Building Your Owned Audience for B2B Marketing - Anthony Kennada
You may have heard the phrase, "every company is a media company"—but what does this actually mean for B2B?
How do you go about building an audience, what content should you use, and how should you measure it?
Here to answer these questions is category-creating CMO and founder, Anthony Kennada. He helped pioneer the category of customer success as founding CMO at Gainsight, and today is helping B2B companies develop owned audiences as CEO of AudiencePlus.
Anthony is a great marketer who has thought deeply about how brands should develop relationships with audiences for the long term. This wide-ranging conversation explores many facets of how to put this into practice.
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About Today's Guest
Anthony Kennada is the co-founder and CEO of AudiencePlus—building software, content, and community to help every company become a media company.
Prior to founding AudiencePlus, he served as the CMO of companies like Hopin, Front, and Gainsight. At this last company, he and his team are credited with creating the Customer Success category.
Anthony is also the author of Category Creation: How to Build a Brand that Customers, Employees, and Investors Will Love, which debuted as a number one new release on Amazon.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/akennada/
Key Topics
- [00:00] - Introduction
- [01:43] - Evolving through growth stages at Gainsight
- [06:40] - Category creation
- [14:09] - Why should every company be a media company?
- [24:31] - Metrics for audience marketing
- [34:47] - Partnering with content creators
- [40:25] - Edutainment
- [44:29] - Golden Hour
Thanks to Our Sponsor
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Resource Links
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Transcript
justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
it's 10 years ago and you're a new
2
:CMO building your marketing strategy.
3
:What do you do?
4
:You're probably going to roll
out a lot of the tried and
5
:true content marketing tactics.
6
:I'm going to start a blog, write
eBooks, maybe post something kind
7
:of self promotional on LinkedIn.
8
:And if you're really adventurous and
edgy, maybe you're going to do a low
9
:budget podcast or something like that.
10
:If we fast forward to today,
we're in a really different place.
11
:The business content world is in this
kind of awkward transitional phase
12
:between more traditional and buttoned
up professional content on the one hand
13
:and on the other, this more consumer
oriented media style, one that's drawing
14
:on everything from The latest Tik TOK
formats to YouTube style comedy sketches
15
:to really slick looking reality TV type
docu series, and a whole bunch more,
16
:You may have heard this phrase that every
company is a media company and wondered.
17
:It's hard enough to make B2B software.
18
:Why do we have to be a media
company on top of that?
19
:And here to help us answer that question,
we have Anthony Cannata, CEO of audience
20
:plus a software platform for own media.
21
:He's also a multi time CMO and was
founding marketing leader at gain site
22
:where he helped Pioneer the customer
success software category and scale them
23
:to nearly 100 million ARR in the process.
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:Anthony, so good to have you on the show.
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:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
good to be here.
26
:Thanks for having me.
27
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
I want to dive into the B2B media
28
:topic, but first, maybe we can just
roll back the clock a little bit.
29
:Cause you've had a really
interesting experience at Gainsight.
30
:You were their first marketing hire.
31
:As I said, and typically, , companies will
cycle through a few different executives
32
:during different growth stages, and that's
kind of conventional wisdom that you need
33
:to do that, especially in marketing and
sales, and you really rode that train all
34
:the way to a pretty significant milestone.
35
:Maybe you can just tell us a bit
about that experience and kind of how
36
:you evolved through those different
growth stages as a marketing leader.
37
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
I mean, certainly on a personal level,
38
:that was the ghost that I was chasing
was I don't want to be hired over.
39
:I want to be the one to scale.
40
:And, there's something very
motivating about that, but I
41
:think it's absolutely true.
42
:I think the different phases of company
building, you require different
43
:things of your, marketing team.
44
:and in the first stage of, our business,
it was really 0 to 1, program building,
45
:what is our approach to marketing?
46
:Are we content led?
47
:Should we start a community?
48
:what's our strategic
narrative, out into the world.
49
:And it's not that these things go
away over time, but when you're in
50
:the sort of foundational stages, it's
sort of creating a point of view that
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:you're going to become known for.
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:And so a lot of that was, first time.
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:Program.
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:So we did an event called pulse.
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:and every year, the idea was how
can we do it better and bigger?
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:how do we take it into new markets?
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:how do we scale a conference
conference happens once a year?
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:what would you do for
the rest of the year?
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:So that turned into like virtual programs.
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:we talk about content, quite a bit.
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:and so that phase was so much fun.
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:and really, really enjoyed.
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:I'd say it's probably zero to
20 million or so of a lot of the
64
:net new ideas pretty quickly, a
couple of things start happening.
65
:one, that in my experience,
the game site was.
66
:one thing I regret almost was
we really started taking product
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:marketing much more seriously at
the, about honestly 20 million mark.
68
:My regret is not taking it seriously
earlier, but you start to become known
69
:for the, something, but the question is,
are you able to monetize your awareness?
70
:Are you able to better, convert
this brand into software?
71
:And so things got a bit more.
72
:Traditional from there.
73
:how do we strengthen our marketing funnel?
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:How do we think about these
channels more, efficiently?
75
:and I would say during the
tail end of my, time there.
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:So really, again, they call it
the 80 to a hundred kind of run.
77
:it became a lot more about.
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:Efficiency and managing
to the spreadsheet.
79
:It's less of like net new programs.
80
:It's more of like, how
do we do this faster?
81
:Better get more pipeline out of it and
not spend as much money to get there.
82
:and so that's probably the 3
chapter arc of my tenure there.
83
:And it's been awesome to watch what
they've done since because they brought
84
:in folks that really have seen the
100 million plus kind of journey, to.
85
:take it to that next level, but for me as
a marketer, I love the inception phase.
86
:I love the creativity.
87
:I love, new idea generation.
88
:And again, it's not to say that
doesn't happen later stage either,
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:but, I'm really enjoying now applying
that to what we're doing at audience.
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:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
Do you find that The appetite for new
91
:things that the, vibe of innovation,
that sort of challenger energy, is
92
:it hard to sustain that as you become
more established, you have more to
93
:lose appetite for risk goes down.
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:Typically.
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:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
Yeah, and I don't think that's a bad
96
:thing necessarily, but think that
there's a reason, there's folks that
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:are startup people and there's folks
that want to go work at a big company.
