if you think

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of it this way, but I think of it kind of

like a, like a Gen Z approach to content.

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Like it's got a lot of memes, it's got

a lot of like video game references.

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It's fun.

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It has music.

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Is that a, is that just him and

his personality, or is that a

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deliberate strategy that you pursue?

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Emir Atli: It's his personality,

but, uh, our head of content is

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an exceptional talent that I'm

really proud to have on our team.

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It's his personality.

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yeah, I think like our approach has

been blending in our personalities

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and then finding the balance

between entertainment and education.

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We have different series on the flow

that we collaborate with other marketers.

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So if we collaborate with other marketers,

we don't talk about HockeyStack at all.

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But then if we do five series that doesn't

talk about HockeyStack, but still educate

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the marketers, then we do one series

about HockeyStack that we can distribute.

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we struggle to find this balance,

honestly, but usually we're pretty

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good at finding the balance and letting

people know what we do in creative ways.

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Justin Norris: and you mentioned the

flow a few times and I looked at it and

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I think your description and Netflix

for marketers is pretty accurate.

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really nice experience.

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It's got all sorts of shows and content.

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Which like I think is amazing.

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What, what's the incentive for

these other creators to work

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with you on this platform?

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Emir Atli: I think it's mostly

being part of something new.

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There's also we paid them per

episode, but it's not nothing huge.

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but I think they wanna

be part of something new.

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They want to create content

with other marketers and they

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also get good brand awareness.

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We get a couple consultants like

agency owners and people like that who

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said they got a really good business.

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After they started a series.

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So it's a bunch of things, but

what I hear from most of them is

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they wanna be a part of the flow.

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Justin Norris: shifting gears a little

bit into the sales side of things I

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was just looking as I was preparing

for this at some of your LinkedIn posts

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and some of the things that you shared,

which I thought were really interesting.

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one of them was you have your interactive

demo and that interactive demo is kind

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of like this anchor of sales funnel.

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and then another one, . Was that

you've really worked hard on

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fine tuning your sales process.

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quote, you here, wanted to

make it a differentiator.

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You worked on it for dozens of hours,

perfected each follow up email every

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inch of your digital sales room,

every second of your demo calls.

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You really were intentional about getting

that process tight, which is awesome.

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Tell me like, about what that looks like.

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Emir Atli: so our interactive

demo, we built it.

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when we first launched,

we built it ourselves.

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We still maintain, it's our own code.

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We built it every single

part of it ourselves.

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We don't, we don't rely on any other tool,

and I have strong opinions about this.

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so the sales process, we are

Almost a hundred percent in bond.

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got some, a bond too, but it's

mostly, from like people who

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engage with our live demo.

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We send emails, we demos that way.

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But, have a significant spend on ad

platforms, LinkedIn ads, Google ads.

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we are spending a lot on those

platforms and we have social going on.

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So if people enter the website, they

usually look at our live demo and then

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from live demo they contact sales.

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And then it gets to our sales team.

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Sometimes it gets to me and the

first call is usually 45 minutes.

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We do like a discovery, not

the boring type for the of it.

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And then we do product demo, and

then we have a digital sales room.

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We are using doc dot, us.

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and then we usually Take

a consultative approach.

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So our goal last quarter for the last two

quarters has been to make our sales team

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a consultant rather than a salesperson.

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so our goal is to sell before the sales

call so that our sales team, Don't need

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to force people to book the second call.

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Don't need to kind of

like force people to buy.

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They just need to answer.

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A few questions, specifics, how

does it work with our setup?

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How does it work with

our Salesforce instance?

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So that integrated with this

platform, of like a Consultant really.

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then we send that digital sales

room where they can find every

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single information they need.

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From customer case studies to recap the

demo call according to book another call.

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You can just do it there.

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So if you're kind of like minimizing

the time you spend with us, I know from

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my own experience I got a lot of tools.

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I need to do it at my own pace.

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I don't need to adopt to a sales

persons or sales team space.

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I don't need to adopt my pace

to your quarterly pipeline goals

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or like your pricing changes,

whatever you want to force me to do.

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So.

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I know that and buyer kind

of controls the sales cycle.

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course there are areas that we can

control the sales cycle and we do them

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too, but like perfecting our digital

sales room has been a massive advantage.

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And then the other thing was

perfecting our live demo.

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We did a lot of tests on platforms like

Winter and on our demo calls and we know

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what's driving revenue on our live demo.

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and about . 75 to 80% of demo

requests, first checkout, live

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demo, and then contact sales.

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So they have a pretty, of like a

rough idea of what we do and what

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they're gonna see in the demo.

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then after that it's usually

they sometimes book a second

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call, sometimes more technical

call then go through with that.

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so how we approach differentiating our

sales call, quite honestly, Two or three

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hires that I made, I made them a list.

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I didn't share this anywhere publicly,

but I made them a list of competitors.

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I said, you are gonna join in two weeks.

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schedule a call with all

of these competitors.

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Send me the recordings and tell me what

you about the demos, and ask how are

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they different from HockeyStack and

a bunch of other questions like that.

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And they all did that.

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And then.

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When I watch them, it's like, if

we can make our sales process a

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little bit different, that's a huge

advantage for us because honestly,

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in analytics products, attribution

platforms, demos really are boring.

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so else that we do is we are showing

the customer's journey on the demo.

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So we just like log into our own instance

of HockeyStack and show you what you

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have been doing on our website and the

Other people on your team's journeys.

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So we do stuff like this to

differentiate our sales process

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a little bit more to win deals.

