Creating Executive-Level Data Stories - Justin guests on "Revenue Marketing Report"

Camela Thompson: 00:00:02

Welcome to the Revenue Marketing Report powered by Calibre Mind.

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I'm your host, Kamala Thompson, and today

I am joined once again by Justin Norris.

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Justin, welcome to the show.

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Justin Norris: It's great to be back.

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Nice to chat with you, Kamala.

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Camela Thompson: Tell me a

little bit about where you are

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right now and what you're doing.

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I hear you have your own podcast.

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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So my, my day job, I work for

a company called 360 learning.

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Uh, I am the director

of marketing operations.

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So leading the marketing ops team

and my team also supports BDR ops.

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So effectively a rev ops or rev ops

ish role, which is a great company.

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Great place to be.

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I'm having a lot of fun there

in my, uh, copious spare time.

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I host a podcast called rev ops FM.

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Which I've been doing for about eight

or nine months started last fall.

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And yeah, that's, uh,

that's been a lot of fun.

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It's a lot of work, as you know, but,

uh, have been able to have a really,

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a lot of, a lot of really great chats

with people learning a lot and, uh, and

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getting some good feedback on that too.

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Camela Thompson: I always get really

excited when operations folks get a

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peek into how a different department

is functioning, because it's

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always, you always learn at least.

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One thing about how people think if

nothing else, um, before we get into

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our topic of the day, is anything

popping up where you're like,

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wow, that's why they ask for that.

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Justin Norris: I guess

there's, there's two things.

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I mean, with, uh, hosting a podcast,

like you really understand content

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operations and everything that goes into

it, like you have to record, and then

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you have to get it edited, and then you

have to put it up on the audio, and then

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up on the video, and then cut a clip,

and then do the show notes, and then

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do the promo post, like, you know, It's

on and on and on, and you just don't

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expect that when you, you get started.

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So to all the content people

out there that are fighting

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the good fight, I salute you.

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And then, I mean, I've learned so much.

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The other thing, and I don't know if this

is a pleasing or annoying to my listeners.

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I presume the ones that stick around

also enjoy this journey, but I have

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a very expansive view of RevOps.

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So it's kind of like anyone in any go

to market function in any way, because

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the Uh, and sometimes a little outside

that too, because my view is like in

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revenue operations, you're responsible

for the overall health and effectiveness

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of the go to market functions.

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And so you need to understand what

great looks like in every area.

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So, you know, I speak to sales leaders,

sales, individual contributors,

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marketing, CS, some product people.

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Um, and that's what keeps it

interesting for me, quite frankly.

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So I've got nothing, one thing,

but I have, uh, just learned a ton

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about all those different areas.

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Camela Thompson: Yeah, I think, well,

it sounds like I'm not the only person

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who's drawn to revenue operations

because the only constant is change.

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And then it's also this weird balance

of systems, process, and human behavior.

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And you have to get, And know and

care about all of those pieces, you

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can't just get totally sucked into a

systems point, but I'm really glad we

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talked about this because I think it's

going to influence our conversation a

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bit on what marketing metrics should

look like for an organization and

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knowing what the other departments and

particularly what your CEO and CFO care

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the most about, like what's the thing

they're driving the business toward.

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Really should inform how you're thinking

about board reporting reporting to

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the executive review and then QB ours

and then rolling down from there.

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So let's talk a little bit about.

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Um, those different audiences and how we

should think about the level of detail

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because this is something I've gotten

hung up on early in my career for sure.

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Justin Norris: That's a great question.

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And the timing is funny because my

boss, I reported to our VP of marketing.

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She's actually on

maternity leave right now.

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I've been sitting into our, uh, revenue

executive meetings in, in her place,

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kind of doing the marketing report out

to our CEO, our CRO, our CEO, like it's

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kind of all the revenue focused executive

meeting, let's say all the sales leaders.

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And you really see the sorts of

things that they Um, care about

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and are interested in versus like

internally and marketing what we

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care about and are interested in.

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So I've gone through enough iterations

now that, um, able to, to kind of have a

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tight story and a tight set of metrics,

but yeah, it's, it's super high level.

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It's super like what

actually impacts revenue.

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So really just focus on pipeline.

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Um, by each of our markets, if there's

issues, you know, nobody, if things are

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good, you know, you'll get a few, um, hats

on the back type of thing, uh, but it's

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really the issues that people care about.

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So just having a tight story around that

and having, I would say as few KPIs as

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realistically possible, um, that that is.

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Then what's worked well for me.

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Camela Thompson: Yeah.

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And it's interesting.

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I kind of had the same epiphany when

I walked into a boardroom and was

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like, okay, so now I understand why

I was getting all of the questions I

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was getting and I would have answered

them so differently had I know.

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Um, but I really like your point about

as few KPIs as possible at that level.

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And that they really care.

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I always say it's results first, then

it's why it happened and what you're

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going to do differently to do better.

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And that's all they care about.

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So,

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Justin Norris: no, that's, that's perfect.

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I wish I'd said that because that

is a, is the perfect summarization,

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I think of where you need to go.