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:You work at a big company and if you
want to introduce a new idea, there's
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:probably a couple of committees you
have to go through and some internal
100
:politicking to, get that idea, approved.
101
:Whereas in the earlier stages, you
can, be a little bit more agile.
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:You can try and fail.
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:when you have, like, an investor relations
team, it's a lot harder to try and fail.
104
:It's a bit more of setting proper
expectations and hitting, our
105
:commitments to shareholders
and to the market at large.
106
:So, I think just by nature, it's not
like, uh, condemnation on the company,
107
:but just things change as you get bigger.
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:And from there.
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:There's this appetite towards
predictability and efficiency and scale.
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:that becomes more of the
charter than creativity.
111
:in my view.
112
:so not, doesn't.
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:Speak ill of later stage businesses,
because I think there's some people
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:that are really great at that and
love kind of the operational rigor
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:love, finding efficiencies and,
the industry needs folks that are
116
:very passionate about that as well.
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:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: I think
a lot of it is about finding where you
118
:excel, like where your comfort zone is.
119
:When I was in consulting, you know, got to
work with a lot of different companies, a
120
:lot of different stages, including some.
121
:Really great, fortune 500 brands,
but what you see with those companies
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:is that so much of the work is about
the process of doing the work as
123
:opposed to ideation and, movement.
124
:, and there's people that excel
at navigating that environment
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:and it's a real skill.
126
:I like an environment where I can
move a little bit more quickly.
127
:and one of the things that you did, in
moving quickly at Gainsight it's kind
128
:of build this category for this new
thing that didn't exist before customer
129
:success platform I had an interesting,
chat little while ago with Mark Oregon,
130
:who's the founding CEO of Eloqua,
kind of about his journey, founding
131
:the category of marketing automation.
132
:And one of the interesting things
he said was like, It's not actually
133
:always the easiest way to go to market.
134
:it's actually can be really hard and
some people are just wired this way.
135
:And I see you now with audience plus
kind of doing this new thing again.
136
:And it suggests to me, maybe
you are wired this way.
137
:do you feel that?
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:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: I do.
139
:I've learned from Mark so much over
the years on, on this very topic.
140
:I came into gain site.
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:That was my first marketing job.
142
:So I, a background in product and BD and a
little bit of sales, but never marketing.
143
:And so any skill building, any
craftsmanship or any 10, 000 hours
144
:gained was, you know, In a situation
where there wasn't an incumbent
145
:company, that was dominating that use
case or for that persona or whatever.
146
:And so I learned how to do marketing
in a world where only looking
147
:backwards, we can say we were creating
a category or we were building.
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:Equity in a problem.
149
:we were communicating a problem and
driving awareness around a problem
150
:in an effort to then introduce a
solution to solve that problem.
151
:and so a lot of the
messaging, a lot of the.
152
:content, a lot of the narratives
that we helped facilitate within
153
:the community weren't about our
software, the bits and bytes.
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:They were all about this
problem that our persona had.
155
:and so, yeah, I mean, I think in general.
156
:it's all I know from back, I'm a glutton
for punishment, because it's definitely
157
:not the most straightforward way to
build a marketing engine, to build
158
:a company, surely, but I think for
people that have created a category,
159
:Mark, hopefully would attest to this
too, one, sometimes it's the only way.
160
:there is no one doing what
audience plus is doing today.
161
:You can build it yourself.
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:Maybe if you cobble together four or five,
six different solutions, but no one is,
163
:is doing this and you have to convict
the market on why is this important?
164
:and that was the case
with gainsight as well.
165
:But the other thing I'll add too,
is that, if you are wired this way,
166
:It's actually quite fulfilling.
167
:it's a rather nice way to find meaning
in enterprise software, because
168
:there's this emotional part of it.
169
:There's this kind of
people centricity two way.
170
:There's a lot of empathy, and
creativity, as we talked about earlier.
171
:So I think that, even though it's
super hard and there are easier
172
:ways to make money, ultimately, it's
definitely a more fulfilling journey.
173
:I would argue for the folks that are,
wired that way are keen to take that on.
174
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: if we
take, those two experiences, you know,
175
:Gain Sight in the first instance and now
Audience Plus in the second, and we'll
176
:go much deeper into Audience Plus a bit
later, but I'm just curious, like at
177
:what stage in the Gain Sight journey did
you feel super confident that we have
178
:really found a meaningful problem that
people will, pay for and now we just have
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:to like put more fuel on the fire where
in that spectrum or that journey do you
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:feel that you are now with Audience Plus?
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:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: Yeah.
182
:it happened really early.
183
:because within our first three months
at Gainsight, we talked to analysts.
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:We, tried to like find the market
map to figure out how we're
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:going to position the business.
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:We did all of the things that like
you would do in a traditional context.
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:And none of it felt right.
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:none of it felt right.
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:Authentic to the problem that we were
solving or really seeing the white
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:space and where we can make an impact.
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:So Gartner was telling us to position
as a CRM, for example, we're like, gosh,
192
:like, there's no way we're going to take
on Salesforce, you know, or whatever.
193
:and so that didn't feel
right, but what we've.
194
:Observed was that there was this
community that met on LinkedIn,
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:honestly, and then met in random
office parks around the Bay area.
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:and they were all, self named
as customer success managers.
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:It's like, gosh, that's interesting.
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:What is this role?
199
:And what we.
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:Learned is first of all, there was
about a hundred of them on LinkedIn,
201
:probably 70 of them worked at Salesforce.
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:So I think they get the credit
for like naming the role for sure.
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:but they were accountable to the outcome
that our software would help provide.
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:However, they didn't have a
brand that was fighting for them.
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:They were somewhat marginalized
in the market around the
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:sort of leadership table.
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:sales had a, career path.
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:Marketing had a career path.
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:Support did even professional
services, but customer success
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:was this rather new cottage thing.
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:And there are more questions than answers.
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:And so when we went to one of these
meetups, what we felt, and this was
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:like, not a highly produced event.
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:But we felt this like tangible feeling in
the room of like, I'm, I'm finally around
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:other people who are like me or who are
going through what I'm going through.
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:And that was sort of the clue that led
to the hypothesis of like, okay, well,
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:what if we brought these people together?
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:And what if we, maybe did a little
better than the pizza and, soda or
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:whatever, like event and did an event
that was a bit more highly produced.