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Justin Norris: And are you collecting

like a hundred percent of people that

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I would call hand raisers, like people

that have requested a demo or are you

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collecting lower intent leads as well?

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In various ways

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Emir Atli: No.

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we intentionally, I think I did

a post about this two weeks ago.

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We intentionally reduced our pipeline

by 50% over the last two months.

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we have a strict ICP,

kinda like checklist.

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We look at the employee size, we

look at marketing team size, we look

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at operations team sales because

it's supreme important for us.

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then we look at spend and total

number of leads per month on average.

310

: 00:15:08

And then we accept, the request that way.

311

: 00:15:10

So we reject about half of

our, demo requests per month.

312

: 00:15:13

Justin Norris: And if people are

. Watching on the flow, let's say,

313

: 00:15:18

do they become known to you in some

way or is all of that top of the

314

: 00:15:21

funnel activity remain anonymous and

you're okay with that until such time

315

: 00:15:25

as they decide to request a demo?

316

: 00:15:27

Emir Atli: they subscribe or if they.

317

: 00:15:29

So we have a couple of gated content.

318

: 00:15:31

If they enter the email addresses in

anywhere, they're identified for flow.

319

: 00:15:35

We are also planning on launching

LinkedIn login, so that people can

320

: 00:15:38

log in and then comment on episodes.

321

: 00:15:41

Justin Norris: Got it.

322

: 00:15:41

moving kind of linearly through

your funnel into post-sales part,

323

: 00:15:46

what does that implementation

process look like for you?

324

: 00:15:49

backstory here, I mean, I

was a Bizible consultant.

325

: 00:15:52

For a long time, so I kind of

know what that, you mentioned

326

: 00:15:54

the process implementing Bizible.

327

: 00:15:55

I know what that looks like.

328

: 00:15:56

I'm curious what it looks

like for HockeyStack.

329

: 00:15:58

Emir Atli: Yeah.

330

: 00:15:59

Right now, you create an account

you integrate with your platforms.

331

: 00:16:02

All integrations, sorry, one

click native integrations.

332

: 00:16:05

So you need an admin to log into

Salesforce, log into market, give

333

: 00:16:09

us permission in about a day.

334

: 00:16:11

We pull in the last two years of data.

335

: 00:16:13

and then we match all the lifecycle stages

to your lifecycle stages, your campaigns.

336

: 00:16:18

That's totally on us.

337

: 00:16:19

And then we have a call with your

operations people, to review lifecycle

338

: 00:16:23

stages, and then to ask if there's

anything else we need to be careful about.

339

: 00:16:27

Sometimes people store

financial aid on Snowflake.

340

: 00:16:30

All updated points on the HCRM, if there

are anything like that, and there's any

341

: 00:16:34

other funnels that we need to be aware of.

342

: 00:16:37

And then after that, in about a

week to 10 days, we prepare all

343

: 00:16:40

the initial dashboards we do a to

show them how they can find their

344

: 00:16:44

properties, how they can build a report

themselves, becauseHockeyStack also

345

: 00:16:48

have a no-code dashboard builder.

346

: 00:16:50

Most of our customers are getting onboard

in two weeks, sometimes shorter, but

347

: 00:16:54

in about two weeks, we expect you to

be completely onboarded with initial 10

348

: 00:16:58

or so dashboards and user training, and

you have a Slack channel, your current

349

: 00:17:03

customer success goals if you want.

350

: 00:17:04

Justin Norris: And so you have a CS team.

351

: 00:17:06

Like let's say I signed up,

would my company be assigned

352

: 00:17:08

a individual CSS person?

353

: 00:17:10

Emir Atli: Yeah.

354

: 00:17:10

Justin Norris: and you thought that

through as well in a, in a similar

355

: 00:17:13

way of trying to be differentiated?

356

: 00:17:15

Kind of a backstory to that question.

357

: 00:17:17

Is, in doing these sorts of

implementations, you can do a lot of work.

358

: 00:17:21

You know, prepping the data, getting

the data clean, building taxonomy,

359

: 00:17:24

building out a system, trying to

make it as bulletproof as possible.

360

: 00:17:27

And then you often, I found at least

show dashboards to execs or people

361

: 00:17:32

on the team and they're kinda like,

ah, yeah, actually, they think they,

362

: 00:17:36

what they think they want is not

always . What they actually want

363

: 00:17:39

or what they think they want is not

always actually that useful to them.

364

: 00:17:42

Once they get it, they're

not sure what to do with it.

365

: 00:17:44

Is this something that you've seen how do

you circumvent that problem if you have?

366

: 00:17:47

Emir Atli: Yeah, if I take a couple steps

back, I think right now we are winning

367

: 00:17:52

about 95, 90 6% of our competitive deals,

Bizible and a few other competitors.

368

: 00:17:58

Mainly with our dashboard builder

because people, as I see, don't

369

: 00:18:03

wanna be trapped into templates

they wanna build it themselves.

370

: 00:18:07

They wanna change models, change

columns, report themselves change.

371

: 00:18:12

I know time range conversion

with knows everything.

372

: 00:18:14

They wanna be able to do that.

373

: 00:18:16

So we built a NOCO dashboard builder

where anyone can build a report

374

: 00:18:19

without any technical knowledge

and everything is customizable.

375

: 00:18:22

So that was one part.

376

: 00:18:23

And then the other part was, what

I see from our customer interviews

377

: 00:18:27

and post-sales interviews.

378

: 00:18:29

Most people say that they see us as a

strategic partner, not just a vendor.