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Camela Thompson: But let's talk about

a few of the KPIs that you would

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include, um, beyond pipeline at that.

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Yeah.

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Justin Norris: So honestly,

pipe is the main one.

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And then we also talk a lot about hand

raisers, because the way I think of it

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for the C suite, you need like some top of

funnel metric, uh, pipe, and then revenue.

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Marketing isn't necessarily the

one that talks about revenue.

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And then for each of those target

to pace, because that's very

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much like, where, where are we?

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Are we on track?

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If we're not on track, like you said,

what are we doing to get on track?

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Um, for us, the, the top of funnel metric

we really look at is hand raisers, which

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I think is probably the healthiest, um,

One that we have right now by hand raiser,

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I mean, you know, demo requests, contact

requests, someone that's come to us and

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saying, I'd like to talk to somebody

about potentially buying something.

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And that is, in my opinion, the most

meaningful one that we have right now.

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Um, more so than leads, which,

you know, could be anything.

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Um, some of them converted half a

percent, some of them converted 40

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percent more than MQLs, which can

be a really problematic concept.

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So it's the closest leading indicator.

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To actual value, but this is where I find

it can get squishy too, depending on like

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what sort of motion you're running and

what people are expecting to see, but

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really that's, that is what we focus on

hand raisers by by channel target to pace.

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And, uh, and that is the story

that the people want to hear.

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Camela Thompson: Yay.

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Because what I see too often,

and I've consulted with a lot of

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different companies, as you have

in the past, um, a lot of marketing

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leaders, at least in the past, maybe

we're getting better about this.

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Don't keep a really close I on what's

happening on the sales side of the

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house, meaning pipeline and bookings.

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So, um, the best skill I think any

analyst can have is really pattern

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matching and recognizing when you're

ahead or behind pace and recognizing that

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pipelines behind early in the quarter.

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So you can actually.

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Do something tangible

to impact that number.

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Have you seen this shift in focusing

more on pipeline change any behavior

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on the marketing team itself?

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Justin Norris: You know, I came into a

pretty rigorous org in the first place.

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There's a lot of management

consultant DNA, like McKinsey,

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like DNA in our company.

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Um, are this the CMO when I started

was, uh, was former head of operations.

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So.

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A lot of that rigor was, was built out

where we have our KPIs, we look at them.

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Um, and I think we've continued

to increase the discipline there.

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So the one nice thing I can see from,

you know, reporting out on these

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problems every week, like if X channel

is behind this week, they were going to

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respond to it on a week by week basis.

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Not everything is that responsive as like

SEM where you can turn a dial and dial

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it up and if organics behind, there's

not a time that you're going to do.

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By next week, but having that scrutiny,

having that focus and monitoring it

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week to week, I think, um, turns maybe

minor setbacks into victories and

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turns what could be major setbacks

into minor recoverable setbacks.

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So you really do yourself a lot of

favor by having that sort of scrutiny.

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And we have a great dashboard,

um, and Looker that are our data

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team built for us as well that.

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Uh, you know, we'll break down by every

market, and then it'll break down the

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plan by channel, what we're expecting

to get to, and then the key innovation.

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Is just being able to toggle it between

showing our achievement percentage to

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like the total periods achievement,

whether that's month or quarter

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to achievement percentage by pace.

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So it'll look at business days in the

month, deduct, you know, holidays,

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it pings an API and gets the holidays

and stuff like that for that region.

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And then we'll say that you

should be at 60 percent right now.

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You are at 60%.

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Therefore you're at a

hundred percent of your pace.

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And that's really useful because in

the past it was like, all right, we're

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behind you're doing all this back of the

envelope math to try to figure out like

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where are we behind and why and dig down

and it just surfaces those insights for

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you so that you can be more reactive.

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Camela Thompson: So perhaps instead

we compare to nameless companies we've

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both seen as a pretty stark contrast

to, um, maybe almost the norm we see

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versus what you're describing, which

is really advanced and, and impressive.

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Justin Norris: I mean, yeah,

there's, uh, there's a lot of

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unaccountability out there.

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I wonder if it's changing.

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Like I haven't been in

consulting since the.

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Economic reset.

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And I do wonder if companies are

applying more scrutiny now that their

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budgets are being cut now that they

can't just have a cack of anything that

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nobody cares, I think, at least the

voices that I'm hearing and listening

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to it feels like the narrative around

this is shifting and like it's cool

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to be fiscally responsible again.

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So I do.

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I do wonder.

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I don't know what you're you're

seeing out there in the market.

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Camela Thompson: Not really.

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Um, so I think more and more

people are realizing that they

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don't have what they need.

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Not everybody realizes what

that needs to look like.

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So I think this is a really useful

conversation and speaking to, if you

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have all the metrics you just described.

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What are the kind of research drills

you can do to figure out what exactly

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is off and needs to be adjusted?

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Um, maybe that's a better spot to start.

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If, um, we're in month one of the quarter,

middle of month one, and we notice we're

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behind on pipeline generation, What are

some of the diagnostics you recommend

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to figure out why that's happening

or what you can do to turn it around?

