A Playbook for Winning as a Marketing Ops Leader - Jessica Kao

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You're listening to RebOps

FM with Justin Norris.

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welcome to RebOps FM everyone.

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Today I am joined by Jessica

Kao, Senior Director of Marketing

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Ops and Martech at CloudFlare.

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Jessica actually earned her PhD in

Cancer Biology from Stanford, started

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her career as an in house marketer

and Marketing Ops Pro before spending

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five years in consulting at DigitalPi.

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And then she returned in house

to lead MOPS teams for enterprise

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companies like F5 and Cloudflare.

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And Jessica, one observation I'll

make since we've floated around in

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a lot of the same circles over the

past 10 years is I've always been

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impressed by your ability to communicate

your knowledge, build a platform.

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You know, you were always someone who

spoke at conferences like Marketo Summit

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and most recently at Mopsapalooza.

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I actually did a whole session

on communicating to the C suite.

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Which, consistently, you know,

I was looking on LinkedIn,

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everybody who attended that

session seemed to be blown away.

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And communication is an area where

I think many operators from a

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tech background often struggle.

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So, really glad you could come on today

and we're going to talk about, you

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know, building MOPS teams, roadmapping,

communication, and a whole bunch more.

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So, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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It is such an important topic.

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It's a topic I'm super passionate about.

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So, I'm happy to be here and

we're going to have a lot of

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fun talking about communication.

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Awesome.

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So, why don't we just start off, you

know, as somebody who runs MOPS teams,

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I often just like to ask the question

about the mandate of marketing ops

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generally, because it can kind of

be a bit nebulous around the edges.

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How do you think about the

primary mission of your team?

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Well, I actually have a mission and vision

statement for my team, and I don't rule

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what it is off the top of my head exactly.

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But really, we are the

accelerant to all of marketing.

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And if you think about anything that

happens within marketing that goes

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out, especially the demand gen, the

go to market, most, most everything

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will flow through our marketing

operations and technology pipes, right?

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If you think about it, what

doesn't not a whole lot.

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Doesn't throw through

flow through our pipes.

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And so we are the pipes and all

of the data, all of the execution

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on the operation flows through it.

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So we see all, so we are in a very unique

place to be able to connect the dots.

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Between different parts of marketing,

but also marketing operations.

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As I said, at mobster Palooza and other

in general, my vision and philosophy is.

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You want the cmo to come to marketing

operations and marketing technology

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When they have a problem that they're

trying to solve for A lot of the

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challenges we can really help out.

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We are in a unique position to be

able to solve these challenges and

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to accelerate what marketing does.

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So talk about acceleration and from

that point of view, how do you evaluate?

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If you're doing a good job, if your team

is doing a good job, is it ultimately

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boiled down to the success of the

marketing team and achieving their

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objectives, or do you have a separate

Northstar set of Northstar KPIs that

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you look at as a marketing ops leader?

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I mean, our KPIs, I

mean, indirectly, right?

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I think there's two parts into

that question, which is how

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do I know that we're winning?

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And what are the KPIs

that I align my team to?

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Well, how do I know that we're winning?

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You're winning when the CMO views you

as a strategic right hand partner.

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You're winning when you are a bullet

point in the board slide deck.

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That's how you know that you're winning.

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These are, these are different

than the KPIs that we dock our

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roadmap and the things that we do.

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Those are two actually very

separate things, right?

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Because there's only so much we do.

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You can have the perfect marketing

technology systems, the perfect

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marketing technology architecture.

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We have pipeline goals.

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Those are marketing KPIs.

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Everything that we are doing are aligned

to the CMO's yearly initiatives, right?

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Like, so a lot of times, one of the,

actually the key points that I made

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during the session that I gave at

Mopsapalooza about translating GeekSpeak

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to C Suite is, Does everyone on the

marketing ops team know how, what they're

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doing on an everyday basis ladders

up to the key priorities of the CMO?

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But first, in order to do that, you

have to know, does everybody on the

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team know what the key priorities are?

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Right?

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Like usually there's a themes for FY 24,

you know, some companies is like, okay,

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we're going to supercharge demand gen or

we're going after the healthcare vertical

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or whatever the priorities of the CMO are.

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Ultimately, everything is pretty much

docked to coming from a B2B SaaS company.

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It's how are we driving more BDR

meetings, SDR meetings, which is

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ultimately going to go to pipeline, right?

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Like, how are we bringing

more high quality leads?

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How are we surfacing more higher quality

leads to the BDR so that they can

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create pipeline and they can create?

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All of those things, everything that we

do is docked into the priorities, right?

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Like, so how do we maximize the

utilization of our technology stack?

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At the end of the day, there are

things that are outside our control.

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Winning is just a different thing than

the KPIs that were golden measured on.

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Two elements to that, if I unpack

it, then there's the success at

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the KPI and functional level.

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And.

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What I'm hearing from you to some

degree, tell me if you agree with

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this, is, you know, marketing ops can't

really be succeeding if ultimately

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the marketing team is not succeeding.

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The business output that the team

is trying to reach, it's one team

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and one goal, it sounds like to me.

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Because if what you're doing is

laddering up to those goals, ultimately

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marketing has to achieve their goals

as well for marketing ops to be

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considered successful in that way.

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Do you align with that point of view?

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Right?

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And then I think there's two ways that

in general people interpret it It's like

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oh, you know, well, we don't technically

run the demand gen programs, right?

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They have a demand gen strategy We're

here just to execute it But actually I

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would challenge everyone to flip it the

other way around which is we can bring

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clarity We know what is best practices.

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There's a better way to let's say, you

know You're hosting a webinar and you want

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to understand like did we do the right?