379

: 00:18:33

They will be With them throughout

their journey because as companies

380

: 00:18:37

grow, their marketing gets diversified.

381

: 00:18:39

As their marketing gets diversified,

their measurement needs grow as well.

382

: 00:18:43

So they need a partner that they're

not gonna outgrow, and they will be

383

: 00:18:46

with them throughout that journey.

384

: 00:18:48

it can be a customer success

team, it can be a technical team.

385

: 00:18:51

So totally we see customer success as

a differentiator and we see these core

386

: 00:18:57

features as differentiators as well.

387

: 00:18:59

Justin Norris: drilling in in a

little bit, and I hope you don't

388

: 00:19:01

mind if I just go into the weeds

here 'cause I like to do that.

389

: 00:19:03

But on the data side, this is

often where these projects live

390

: 00:19:07

or die from my point of view.

391

: 00:19:09

you're sucking in data, you know, it

has a certain structure to it, but

392

: 00:19:12

there's lots of problems, stitching

identities together across platforms.

393

: 00:19:17

Campaigns that may not be

normalized, opportunities

394

: 00:19:20

that don't have contact roles.

395

: 00:19:21

I mean, there's a million things

I'm sure that you've run into.

396

: 00:19:24

you have some kind of engine under

the hood that is taking all that

397

: 00:19:28

together and stitching it into a hole?

398

: 00:19:29

Or how have you looked

at solving that problem?

399

: 00:19:31

Emir Atli: Yeah.

400

: 00:19:31

it's our, one of the unique value

propositions is we clean all of the data

401

: 00:19:35

and we stitch the data on our backend, our

secret sauce, so we have a data structure.

402

: 00:19:41

That's, associating leads to

accounts, accounts to account

403

: 00:19:45

activity, leads to lead activity, and

together an account based journey.

404

: 00:19:48

And then all of the reports

depend on that account structure.

405

: 00:19:51

so even if, for example, a person

is not associated with an account

406

: 00:19:55

or with an opportunity, but they,

with the website and we are able to

407

: 00:19:58

identify them with reverse IP or with

an email, we still associate that lead

408

: 00:20:02

that opportunity on HockeyStack so.

409

: 00:20:05

It's like getting the data, cleaning

the data, and normalizing it so

410

: 00:20:08

that we can make sense of the data.

411

: 00:20:10

Justin Norris: And talking

about customer journey.

412

: 00:20:12

It's interesting that you can take

an individual customer journey

413

: 00:20:15

and everybody really likes it.

414

: 00:20:16

You say, oh look, here's Acme, and they

bought our stuff and there was these five

415

: 00:20:20

people involved and here's the eBooks that

they downloaded, and here's the events

416

: 00:20:24

that they intended, and then they won.

417

: 00:20:25

And everyone's just like,

that is fascinating.

418

: 00:20:27

They really eat that up.

419

: 00:20:28

And the challenge becomes when you

start layering those journeys on

420

: 00:20:32

top of each other, after like two,

you really can't draw very many

421

: 00:20:35

meaningful conclusions anymore.

422

: 00:20:37

Like it starts to just become . a soup.

423

: 00:20:39

how do you think about that problem?

424

: 00:20:40

Like where do you guide people to say,

here's how we should actually interpret

425

: 00:20:43

this data to make better decisions?

426

: 00:20:46

Emir Atli: Yeah.

427

: 00:20:46

This is one of our key priorities in Q1

with architect academy's measurement side.

428

: 00:20:51

I think there's a big gap in the market

in the way that people need to know

429

: 00:20:55

and learn better how to optimize how

to look at the data to tell stories.

430

: 00:20:59

The number one thing that I hear on

demo calls is I'm looking to get a

431

: 00:21:03

tool so that I can tell better stories.

432

: 00:21:05

I would look at organic acquisition, paid

acquisition as two separate, and then an

433

: 00:21:10

overview report that will get everything.

434

: 00:21:12

what we do is we are looking at these

reports with multi attribution models.

435

: 00:21:16

And then we kind of can see

the common touch points.

436

: 00:21:20

But then the problem with attribution

models is they just get the entire credit

437

: 00:21:23

divided into total number of touch points.

438

: 00:21:25

So some touch point might

not be really valuable.

439

: 00:21:28

And then we look at incrementality

reports that we have on HockeyStack to

440

: 00:21:32

see kind of like the incremental revenue

influence of different touch points.

441

: 00:21:35

and then a combination

of those two things.

442

: 00:21:38

Gimme the understanding of

what's really is working.

443

: 00:21:41

so I think that's challenging,

but also it comes from kinda like

444

: 00:21:45

the incentives that people get.

445

: 00:21:47

So to people want to tell stories

so that team can get incentivized or

446

: 00:21:51

they can just like prove contribution.

447

: 00:21:53

So if you can ignore that part

for a little bit and then take a

448

: 00:21:56

look at what actually is working.

449

: 00:21:59

I think you can optimize and you can

get better results so that you don't

450

: 00:22:02

need to tell those stories that often.,

451

: 00:22:04

Justin Norris: Like, yeah, it's great

to, . try to justify that you were

452

: 00:22:06

doing something or that it worked.

453

: 00:22:07

But ultimately what people want to

do is make decisions that actually

454

: 00:22:11

make the business more money.

455

: 00:22:13

I don't know if it's an, there's an

easy way to do it in the format of this

456

: 00:22:15

discussion, but is there a way to just

make that like a bit more crystallized

457

: 00:22:18

or more concrete for listeners on like

what that would actually look like?