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Justin Norris: So I guess number

one, it comes back to your plan.

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We break down our, uh, pipe, uh, plan by

channel based on the first touch, which

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isn't perfect, but you, you sort of have

to pick a lane when it comes to that.

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Um, and so, you know, if you have a

hundred opportunities for the quarter of

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the month or whatever, just for the sake

of round numbers, it's a made up number.

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Okay.

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You know, you have so, so much for

SEM, so much for channel two, so

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much for channel three and so on.

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So number one, you know, the first

drill is like where, well, I guess

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the first drill would be by market.

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We have multiple markets, but each

of the markets have their own leads.

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So in my head, I'm already

down at the market level.

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Um, and then the next

drill would be by channel.

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So like which, which of

our channels is behind?

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Um, once you identify that, you

know, it's really working its

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way back through the funnel.

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So like if we're behind on SEM, how

many, all right, we're behind on SQLs,

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how many hand raisers have we gotten?

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Like is it conversion rate

from hand raiser to SQL?

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Or, uh, do we have a low

volume of hand raisers?

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And if it's a low volume, it's like, well,

how many people are visiting the site?

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Like, are they not converting

on the, on the web page?

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Then you go back to like, how

many clicks are we getting?

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And you can take that back in

that particular channel, all the

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way back to impression share.

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And is our bid strategy off?

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And is our, I mean, it goes down into all

sorts of arcane, uh, Um, pay per click

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lore that is, you know, not something I've

really looked at closely for 15 years now,

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but we have the people that, that do that.

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Um, and so within that channel, you

know, there's, that's probably the most,

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has the most highly observable channel

and the most controllable channel.

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And it's the easiest to work with

compare that to like, um, our organic

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searches down, you know, which is,

uh, a lot more of a, of a lagging.

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Um, lagging metric versus the, the inputs

that you put into it to achieve it.

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It can reflect many things.

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It can reflect brand strength.

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It can reflect your

activity on social media.

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It can reflect, uh, PR.

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It can reflect, you just had a big showing

at a conference, you hosted an event.

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It's a convenience for people that

can't be bothered to type your

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URL into the, into the browser.

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So that's a, that's a, that's

a harder one, but you have

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to kind of have a heuristic.

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And for most of our channels, we

have sort of a decision tree of

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like, if this is off, go here, then

go here, then go here, then go here.

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Um, not all of them can you correct

as much in real time, but at least we

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can try to get to the bottom of it.

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Camela Thompson: Yeah, and your point

about organic and search, it could be an

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algorithm change on Google's part, like

they de indexed a ton of pages back in

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February and we're still figuring out.

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Why that is and how to get it corrected.

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So there's a lot of things

out of marketing's control.

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I think what we're maybe not explicitly

stating is that in order to get to

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this place, you really have to nail

the basics and have your campaign data.

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Organized in a very specific way.

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Um, so I would love to talk to you and

get into the MQL versus hand raise.

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I think I know why you're doing that.

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Um, but let's get into it a little bit.

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Justin Norris: Yeah, we have a legacy MQL.

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Definition that, um, frankly is different

than, um, than anything I've seen before.

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Like the, the conventional like marketing

automation, uh, definition of an MQL.

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It's kind of like a combination of

you're the right person and it's the

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right time based on like a lead score.

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Sometimes a hand raise

would be like an auto MQL.

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And for us, the way that, that we've

used it, It's just, uh, we kind of

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assess you when you come into the system.

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We use Sixth Sense today, so we run

some, you know, Sixth Sense magic

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in the background and we say, okay,

great, you're at MQL, or you're not.

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So I guess it's almost entirely

firmographic and demographic in that way.

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Um, and I don't, I don't love it.

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I don't love the way that we do it today,

but it's baked into so many things,

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and I guess this is one of the things

that, that I've really learned from it.

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As an aside, going from consulting

to, um, to being in house when

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you're in consulting, it's very

easy to be up on your high horse

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and be like, this is the right way.

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And these are the best

practices and et cetera.

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Then you're actually responsible for the

change management and the rollout and

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the, like, what does it actually mean

in terms of work to change these things?

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You're like, you know what?

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That's fine.

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I'm okay with, you know, With that,

like that, you know, that patch on

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the roof, it's not leaking right now.

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I'm just going to leave that there for

now and I'm going to focus on something.

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And you just have to make

decisions in that way.

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Um, so in any event, that,

that is, that is what it means.

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And I'm not saying it's, it's meaningless,

but for us, one of the main things Um,

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when I started that, that we adopted was,

uh, really focusing in on hand raisers,

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splitting them out and understanding

that the level of intent there is, is

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really significantly different than like

somebody that downloads an ebook or, you

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know, by several orders of magnitude.

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And, um, and that that is the best

predictor of our, of our pipeline health.

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So that's why we focus on that.

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Camela Thompson: It's so interesting

because I've been an advocate of,

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um, not relying on lead scoring.

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For to determine what sales is following

up on for a long time, and it's kind of

290

: 00:16:53

sacrilege in the marketing operations

community, because we have this concept of

291

: 00:16:58

level of engagement and firmographic fit.