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Did we do a good job of

targeting the right people?

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Demand gen will have their strategy,

but we actually have the privilege

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and the power and the responsibility

to provide clarity, to provide

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clarity on like, Hey, because all

webinars run through our fingertips.

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We have a very unique position

to be able to highlight and

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provide clarity on trends.

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We have the ability to analyze,

like, let's say, the 300 webinars

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that we're doing and to spot

the trends that nobody else can.

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And so, just because, like,

yeah, do we own webinar strategy?

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No.

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Do we, are we the ones that are

finding the speakers and doing,

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buying the list and doing the target

audiences and doing the partnerships?

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No.

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And I think people stop there.

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It's like, well, I put out the webinar.

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Hey, I programmed it.

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I put it on the platform, but there

is so much more opportunity to

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be viewed as a strategic partner.

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It's not even going extra miles.

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Like, hey, we have the opportunity.

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You just got to take the steps

forward to just go and analyze.

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We are sitting on mounds of

data that nobody else has.

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We can analyze all 400 of those webinars

and realize we see a trend that says when

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you do webinars that kind of look like

this and you're targeting these people,

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you're not getting the right engagement.

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But When we do this, and we really

showcase making this up, right,

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troubleshooting on these widgets, then

we really get engagement and we see

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a really high percentage of people.

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Well, et cetera, like finding engagement,

whatever that is, or a really high

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percentage of people attending on demand.

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These are the people who end

up being really engaged with

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the BDRs when they reach out.

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No one else can really do that analysis

except for marketing operations.

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So I challenge, you know, your

listeners out there to really what

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can you do that you're not doing

out that you're sitting on this, all

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this opportunity, what clarity can

you provide to marketing leadership?

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And that's how you become strategic.

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That's how you get out of the cycle.

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Of being back office cost center

to really providing business value.

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It gets a mindset of, of ownership.

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So I like to think of it and it's what

sets apart a really strong tactical

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team who can execute efficiently,

who's very competent, who knows their

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systems, but who still says, tell me

what to do from a team that's really

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perceived as that strategic partner.

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It's a kind of overused term,

but it really is what it is.

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In some ways that ties in then to the

other half of what you said in terms of

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what winning looks like, appearing as

a bullet in the board slide, having the

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CMO feel like you're the person that

she or he can turn to, I think that's

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hard for a lot of people because it

feels self promotional, it feels even a

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little political to aspire to that, and

mops people can be very self effacing

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and sort of, I'll just be here with my

tools in the background if you need me.

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And you don't shy away from that.

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Is that second nature to you or

is that just something you've

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had to train yourself to do?

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Where does that come from for you?

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It's a skill set.

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As I've come up in my career, as many

of you have been on this journey with me

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and seen me actually go up in my career,

it's these really important skill sets

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where it's the next milestone, the next

like acceleration leap is the ability

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to be able to translate what we do into

something that Provides business impact.

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I'm a moms person and a data nerd

at heart, which I'm sure many of,

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you know, it's not a bragging,

like, look at what we can do.

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We want to solve all your problems.

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That is the by product of doing all

the things that I just talked about.

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It's we're bringing clarity.

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I'm like, this is what's

actually happening.

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It's coming from a place of humility

and providing clarity and insight.

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It's a mindset, but it's also

a very different approach.

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What we do, our work every day

is ticketed, and it's very easy

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to get into this habit of like,

okay, how's productivity measured?

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Oh, did we complete the

hundred requests that came in?

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That's not winning at all.

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What it is, is about prioritization and

doing the right things and providing

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clarity around what those right things

are, because they're not gonna know.

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And so a lot of times I challenge

my team as well as, you know, in

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coaching and mentoring others, is have

we done our job to provide clarity?

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What the priority is and what the

cost of doing that instead of this.

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We have some work to go do before we

put it back on our stakeholders, right?

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We still have that responsibility

to provide the clarity.

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Prioritization is a constant theme

for me in these discussions about

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what makes Ops truly effective.

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Is that something that road mapping

process Yearly cycle, quarterly cycle,

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monthly cycle, what is the right

cadence from your point of view?

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Agile.

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Thinking about marketing operations and

marketing technology like a product.

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So I have a product manager.

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We think of what we do as capabilities.

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We do quarterly releases,

monthly releases.

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The goal is prioritization of

leads for the BDR so they can know

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which leads to focus on first.

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That is a capability that

we launch and release.

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How are we going to do that?

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Yeah, of course we're going to do that by,

you know, standing up, standing up lead

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scoring or whatever, you know, whatever

architectural thing that we're doing.

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So it first starts with Think about

how would you launch a product

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and how do you create a product?

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It's a mindset switch.

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Think about that.

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And then it has to be planned.

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So we do quarterly capability planning.

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It's all agile, right?

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Because stuff changes all the time.

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So we do quarterly planning, and

then we do monthly sprint planning,

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and then we have our plan of what

we're going to release each month.

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Two week sprints is too much for us.

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We kind of operate a lot more like

IT, kind of like what I call IT like,

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because we do agile with monthly sprints.

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That's about the right fit for us.

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We have a backlog.

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We have an above the line, below

the line capability backlog.

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So when someone wants to add something

in, It's really that decisioning tree.

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Is this an easy no, or maybe, and if

it's one of those, like, Hey, this

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comes from the top, we have to go do it.

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Then we go right to the, above the

line, below the line, and then that

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above the line, below the line is

always published onto our wiki or at

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other companies, we always had a slide

deck or a SharePoint site or something.

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So that people always knew.

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So when we do get those requests and

the conversations, you know, this

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sounds really easy, but like, it

has been like a three year journey

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across multiple companies for myself

to get down to a system like this.