458

: 00:22:22

Like

459

: 00:22:22

what's like an example of looking at

this data and then something that you

460

: 00:22:25

can actually do differently to drive

more revenue, more impact, whatever

461

: 00:22:28

it is that marketer's trying to do.

462

: 00:22:29

Emir Atli: so you can see how much you're

spending on different channels and what

463

: 00:22:33

percentage of your budget goes to these

channels versus How many deals or like the

464

: 00:22:37

total number of total deal value that's

being influenced by these channels, you

465

: 00:22:42

can look at, for example, brand keywords

and their incremental revenue influence.

466

: 00:22:47

So we compare in cohorts, if people click

on those links and then create deals

467

: 00:22:51

or if they don't click on those links

and I still create deals so that you

468

: 00:22:54

can see incrementality ports that way.

469

: 00:22:57

On the organic acquisition site.

470

: 00:22:59

We are looking at pages, individual

pages, time spent on those pages

471

: 00:23:03

and how they bring in revenue.

472

: 00:23:04

And the number one thing that we

are using is, have a funnel that's

473

: 00:23:08

showing us baseline conversion rate.

474

: 00:23:10

So if people go from the website landing

page to, pricing paste and contact

475

: 00:23:15

sales page, what's the Conversion

rate , of that funnel baseline.

476

: 00:23:19

And if we look at the people

enter the live demo, what's the

477

: 00:23:22

baseline conversion rate influence?

478

: 00:23:23

If they enter the flow, if they engage

with a couple of series, if they spend

479

: 00:23:27

more than a minute on the flow, what's

the baseline conversion rate influence.

480

: 00:23:31

make decisions that way.

481

: 00:23:32

And something that we noticed is Pricing

page on contact sales page on most

482

: 00:23:37

SaaS companies, sizing are included.

483

: 00:23:39

They're pretty, pretty much very similar.

484

: 00:23:42

Contact sales page.

485

: 00:23:43

Also have pricing.

486

: 00:23:44

There's a form pricing page

that's pricing, but you can

487

: 00:23:48

also click on a button and then

directed to contact sales page.

488

: 00:23:52

We found out that our pricing

page isn't really converting.

489

: 00:23:56

There is like a five x difference

between our contact sales page

490

: 00:23:59

and pricing page, but I would

assume that pricing page is also.

491

: 00:24:03

A high intent page, right?

492

: 00:24:04

So most people retarget

pricing page views.

493

: 00:24:06

So when I thought about it, most

people probably see the pricing

494

: 00:24:10

page as another type of content.

495

: 00:24:12

they're just interested.

496

: 00:24:13

So we are redesigning our pricing page

to give more value rather than just like

497

: 00:24:18

saying, these are our prices, this is

the baseline prices, the end price plan.

498

: 00:24:22

so this kind of Different reporting.

499

: 00:24:24

I'm talking about our own like analytics.

500

: 00:24:26

but to summarize, most of our customers

use one dashboard for paid acquisition,

501

: 00:24:30

one dashboard for organic acquisition,

one dashboard for marketing overview,

502

: 00:24:34

and they're doing a BM, there's like

a sales versus marketing penetration

503

: 00:24:38

rate based on accounts, how different

accounts are engaging with the brand.

504

: 00:24:42

those are the main reports

that I see from our customers.

505

: 00:24:45

And also channel based reports,

like how much we're spending

506

: 00:24:47

on Google versus LinkedIn.

507

: 00:24:49

that's standard sales

cycle from this platform.

508

: 00:24:51

Justin Norris: And you mentioned

incrementality a few times.

509

: 00:24:53

Could you define that?

510

: 00:24:54

Like what does that mean in this context?

511

: 00:24:56

Emir Atli: Yeah, incrementality is, so

attribution models gives you a direction.

512

: 00:25:00

So you can see if you close a million

dollar deal and there are like a

513

: 00:25:03

hundred different touch points, it

divides million dollars by a hundred

514

: 00:25:06

and then gives you, these are the credit

that these touch points should get.

515

: 00:25:10

Incremental testing is more,

showing this in cohorts.

516

: 00:25:13

So analyzes the entire customer

journey for a goal like deal

517

: 00:25:17

created and it shows you, for the

cohort that didn't do deal created.

518

: 00:25:21

These are the touchpoint, the

core that did deal created.

519

: 00:25:25

These are the touch points.

520

: 00:25:26

And if a user does this touch point,

this is the conversion rate influence.

521

: 00:25:31

So if a user enters the flow, the

conversion rate influence, they're

522

: 00:25:35

like 10 times more likely to convert.

523

: 00:25:37

Justin Norris: I am glad you

explained that to me 'cause that was

524

: 00:25:39

something that I was trying to build.

525

: 00:25:40

I didn't have the word in my vocabulary

and but that, that makes a lot more sense.

526

: 00:25:44

It feels more, scientific than

just, you know, taking the pie,

527

: 00:25:48

dividing it up and saying like, well

here's the things that happened.

528

: 00:25:51

And it was there, you know,

because it was sunny that day, then

529

: 00:25:54

we're gonna give sunniness some

credit to take a silly example.

530

: 00:25:58

Uh,

531

: 00:25:58

actually comparing with and without,

it feels more scientific that way.

532

: 00:26:02

Emir Atli: yeah, exactly.

533

: 00:26:03

And you can also take approaches.

534

: 00:26:05

So for example, instead of just

looking at SDR emails sent, you can

535

: 00:26:10

look at SDR emails being replied to.