292

: 00:17:00

But my argument's always been what

we have in our marketing automation

293

: 00:17:05

platform should capture the universe

of marketing touches so far as

294

: 00:17:09

it's reasonable, you know, like

you get into website interactions.

295

: 00:17:14

To prolific, but once we start moving

that data over to the CRM side of the

296

: 00:17:19

house, assuming you have two different

tools or what we raise up to the sales

297

: 00:17:24

team, if you don't have two different

tools, it needs to change into the total

298

: 00:17:30

universe and getting credit for each touch

to what are we communicating to sales?

299

: 00:17:35

What do they need to know about the most?

300

: 00:17:37

And what's the most effective path for

them to convert an opportunity and to

301

: 00:17:41

me that has always been working closely

with the sales team and being able to

302

: 00:17:45

look at campaign hand raises by channel

and looking at conversion rates to

303

: 00:17:52

determine, is this really a hand raise

or should we be routing it to nurture?

304

: 00:17:58

Is there.

305

: 00:18:00

A different path you would take there,

or are you seeing that this is kind

306

: 00:18:05

of working for your organization?

307

: 00:18:07

Just curious, because I agree there

needs to be a fit component, but.

308

: 00:18:11

Justin Norris: Yeah, so I mean a bit

of, um, even more additional context

309

: 00:18:15

there in terms of like our structure

today, it's very BDR focused, so

310

: 00:18:21

we have a strong BDR org, and um,

I spend a lot of my time there.

311

: 00:18:25

I joke like for the first two years

here, I felt like I really spent

312

: 00:18:30

way more time with the BDRs than

I did with the marketing team.

313

: 00:18:33

Um, and just because

there's a lot of BDRs.

314

: 00:18:37

Stuff to put in place, a lot of

different things to, uh, to improve upon.

315

: 00:18:41

So they're responsible for

that, that qualification

316

: 00:18:44

layer before it gets to sales.

317

: 00:18:45

The sales team are really getting

opportunities that are, and there's,

318

: 00:18:48

there's pros and cons to that.

319

: 00:18:50

Um, one of the pros is you're really

preserving your sales team's time.

320

: 00:18:54

Um, one of the cons is that I

think it makes the sales team very

321

: 00:18:57

focused on, uh, on closing and

on like, uh, less, less hungry.

322

: 00:19:03

You can say to be doing some of

that cold outreach to be doing

323

: 00:19:06

some of that nurturing, maybe a bit

more, a bit more transactional, not

324

: 00:19:09

referring to anyone in particular at

artwork, just as a general thought.

325

: 00:19:14

Um, so the BDRs are responsible for

doing that, that qualification layer,

326

: 00:19:19

and we didn't have a lot of nurturing,

like we have newsletters, um, and

327

: 00:19:23

we're still sort of figuring that out.

328

: 00:19:25

Like we think we should be doing

more, um, nurturing, but like the.

329

: 00:19:31

The typical playbook of like, we'll

have a Tofu and a Bofu and a Mofu and

330

: 00:19:34

then we'll split it up by funnel and

we'll just be dripping people e books.

331

: 00:19:38

Um, I don't think it works, uh, anymore.

332

: 00:19:41

I don't think it's that engaging.

333

: 00:19:42

Uh, I get, I have companies

that have like, they've

334

: 00:19:45

probably sent me 50 e books now.

335

: 00:19:46

I haven't, I haven't read them.

336

: 00:19:48

Um, so we're, we're still figuring

that out and, and, and kind of evolving

337

: 00:19:52

that and refocusing our, our BDR time.

338

: 00:19:54

So increasingly trying to focus

them and prioritize their time.

339

: 00:19:58

And figure out where so that my latest

thinking on is honestly something

340

: 00:20:02

just think about right now in terms

of nurture is like not having to have

341

: 00:20:06

it be either or like a BDR can reach

out and we have that criteria and then

342

: 00:20:09

we'll do some marketing things and

we don't need to like coordinate it

343

: 00:20:13

so tightly and keep those swim lanes

so separate because they can they're

344

: 00:20:16

different and they can overlap and with

the email marketing our team is really

345

: 00:20:21

leaning into Kind of thought leadership.

346

: 00:20:23

And the way I think about it is it's

sort of like the sub stackification

347

: 00:20:26

of, of nurture where people will

even pay, like, think about people

348

: 00:20:30

pay to receive those emails because

they're from a trusted voice.

349

: 00:20:34

They really believe in that person's

expertise and what they have to say.

350

: 00:20:38

We're really fortunate to have an

evangelist like that on our team

351

: 00:20:41

who has a, an excellent reputation

within the community that we sell to.

352

: 00:20:45

So let's lead into that.

353

: 00:20:47

And, um, that's kind of the

path that we're going on now.

354

: 00:20:50

Camela Thompson: It's

so interesting because.

355

: 00:20:52

Um, as a content marketer, I might be

a little biased, but that's something

356

: 00:20:57

I've seen work over and over again.

