The Journey to VP of Marketing Ops - Kimi Corrigan

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

today.

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We're joined by Kimmy Corrigan.

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She's led marketing ops teams for companies like duo security, Cisco, whiz,

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expel, and most recently data robot, where she is currently vice president

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of marketing operations and strategy.

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And we don't often see VP level marketing ops roles and this is a position

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Kimmy's actually held a few times.

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So we'll get into what does it look like to lead a mops team at that scale?

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What does it mean to have both ops and strategy in your mandate?

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I think that's another really interesting topic.

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Mops at small companies versus, you know, 90, 000 person behemoths like Cisco.

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And a whole lot more, Kimmy, welcome to the show.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:00:51

Thank you for having me.

Justin Norris: 00:00:53

It's a real pleasure to speak to you.

Justin Norris: 00:00:54

And actually, even before we get into it, you are one of those people, you know,

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we've spoken a few times now, but like, kind of like, I feel like I've known you

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for 10 years without really knowing you super well, like from swimming in the

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small Marketo pond, we've both been in.

Justin Norris: 00:01:06

curious, What was your entry point into that universe?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:08

I, well, cause I've been in it for so long.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:10

I was in it from when it wasn't marketing operations.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:13

It was just marketing automation.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:15

so the abbreviated version was, I was just a marketing coordinator

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at a company a long time ago.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:20

And my boss at the time taught me how to run a Salesforce report,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:23

very simple Salesforce report.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:25

And it just kind of blew my mind of like, Okay.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:28

So we have this system with all these people and I can just

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query it in this certain way.

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And that opened up my brain to just operational systems in general.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:37

And at the time we had silver pop as a marketing automation

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tool.

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So he said, Hey, we don't really have anyone owning the system.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:44

Do you want to kind of like try to figure it out?

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So I did, I dived into that.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:48

And then we merged with a competitor who had Marketo.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:51

So we had to do a little bit of a bake off of like, should we keep

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:53

silver pop or should we keep marketo?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:56

Luckily, we landed on Marketo.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:01:58

So from there it was just making the move of our data and processes

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:02

from Silverpop to Marketo.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:04

So that was an interesting experience.

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And then from there, I just started learning about other companies who

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:10

were trying to do the same thing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:11

So I moved to another company who had Silverpop and wanted to move to a

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:15

new, more modern tool called Marketo.

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So they said, Hey, it seems like you've done this before.

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Do you want to come do it for us?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:21

And that was the first time I decided to take a role that

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:24

was All marketing automation.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:26

It was a much bigger company than the one I had come from.

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And I had that moment of like, is do I really want to specialize in this one

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really tiny specific thing that feels like career suicide, but it was a company that

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:38

was like everyone wanted to work there.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:40

It's a local place in Cleveland that had slides and the diner

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and like the onsite daycare.

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It was like the Google S experience.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:46

So I was like, well, whatever, I just want to get into that company.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:48

And then I'll go figure out what I'm going to do there.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:51

And then many years later, here I am still in this world and now

Kimi Corrigan: 00:02:56

it's a whole different world.

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But yeah, like most of us, no one wanted to do something.

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And I said, I would do it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:01

And then it led to this.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:02

Incredible career so far.

Justin Norris: 00:03:04

curious.

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I remember during my very first marketing automation evaluation was looking at

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players like silver pop or like Manticore like software that doesn't exist anymore.

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What was silver pop?

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Like, I never actually used it.

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This is random and probably irrelevant to most people, but I'm just curious,

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like what an early generation marketing automation platform was

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:23

All I really remember was the email capability of it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:27

and that's no shade to Silverpop.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:29

I'm sure it had much more functionality at the time that I just didn't even

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have the brain power to understand.

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Like, I don't know what the lead processing power was or any of

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the operational stuff at the time.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:40

It was just like, an email automation system for us.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:43

And that was still a very impressive use case to utilize at a company as well as.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:49

To learn and be able to own like I'm the person that knows how to do this behind

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the scenes that was very impressive at the time, which, looking back now that says

Kimi Corrigan: 00:03:58

how long I've been in the game here, but, now I always I'm just like, Hey, marketing

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:03

operations is not email marketing because it still has that stigma.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:06

I think, but back then, like, That stigma was something to be proud of.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:10

So that's all I really remember about the platform because it was so long ago.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:14

But I remember at the time being like, I am so technical.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:18

This is incredible.

Justin Norris: 00:04:20

I know exactly what you mean.