536

: 00:26:13

And how they influence revenue so that

even if teams get credit, they can get

537

: 00:26:17

credit for more meaningful activities.

538

: 00:26:18

Justin Norris: And those replies, are

you pulling those in through Salesforce?

539

: 00:26:21

Do you integrate with some of the

outreach tools like SalesLoft or Outreach?

540

: 00:26:25

Emir Atli: We get it from

541

: 00:26:26

Justin Norris: Got it from Salesforce.

542

: 00:26:27

Okay.

543

: 00:26:28

Super interesting.

544

: 00:26:29

we've alluded a few times to Bizible,

they're kind of the legacy player.

545

: 00:26:32

There is another sort of group, I

guess, of more modern tools out there.

546

: 00:26:37

You know, there's your dream data,

your caliber mind, your rent metrics.

547

: 00:26:39

I'm throwing out a few.

548

: 00:26:40

I'm assuming you compete

with all of them in deals.

549

: 00:26:43

How do you, I have never actually

been a customer of any of of those,

550

: 00:26:47

by the way, besides, besides biz.

551

: 00:26:48

So I'm familiar with them in a general

sense, but not necessarily, uh, deepen.

552

: 00:26:52

As a user, how do you position

yourself against those other players

553

: 00:26:56

are a bit more modern than biz?

554

: 00:26:58

is it really just Bizible, you

know, nine times outta 10 that

555

: 00:27:00

you're running off against?

556

: 00:27:01

Emir Atli: CaliberMind, we

don't really run into it.

557

: 00:27:03

Data, we run into dream data.

558

: 00:27:05

Data is an amazing company,

amazing founders, good

559

: 00:27:07

sales team based in Denmark.

560

: 00:27:09

data is cheapest solution in our category.

561

: 00:27:12

usually it's x cheaper.

562

: 00:27:14

Than HockeyStack.

563

: 00:27:15

it's based on templates.

564

: 00:27:17

It's more you have a customer that

switched from Dream data recently,

565

: 00:27:20

I'm using their ver it's most,

it's more like a data connector

566

: 00:27:24

a true like reporting platform.

567

: 00:27:25

So you have templates.

568

: 00:27:27

You have clean data, but then you

can't define your own properties.

569

: 00:27:30

You can't change things on the reports.

570

: 00:27:32

You need a BI tool to export all the

data into a BI platform and then a BI

571

: 00:27:37

team to change it while HockeyStack.

572

: 00:27:39

We are kind approaches the full circle

cleaning to measuring, to sending

573

: 00:27:44

the data back to the platforms like

ad platforms as offline conversions.

574

: 00:27:48

From to forecasting to

budget recommendations.

575

: 00:27:51

we are a core infrastructure for the

marketing team and operations team.

576

: 00:27:55

Justin Norris: I was watching one of your,

uh, can You Dashboard videos, which is

577

: 00:27:58

a really cool content series by the way.

578

: 00:28:00

But it did appear to me like a very

flexible, almost bi like interface.

579

: 00:28:06

I.

580

: 00:28:06

That you've created.

581

: 00:28:07

are there any limitations or can

people really just, you know, metrics,

582

: 00:28:10

dimensions, filters, mishmash,

whatever they want that's in the

583

: 00:28:13

data store, in that interface.

584

: 00:28:15

Emir Atli: there's really no limitations.

585

: 00:28:16

The only limitation would be

like changing something on

586

: 00:28:19

Salesforce, through HockeyStack.

587

: 00:28:21

So changing a report, overriding

a report, overriding a metric,

588

: 00:28:24

but you can build your own metrics

using combination of Salesforce

589

: 00:28:28

marketer and website on HockeyStack,

so you can build your own goals.

590

: 00:28:31

There's no limitation.

591

: 00:28:33

As I said, the only limitation

would be overriding.

592

: 00:28:36

Data from coming from the platforms.

593

: 00:28:38

Justin Norris: And you mentioned

bringing in snowflake data, like do

594

: 00:28:40

I need looker if I have HockeyStack,

like could I actually put you on

595

: 00:28:43

top of finance data or other sorts

of data and and blend, ad hoc ways?

596

: 00:28:48

Emir Atli: So for all marketing and and

sales reporting, you can use HockeyStack,

597

: 00:28:52

but looker companies use it for hr.

598

: 00:28:55

For like more, I know

for other departments.

599

: 00:28:58

So we don't really get into that, but

we send data back to Snowflake, send

600

: 00:29:02

data back to BI tools and get data

from Snowflake for financial, data.

601

: 00:29:06

Justin Norris: Okay.

602

: 00:29:07

in other words, I guess what I'm,

driving at, let's say restricting it to

603

: 00:29:09

the marketing and sales use case, can

I pull in any ad hoc snowflake tables

604

: 00:29:13

that I want, or there's like specific

tables that you're tuned up to accept

605

: 00:29:17

Emir Atli: In a

606

: 00:29:17

Justin Norris: any table.

607

: 00:29:18

You're also one of the first, I

think the first, the first vendor.

608

: 00:29:21

And as far as I know, the only

vendor that I've seen, incorporated

609

: 00:29:25

self-reported attribution.

610

: 00:29:26

And this was another kind of big,

I mean, self-reported attribution

611

: 00:29:30

is not necessarily anything new.

612

: 00:29:31

we were doing it at a company I was

at, you know, 10 plus years ago,

613

: 00:29:34

but Chris Walker, I think, really

made it very popular and attractive

614

: 00:29:40

for people as an alternative to

615

: 00:29:43

only using digitally tracked

attribution and as a way to access

616

: 00:29:46

all the things that are unknowable,

you know, the dark social, the

617

: 00:29:49

communities, the podcasts in some cases.