357

: 00:20:59

And one of the things that makes

smaller company founders hesitant to

358

: 00:21:04

do that is What if they leave, and

then it's just fascinating to me but

359

: 00:21:10

we're getting a little bit off topic

my fault I tend to squirrel a lot.

360

: 00:21:14

Um, so, just want to be really clear

here that I think I'm going to speak

361

: 00:21:19

for myself and then I'll let you

chime in but I want to emphasize that.

362

: 00:21:24

The measurements that marketing teams

are looking at today aren't wrong.

363

: 00:21:28

And there are a lot of measurements

that the individual practitioners

364

: 00:21:33

need to know, like impressions, cost

per lead, all of that good stuff.

365

: 00:21:38

I think what I would really emphasize

here is that At the executive

366

: 00:21:44

level, you need to understand

what the business cares about.

367

: 00:21:47

And even though you know all

of those other things are super

368

: 00:21:51

critical, it's ultimately about are

we profitable and are we growing?

369

: 00:21:59

Is there anything you would add to

that to kind of clarify the different

370

: 00:22:03

audience, different functionality?

371

: 00:22:06

Justin Norris: No, I mean, yeah, like

it's, uh, It's it's a different story

372

: 00:22:12

for different levels, just like you said.

373

: 00:22:14

So the C suite, we've talked about it.

374

: 00:22:16

Um, for marketing leadership, you

know, when we meet, um, with myself

375

: 00:22:20

and our boss and the other marketing

directors, we go maybe one level deeper

376

: 00:22:23

and we're looking at some of the, uh,

more channel specific leading metrics.

377

: 00:22:28

Certainly, if we're troubleshooting

something, we're going way deeper.

378

: 00:22:30

Uh, if we're, we have alignment meetings

with ops and our BDR coaches and, um,

379

: 00:22:37

our demand gen leads in each market.

380

: 00:22:38

And there we look at a different set

of meetings, you know, around our

381

: 00:22:41

different set of KPIs, rather around

meetings and SLAs and that sort of thing.

382

: 00:22:46

Um, so in large part, it depends on

like what, Is relevant to you, um, to

383

: 00:22:52

help you, you know, run your part of the

business and for sales, it's more like,

384

: 00:22:57

you know, yeah, if I'm a CRO, I just

want to know, like, is the pipe coming?

385

: 00:23:00

Is the train on time there?

386

: 00:23:03

Am I going to be fine?

387

: 00:23:04

Uh, that's one level.

388

: 00:23:05

Uh, if you're meeting with your

BDR coaches, they're really

389

: 00:23:08

concerned about, like, am I going

to be getting enough lead flow?

390

: 00:23:10

Is that lead quality good?

391

: 00:23:12

And the demand gen is like, are you, you

know, Reaching out to them quickly enough.

392

: 00:23:16

Um, are you, you know, these

leads that I'm investing in?

393

: 00:23:18

Are you responding to them?

394

: 00:23:19

Are they sitting in kind

of spoiling on the vine?

395

: 00:23:22

Um, so it's very contextual in that way.

396

: 00:23:24

And then all the way down to

like, you know, like we alluded

397

: 00:23:27

to with those, those metrics about

impression share and stuff like that.

398

: 00:23:31

Um, and with operations people, they

tend to like to get really granular

399

: 00:23:35

and we really have a culture of

like challenging each other and

400

: 00:23:38

where ops is expected is one of the

things I really like is we're not.

401

: 00:23:40

Yeah.

402

: 00:23:41

In this more service oriented posture,

but really expected to come in and

403

: 00:23:44

be like, Hey, like we're down on SEM.

404

: 00:23:46

Like, why is that?

405

: 00:23:47

And like, go with them on that journey,

not from a, like, you know, naughty boys

406

: 00:23:53

and girls kind of, um, vibe, but more to

help them understand to be knowledgeable.

407

: 00:23:59

So that's, that's really great.

408

: 00:24:00

And I think as an individual protection

practitioner, With a channel, who

409

: 00:24:04

owns a channel, you're going to

want to go as deep as you need to.

410

: 00:24:07

But yeah, the heuristic for me is

like, what do you need to know to

411

: 00:24:11

drive your part of the business?

412

: 00:24:12

What's relevant?

413

: 00:24:13

Too much, uh, kind of data, data puking.

414

: 00:24:16

I forget the fellow Avinash Kaushik,

uh, analytics dude has been around

415

: 00:24:20

for a while as a somewhat gruesome

phrase, but it kind of works, right?

416

: 00:24:23

Like too much.

417

: 00:24:25

And it's like, I can't absorb that.

418

: 00:24:27

I'm an English major.

419

: 00:24:27

I like to joke.

420

: 00:24:28

I.

421

: 00:24:29

I actually don't readily

absorb numbers and, and stats,

422

: 00:24:33

like it takes effort for me.

423

: 00:24:35

So I, this is maybe also why I'm more

focused on story and like, what is the

424

: 00:24:40

story that these things are telling?

425

: 00:24:42

Camela Thompson: That's actually such a

good thing, I think, for an analyst to

426

: 00:24:47

kind of know about themselves because I'm.