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Typically I've been in organizations where

I come in brand new and we're at about 80

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to 90 percent ad hoc, 10 percent roadmap.

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Then I have goals around, we want to.

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right size that.

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So then the next level is

making this up this year.

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We want to get to 50 percent

roadmap, 50 percent ad hoc next year.

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We want to get to 80 percent

roadmap, 20 percent ad hoc.

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Those are internal.

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operational goals.

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So then we track those, we track, you

can call them story points, you can call

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them tracking hours, whatever it is.

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And we actually track

those pretty closely.

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And I think that actually comes from

my background of being a consultant.

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Fortuitously, the skill set that you

kind of gain unintentionally along the

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way is to be able to scope projects by

hours, because you spent so many years

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tracking a 15 minute increments of your

time, you kind of have a really good

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gut feeling of how long something takes.

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A skill set that I didn't really

No, that would come in so handy

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now, but it really comes in very,

very handy at my level and beyond.

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And that's, I think really

differentiated on what you can do.

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So for all of those folks that are out

there that are consultants, ex consultants

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wanting to go back in house, it's actually

one of your superpowers that you would

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be surprised how incredibly useful

it is because you can actually scope.

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really well, how long

something is going to take.

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And then the other thing about

prioritization, and this is something

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like a skillset that takes time to change,

which is some leader or someone would be

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asked, Hey, how long does it take to do X?

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And you're like, Oh my God, it'll

take like, you know, a year.

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And we got to switch our mindset

because we are mops people.

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We are pretty much tend to lean on the

perfectionist side of the complete side.

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Like, Oh, we got to get it perfect.

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Constantly said, she's like,

Oh yeah, I would take a year.

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You just kind of like,

okay, just kind of give up.

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I'm gonna go find a different way.

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Right.

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They don't want to really involve

you, but what you really want

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is you want them to involve you.

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They really want them to be your

stakeholders, to be partners.

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And so really thinking about

it's like, what's MVP look like?

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How can we communicate?

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Like there's a crawl, walk, run,

but let's just talk about crawling.

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Crawling is winning.

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It's binary.

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Did you, were you able to launch a new

capability that we didn't have before?

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Yes.

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Yes, and we're winning.

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That's a thing that happens a lot.

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It's a constant uphill battle to struggle

to prove resources, headcount, budget.

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But look at the way that we're talking.

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Could we say, Yes, and we can get

to 20 percent by next month, 40

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percent by the next quarter, 100

percent by the following year.

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We're literally saying

the exact same thing.

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People are going to be more

willing to view mops as

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problem solvers than blockers.

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This is powerful because the shift for

me and what you're describing is like

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the continuous delivery of incremental

value as opposed to the pursuit of

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a massive launch that's perfect.

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One of the things I've noticed,

especially, you know, working in a

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smaller company than you, and I've

worked in a lot of startups, perfection

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is an unobtainable and forever elusive

goal, and you'll torment yourself

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just trying to What can we do today

and what's needed most right now?

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So from that point of view of

like prioritization and that, or

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like that above the line, below

the line framing that you talked

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about, what's the methodology,

if any, that you use to determine

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what really should be prioritized?

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It's strategy and futuristic

vision of where we need to go.

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Like I know where we need to go

in one, two, and three years,

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and that's my guiding North Star.

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I carry a internal roadmap and

an external three facing roadmap.

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What that means is the externally

facing road map is quick wins is

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: 00:15:52

not necessarily tied to level of

effort, but I have several sayings

304

: 00:15:56

that I try to coach my team on.

305

: 00:15:58

And one of the ones is if you don't have

an opinion, they will make one for you.

306

: 00:16:02

So if you don't have a road map and a

vision of where you need to go and why.

307

: 00:16:07

Then you are going to succumb to all

of the tennis balls from all of your

308

: 00:16:10

stakeholders telling you what you should

do One of my mentors said to me You have

309

: 00:16:16

to get buy in from your boss and their

peers on your roadmap and i'm like what?

310

: 00:16:20

This is my martech roadmap.

311

: 00:16:23

Why why like why like they don't

know anything about mobs and martech

312

: 00:16:26

Like why do they need to buy in?

313

: 00:16:28

And then I'm like, Oh, that's because

if they're bought in on your roadmap,

314

: 00:16:35

then that's the alignment to get

you the air cover that you need.

315

: 00:16:39

Where do you think all those

requests are coming from?

316

: 00:16:42

Just peers.

317

: 00:16:43

And so when you need the air cover to be

like, I'm trying to do this over here,

318

: 00:16:47

you're asking me to do this over here.

319

: 00:16:50

What do I do?

320

: 00:16:50

No.

321

: 00:16:50

Then you're already aligned at the top.

322

: 00:16:52

And then all it is is a

simple conversation around.

323

: 00:16:55

This is what we're trying to do.

324

: 00:16:57

Can you help us align your team?

325

: 00:16:59

Great.

326

: 00:16:59

We'll come and visit you on

your team meetings and meet with

327

: 00:17:02

y'all to make sure y'all align.

328

: 00:17:03

Done and done.

329

: 00:17:04

Right?

330

: 00:17:04

Because it negates the, oh my god,

the ground level of like, oh well

331

: 00:17:08

these, we were getting pulled in

a hundred different directions.

332

: 00:17:10

So that's why you have to have an opinion.

333

: 00:17:12

But your opinion isn't these

features we're going to do, right?

334

: 00:17:14

Like, Hey, we're going to

go integrate this ABM tool.

335

: 00:17:17

Hey, we're going to go integrate

this new AI tool, right?