618

: 00:29:52

So talk to me about the

self-reported attribution aspect.

619

: 00:29:54

How does that get brought in

and how do you connect that

620

: 00:29:57

to the digitally tracked data?

621

: 00:29:59

Emir Atli: Yeah.

622

: 00:29:59

Before I answer this, I wanna take a few

steps back because this is a question that

623

: 00:30:03

we get often, companies, sometimes we,

we are getting less and less because I

624

: 00:30:06

think we are doing a good job at educating

the market, but sometimes, especially

625

: 00:30:10

a couple months ago, we were getting

a lot more, stuff like this is pretty

626

: 00:30:13

cool, but What, what about dark social?

627

: 00:30:15

And the company is a true enterprise

company with no dark social touchpoints.

628

: 00:30:19

No LinkedIn, no podcasts, nothing.

629

: 00:30:22

But they still ask about that because,

I believe because your front labs, and

630

: 00:30:26

they did a good job at this, but like

these touchpoints is like the dark

631

: 00:30:30

social touchpoints as we call them.

632

: 00:30:32

You can still check most of it and we can

talk more about it, but the problem is

633

: 00:30:36

the way people think is they're comparing

dark social with the web activity that

634

: 00:30:41

we are collecting and with the web

activity we can see who did it when they

635

: 00:30:45

it, and how that influenced revenue.

636

: 00:30:48

The key part, key

differentiator is when they it.

637

: 00:30:51

So you cannot know they listen

to a podcast, I guarantee you if

638

: 00:30:55

they came from a podcast, they

would tell you on that sales call.

639

: 00:30:58

If you can get it from Gong, I

guarantee you, if they attend an event.

640

: 00:31:02

That you cannot track with Salesforce.

641

: 00:31:04

You probably can track if, if

it's an offline event or whatever,

642

: 00:31:07

but for some reason you didn't.

643

: 00:31:08

You didn't collect that.

644

: 00:31:10

I'm guarantee you that they will

mention that event on a sales call

645

: 00:31:14

or in your software attribution form,

and we will be able to collect it.

646

: 00:31:16

The only thing that we can do

is mandated that podcast listen.

647

: 00:31:20

And it doesn't really matter when they

listen to a podcast because in the end,

648

: 00:31:24

if they listen to a podcast matters.

649

: 00:31:26

So I think Dark social narrative is

incredible for the marketing community,

650

: 00:31:31

but for a measurement site, it cannot

be an excuse to not measure your

651

: 00:31:35

marketing, like it's dangerous for you

as a marketer because in the end, if

652

: 00:31:39

you cannot prove your contribution to

revenue, it's your job on the line.

653

: 00:31:43

You cannot just say, we

are doing dark social.

654

: 00:31:45

So it's measurements.

655

: 00:31:46

We can't measure anything.

656

: 00:31:47

It's not gonna work with your

board, with your CMO, with your CFO.

657

: 00:31:51

So dark social is incredible for

driving demand, but I think we

658

: 00:31:54

should still, about measurement.

659

: 00:31:56

I'm not just saying this because we

are a vendor in this space, because

660

: 00:31:59

I'm genuinely caring about marketing.

661

: 00:32:01

In marketers, because I'm a marketer at

heart, I've built all of our strategy

662

: 00:32:05

myself and then with and Drew, for

dark social, we are getting software

663

: 00:32:09

attribution form submissions and

categorizing them from the forms with

664

: 00:32:13

our script on the website and with Gong,

we can do, if you're tracking certain,

665

: 00:32:18

mentions, we are getting those from Gong.

666

: 00:32:20

And adding them to the journey and

then adding them to the reports.

667

: 00:32:23

For example, someone mentions recently

sponsored Exit five committee.

668

: 00:32:27

we got a couple deals that day and if

they mention Exit five on a gong, owners

669

: 00:32:32

like Sales Call Gong send to Cusack.

670

: 00:32:34

And then on Cusack you can see this

companies, their software attribution

671

: 00:32:39

form or they mentioned Exit five and

these are all the other touch points.

672

: 00:32:43

Justin Norris: Do you bring them together?

673

: 00:32:45

Like one of the things we've tried to do

internally with our own kinda homegrown

674

: 00:32:49

solutions is take the self-reported that

we're collecting and then compare it to

675

: 00:32:54

the digitally tracked for the same users.

676

: 00:32:56

So we can kind of see like, all right,

they looks like they're coming from

677

: 00:32:58

Google, but actually they're saying

LinkedIn or podcasts or whatever.

678

: 00:33:01

It's, they're saying, are you

able to mash it up in that way?

679

: 00:33:04

Emir Atli: Yeah.

680

: 00:33:04

Because we get the user's email from Gong

and then we have the previous activity.

681

: 00:33:09

Um, we can match them

together with email and with

682

: 00:33:12

Justin Norris: let me ask you this, and

this is maybe coming out of left field,

683

: 00:33:14

but you seem to be innovating from a

product perspective at a very rapid rate.

684

: 00:33:19

This is a common thing

for smaller companies.

685

: 00:33:23

I You gong integration.

686

: 00:33:24

I don't thinkBiziblewill ever.

687

: 00:33:25

Be able to deliver that.

688

: 00:33:26

if they did, it would be like

a five-year project problem.

689

: 00:33:29

So I don't mean to, to hit

on, on theBiziblething.