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:And it wasn't about us, but we just
radically focused on serving that
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:persona and advancing their interests
and fighting for them, championing them.
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:Would we benefit?
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:would they eventually
buy software from us?
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:So about, month three or four on the
job, we hosted a conference that had 300
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:people attend all about customer success.
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:Aaron Zuora, Jeffrey Moore, who
wrote crossing the chasm, you know,
227
:incredible kind of speaker list.
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:And what we saw there in the room was
that That feeling was validated amplified,
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:if anything, maybe some of the fog
machines and lighting might have helped
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:to help facilitate that a little bit.
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:that was the moment.
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:And so we just never looked back.
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:We just double down, triple
down on not just doing events
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:all the time, building a.
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:Digital presence on our website.
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:That was all about best practices
for customer success, doing original
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:research and sort of ROI work, taking
out billboards, just to use the words,
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:customer success, so people would
literally see it and help recognize that
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:it was a real thing, investing with like
Forrester and others on putting their
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:logo next to the words, customer success
and distributing that content ourselves.
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:So we did a lot of things to
basically build equity into
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:that, but it all stemmed from.
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:less than a million of ARR, community
of people who validated the thing that
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:we were professing into the world.
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:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: What
did they call it before that term existed?
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:I'm so now just like in my brain,
I'm like, that's just a thing.
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:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
I don't think anyone was
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:responsible for renewals or upsell.
249
:If anything, it was account managers who
typically rolled into the sales function.
250
:and so there was a world where
you could draw a connection from
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:the account management community
to us, but typically in the post
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:sales organization, it was support.
253
:Onboarding, maybe, professional services
if you hadn't had an offering there,
254
:but there was no relationship manager.
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:After the deal was closed, who was
accountable to, you know, product
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:adoption or CSAT or any of these
leading indicators to a renewal.
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:so it was sort of like right
time, right place, I think.
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:And by the way, on the mark, the marketing
lessons there, we got very lucky in that
259
:there was a role with a name that Was
a very like romantic idea who wouldn't
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:want to make your customers successful.
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:and so we had a lot of intangibles working
for us in that context where I appreciate
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:it's a little bit more complex for other
companies that want to follow suit.
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:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
Well, it's an amazing journey.
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:And maybe we'll then fast forward
from there to the problem that
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:you're trying to solve for today.
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:And we could perhaps start with
just a foundational question so that
267
:everyone listening is on the same page.
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:what does it mean from your
perspective for a B2B company
269
:to act as a media company?
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:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
probably two different vectors for it
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:because I think we've overemphasized.
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:The media side of the conversation at
the expense of the owned part of it.
273
:We talked about owned media, more broadly
and I think that the broad consensus is,
274
:when we think about how we as consumers
are engaging with content today.
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:We're either listening to a podcast,
just like this 1, we're following our
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:favorite creators who are live streaming
on these different kind of platforms.
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:we're watching short form video
clips on tick tock or in these,
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:different feeds and we have this.
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:New way of engaging with information.
280
:And then when we go to work, we're writing
SEO articles for search that are written.
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:It doesn't matter if anyone even reads
it, as long as we stuff enough keywords in
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:there that we can rank the page and drive
some traffic, to we're writing eBooks
283
:or white papers that are extremely long.
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:and what we're finding is
there's this dissonance between
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:what people are actually.
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:Consuming and the type of
content that we're actually
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:producing in the B2B context.
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:And again, the consumer world way ahead of
us, the creator economy way ahead of us.
289
:And it just takes us a little
while to follow suit in, B2B.
290
:And so I think what we're advocating
for, isn't a new thing on that
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:side, which is the idea that.
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:We should be producing content in
the formats and mediums that are
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:actually going to reach our audience.
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:but people have been saying that for a
while, like that's not extremely novel.
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:The idea that every company is going
to media company, I think is like a
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:eight to 10 year old kind of mantra that
has existed long before we came along.
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:The bias that we have is around.
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:Leveraging that content, leveraging that
media, that exchange of value to build a
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:direct relationship with your audience.
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:And we call that owning your audience
or something of the like owned
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:media, but said another way to build
subscribership to your content.
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:And this is a trend we see again
with substack with patrion.
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:We're seeing it now with the tool
called beehive that's enabling
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:this on the newsletter surface.
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:But the idea is that for too long.
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:It's been really hard to cost
justify investment in video
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:campaigns and everything.
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:When we, YouTube or Spotify or
some of these spaces alone, those
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:are important networks, but alone.
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:And then we get asked the
question of, Hey, did that work?
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:Did we generate any
pipeline from that podcast?
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:Did we, and we get pushed around the
impact of these programs when the only
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:channels that we're distributing them
on our channels that don't belong to us.
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:And so what we're believing is that
the same trend that's happening in the
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:creator economy with again, Substack
and other platforms is going to be
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:making its way into businesses and
that we're going to be rethinking.
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:becoming our own channel for content
distribution, still leveraging those
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:other spaces, leveraging LinkedIn,
YouTube, and others to, you know,
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:from an organic discovery perspective
to maybe some paid campaigns.
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:But we want to drive people to our own
channel where we can both distribute the
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:content, but also build subscribership.
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:Because if we do one, we're no longer at.
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:The throws of the algorithms that we don't
control in terms of actually showing your
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:content to your followership to, we can
actually understand all of the data that
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:today we don't get from web analytics.
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:We get anonymous impression based data
from web analytics or YouTube will
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:give us anonymous number of views,
Spotify, anonymous number of listens,
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:but when you own your own audience and
they're engaging with your content on
329
:your own surface, you can understand.
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:Behavior that can be modeled
in order to drive outcomes.
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:And so that modeling could be, Hey, this
is the type of content that's actually
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:from a topic or format perspective.
333
:That's actually resonating with
specific cohorts of your audience.
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:create more content like this.
335
:If you want to reach them or distribution,
you might say, wow, your email
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:newsletter actually isn't driving as
much engagement as you think it is.
337
:Uh, it turns out.
338
:Reddit or YouTube shorts or these
non obvious places are where these
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:people within your audience are
actually engaging with your content.
340
:the net of all of this is now
we're rethinking how content
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:is actually generating revenue.
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:We're modeling that out and we're building
a sort of a brand new buyer's journey
343
:that's Infused with first party data.