Justin Norris: 00:04:21

Maybe we'll have a long time silver pop user in the audience who will

Justin Norris: 00:04:24

write in and, uh, educate us.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:25

I do remember going to like one silver pop.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:28

user group type conference experience.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:30

It was in like a very small ballroom somewhere.

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And just being like, I'm on the forefront of marketing technology.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:04:36

This is incredible.

Justin Norris: 00:04:38

So that vibe, I mean, I know exactly what you mean.

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And I think for the first five years of my career in Marketo,

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it was like, Oh, you're Marketo.

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And like, if you're a Marketo champion, that was like a really big deal.

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Like you just, you know how to use it.

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Nothing cooler

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than that.

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And it's, not to say that it's not cool or not an achievement today, but

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I think back then it had a certain cachet and a certain like, whoa, you

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really know how to do this dark art that other people don't understand.

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Just like what you said.

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And then I feel that marketing operations has changed, like you mentioned, but it

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still has its roots in that pedigree.

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Sometimes I feel that's a liability.

Justin Norris: 00:05:14

Do you, you feel that in terms of being able to expand beyond it?

Justin Norris: 00:05:17

Like it can be limiting

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:18

It can be, but also, I'm the first one to be like

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:21

marketing operations is not email marketing, but email marketing

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:24

is still marketing operations.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:25

Like I still have people on my team that are.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:28

Fully responsible for building and sending emails and making sure the lists are right

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:32

and making sure we're executing correctly.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:34

So I'm also careful not to like poopoo it too much because it's like, it's still,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:40

right in the middle of my responsibilities of what my team is charged with.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:43

So, I think there's just different ways to look at it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:46

so I try to not get too big for my britches when I, when it's

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:49

like, where did we come from?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:05:50

Cause it's still part of our to do's every single day.

Justin Norris: 00:05:53

mine too.

Justin Norris: 00:05:54

And that is a good point.

Justin Norris: 00:05:55

So when you, think about that scope conversation, like someone new joins

Justin Norris: 00:05:58

your team, what's the mission statement that you give them about, like, this

Justin Norris: 00:06:01

is what mops does at data robot or whatever company you happen to be at.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:05

Yeah, at the simplest, there's a couple ways I describe it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:08

in some ways, like I've had my kid, he's older now, so he can understand a little

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:11

bit more about when he was younger, when I would try to explain what I'm like,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:13

uh, I put together puzzles all day.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:17

With a bunch of missing pieces.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:20

that's one way of describing it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:21

But when someone's joining my team, like, really, our charter is like to

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make everyone's job easier and make the output better, my team should

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be making everyone's job easier.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:34

Maybe they don't feel that way as they're learning.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:35

The process isn't partnering with us at first and their output should

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be better because we're involved.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:41

because we see everything we're involved in.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:43

Every area of marketing and cross functionally we are involved in strategy.

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We're involved in creativity.

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We're involved in tactical, operational data and reporting.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:53

Like there's just, no limit to what marketing ops could or should

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be involved in in my opinion.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:06:59

So, joining my team is like be open and be ready because who knows where

Kimi Corrigan: 00:07:04

this adventure is going to take us

Justin Norris: 00:07:06

I think that's an elegant.

Justin Norris: 00:07:09

one of the reasons why I often focus on like definitions in my own

Justin Norris: 00:07:13

role in these conversations that I have is because it comes back to

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like, what does great look like?

Justin Norris: 00:07:17

Like, how do you know when you're doing a good job?

Justin Norris: 00:07:19

Like sellers know they're doing a good job if they hit their quota

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marketers, you know, if they hit their pipeline target, whatever.

Justin Norris: 00:07:24

And for us, it's kind of like the work is never done.

Justin Norris: 00:07:27

how do you tell if you're doing a good job or if your team is doing a good job?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:07:31

I can tell my team is doing a good job.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:07:34

because they keep Showing up and wanting to be a part of it because

Kimi Corrigan: 00:07:37

I think as ops people, regardless of which spectrum of an ops role you

Kimi Corrigan: 00:07:41

fall in, if you're not having fun and you're not feeling accomplished and not

Kimi Corrigan: 00:07:48

feeling like you're being effective.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:07:50

You're likely going to move on or check out because the work is so varied.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:07:55

The work is so challenging sometimes, even just like the communication and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:00

getting people to understand complicated things in layman's terms for their role.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:05

If you don't feel effective pretty consistently, like you will burn out.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:09