690

: 00:33:31

It was a great company, but just a fact

of existing inside this huge gorilla of

691

: 00:33:37

Adobe, even though they have probably

500 times the resources that you do, are

692

: 00:33:42

the, what are the dynamics that enable

you to deliver those, features quickly

693

: 00:33:45

and why, why can those big companies

not compete if you have a perspective?

694

: 00:33:49

Emir Atli: I think it's the

695

: 00:33:49

DNA,

696

: 00:33:50

DNA of the company.

697

: 00:33:51

the very beginning, we are engineering

heavy r and d focused is our key focus.

698

: 00:33:58

More than marketing, more than sales.

699

: 00:34:00

We are spending more time and

more money on our product.

700

: 00:34:02

We are spending the most amount of money

on our engineers and engineering team

701

: 00:34:06

and r and d and testing, experimenting.

702

: 00:34:08

And I think it's because

of our funding team.

703

: 00:34:10

Me and my co-founders are focused on

engineering and our Investors too.

704

: 00:34:15

we're y Combinator backed company.

705

: 00:34:17

we have ycs, DNA and YC has been the

first semester of Airbnb, Stripe.

706

: 00:34:22

There's like engineering heavy, innovative

companies, Twitch, DoorDash, Instacart,

707

: 00:34:27

all of these companies have been funded by

Y Combinator and it's a pretty hands-on.

708

: 00:34:32

Experience for three months

that we recently went through.

709

: 00:34:34

so I think that has an effect too.

710

: 00:34:36

but I think, I believe that even if you

have the best marketing and best sales

711

: 00:34:40

teams, the product doesn't deliver,

you'll be successful, but you'll end

712

: 00:34:43

up with ma massive amount of churn.

713

: 00:34:46

So that's kind of the biggest

reason that we innovate as much.

714

: 00:34:49

Justin Norris: I've seen that happen.

715

: 00:34:50

And so challenge is like Bizible was

an innovative company in the beginning,

716

: 00:34:54

and I worked with them and it was Aaron

and Dave and all those, people, they,

717

: 00:34:57

Were successful and as a result of

being successful, they were acquired.

718

: 00:35:01

And now the product formerly known

as Bizible it's not Bizible anymore,

719

: 00:35:04

Marketo measure, whatever they

call it, stays mostly the same.

720

: 00:35:08

Do you fear that that will happen to you?

721

: 00:35:10

Or like, do you have a plan to prevent

that or do you think, like, you know, if

722

: 00:35:14

that happens after an exit, like you've

done your work, you can't control that.

723

: 00:35:17

How do you think about that as a founder?

724

: 00:35:20

Emir Atli: Uh, as long as we are not

fired, I think would be a problem as

725

: 00:35:24

long as our board doesn't fire us.

726

: 00:35:26

I'm not really scared of that because I

think that's always gonna stay in our DNA.

727

: 00:35:30

The only thing that can slow us down,

might be like fine tuning those features.

728

: 00:35:35

we have some big features like marketing

modeling, lift reports, incrementality

729

: 00:35:39

reports is dashboard builder.

730

: 00:35:42

While we are fine tuning them

while we are working on them,

731

: 00:35:44

we might be slower than usual.

732

: 00:35:46

but it's gonna be our focus all the time,

733

: 00:35:49

Justin Norris: we talked a bit about

incrementality, but then there's

734

: 00:35:51

also marketing mix modeling, which

is a concept I've been learning about

735

: 00:35:56

maybe just over the past few months.

736

: 00:35:57

I think it's more common in B2C.

737

: 00:35:59

It's pretty foreign for B2B

at least until recently.

738

: 00:36:03

So maybe introduce listeners to

this topic and how you're planning

739

: 00:36:07

to integrate it and how it'll sit

alongside your existing feature set.

740

: 00:36:10

Emir Atli: Yeah, as you said,

marketing smiling has been used

741

: 00:36:13

in B2C for a very long time.

742

: 00:36:15

It's not being very popular in

743

: 00:36:17

B2B.

744

: 00:36:18

So marketing mix modelling doesn't depend

on web activity, depends on platform

745

: 00:36:22

activity and different metrics like

spend impressions and other key metrics

746

: 00:36:26

that we pull from different platforms.

747

: 00:36:28

allows you to See historic data and

create correlations between the platform

748

: 00:36:33

data and your spending, like offline

channels, like billboards events,

749

: 00:36:37

and add platforms and then create

correlations between those key metrics

750

: 00:36:41

to revenue and then model data that way

instead of relying on website activity.

751

: 00:36:45

being used by B2C because

B two Cs have more data.

752

: 00:36:49

for marketing, smiling to work,

you need a lot of data points so

753

: 00:36:53

that you can create correlations.

754

: 00:36:55

we're, choosing that to our

enterprise segment to start with,

755

: 00:36:58

and we are experimenting with a

couple of mid-market companies.

756

: 00:37:01

I think we'll be able to make

it work for mid-market too.

757

: 00:37:04

gonna support other features.

758

: 00:37:06

In a sense that it's gonna look at the

more broader historic data and we'll be

759

: 00:37:10

able to incorporate more offline data.

760

: 00:37:12

Justin Norris: So to make a real

example of this, we'll take, we'll

761

: 00:37:16

take a silly example and then maybe

a real B2B example, but silly example

762

: 00:37:19

might be, trying to sell breakfast

cereal, you're selling Cheerios, and you

763

: 00:37:24

put, go out with a big TV buy

and you're showing commercials.

764

: 00:37:28

And so you, you plot that.