427

: 00:24:51

Very data literate and pattern

matching is just second nature.

428

: 00:24:56

So I would put up these big charts

and expect everybody to see what I

429

: 00:25:00

saw at the beginning of my career.

430

: 00:25:02

And it was embarrassing.

431

: 00:25:03

I mean, I look back on it and I'm

like, Oh, it's all about the story.

432

: 00:25:05

I'm sorry.

433

: 00:25:08

Whoops.

434

: 00:25:10

Justin Norris: But yeah, I think, I

think for anyone that, that is, that

435

: 00:25:12

is, I mean, there are those people who

can look at a huge chart and just grow,

436

: 00:25:15

click, Oh, wait, that's, that's odd.

437

: 00:25:17

Like just zero, you know, and that is

a wonderful skill, one I wish I had.

438

: 00:25:20

Um, but ultimately for any audience,

it's really like, it's a narrative.

439

: 00:25:24

So back to marketing, right?

440

: 00:25:25

Um, yeah.

441

: 00:25:26

Whether focused internally or externally.

442

: 00:25:29

Camela Thompson: So I really, I think

it's so cool that you are getting

443

: 00:25:33

such exposure with the executive

team in these data reviews and seeing

444

: 00:25:37

firsthand what they care about for the

marketing operations people listening

445

: 00:25:42

that don't have that kind of access.

446

: 00:25:43

What would you really want them to take

away and start putting into practice?

447

: 00:25:49

Justin Norris: That's a great question.

448

: 00:25:52

I think historically, at least as I have

come up through it, my experience has

449

: 00:25:57

been that the marketing ops discipline has

been very, uh, tech and process oriented.

450

: 00:26:02

So it's often like people that like,

Ooh, I can run Marketo or I can run

451

: 00:26:06

part out or HubSpot or whatever.

452

: 00:26:07

And, um, so very business systems y.

453

: 00:26:10

Is the, is the flavor.

454

: 00:26:12

And often that can also mean like

less business acumen, potentially

455

: 00:26:16

even less interest in that sort of

like, like that's marketing's problem.

456

: 00:26:19

We're just going to figure out

how to do what they ask us to do.

457

: 00:26:22

And I understand being in that place.

458

: 00:26:23

And, um, and if that's what

you're interested in, that's fine.

459

: 00:26:25

Like be conscious of that

and choose that path.

460

: 00:26:28

But if you're more of a marketing

ops leader or someone who aspires

461

: 00:26:31

to be one, I think you have to be

plugged into the business side.

462

: 00:26:36

You have to know your metrics.

463

: 00:26:37

You should, if someone, you know.

464

: 00:26:39

Pop quizzed you like, how

are we doing right now?

465

: 00:26:42

You should be able to answer

those questions and take

466

: 00:26:44

that sort of accountability.

467

: 00:26:46

Um, I think you should view yourself and

aspire to be kind of the second in command

468

: 00:26:51

to your marketing leader, a thought

partner, um, someone who's there like

469

: 00:26:56

kind of backing them up, um, sort of the

chief of staff to the CMO role that we've

470

: 00:27:00

started to see more and more, which I

think is super interesting and to act that

471

: 00:27:04

way, even though that's not your title.

472

: 00:27:06

And, um, and then I think you'll.

473

: 00:27:09

Get involved in more of those discussions.

474

: 00:27:10

You will proactively add value.

475

: 00:27:12

You'll be perceived as, um, mature

and, and business oriented and

476

: 00:27:16

someone who's there for the business,

not just to like run systems.

477

: 00:27:20

And that is a, I think a huge

boost to your career and just

478

: 00:27:22

a change in your mindset too.

479

: 00:27:23

Cause even when it comes to your

tech projects and your, you know,

480

: 00:27:26

the things that you choose to

prioritize are going to be different.

481

: 00:27:28

If you have that awareness.

482

: 00:27:33

Camela Thompson: That

was perfectly stated.

483

: 00:27:34

That's amazing.

484

: 00:27:35

Um, and I think I'm so excited because

I'm watching major market trends.

485

: 00:27:41

I think marketing is becoming more

and more critical to the business

486

: 00:27:44

and the health and scale of the

business just because of how buyer

487

: 00:27:47

behavior has morphed over the years.

488

: 00:27:50

I think customer success

is also on the uptick.

489

: 00:27:52

We've seen that with the whole land

and expand mantra that all of us

490

: 00:27:57

have had beaten into our heads.

491

: 00:28:01

So we can't afford anymore to operate in a

silo and ignore what the other departments

492

: 00:28:07

need for everyone to work well together.

493

: 00:28:09

And just, that's perfect.

494

: 00:28:11

Justin Norris: It comes back to

marketing also being perceived as a,

495

: 00:28:15

as a kind of a mature and legitimate.

496

: 00:28:17

Business function as well.

497

: 00:28:18

Like there's a macrocosm of of that

where marketing needs to be really

498

: 00:28:22

aligned with sales to care about

it to work in lockstep with them.

499

: 00:28:26

Um, so those conversations

are super important too.

500

: 00:28:29

Camela Thompson: Yeah.