336

: 00:17:20

You have to translate

that to stakeholder speak.

337

: 00:17:23

What capabilities are we going

to lock for you by doing this?

338

: 00:17:27

So then how do I create my roadmap?

339

: 00:17:29

So I have an external roadmap.

340

: 00:17:31

Every quarter I got to

be producing something.

341

: 00:17:33

And actually I want to be producing

multiple things a quarter.

342

: 00:17:36

Shiny objects.

343

: 00:17:37

That, to you and me, is table stakes.

344

: 00:17:40

Campaign structure

hierarchy, like, come on.

345

: 00:17:42

But what does that do?

346

: 00:17:44

That allows us to have

visibility and to be able to

347

: 00:17:46

differentiate X event by Y event.

348

: 00:17:50

Is anyone going to disagree with that?

349

: 00:17:51

No, no one's going to disagree with that.

350

: 00:17:53

Is that a win?

351

: 00:17:54

Heck yeah, that's a win.

352

: 00:17:56

Was it very hard?

353

: 00:17:57

We don't have to tell them that, right?

354

: 00:17:59

I keep an external set of roadmap.

355

: 00:18:02

If you hear from my team every

quarter, These are the five

356

: 00:18:06

wins that we had every quarter.

357

: 00:18:07

Different teams are getting their

needs met every single quarter.

358

: 00:18:10

That's awesome.

359

: 00:18:11

What about the stuff, the

non sexy plumbing stuff?

360

: 00:18:14

I keep an internal roadmap.

361

: 00:18:16

Because what that does is an

external roadmap buys me the

362

: 00:18:18

time to do the internal roadmap.

363

: 00:18:20

Have you ever done consent, opt in,

compliance, checkboxes, back end plumbing?

364

: 00:18:24

That stuff is not sexy.

365

: 00:18:26

That stuff takes a long time to

untangle and to go set and go meet

366

: 00:18:30

with legal and deal with lawyers

and all that kind of stuff, right?

367

: 00:18:32

Those are usually like

9, 12, 15 month projects.

368

: 00:18:36

When I release whatever capability in 9

months, in 12 months, and this is, you

369

: 00:18:40

know, what I did in my last company,

We never talked about it until we were

370

: 00:18:45

about to release something like we

are Decreasing loss of consent what I

371

: 00:18:51

call I made this up like leaky consent

capture Doesn't sound pretty good.

372

: 00:18:56

We were accurately capturing it.

373

: 00:18:57

We weren't consent loss We

improved consent loss by 80%.

374

: 00:19:01

Doesn't that sound good?

375

: 00:19:02

I'll plug the talk on Mops the Palooza

where I was speaking with my old

376

: 00:19:05

manager, who's now a CMO, basically the

intent of it was you can go into his

377

: 00:19:09

brain and actually understand what he's

thinking, but what do I do want to know?

378

: 00:19:12

How are the marketers going to feel it?

379

: 00:19:14

That's another kind of saying,

and this is what I keep.

380

: 00:19:17

Reminding my teams, how are our

stakeholders going to feel it?

381

: 00:19:21

And so I want to be cautious.

382

: 00:19:23

Like if I talk about, Hey, we're

going to release, you know,

383

: 00:19:25

we're working on consent, right?

384

: 00:19:26

Like how, how annoying is it when you have

to like working on rebuilding that nurture

385

: 00:19:30

architecture, we're still going, right?

386

: 00:19:32

It's just like, come on.

387

: 00:19:34

You keep saying that you want to

make sure that you're delivering.

388

: 00:19:37

So that's the quick wins,

deliverable roadmap versus the.

389

: 00:19:40

plumbing, architecture, non sexy stuff.

390

: 00:19:43

If you keep them both going,

you can basically time out.

391

: 00:19:46

I throw enough shiny objects to

buy me the 15 months time that

392

: 00:19:50

I need to like do stuff, right?

393

: 00:19:53

And it was really, really

fascinating and interesting to hear.

394

: 00:19:57

In talking to, you know, my mentor,

because we're mops people, the roadmap

395

: 00:20:02

isn't broken and I gotta go fix it.

396

: 00:20:05

And here's what's really interesting,

because he's like, I can't go, I can't

397

: 00:20:09

go to the CEO and get budget and say,

hey, it's broken, go fix it, right?

398

: 00:20:12

Like, because it's gonna be broken.

399

: 00:20:15

Forever, but also like

it's going to be broken.

400

: 00:20:17

Like how many times have you gone

into a company as a mob and like,

401

: 00:20:20

Oh my God, everything's broken.

402

: 00:20:21

Everything's broken.

403

: 00:20:21

Everything's broken.

404

: 00:20:22

We got to go fix everything.

405

: 00:20:23

Yes, that may be true.

406

: 00:20:25

And believe me, I am like,

yes, everything's broken.

407

: 00:20:27

We got to go fix it all.

408

: 00:20:28

Yes, that may be true.

409

: 00:20:30

But your CMO can't go get money for that.

410

: 00:20:32

What he can't go get money

for is, Hey, we're going to

411

: 00:20:35

increase video productivity.

412

: 00:20:37

Hey, we're going to get better quality

leads so that our conversion rates go up.

413

: 00:20:41

It's essentially the same thing.

414

: 00:20:43

The things that we're doing,

you gotta change that language.

415

: 00:20:46

Because he's like, I can

go get you money for that.

416

: 00:20:47

I can't get you money.

417

: 00:20:49

I can maybe go get you money one time.

418

: 00:20:51

One time!

419

: 00:20:53

To go blow, blow up, you know,

like as a consult, right?

420

: 00:20:56

How many migrations have you done?