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:So we really think of this world as
almost the next generation of inbound
345
:marketing, where it's different types of
content, different channels, different
346
:formats, different ways to measure impact.
347
:We think that that's really a good
thing that should keep happening.
348
:It's just about 20 years old
and we've all been doing it.
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:and so inbound is a great way to
convert the 5 percent of your audience
350
:that's in market to buy software.
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:We think that, own media or some language
or starting to adopt around audience
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:marketing might be a better way to capture
the 95 percent of your audience that
353
:may not be ready to buy yet today, but
they're paying attention there within your
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:kind of ICP and you have an opportunity
to build that relationship ahead of
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:any would be commercial conversations.
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:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
The 5%, 95 percent split is a perfect
357
:sort of tee off into the next thought
that I had, which is around the,
358
:like the business school of this.
359
:And when I hear you, how you're
describing your product, it's taking,
360
:um, The concept of like media and
engaging with people and giving them
361
:content that they want and then it's
fusing that with What have just become?
362
:You know systemic marketing concerns
with like measurement attribution The
363
:business justification, the ROI, which
of course all makes sense because we're
364
:putting money behind it to do something.
365
:And it highlights to me a very
significant difference between like
366
:an actual media company and a B2B SaaS
company acting as a media company,
367
:which is that actual media company.
368
:They're just looking
to monetize attention.
369
:As long as you watch, you get eyeballs
for advertisers, the world sort
370
:of makes sense and we have a very
different sort of problem to solve here.
371
:So I guess you've kind of suggested
the answer already that, that this
372
:is a process of longer term brand
building, but I guess I would love you
373
:to expand on why are we doing this?
374
:what is the process through
which this media content
375
:translates into business value?
376
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
Absolutely.
377
:I mean, I think that the biggest piece
here is an appreciation that even
378
:in the B2B context, we're selling to
humans on the other end of, of these
379
:campaigns on the other end of every
contract signature, at least for now,
380
:until AI totally takes over everything.
381
:we're selling to people who, you know,
Want to learn and want to grow their
382
:career and want to, you know, build
their skills and they want to belong
383
:to something bigger than themselves.
384
:And these are all very important,
emotional kind of levers that,
385
:I think we've underemphasized as
an industry for a very long time.
386
:And so our products and services
help them achieve sort of their.
387
:You know, Maslow self actualization path.
388
:Well, because we're helping them
do their job, get more efficient.
389
:All of that content has a
really important role to play.
390
:Community has a really important
role to play to actually support the
391
:people within your, broader market.
392
:And what's interesting is like when we've
said the word community, historically,
393
:we've meant like our customer community,
like the bottom of the funnel, right?
394
:The absolute bottom of the funnel.
395
:but prospects.
396
:Who may not be empowered today with a
budget to make purchasing decisions.
397
:They're out there learning and
they're out there seeking information
398
:and they're out there, you know,
looking for ways to get better.
399
:and so what this represents, I think
this movement is an opportunity to
400
:build a relational equity with an
audience where we've spent, again,
401
:the better part of two decades.
402
:Focused on transactional
customer acquisition.
403
:And that matters.
404
:Like, I'm not saying like, we don't
need a demo request form on our, on
405
:our website or don't need to like,
capture the demand that's on the table.
406
:But the reality is when we look around
today from like a marketing perspective,
407
:not maybe not for everyone, but for
the most part, it's not going great.
408
:For us, because we've all been
doing the same things and it's
409
:just not working in the same way.
410
:But if we go back to like, what is it
about marketing that we actually do
411
:better than maybe any other department
is we help companies build relationships
412
:between a brand or a CEO or a whatever.
413
:And a broader audience, we help them build
trust and we scale that through different
414
:digital programs and other things.
415
:And so in many ways, I view this as a
Renaissance and a pull back to like the
416
:original intention of, the marketing
team, which is really meant to, build
417
:relationship for would be buyers.
418
:and the other piece I'll just add is
it doesn't have to take a long time.
419
:the challenge.
420
:Certainly.
421
:I mean, there is sort of
a relationships take time.
422
:Trust takes time to develop in, our
personal lives as much as in work.
423
:But when you have the sort of like
direct relationship, like folks have
424
:subscribed when we do see a five to 10
X improvement in conversion rate, when
425
:we lead with a subscription CTA, because
there's no commercial thing happening
426
:there, it's more of, I'm here to learn.
427
:I want to see more of
this type of content.
428
:you can sort of see the impact a
little bit faster than you otherwise
429
:would relying on the Google algorithm
to rank your page or drive the right
430
:amount of traffic so that the growth
loops are a little bit faster.
431
:But I think the point is valid.
432
:Like you have to be consistent with
the content that you're producing.
433
:It has to be good and valuable and not,
entertainment for entertainment's sake.
434
:I think we've all seen some of that
maybe on, on social, has to actually
435
:resonate and be authentic to your persona.
436
:so I think that's kind of the thinking,
the philosophy at least behind the
437
:impact of all of this, but the net net.
438
:Is people aren't hitting
their pipeline targets today
439
:brought in the broadest sense.
440
:And so what you're effectively doing with
audience marketing is you're building the
441
:pipeline for your pipeline as it were.
442
:Um, you're building the relationships
that when those folks are ready to buy,
443
:they're going to think of you first.
444
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
That's a good phrase, the
445
:pipeline for your pipeline.
446
:If you don't use that already,
you should, you should use that.
447
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: I
448
:don't, so I'm going to
449
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
that's a good one.
450
:it makes perfect sense to me and I'm
a, believer and I think, you know,
451
:very much ties into this notion of
demand creation that is, I think
452
:almost an industry standard phrase
now, though, Chris Walker pioneered
453
:it over the past few years, I think.
454
:And it's difficult to make a case
internally for that, particularly
455
:where, you know, when you're not
hitting your pipeline, people want
456
:to reflexively, double down on like,
put more into paid search, put more
457
:into the things where I can just
insert coins and see things come out
458
:the other end, which I think is a losing
game when you can't do that efficiently.
459
:What are the metrics and what is
the like customer journey of sort
460
:of archetypal customer journey
That you'd want to present.
461
:Like, how would you pitch this to a
CFO and a CEO of like, we're going to
462
:build this media company is going to
produce more pipeline and here's how
463
:it will work and how we'll measure it.