Like I don't think ops people generally burn out from like workload

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:12

or amount of We're coming in.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:15

It's feeling ineffective on a regular basis that burns us out.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:20

So I think my team is doing a good job, or I know they're doing a job

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:23

when they're engaged, when they're excited about the work, when they're

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:26

able to get all the work done because our processes have become effective

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:30

and the way we work across teams and organizations has become effective.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:33

So that's not a KPI of are we having fun check?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:37

Yes or no.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:38

But that's how I try to keep a pulse on how my team's doing, because if they're

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:42

feeling effective, that means what we're trying to do across all of these

Kimi Corrigan: 00:08:45

different areas is working generally.

Justin Norris: 00:08:48

It's not as strange of a KPI as it might seem on

Justin Norris: 00:08:51

the surface about having fun.

Justin Norris: 00:08:52

think at least if you're wired the right way, because I know for me like fun at

Justin Norris: 00:08:55

work is exactly like what you said, like things are working, it's a well oiled

Justin Norris: 00:08:59

machine, it's like that yes feeling.

Justin Norris: 00:09:02

That's a pretty good indicator that you have like healthy systems around you.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:06

And, you know, we don't have full control, like,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:08

Putting out a fire with campaign ops today because we have forms down in

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:11

Japan and we don't really know why.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:13

And there's some field not hitting the midpoint and it's not fun every day.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:18

but you know, if he's partnering with the right people internally to help

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:20

resolve this and everyone's jiving and understanding what to do and how we're

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:23

going to solve this problem and we have a path to get to the end of it, that is fun.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:28

I mean, I don't want our forms to be down anywhere, but things

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are always going to go wrong.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:32

And like, My favorite moments in the history with all of the wonderful

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people that have been on my team are when those crisis of systems or data

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or something came crashing down and we rallied and like work through it and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:46

had a good sense of humor about it and trusted each other like Those are my

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favorite memories of my career so far of like, when we just kind of pulled

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:53

together and got through, Marketo being down or a form crashing or something

Kimi Corrigan: 00:09:59

that we did ourselves to inflict pain.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:02

But then we're like, that's okay.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:03

We can fix it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:04

We just need an hour and some grace from our BDR team and we can fix this.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:08

those are my favorite moments because they're, they're always going to come.

Justin Norris: 00:10:11

I've really been thinking a lot about this exact thing lately.

Justin Norris: 00:10:14

And the problems themselves are never actually what stresses me at work.

Justin Norris: 00:10:20

if everybody is aligned, just like you described, and then there's,

Justin Norris: 00:10:23

situations where it's like, there's a problem, but then there's a second

Justin Norris: 00:10:26

order problem, which is like the people surrounding the problem.

Justin Norris: 00:10:29

And whether it's politics or misunderstanding or like, Oh no, like

Justin Norris: 00:10:33

you have to, manage fallout internally.

Justin Norris: 00:10:36

That is not fun, at least for me.

Justin Norris: 00:10:38

And what do you do?

Justin Norris: 00:10:40

Is it luck of the draw?

Justin Norris: 00:10:41

Do you do things as a leader to forge those connections, to build that trust?

Justin Norris: 00:10:45

Like I don't have that fully figured out yet myself.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:47

you know, I've been at my new company for the past six months.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:50

So, you know, I'm just getting through that first period of time,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:53

getting to know everyone cross functionally and how things work.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:56

And I'm still trying to uncover a few areas.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:10:58

And I've had to really lean in on this area more than I have before, just

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:02

because, you all companies are different.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:03

They're organized differently.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:05

Racey charts are different at every organization, especially

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:07

when it comes to system ownership.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:09

So this is like probably been my biggest challenge over the last six months of

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:13

like, you really need to push yourself to figure out how to navigate getting what,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:19

you know, needs to be done, prioritize when it's outside of your control and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:23

actually you have less than 50 percent of the control maybe, and these other

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:26

teams hold more control than you.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:28

And, that can be.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:30

Initially, very frustrating for operators who have had such autonomy and other

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:33

experiences, but then just taking a deep breath and being like, okay,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:38

well, this is the learning I'm doing at this experience at this, stop on my

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:42

journey of my career of maybe instead of learning some really interesting,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:49

operational system use case over the past six months, I'm learning how to yeah.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:54

Work more effectively in situations where I have less control over the outcome of