421

: 00:20:58

But also, how many migrations have you

done where like, It's just user error

422

: 00:21:02

or like it's lack of strategy or it's

process and the people and like where

423

: 00:21:07

you are as a company and tools, a tool,

there's lots of tools that can do the job.

424

: 00:21:11

Some tools are better than others, but.

425

: 00:21:12

Asides from those very rare things

where you're like moving an instance,

426

: 00:21:16

migrating an instance, blowing stuff up.

427

: 00:21:19

We got to focus on like,

what's the business outcome.

428

: 00:21:21

And most of in marketing is all

tied to revenue and pipeline.

429

: 00:21:25

So you just got to do some back

of the envelope calculations.

430

: 00:21:29

How much conversion is

this going to increase?

431

: 00:21:32

What percentage of quality leads?

432

: 00:21:33

And it's a total swag.

433

: 00:21:35

By the time you've done it enough

times, like, you basically can

434

: 00:21:38

gut feel what this feels like.

435

: 00:21:41

And that's a really

valuable skill to have.

436

: 00:21:42

I love the passion and the point

of view that you have on this.

437

: 00:21:45

And do you find that you are taking a

set of technical objectives that you

438

: 00:21:51

know are right for the business and

then translating those upwards to the

439

: 00:21:54

C suite, or do you find, or decision

makers, let's say, in the business

440

: 00:21:57

side, or do you find that you're

taking a set of business priorities,

441

: 00:22:01

bringing them down, translating

them into technical objectives, and

442

: 00:22:04

then retelling that story upwards?

443

: 00:22:05

Where's the initiating point,

or is it a mixture of both ways?

444

: 00:22:08

All day long, bi directional.

445

: 00:22:10

I'm an architect at heart, I see

architecture of systems in my brain,

446

: 00:22:14

I'm sure lots of us nerd out like

that, but I know what a best practices

447

: 00:22:19

architecture looks like and it's

pretty much, I mean, it's generally

448

: 00:22:24

the, following the same principles.

449

: 00:22:26

It needs to be scalable, it needs to

be global, it needs to have a fewest

450

: 00:22:30

amounts of, um, failure points,

you know, just the common things.

451

: 00:22:34

That is my North Star principle

as a MOPS and a MOPS architect.

452

: 00:22:39

Carries with me the same,

wherever company I go to.

453

: 00:22:42

And I think that comes from

my consulting background.

454

: 00:22:44

It goes back to, what

is the CMO's key themes?

455

: 00:22:47

Because that's what

he's promised the board.

456

: 00:22:48

That's what he's promised

his boss, what they are.

457

: 00:22:50

It's your standard tops down

and bottoms up approach, and

458

: 00:22:52

you gotta meet in the middle.

459

: 00:22:54

This is where we're at.

460

: 00:22:56

This is what the key, um, are, right?

461

: 00:22:59

Like, we're a big Adobe tech stack.

462

: 00:23:01

Okay, where is it at?

463

: 00:23:03

This is what we gotta do, and it's a of

where we're gonna meet in the middle.

464

: 00:23:07

And translating back down because I still

have to translate back down to my team.

465

: 00:23:11

I still have to direct my team

on where their priorities are.

466

: 00:23:15

And like, it's not that the priorities

change every day, but it is agile.

467

: 00:23:18

It's we got to move this up.

468

: 00:23:19

We're going to move up

our X, Y, Z feature.

469

: 00:23:22

This is bubbled up in Q1.

470

: 00:23:23

We thought it was Q2.

471

: 00:23:25

based on this conversation.

472

: 00:23:26

My job.

473

: 00:23:28

As a marketing operations leader, it's a

literally be that translate up and down.

474

: 00:23:32

I'm sitting in some meeting.

475

: 00:23:33

Oh, I hear the words.

476

: 00:23:34

I'm like, Oh, I can project

where they want to go.

477

: 00:23:36

And it goes back down to my team

into a technical and tactical way.

478

: 00:23:41

Assess audit wherever we are,

bubble it and translate it back

479

: 00:23:45

up to executive leadership to

provide clarity on where we're at.

480

: 00:23:49

This is the tech debt.

481

: 00:23:51

That we have, this is how

we're going to solve for it.

482

: 00:23:53

I need this much money.

483

: 00:23:55

If you want it in this timeframe,

my job is just to provide

484

: 00:23:58

clarity, translating both ways.

485

: 00:24:00

That's really my job.

486

: 00:24:01

And that's how Marketing Operations

becomes that strategic partner.

487

: 00:24:05

My other mentors used to say,

like, We're doing strategery.

488

: 00:24:09

Whatever that means.

489

: 00:24:10

Right?

490

: 00:24:11

You know, that's the crazy thing about

being a Marketing Ops leader, and

491

: 00:24:15

I'm not sure who else in marketing

or even in the business has to deal

492

: 00:24:19

with this, but like, you have to

collaborate with the CMO to some degree

493

: 00:24:22

on strategy, have input there, ideally.

494

: 00:24:25

You need to then do the translation that

you just mentioned on a technical level.

495

: 00:24:30

You need to be an expert

project manager and scoper.

496

: 00:24:33

And then you need to break that

down for your team of whatever size.

497

: 00:24:37

And help them envision

where they need to go.

498

: 00:24:40

And that's a pretty deep stack of

abilities and talents that you need to

499

: 00:24:44

always have switched on all the time.

500

: 00:24:47

And I think you did a really nice job

just hitting all of the highlights

501

: 00:24:50

of the key skill sets that you need.

502

: 00:24:52

Every leader isn't going to

have all those skill sets.

503

: 00:24:55

That's the inventory of skill sets

that you need to have on your team.