464
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: Yeah.
465
:I mean, I think one
nuance maybe up top is.
466
:I think if you're pitching
the media company proposition,
467
:it likely won't get approved.
468
:because the question will always be
like, all right, so you're just going
469
:to become like a LinkedIn influencer.
470
:And all of a sudden we're
going to just hit our goals.
471
:I would position it more as we're going
to focus on building our own audience.
472
:Using media and events and these other
things in order to help us, effectively
473
:built this first party engagement
data that we can leverage to drive
474
:our campaigns kind of going forward
or future proofing our marketing.
475
:Now, what I would start with as a leading
indicator up top is your conversion rate.
476
:And so if I, if you built sort of
this, editorial, Property as an
477
:extension of your website where
we're driving traffic to it.
478
:We think that we see about a one to 2
percent conversion rate on get demo,
479
:talk to sales, start using the product,
those commercially oriented CTAs.
480
:We see an eight to 10
percent conversion rate on.
481
:A subscribe CTA.
482
:So the first way we'll know this
is working CFO CRO is we're going
483
:to be casting a wide net within our
core ICP, within our audience of
484
:people that want to hear from us.
485
:And as they do that, we're now going
to have a direct line into them, as
486
:opposed to, whatever LinkedIn does
to their algorithm and what, whatever
487
:changes or name your social platform.
488
:So the cost of distribution,
we're going to, Aim to capture as
489
:much of our audience as possible.
490
:So that gets as close to 0 as possible.
491
:So there's an efficiency play there.
492
:Second bit then is like creating some
of this content actually isn't as
493
:expensive as some of these paid efforts.
494
:I just think about what I've spent
historically on like out of home
495
:advertising or, you know, connected TV
or whatever here you and I are today.
496
:I'm not sure if it's zero, but
maybe close to 0 for us to have this
497
:conversation from, two different cities.
498
:it's getting cheaper to
actually produce great content.
499
:And so the operating costs are
going to run a lot lower, than a
500
:traditional kind of paid campaign would.
501
:And so the, what I would say is what
we'll then be able to do is to map
502
:impact across our target accounts
across, you know, all of these kind of
503
:downstream, outcomes that we care about
both in the name of generating pipeline.
504
:And so we'll want to be held accountable
to that pipeline target through.
505
:All of these, efforts, but also perhaps a
bit further because if we're taking sort
506
:of an individual or account based view of
how our content is actually impacting the
507
:funnel, we can talk about things like how
we're impacting renewals or expansion or
508
:helping drive more product adoption, any
of the other kind of leading indicators
509
:to a renew, a kind of post sales outcome.
510
:but of course, like revenue
is going to be king.
511
:And so as we think about, Again, not
just generating pipeline, but how we're
512
:deploying content into our own audience
of, contacts affiliated with opportunities
513
:that are set to close this quarter.
514
:Next, we can start saying, wow, these
are the topics that are interesting
515
:to these 6 CXOs who are trying to
close in the next few, quarters.
516
:Let's deploy a content campaign.
517
:Directed at them.
518
:Let's invite them to participate
in a podcast on that very topic.
519
:We can start getting really like
precision driven around the type
520
:of content that we're producing in
order to help impact those outcomes.
521
:These are things we just don't know today.
522
:We don't know what our CXO, type
of content they're consuming,
523
:outside the context of our
kind of engagement with them.
524
:And so the broader kind of.
525
:Way I would approach the conversation
is like, what if we ran our team, our
526
:marketing team, our revenue team, like
Netflix runs theirs, where they're using
527
:audience data about their audience, like
their own, in order to inform production
528
:decisions, distribution decisions, and to
be able to tell a better story on impact.
529
:That's sort of the, I think framing
that we found our early customers
530
:have been successful making.
531
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
and so to take it one level deeper,
532
:thinking about like the metrics and
how you'd actually report out on this
533
:subscribers, I think makes total sense.
534
:everyone can measure that.
535
:Everyone can understand that your next
step then is it, content consumption
536
:metrics within target accounts?
537
:It's like, all right, we have these
target accounts in our subscriber base
538
:and they're consuming on average X.
539
:Pieces of content or X minutes
of viewership per week.
540
:Is that where you take it next?
541
:Now,
542
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
we want to think through this one
543
:a little bit more because in the
historical context, we had the MQL,
544
:which was meant to be a combination of
firmographic and behavioral fit, right?
545
:But the levers and the scoring was
completely at the discretion of,
546
:marketing ops or whoever, you know, was
going, it was going to be driving that,
547
:not, not, not pointing any fingers.
548
:but you know, we have to think about.
549
:How do you make that leading indicator
of, of some type of commercial outcome?
550
:a bit more scientific perhaps
for lack of a better term.
551
:And so I think a part of it is, is
there's some engagement scoring that we
552
:have to introduce and we're, you know,
we're not ready to share anything here
553
:yet because we're still in the lab kind
of thinking about it, but it's some
554
:function of, are they someone that.
555
:You should sell to, and then
are they consuming content?
556
:Are they coming back?
557
:Are they liking or commenting or sharing?
558
:Like if we had all of the data that
YouTube has on our audience, you
559
:know, how do we score that engagement
and monitor engagement on a week
560
:to week basis, but tune the model.
561
:Not just to driving more engagement
for engagement sake, but driving
562
:engagement towards an outcome.
563
:and that's, I think, the
future AI is going to really
564
:have a big role to play here.
565
:and your AI is only so good as your
1st party data that you feed it.
566
:so that's kind of the way we're thinking
about helping solve this problem.
567
:but I imagine it's some type of
data driven engagement score based
568
:on, who they are and kind of what
they're doing in your network.
569
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
engagement data could be telling you,
570
:I mean, it clearly does tell you how
much does a person like your content and
571
:which content do they like, et cetera.
572
:It may or may not be telling you
whether they are moving closer
573
:towards that commercial outcome
that you're looking for, which.
574
:Could be dependent on their
own, internal budget timelines,
575
:replacing another product.
576
:There's all sorts of factors.
577
:if we think of the traditional funnel,
it's like, you know, a new content,
578
:and then there's someone who's engaged.
579
:And then if we think about that MQL, which
really indicates that they're ready for
580
:a sales process, is it just sort of a
matter of having those little on CTAs in
581
:various places within that environment?