765

: 00:37:30

Tell me if I'm understanding

this correctly.

766

: 00:37:31

You plot that chart of here's how much I'm

spending on commercials in these markets.

767

: 00:37:36

And then you look at sales in those

markets and see if there's like a trend

768

: 00:37:39

line that correlates, that moves together.

769

: 00:37:41

Is that how it works?

770

: 00:37:42

Emir Atli: Yeah.

771

: 00:37:42

So, imagine and attribution report.

772

: 00:37:44

You'll look at website visits.

773

: 00:37:46

You'll look at where they clicked

on what they did on the website,

774

: 00:37:50

and did they turn into revenue.

775

: 00:37:52

With marketing modeling, you'll

look at, this is how much we spent,

776

: 00:37:55

this is how many clicks did we get?

777

: 00:37:56

The C-T-R-C-P-C impressions, and

then you basically choose three

778

: 00:38:01

or four different metrics and your

main goal can be contact sales.

779

: 00:38:05

And it says basically last

quarter we saw an increase in

780

: 00:38:09

impressions in this platform.

781

: 00:38:10

So an increase in spend, so an increase

in engagement, and this resulted in

782

: 00:38:15

this, change in revenue and change in

core metrics in the same time period.

783

: 00:38:18

it's more correlations.

784

: 00:38:20

Between the data.

785

: 00:38:21

so this works in massive amounts of

data, massive amounts of spent because,

786

: 00:38:25

for example, B two Cs, as you also know,

they're not really into optimizing.

787

: 00:38:29

They're spending more so, like a

Shopify store would more to get

788

: 00:38:33

more leads because it's cheap.

789

: 00:38:35

optimize most of the time.

790

: 00:38:36

So if they spend like a hundred

million dollars in a year.

791

: 00:38:39

They can just do like an attribution

report with linear model and then divide

792

: 00:38:44

create into all of the touch points.

793

: 00:38:45

They're more looking into correlations.

794

: 00:38:48

Justin Norris: And so let's take a common

B2B tactic, retargeting or display ads,

795

: 00:38:53

something that, I might receive, you

know, a dozen impressions from those ads.

796

: 00:38:58

I might not click on them, but

could be having an impact on me.

797

: 00:39:01

And then this is very difficult to

measure because if I show up organic

798

: 00:39:04

search on your website and buy something.

799

: 00:39:06

And you say, did those

display ads do anything?

800

: 00:39:08

We don't know.

801

: 00:39:09

They were just impressions

in the mind of the user.

802

: 00:39:11

This would be a way of getting at that

problem because we can say, well, look,

803

: 00:39:14

we're seeing more people come in and it

seems to be correlated with this spend.

804

: 00:39:19

Emir Atli: exactly, because it

looks at the same time periods.

805

: 00:39:22

And also, I mean, we're

still experimenting with it.

806

: 00:39:24

It's still new, but I think We are

gonna see success more in engagement

807

: 00:39:27

metrics, in platform engagement,

in platform content consumption,

808

: 00:39:31

and how that, relates to revenue.

809

: 00:39:33

most of these platforms like LinkedIn

content consumption is huge because

810

: 00:39:36

people don't log into LinkedIn to

book a demo, but they consume content.

811

: 00:39:41

And I think marketing smiling is gonna

give marketers a new way to measure that's

812

: 00:39:44

influence and an exciting project that we

are running as Tying social activity back

813

: 00:39:49

to revenue with marketing, smiling, which

is something that I'm super excited about.

814

: 00:39:52

' cause we can actually tie, like

follower engagement, follower increase,

815

: 00:39:56

company page increase, and individual

team members, follower increase and

816

: 00:40:00

engagement increase to back to revenue.

817

: 00:40:02

Justin Norris: That's very cool.

818

: 00:40:03

Yeah.

819

: 00:40:04

What one of your competitors did

something similar, but it was, it

820

: 00:40:06

was only for company profile pages.

821

: 00:40:09

And, you know, the vast majority

of engagement happens with like,

822

: 00:40:12

I don't follow your company page,

but I follow you, you know, bad.

823

: 00:40:16

So if you figured out a way to,

824

: 00:40:17

uh, dream data, they release

something where they can

825

: 00:40:20

They bring in the company page

interactions into their system,

826

: 00:40:23

Emir Atli: yeah.

827

: 00:40:23

You can get company page

actions with the LinkedIn's

828

: 00:40:26

Justin Norris: with the API.

829

: 00:40:27

Yeah, but, so there's no API for the

individual pages, so if you can solve

830

: 00:40:30

for that, that would be super cool.

831

: 00:40:32

Emir Atli: Yeah.

832

: 00:40:33

I think we still have time until,

More and more companies understand

833

: 00:40:37

this influence of social.

834

: 00:40:39

I saw bad news about Cisco educating

tens of s of people and Cisco's

835

: 00:40:45

team about linked to social.

836

: 00:40:46

As we see more and more companies

like this, towards engaging their team

837

: 00:40:50

members in LinkedIn, social, then we'll

be there to measure its influence.

838

: 00:40:53

Justin Norris: Hey, I am super

excited about what you guys are doing.

839

: 00:40:56

It's a lot of fun.

840

: 00:40:57

I hope you're having as much fun as

it looks like on the outside 'cause

841

: 00:40:59

it looks like you're having a blast,

uh, and building a cool company.

842

: 00:41:02

I

843

: 00:41:02

And a cool product.

844

: 00:41:03

I will continue to watch it closely

and I'm really appreciative of

845

: 00:41:07

you spending time with me today.