504

: 00:24:58

So then you got to figure out which

ones you have and then which you got

505

: 00:25:01

to go higher into to build that team.

506

: 00:25:03

So that's why I have a

product manager on my team.

507

: 00:25:07

Who can help me keep the things running?

508

: 00:25:10

I myself can do a lot of

the scoping because of my

509

: 00:25:14

consulting background, right?

510

: 00:25:16

I can feel about how many hours this

is going to take or what skill sets we

511

: 00:25:20

need or, you know, scope, like this is

in scope, out of scope, scope, creep,

512

: 00:25:23

all of those things, like if you've been

a consultant and you've had that, but

513

: 00:25:26

you need those skill sets as a leader.

514

: 00:25:28

So you can direct the team

to where they need to go.

515

: 00:25:31

I'm a big fan of

CliftonStrengths, that profile.

516

: 00:25:34

And so mine is strategic and

futuristic, which is having that

517

: 00:25:38

one to three year plan, having

that vision and being strategic.

518

: 00:25:41

So I'm constantly in there, like moving

everything around like Tetris in my head.

519

: 00:25:45

I am a terrible project manager.

520

: 00:25:48

Absolutely awful.

521

: 00:25:51

Everything lives in my head, so I need

someone to extract it out of my brain.

522

: 00:25:54

So I hire other people who can do that.

523

: 00:25:57

So you say literally in your head,

but do you have a whiteboard?

524

: 00:25:59

Do you have a chart somewhere, a diagram?

525

: 00:26:02

Like, or is it really this

one to three year vision?

526

: 00:26:04

Like, do you document it in any way?

527

: 00:26:05

Yes.

528

: 00:26:06

It is in my head, and my product manager

pulls it out of me, and he makes it.

529

: 00:26:12

At a smaller company, When I, when you

don't have the luxury of having that,

530

: 00:26:16

then it should absolutely be documented.

531

: 00:26:18

And I don't know if it was just at

one of my companies, a term, but we

532

: 00:26:21

had this term called a walking deck.

533

: 00:26:23

When I come into a new company,

I have a library of my walking

534

: 00:26:26

decks that I need to go make.

535

: 00:26:28

So there's my library of

things I need to go pull.

536

: 00:26:30

For example, what is

the three year roadmap?

537

: 00:26:32

What is my quarterly?

538

: 00:26:33

What is my yearly plan?

539

: 00:26:34

And this is going to hold true for

whatever level you are actually.

540

: 00:26:37

So you might as well start learning

this now, because it'll take you

541

: 00:26:39

10 years to go polish the skillset.

542

: 00:26:41

You have to present what you're doing.

543

: 00:26:43

You don't have to have a director

title, a VP title to be strategic.

544

: 00:26:46

But like, I always have a walking

deck instead of saying like,

545

: 00:26:48

Jess, what's your one year plan?

546

: 00:26:50

Hey, what are we delivering next month?

547

: 00:26:52

Hey, what are we delivering this quarter?

548

: 00:26:53

Oh, what are your wins?

549

: 00:26:55

Think about it for even if an

individual, think about how many

550

: 00:26:57

meetings you have with your stakeholders.

551

: 00:26:59

I want to do this.

552

: 00:27:00

No, here's my plan.

553

: 00:27:01

I start with what's the library

of decks that I need to have.

554

: 00:27:04

I try to have like my yearly vision

plan deck, my quarterly planning deck.

555

: 00:27:09

What are the wins quarter?

556

: 00:27:11

What are we planning to do next quarter?

557

: 00:27:12

Right?

558

: 00:27:13

Look back, look forward.

559

: 00:27:14

What about for like a brag blog when

you want to talk about annual reviews?

560

: 00:27:19

What about promotions?

561

: 00:27:21

You got to go present at

an all hands or an offsite.

562

: 00:27:24

Those are all the same decks.

563

: 00:27:25

If you think about it, change

in mindset, flip it around.

564

: 00:27:28

It's less work, right?

565

: 00:27:29

Cause you don't have to go make five

different decks and you're always ready.

566

: 00:27:32

To hear you talk about these things,

a, the way that you communicate.

567

: 00:27:35

You're going to have to be able

to express yourself around it.

568

: 00:27:38

There's a confidence there.

569

: 00:27:39

There's a charisma there.

570

: 00:27:41

Is that something that That's just

how you communicate, or have you

571

: 00:27:45

had to make yourself develop that?

572

: 00:27:47

Because I had to push myself to do that.

573

: 00:27:49

I'm comfortable, like, deep in the guts

of the machine, like, putting wires,

574

: 00:27:53

switching them around, banging things

with a hammer, to be able to come up,

575

: 00:27:57

talk about something that's a shiny

object that is useful to people, but it's

576

: 00:28:01

like, oh, I know it only takes X minutes.

577

: 00:28:03

We don't consider it a big deal.

578

: 00:28:05

And managing that translation into

your brain constantly around how other

579

: 00:28:08

people are going to perceive things,

and how you perceive them, and just

580

: 00:28:11

having that form of self expression.

581

: 00:28:13

How have you managed to cultivate them?

582

: 00:28:16

I think that's a fantastic question.

583

: 00:28:18

I'll split those into two parts.

584

: 00:28:19

There is, I love presenting.

585

: 00:28:22

I have been an oral presentation

consultant when I was in grad school.

586

: 00:28:27

I went through a course where it was

actually teaching oral presentation.

587

: 00:28:31

So it's just something

that I'm passionate about.

588

: 00:28:33

I'm in the minority of the people where

public speaking is a phobia that's

589

: 00:28:37

actually higher than fear of death.

590

: 00:28:41

So there's that piece.