582
:Or is there another thing that
you're thinking about for that?
583
:Um,
584
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
but also that's where the content
585
:kind of production strategy kicks in.
586
:Like, how do we start creating
later stage content and putting
587
:those assets on our network?
588
:And so we can start to monitor
folks that aren't just.
589
:Interested in how to do X for my
profession, but how did this company
590
:get value from using audience plus
or, product demos or use cases.
591
:And you
592
:start to see signals that are a
bit more aligned to buying intent.
593
:But look at the end of the day, like I'm.
594
:All in on AI and everything,
but like you could rear end the
595
:car and be a jerk to your buyer.
596
:And then no AI will ever
like figure that out.
597
:Right.
598
:So I think a part of this, two is
using this data as directionally
599
:helpful as signals, but, know, you
still need that Human touch point,
600
:I think, to really, uncover this.
601
:Like, I don't think there's like
an autonomous marketing kind of
602
:outcome here, anytime soon, at least.
603
:and we're going to have to rely
on our, our sales counterparts and
604
:customer success and others to help
us really paint the full picture.
605
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
makes sense.
606
:And in a lot of ways, what you're
describing, it's sort of just taking
607
:that notion of a nurture journey
where people are consuming different
608
:types of content at different kinds of
stages and importing it into this much
609
:more richer sort of three dimensional
multimedia environment where there's
610
:just different types of content.
611
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
And that's where we draw the
612
:connection to inbound marketing.
613
:Cause I'm like, it's not wildly
different, but we're trying to like.
614
:Mature and modernize inbound around
these new formats and new kind of
615
:buying behaviors and expectations
of the market new channels.
616
:it's a cognitive reference.
617
:We already have around A practice, the
only thing I would add, and I don't want
618
:to make a salesy or anything, but one
of the things to think about is like
619
:the approach of how data is stored with
your traditional marketing automation
620
:platforms is typically, every one of these
platforms is built on a static database.
621
:And so what's interesting
about our approach is.
622
:effectively building a self
adapting knowledge graph that
623
:sits underneath all of this data.
624
:So we can build connections
to different things that
625
:otherwise might be less obvious.
626
:And so how topics of content, consumed
in a specific channel for specific
627
:personas, fit into some type of
different path in that nurture sequence.
628
:That's sort of where we
think the technology has.
629
:Uh, evolved since these platforms were
architected and we think there's a
630
:better way to kind of put this data
to work in this next generation,
631
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: it's
kind of like the vision and reality,
632
:you know, those memes where it shows
you like the idea and then the reality.
633
:And I think whenever people graph
out a nurture, that's always the
634
:vision is like, it's going to be
this multi dimensional adaptive,
635
:whatever.
636
:And the reality is drip, drip,
drip, you know, maybe you've
637
:got two or three streams.
638
:But yeah, I could see how, given
the right volume of data and
639
:the right volume of content.
640
:You could feasibly produce
that, sort of experience.
641
:And thinking about volume of content,
um, you have, I think quite wisely,
642
:taken a, like a partnership approach to
producing a lot of your, your content.
643
:some folks on your team, some
folks, I think that, that you're
644
:just partnering with that are
independent creators, but like all
645
:the kind of folks that I tend to see.
646
:In my LinkedIn feed, who, are going to
be, to be content creators about Drani,
647
:Todd Clouser, I think he did a show with
Andrea, for more than the mops side.
648
:you've really built a
universe with these people.
649
:have you gone about doing that?
650
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
Well, important, confession.
651
:less than 10 employees.
652
:We're a very small company
punching above our weight.
653
:So, I say that both in a way.
654
:That suggests we have to rely on
a lot of other people, because
655
:our internal voices are not, you
know, what have as many of them.
656
:but also if a company with less
than 10 employees can do this,
657
:anyone can, I'm pretty sure.
658
:so I think the idea of using, the modern
language would be creators or influencers
659
:to help create content, you Co marketing
with another brand on a webinar or
660
:something along those lines or working
with an evangelist or even an analyst to
661
:some context, this is just sort of the
next kind of chapter of of that same kind
662
:of thing, does a couple of things for you.
663
:First of all, it adds equity.
664
:To your own brand and your own
narrative, because it's one thing if
665
:I was out there telling the world,
you need to own your own audience.
666
:And like, no one else said it
back to me that they were just
667
:like, no, dark social is forever.
668
:but having other voices, not just
validate that this claim that we're
669
:making is true, but adding their voice
and experience to actually educate people.
670
:The market makes audience plus looks
better at the parent level, because
671
:we're the place for that conversation.
672
:And I think given our, our conversation
today, this came from Gainsight.
673
:This was straight up
the play at Gainsight.
674
:We had a blog and we had other people
right on our blog that were practitioners
675
:or executives in that industry.
676
:And so we, as the very young company
weren't making a claim to be the
677
:experts, but we were making a claim
to be the conveners of experts.
678
:And so I think there's
something really powerful there.
679
:I think given our new world now and
how influence is emerging, you also
680
:get distribution in those partnerships.
681
:And so these are people that
are going to be promoting your
682
:narrative and perhaps even the link.
683
:To your property to their LinkedIn
audience or to their kind of spaces.
684
:And so that's a little bit of a growth
hack as well, because you're getting
685
:their traffic sent to your property versus
you having to generate this traffic and
686
:driving those conversions on your own.
687
:And so building sort of this methodical
kind of creator program that is activating
688
:those voices, is strategic and key.
689
:Now, Over time, as our company gets
bigger, don't think it should be like,
690
:whatever it is today, maybe 70 30 and
we should be more like, either 50 50
691
:or 60 40 with our own content that,
you know, thinking about our bench
692
:of spokespeople or, external voices.
693
:and that's where I think.
694
:The, as we talked about where the
cost of production is getting lower,
695
:building an at home studio like this,
doing a studio in your office, uh, is
696
:just not as expensive as it used to be.
697
:there is benefit to over time
you and your brand being the
698
:authority on a specific topic.
699
:but again, maybe the last piece
I'll say it gives you scale.
700
:you know, again, we couldn't do this
with eight people, whatever we're at now.
701
:and publish content every day, but
at this point we are publishing
702
:content just about every single
day with a team of one marketer on
703
:board, activating the voices of all
of these folks within our community.