501

: 00:28:30

Yeah.

502

: 00:28:30

I don't think we can afford

to ignore data anymore.

503

: 00:28:33

And I don't think we can

define what a qualified lead

504

: 00:28:36

is in a silo anymore either.

505

: 00:28:38

Justin Norris: So we hit our lead target.

506

: 00:28:40

We're good.

507

: 00:28:40

Like,

508

: 00:28:42

Camela Thompson: We haven't

hit our pipeline number.

509

: 00:28:43

Doesn't matter.

510

: 00:28:46

Justin, thank you so much.

511

: 00:28:47

Is there anything else you'd

like to add before we talk

512

: 00:28:50

about where people can find you?

513

: 00:28:51

Justin Norris: We talked about

story and that's really important.

514

: 00:28:54

The other thing that I think is

we're thinking about our routines

515

: 00:28:58

and rituals, because I think when

you review the data is just as

516

: 00:29:01

important as what you're reviewing.

517

: 00:29:04

Having those regular meetings,

Those regular standing

518

: 00:29:06

cadences is really important.

519

: 00:29:09

It may seem like, oh, we can all

look at these reports asynchronously,

520

: 00:29:11

but you, you don't always do that.

521

: 00:29:13

So having that forcing function

where you know that you're gonna

522

: 00:29:16

have to stand up in front of your

peers or in front of executives

523

: 00:29:20

and sort of account for yourself.

524

: 00:29:22

Uh, it, it focuses your mind in a, in

a positive way in the sense that you're

525

: 00:29:27

going to apply scrutiny in areas where

you need, you're going to make sure, you

526

: 00:29:31

know, uh, you're going to check in, you

know, having this ritual kind of in my,

527

: 00:29:38

in my plate for a few months, uh, I'm much

closer with our DG team right now, like,

528

: 00:29:42

Hey, why are we, I noticed we're down in

this channel, in this market, like why,

529

: 00:29:45

Hey, Let me understand why, um, so I could

speak to that and, uh, and that's great.

530

: 00:29:50

You know, that's, that's really helpful

for me or like the routines I mentioned

531

: 00:29:53

with our BDR leaders or, you know, just

having, Having those rituals, uh, even,

532

: 00:29:58

even for yourself, like a block time in my

calendar each day to go and look through

533

: 00:30:02

a set of key reports to make sure I'm

there and focusing your mind on the KPIs

534

: 00:30:09

that matter for the business, I think is

the most important thing you can do to

535

: 00:30:14

drive more impact as a, as a professional,

because then everything else, um, that

536

: 00:30:20

you choose to do, that you prioritize

is going to be seen through that lens.

537

: 00:30:25

As opposed to like shiny object.

538

: 00:30:27

Ooh, this is interesting.

539

: 00:30:28

I'll buy this new tool, you

know, that's that sort of thing.

540

: 00:30:31

So yeah, if you implement one

ritual, I think that is, uh, is

541

: 00:30:34

something that's really important.

542

: 00:30:36

Camela Thompson: That's so spot on

because I always say, if you look at

543

: 00:30:39

your numbers quarterly, it's too late.

544

: 00:30:42

It is not a good story to the board

to get the pipeline and bookings

545

: 00:30:46

data at the end of the quarter and

say, whoops, we missed everything.

546

: 00:30:49

If you can say we saw we were

behind on pipeline and we responded

547

: 00:30:53

by doing these five things.

548

: 00:30:56

And you turned it around at least to a

degree, that is such a better story to

549

: 00:31:00

tell your executive team, they trust

that you understand the business more.

550

: 00:31:05

There's just, it's wise, it's very wise.

551

: 00:31:10

And then the other piece, I, agree

that it has to be a ritual that's

552

: 00:31:15

done in public, you know, by meeting

because recent research and I'll link

553

: 00:31:21

the research study in the show notes,

26 percent of marketers admit that

554

: 00:31:25

they ignore the write ups and insights

that their analyst team sends out.

555

: 00:31:30

And another 22 percent admitted to

ignoring their recommendations and going

556

: 00:31:35

by gut because that's what they prefer.

557

: 00:31:37

So I think we're still in a very heavy

558

: 00:31:42

Intuitive marketing state still,

or random acts of marketing, and

559

: 00:31:47

I don't think that's going to

be tolerated for much longer.

560

: 00:31:50

Justin Norris: I agree with you.

561

: 00:31:51

And actually, if we have time

for one other fun thing, and

562

: 00:31:53

tell me if we don't, but No,

563

: 00:31:55

Camela Thompson: absolutely.

564

: 00:31:57

Justin Norris: AI.

565

: 00:31:57

Uh, this is an interesting area, and

I know I almost feel cringy saying AI,

566

: 00:32:02

because it's like, AI, everything's

AI right now, but Um, I have thought

567

: 00:32:05

a lot about like, where can this

actually help and where can't it?

568

: 00:32:09

And I did earlier in the year, sort

of a big review of like, what are all

569

: 00:32:12

the possible use cases and where, and

like you said, pattern matching is

570

: 00:32:16

where I think AI can really, really

help because that's what it excels at.