591

: 00:28:43

But that's completely separate

than things like imposter syndrome.

592

: 00:28:47

And I think those are

two very separate things.

593

: 00:28:50

All these things that I've talked about

are basically learned through experience.

594

: 00:28:54

A lot of experience.

595

: 00:28:56

There are a lot of mistakes.

596

: 00:28:57

A lot of trying and trial and error.

597

: 00:28:59

And this is where it's about the

community that you're a part of,

598

: 00:29:03

this community that you're fostering.

599

: 00:29:04

It's about the really amazing tight

knit marketing operations community

600

: 00:29:09

that you and I have been a part

of, that we help each other out.

601

: 00:29:12

How many times have I said,

well, my mentor taught me

602

: 00:29:14

this, my mentor taught me that.

603

: 00:29:16

Every company has a board of directors.

604

: 00:29:18

They're there to give guidance, hold

accountability, and to give advice.

605

: 00:29:22

Outside perspective, and that

is no different in your career.

606

: 00:29:27

So the same philosophy of you

really need to build a board of

607

: 00:29:31

directors for you and your career.

608

: 00:29:33

Getting a mentor is good.

609

: 00:29:35

CMOs go take classes.

610

: 00:29:36

You don't just all of a sudden

wake up and like, Oh, I'm so

611

: 00:29:39

knowledgeable about that X, Y, and Z.

612

: 00:29:41

Just like anything else, it's a continual

learning and growing opportunity.

613

: 00:29:44

It's being very thoughtful about

building a set of mentors for you.

614

: 00:29:51

It's a mentor that's going to champion

for you and who you are in your career

615

: 00:29:56

and challenge you to think differently.

616

: 00:29:59

All right, like one of my

mentors said, like, when you're

617

: 00:30:01

interviewing for the job, what is

your next next job going to be?

618

: 00:30:05

I'm like, I don't understand.

619

: 00:30:06

I'm trying to figure out what I'm going

to do, like, in the next couple weeks.

620

: 00:30:09

If you're asking me what my next next

job is, if you know what your next

621

: 00:30:14

next job is going to be, Then you can

identify what's the skill set that you

622

: 00:30:19

got to pick up along the way to get you

there So then that will inform you what

623

: 00:30:24

your next job is and then you walk me

through like different scenarios, right?

624

: 00:30:28

And this is when I was coming out of

consulting and back to in house and i'm

625

: 00:30:31

like, I don't know what I want to do

and so Your set of mentors is going to

626

: 00:30:36

challenge you to think differently, right?

627

: 00:30:37

Like, a mentor isn't just here

like, Hey, let me give you advice.

628

: 00:30:40

Let me tell you how I did it.

629

: 00:30:41

So you can hear a bunch

of different stories.

630

: 00:30:43

Cause that's typically

what happens, right?

631

: 00:30:45

Justin, I want to hear about

how you were successful.

632

: 00:30:48

And then you'll go and talk to them.

633

: 00:30:49

Don't come and talk to me.

634

: 00:30:49

I'm like, Hey, I want to hear

just how you were successful.

635

: 00:30:52

And we're trying to collect

stories to data points.

636

: 00:30:55

Well, if I collect red,

orange, yellow, blue, green.

637

: 00:30:58

Then I can like figure

out what my choices are.

638

: 00:31:00

I'm like actually let's flip that on its

head You want to find mentors that are

639

: 00:31:04

going to challenge who you are and to

help you grow and give you exactly what

640

: 00:31:08

you need And being intentional about

creating that board of directors and

641

: 00:31:12

your board of director mentors are going

to change as your career grows You're

642

: 00:31:15

going to add some you're going to drop

some Some of them will stay with you,

643

: 00:31:19

some of them are going to be the right

mentor at that time, the right person

644

: 00:31:23

during the right season, there's always

a season, and it's constantly evolving

645

: 00:31:26

and changing, but that's one of the

key things, and, and you know what, the

646

: 00:31:30

experience is going to teach you a lot,

because you're not going to go there

647

: 00:31:34

knowing everything, and I remember, you

know, in the Marketo Fearless 50, we got

648

: 00:31:38

mentorship and stuff like that, right?

649

: 00:31:39

Like, and I always was like, how

do you get executive experience?

650

: 00:31:43

How do you get the skill to become, like,

an executive presence, and like, how do

651

: 00:31:46

I Be more strategic, like an executive.

652

: 00:31:49

We've all been there.

653

: 00:31:51

And I asked that question and again,

one of my mentors just kind of do it.

654

: 00:31:57

And I'm like, what do you mean?

655

: 00:31:59

You just kind of do it.

656

: 00:31:59

I don't know how to do it.

657

: 00:32:00

Three years later, I was

like, Oh, I understand.

658

: 00:32:04

You just kind of do it.

659

: 00:32:05

You just figure it out.

660

: 00:32:07

Okay.

661

: 00:32:07

All right.

662

: 00:32:08

Now I understand.

663

: 00:32:09

It didn't really make

a whole lot of sense.

664

: 00:32:11

Cause I want to tell you, you just

kind of do it and you're going to.

665

: 00:32:14

Listen and look at me like I don't

understand what you're saying.

666

: 00:32:17

So you just kind of do it

because that is a byproduct.

667

: 00:32:21

And I use the same analogy.

668

: 00:32:22

I live in the Bay Area, Half Moon Bay.

669

: 00:32:24

They have a pumpkin festival, right?

670

: 00:32:25

Like whoever grows the biggest pumpkin.

671

: 00:32:27

So if you're a pumpkin farmer and

you're trying to grow the biggest

672

: 00:32:29

pumpkin, are you staring at the pumpkin

and trying to will it to grow bigger?