704
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
Well, it's very impressive.
705
:and I know you, you
say it's not that hard.
706
:It's not that expensive to produce
good content, but I, took a look
707
:through your hub and you know the one
of the series you're doing right now
708
:no sleep till brooklyn it You know
709
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
That was a little more
710
:expensive.
711
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: say
that's that's pretty it felt high touch.
712
:It felt polished.
713
:there's obviously camera
people you know surrounding
714
:the That's daunting maybe for some
companies that don't have that expertise.
715
:They haven't done that before It's like
how do we start doing something like that?
716
:You
717
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
I think it goes goes to
718
:the creativity part, right?
719
:Like, this is a documentary that we
created around building an event.
720
:And from inception, basically
through to the event day.
721
:Now that budget was mostly of
shooting at the event, which came
722
:from our conference budget, which
we monetize through sponsorships
723
:and ticket sales and other things.
724
:I was sort of baked into that
program where I would say.
725
:maybe 60 to 70 percent of all
that footage was captured.
726
:So what we paid for, in addition to
that was a week of filming at our
727
:offices in Phoenix, where we shot
the opening for the conference.
728
:We actually did a parody video of no
sleep till Brooklyn by the Beastie Boys.
729
:And we shot that there.
730
:We did like customer testimonials
and a number of other things.
731
:And so we used a week to basically
shoot everything we thought we could
732
:with this amazing production team.
733
:And out of it, we got so much more
than just that one show, which we're
734
:now over the next six weeks, you know,
dropping a new episode every week.
735
:we got things that, years ago
would have cost maybe, you know,
736
:six figures plus to produce.
737
:And everything I just mentioned was, 30
K something along those lines, maybe less
738
:not including the onsite event stuff.
739
:So the idea of 30 K for a six
episode series, it's terrible.
740
:Don't do it.
741
:Like that's a bad planning unless
you're a much bigger company maybe.
742
:but the ability to get what we got out
of it because we were strategic with how
743
:we used our production budget, helped
make it a little bit less daunting.
744
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
just one more question on the, tone,
745
:the vibe, the formats of content that
you're using, or just that are common
746
:out there as I was, writing the little
intro for this episode, it occurred
747
:to me, like how much of what we're
seeing represents some kind of like
748
:generational shift and sort of this
Gen Z energy I mean, I'm a millennial,
749
:the formats and the ways of talking.
750
:It reminds me more of what like my teenage
daughter looks at than what I'm used to
751
:in the B2B world, what's going on there?
752
:Maybe you can just comment on that.
753
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
I'm like you, I see some things on
754
:LinkedIn that again, I don't want to
disparage, but it wouldn't work for me.
755
:Let's put it that way.
756
:Maybe it's like a little too
much entertainment and not enough
757
:meat to some of the content,
that might be a generational
758
:thing that very well could be.
759
:I don't know.
760
:Uh, and so I want to save some
room for that being, okay.
761
:As you know, this next generation
of buyers get into the workplace.
762
:but don't know that at least millennials
like us or whatever, Jen X, what came
763
:before us?
764
:I'm not even sure.
765
:I'm not sure that they're making
purchasing decisions on some
766
:of this edutainment stuff.
767
:I think it's keeping
your brand top of mind.
768
:It might give you a chuckle or something
as you're kind of scrolling your feed.
769
:But I everything we
talked about breaks down.
770
:If your content isn't good, and good is
subjective, what works for a marketing
771
:audience may not work for a, engineering
audience or something of the like.
772
:So what you have to create
has to be authentic.
773
:It has to actually deliver value and be
educational, or inspirational or hit on
774
:something more than just entertainment.
775
:There's room for entertainment.
776
:But it's got to hit on more, especially
if you want to capture today's buyers,
777
:who, again, depending on your audience
may not yet be in this gen Z community,
778
:but all that is subject to change.
779
:I mean, I'm still listening to music from
the nineties and early two thousands.
780
:And so it's, quite possible that I'm on
the wrong side of history on this one.
781
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
quite possibly.
782
:I am too, but I have reflected like
Creating just content that is great
783
:content, funny content, entertaining
content, is challenging in and of itself.
784
:Doing it in a way that ties into a
brand, or that achieves a business
785
:purpose, is like, next level difficult.
786
:And I wonder sometimes, like I see
these skits and things on my feed, and
787
:I'm like, Oh that's funny, I like that.
788
:And then I'm like, I
remember the person I do.
789
:I remember the brand that
they were even, that it
790
:was related to or who I feel that
maybe has done a good job of this.
791
:I look at like corporate bro and how
he's tied his content into what he
792
:and Sahil are building at bravado.
793
:I mean, he's just so good, like as a
next level talent in the first place.
794
:And then it's a very
natural tie into like,
795
:they're the community for sales.
796
:So maybe that's a positive example,
but how do you think about that
797
:problem of establishing that linkage?
798
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
it's of existential importance,
799
:because people buy from people.
800
:I think we've been
saying that for a while.
801
:You had a bunch of likes and, you know,
on LinkedIn, if you say something to
802
:that end, marketing should be more human.
803
:It's true.
804
:It should be, but literally the algorithms
are favoring individual accounts over
805
:company accounts in terms of distribution.
806
:So like there's a hard wiring in the
system that is making it harder to
807
:actually build brand as an entity
versus brand as an individual.
808
:so like, I think, I think you have
to find ways to, run into the wind
809
:here and connect it because the
risk, otherwise you're like, Oh yeah.
810
:Like.
811
:I don't know, Todd's hilarious.
812
:I'm never going to buy the
software, but I love following him.
813
:And that's great for
814
:Todd.
815
:It's awesome.
816
:He should, you know, he should do
something, you know, next after
817
:this with, with the followership.
818
:But I think, you've got
to find ways to do it.
819
:find ways to connect.
820
:And I think maybe our take on it is.
821
:Some of the people, we have to use
LinkedIn, YouTube, these other channels
822
:strategically to like be seen and
have followership for our people
823
:and our P and we need to create a
bench of people who are going to be
824
:doing that for us, including your
CEO, including, others around the
825
:executive table, but the benefit to
sending that traffic back to your.
826
:Website, which is a corporate entity
building subscribership with that person
827
:and the entity, I think helps establish,
equity in that relationship as well.