571

: 00:32:21

It doesn't excel at truly understanding

human emotion or human psychology, even

572

: 00:32:26

though it can sort of approximate it at

times, but observing patterns and things.

573

: 00:32:31

It's perfect.

574

: 00:32:32

And so I only did a cursory review

at that time of tools that are

575

: 00:32:37

helping add sort of that analysis

layer that initial analysis later.

576

: 00:32:43

Like, hey, you may want to look at this.

577

: 00:32:44

This is up or this is down or or

doing some of that analytical work

578

: 00:32:48

for the human being a copilot.

579

: 00:32:51

I see that as a really valid and

promising, uh, use case for AI.

580

: 00:32:55

I don't even know what's

happened in the last six months.

581

: 00:32:57

I haven't checked again, but I think

that's an exciting possibility.

582

: 00:33:01

Camela Thompson: I am excited about that.

583

: 00:33:03

And I am also really excited about the

impacts and implications for qualitative.

584

: 00:33:09

Data that is unstructured

and normally we can analyze.

585

: 00:33:12

So for like, um, sales call recordings

and analyzing competitive keywords.

586

: 00:33:17

Oh my gosh, it's going

to be a game changer.

587

: 00:33:20

Justin Norris: That is the area that I've

been focused on the most because I think,

588

: 00:33:23

um, like, like you, I am, you know, really

obsessed with, with customer insights.

589

: 00:33:28

And I think the qualitative.

590

: 00:33:30

It's just as important

or if not, not more.

591

: 00:33:32

So my, uh, one of my bosses, our, our

COO, he's like, you know, the, the

592

: 00:33:35

quantitative tells you what happened,

but the qualitative tells you why.

593

: 00:33:38

And he probably listens to more calls

than anybody else in the organization.

594

: 00:33:42

And, um, and so being able to like mine

that data, like have it as a corpus of, of

595

: 00:33:48

information that AI can look through and

be like, what are the, what are the most

596

: 00:33:50

common pain points that are discussed?

597

: 00:33:52

You know, Gong doesn't

really let you do this yet.

598

: 00:33:54

Search across accounts, across

all calls of a certain type.

599

: 00:33:58

I'm sure they're going to get there.

600

: 00:33:59

But even, you know, I saw the other

day a BDR, just of her own initiative,

601

: 00:34:03

because it takes time, they have a

discovery call, then they have these

602

: 00:34:05

10 questions they need to answer.

603

: 00:34:07

She developed a prompt, and would just

feed the transcript into ChatGPT, and it

604

: 00:34:11

would spit the answers back out at her.

605

: 00:34:12

Camela Thompson: I love it!

606

: 00:34:13

Justin Norris: Wow, like, we've got to

roll this out, you know, to everybody

607

: 00:34:16

somehow, because Uh, and just seeing

it work, I was like, well, this is,

608

: 00:34:20

this is the way it's going to happen.

609

: 00:34:23

Camela Thompson: All about time savings

and you have to use human oversight still.

610

: 00:34:26

I mean, and I, I think we will for

a very long time, but if you're not

611

: 00:34:29

using it now to figure out productivity

gains, you're going to be so behind

612

: 00:34:32

everybody else in the Met market.

613

: 00:34:36

And I just love that

context truly is everything.

614

: 00:34:40

And I think marketing operators can learn

more from marketing by lifting their heads

615

: 00:34:43

up every once in a while and reading the

room and talking to the executive team.

616

: 00:34:48

And I think marketers can learn

from operators by taking some time

617

: 00:34:52

to look at the numbers and seeing

how that ties into the context.

618

: 00:34:56

I think there's A lot we

can gain from one another.

619

: 00:35:00

Justin Norris: A hundred percent.

620

: 00:35:01

Camela Thompson: Justin, thank

you so much for being on the show.

621

: 00:35:04

It's always a pleasure to geek

out with you over this stuff.

622

: 00:35:07

Justin Norris: Always enjoy it.

623

: 00:35:08

Camela Thompson: Thank you.

624

: 00:35:09

Where can people find

you online to network?

625

: 00:35:10

Yeah,

626

: 00:35:11

Justin Norris: yeah.

627

: 00:35:11

So, uh, you can find me on

LinkedIn, uh, just search my name.

628

: 00:35:14

I'll pop up.

629

: 00:35:15

And if you're interested, uh, in

the show, it's called RevOps FM.

630

: 00:35:19

Two words you can find it.

631

: 00:35:20

On, uh, wherever you get your podcasts,

Spotify, Apple podcasts, or go to revops.

632

: 00:35:26

fm forward slash subscribe.

633

: 00:35:28

And that'll take you to my sub stack and

then post all the episodes there as well.

634

: 00:35:32

Camela Thompson: Listeners.

635

: 00:35:32

Thank you so much for tuning in

to the revenue marketing report.

636

: 00:35:35

Please tell two friends, subscribe,

download, whatever you can helps.

637

: 00:35:40

And for those of you looking

for more great content like

638

: 00:35:43

this, check out calibermine.

639

: 00:35:43

com