673

: 00:32:33

No, you're not trying to do that.

674

: 00:32:35

Data points.

675

: 00:32:36

You're trying to like make sure the

soil has the right amount of nutrients.

676

: 00:32:39

You're trying to make sure

it has the right sunlight.

677

: 00:32:41

You're trying to make sure it

has the right water, whatever

678

: 00:32:43

to make a pumpkin grow bigger.

679

: 00:32:44

I'm not a farmer and I

don't have a green thumb.

680

: 00:32:46

I killed all my tomato plants.

681

: 00:32:47

So please don't ask me to grow anything.

682

: 00:32:49

But you're not trying to

will it to grow bigger.

683

: 00:32:51

You're trying to do all the things,

the byproduct is for it to grow bigger.

684

: 00:32:54

So how do you get executive presence and

strategy of doing all the things that

685

: 00:33:00

I just talked about and it will come.

686

: 00:33:02

Do you, with the experience you've had,

the frameworks you've developed, the

687

: 00:33:07

methodology, you know, someone listening

to this be like, all right, Jess.

688

: 00:33:10

She's got to figure it out.

689

: 00:33:11

And if she went and started at a

new company tomorrow, she comes in,

690

: 00:33:14

she's got her walking deck, she's

got her system, like, she's on lock.

691

: 00:33:18

Do you still feel imposter syndrome

going into a new, you know, first

692

: 00:33:21

day on the job at Cloudflare?

693

: 00:33:22

Do you feel that?

694

: 00:33:23

Or does it dissipate with the frameworks

and the experiences that you've developed?

695

: 00:33:27

Think about anything.

696

: 00:33:29

If you've done something five, six, seven

times, it always gets easier, right?

697

: 00:33:33

I'm a yoga teacher.

698

: 00:33:34

I try to remind myself.

699

: 00:33:36

If I go and take a Orange Theory

class, You're back to beginner.

700

: 00:33:41

So great!

701

: 00:33:42

As what I do, and the things

that I've done, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

702

: 00:33:46

times, yeah, I feel pretty good.

703

: 00:33:48

Guess what?

704

: 00:33:49

The next level?

705

: 00:33:51

Oooh!

706

: 00:33:53

I don't know how to run a

cross company wide initiative,

707

: 00:33:56

or whatever the new thing is.

708

: 00:33:58

We're always going to

encounter new things.

709

: 00:34:01

We're always going to be

a beginner at something.

710

: 00:34:04

The time duration of like the

freak out period gets shorter.

711

: 00:34:07

I don't have all the answers today.

712

: 00:34:08

I got friends, I got this

amazing network of people.

713

: 00:34:12

I'll go call y'all up and be

like, I've never done this

714

: 00:34:14

before, can someone help me?

715

: 00:34:16

Of course!

716

: 00:34:17

I think you were the one that

gave me the Wokato ticket.

717

: 00:34:20

The free ticket to Wokato.

718

: 00:34:22

I don't know anything about that.

719

: 00:34:23

Thank you so much!

720

: 00:34:24

I went to the conference and I

learned all kinds of new things.

721

: 00:34:27

Things that were completely over my head.

722

: 00:34:28

If I had to go dive deeper to build a

roadmap, do I know how to do it today?

723

: 00:34:33

Do I know who to go call?

724

: 00:34:34

I'm going to call you and be like,

Hey, who can you put me in touch

725

: 00:34:37

with that can help me learn this?

726

: 00:34:40

What it does is it

teaches you how to learn.

727

: 00:34:42

And do I still get

freaked out about stuff?

728

: 00:34:44

It's like, deep breath, deep breath.

729

: 00:34:47

Emotional regulation is one of

the top skills that you're going

730

: 00:34:49

to need to have as a leader.

731

: 00:34:51

Deep breath.

732

: 00:34:52

Do I know how to figure it out?

733

: 00:34:55

I know how to figure this out.

734

: 00:34:56

I know who to go call.

735

: 00:34:57

I know who to get people to

go introduce me to people.

736

: 00:35:00

I don't have any problems

asking the dumb questions.

737

: 00:35:02

I'm like, Hi, I don't

know anything about this.

738

: 00:35:04

Can you help me and explain

to me like how this works?

739

: 00:35:07

I'm taking on web ops

and ad operations now.

740

: 00:35:10

That's new.

741

: 00:35:11

First time I'll figure it out because

I have this amazing community.

742

: 00:35:14

So It's a beautiful place to end it.

743

: 00:35:17

Jess, you're amazing.

744

: 00:35:18

I love hearing about this.

745

: 00:35:20

I want to chat more in the

future, but thank you so much for

746

: 00:35:23

coming on and sharing all this.

747

: 00:35:25

Thank you so much for having me.

748

: 00:35:26

It's my pleasure.

749

: 00:35:27

I hope I have changed one life

today, and that's success.

750

: 00:35:31

Speak again soon.

751

: 00:35:34

Hey everyone, I want to

invite you over to the RebOps.

752

: 00:35:37

fm Substack community, where

you can sign up to get rough

753

: 00:35:40

transcripts, show notes, longer form

articles, and other bonus content.

754

: 00:35:44

Just head over to RebOps.

755

: 00:35:45

fm slash subscribe to get free access.

756

: 00:35:49

I'd also love to know what you thought

of the episode, and to hear suggestions

757

: 00:35:52

for topics you want to learn about.

758

: 00:35:54

Feel free to leave a comment on Substack.

759

: 00:35:56

Or send me an email at justinatrevops.

760

: 00:35:59

fm.

761

: 00:36:00

Thanks for listening.