828
:So maybe there's an opportunity
here, but certainly it's important.
829
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459:
Awesome.
830
:probably last topic we have time for,
but I'd love to talk a little bit about
831
:a golden hour and what you did there.
832
:And I mean, I wasn't there, but I saw it
kind of play out on LinkedIn and the way
833
:that it was positioned, even the name
golden, I mean, it's not your typical
834
:like rah, rah, rah, marketing conference.
835
:It was much more, um, Let's get inspired.
836
:Let's, you know, sort of artistic.
837
:It was a bit more of a laid back vibe.
838
:It was intimate, deliberately.
839
:So, you know, local craft
food, all that sort of thing.
840
:really different than like dreamforce
million people, everything, you know,
841
:how did you think it's, it sounds, I
can see now some of the roots of that in
842
:your experience at Gainesite perhaps, but
tell us about the genesis of that event.
843
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501: Well,
part of it too, was, you know, Gainsight,
844
:we were optimizing around scale.
845
:it was like world domination, right?
846
:how big can this thing get?
847
:How many people can we get into the venue?
848
:And eventually it was like Moscone
center was like the dream of any tech
849
:marketer is to fill out Moscone centers.
850
:That's where Dreamforce it's held.
851
:and then I went to hop in, for
a short period of time where.
852
:I saw kind of firsthand the evolution
of the medium where events went to only
853
:virtual, and then there was conversation
around hybrid and how that would work.
854
:And so a lot of what I've been
learning is that events themselves
855
:were changing, way people's expectation
of attending events was changing.
856
:and so against at audience plus,
like, I definitely went back to.
857
:The same playbook where I gained
said it was our first three months.
858
:This is our first two years.
859
:So I actually waited long enough
till we had again, seven full time
860
:employees, I think, or whatever
it was to, to host a conference.
861
:but there was definitely, again, as
our conversation has led us to like
862
:this movement orientation to what we
were creating, there's a community
863
:of early believers in this movement
and we want it to be the convener
864
:brand to bring these folks together.
865
:Um, But we wanted to do it in a way that
was modern because now, unlike customer
866
:success, we're marketing the marketers.
867
:And so we start to look at like, well,
what are the marketing conferences
868
:of record today that people go to?
869
:probably if not dreamforce, the thought
is inbound for HubSpot, which is built
870
:on that again, old way of thinking
in terms of how many people can we
871
:pile into here and what I learned at
Hopin is like, people don't travel.
872
:For content anymore.
873
:Uh, they travel for connection, for
experience, for exclusive access.
874
:and it's going to be hard for any
brand to drive thousands and thousands
875
:of people to an event anymore.
876
:And we've all changed COVID has changed
our feelings and expectations, right?
877
:Like, I don't know that I want
to be in a hall with a thousand
878
:people, 2000 people or whatever,
like at least have given a choice.
879
:Maybe I need to for
work, but I don't know.
880
:Kind of rather not.
881
:And so we're like, okay, if what
is the example of a marketing event
882
:where the medium is the message where
it's not just the content from the
883
:stage, but it's everything else.
884
:It's the experiential kind of component.
885
:And so that's sort of the original
idea and vision for golden hours
886
:meant to inspire not just based on
the content and who was in the room,
887
:but how the event was produced.
888
:And so that meant.
889
:picking a venue in a host
city that was non traditional.
890
:We kind of got lucky with Brooklyn
won't be the forever home, but that
891
:was sort of an example of a, you know,
I don't think any B2B conferences
892
:that I know of happened in Brooklyn.
893
:At least everything in Manhattan.
894
:the hotel venue was very like artsy
and kind of hipster y and, you
895
:know, felt very like experiential.
896
:We kept it to 300 people.
897
:We'll never have more than
300 people in any one city.
898
:and.
899
:Focused a lot on networking
and how we kind of curated
900
:relationship building on site.
901
:we invested in entertainment in year
one dinners at conferences or this thing
902
:that only like the privileged VIPs or
speakers or prospects get invited to.
903
:we set a table for every attendee
a seat at the table and sponsors,
904
:speakers and attendees alike.
905
:We're all, you know,
kind of treated the same.
906
:Um, we had an entertainment kind of
hook as well around Lindsay Sterling.
907
:And I think the biggest piece that
was the differentiator was, um.
908
:The 300 people in the conference hall down
below had this exclusive experience, but
909
:20 floors up, we built a broadcast studio.
910
:And so we actually built a digital
broadcast, which was not just like hitting
911
:go on the live stream and the main stage.
912
:It was.
913
:Sort of like a, you know, from E
from the red carpet or college game
914
:day or kind of desk experience that
had exclusive conversations clips
915
:from earlier in the day for what
you missed if you didn't attend.
916
:And we broadcast it on LinkedIn to create.
917
:A widespread kind of level of awareness,
but also hopefully FOMO because
918
:people are like, I want to know how
that Colin Fleming keynote went.
919
:You're like, well, you got to come
next year or wait until afterwards,
920
:because all of this content is going to
be exclusive just for our subscribers.
921
:So make sure you subscribe
in order to get access to it.
922
:And what we found is in the
weeks after golden hour.
923
:We had more subscriber growth week on week
than we did in the weeks building up to
924
:the conference, by strategically dropping
content, in the weeks that followed.
925
:So it was just year 1.
926
:This was meant to be our like,
proof of concept, and already
927
:some good ideas for next year.
928
:but I think a lot of
these core principles are.
929
:reflective of what the event
community is seeing in general as
930
:things evolving and changing from the
inbound dreamforce models of the past.
931
:justin-norris_1_07-26-2024_110459: I love
that execution and driving it a they like
932
:the desk experience and then driving it
back into your kind of subscriber base.
933
:Is brilliant and it certainly
seems just if I observe the events
934
:that people seem to really love
like winter spring or in more In
935
:you know my world like mopspalooza
on the mop side or revops af in
936
:the revops community these more
intimate events seem to be where The
937
:winds are blowing so I know we've
938
:reached time, but uh, this was
just a super cool conversation.
939
:I love what you're doing It seems awesome.
940
:And just wish you much success You We'll
have to check in again a little bit down
941
:the road and see how things are going.
942
:anthony-kennada_1_07-26-2024_110501:
Sounds good.
943
:Yeah.
944
:Great conversation.
945
:Thanks for having me on.