Kimi Corrigan: 00:11:58

my systems and processes that I'm used to having, and it took me a few months to,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:02

like, open my mind to that of like, okay.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:06

this is what's happening now, and this is what you have to figure out.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:09

So for me, I'm navigating that right now.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:11

So I don't have any, super strong advice, but for me, it's just been

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:15

being more patient, talking to my cross functional partners more

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:18

face to face on zoom or whatever.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:22

and just trying to understand their point of view, even if I

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:25

still don't think the point of view is the longterm solution for the

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:27

organization and how we want to operate.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:30

That doesn't mean I can't try to sit.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:32

Patiently and understand it so that when I try to suggest change, they

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:37

understand where I'm coming from versus me come in and saying, actually, this

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:40

is how we're going to do it because this is how we should be doing it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:43

It's like, well, still think my suggestion is good, but maybe I

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:47

don't get to get to point a directly.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:49

Maybe I have to make three stops on phases along the way and be more patient.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:53

So I'm just trying to spend more time with people be more understanding.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:12:58

And then that comes with a new set of experiences for me as in my career

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:02

of I now have to figure out how to communicate to my manager how to reset

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:07

expectations, even though the reason I'm resetting expectations are outside of

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:12

my control without just saying, well, it's because they won't do it quickly

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:16

or because it's not a priority for them because that's not fair or productive.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:19

So it's figuring out how do I navigate that communication and reprioritization.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:25

Even though it's not what I want to be doing, and at the end of the day,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:31

remember, and I remind my team of this often is, there are plenty of people

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:36

doing this every day, but it's not us.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:37

We're not saving lives.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:38

no one is going to.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:40

Die today because we don't get this ticket closed So, let's just take

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:43

a deep breath and figure out what can we do to still feel effective

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:48

in moments of feeling ineffective.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:50

It's probably something smaller, more insulated to our team

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:53

or within a marketing team.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:54

Can we lean in and help in a different area just to get that?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:13:57

Effectiveness feeling and keep the fun vibes up as we talked about.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:01

so it's a lot of just reconfiguring week to week, month to month,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:04

as we navigate, like how to work differently than we expected to work,

Justin Norris: 00:14:09

I think what you described as maybe one of the biggest things.

Justin Norris: 00:14:12

I've certainly experienced it, too.

Justin Norris: 00:14:13

That kind of hits you upside the head as you move more into a leadership role

Justin Norris: 00:14:17

where initially you're like, I'm solving problems and systems or in process

Justin Norris: 00:14:21

or if you're a consultant, people are coming to you and the problems already

Justin Norris: 00:14:23

defined and you're like, just fill this hole with a solution, which is very

Justin Norris: 00:14:27

satisfying and all of a sudden you're in a scenario where like alignment is

Justin Norris: 00:14:30

the problem and navigating people is the problem and like trust and relationships

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:35

like now looking back six months ago, these people

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:38

didn't know me from, a stranger.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:40

So I'm coming in hot.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:41

Like we got a new go to market strategy.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:43

We got new systems.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:44

We got new processes.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:44

Let's go.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:45

we're here.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:46

And they were kind of like, wait, hold on a second.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:49

and I found that very frustrating just because I wanted to feel effective.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:51

I wanted to come in and provide value.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:53

and that's how I tried to spend my first six months.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:14:56

And then I had to reconfigure my expectations of how am I going to add

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:00

value to this organization overall?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:02

And how am I going to add value to my team day to day when they aren't

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:06

able to move as fast as they thought they were going to be able to move?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:09

It's been a completely different experience than I expected to have

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:12

coming in, but also super valuable.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:14

I'm learning a lot and I do feel like I'm leveling up my communication.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:20

in the role that I'm in,

Justin Norris: 00:15:21

for what it's where that sounds like you have a

Justin Norris: 00:15:23

super healthy perspective on it.

Justin Norris: 00:15:25

And like, I feel you, but it's like when that ball goes on and you're

Justin Norris: 00:15:30

like, Oh, wait a second, like, this is the learning right now.

Justin Norris: 00:15:32

I should stop fighting this.

Justin Norris: 00:15:33

actually, this is the thing that I need to do.

Justin Norris: 00:15:36

that feels like the unlock moment I've noticed as well.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:38

I have to show up every day.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:40

I want to keep getting the paycheck, every time it comes in, like, I still

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:43

want to feel good and valuable here.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:45

So like.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:46

what other choice do I have?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:47

I can just keep fighting it and being like, stop my fee of like, well, we

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:50

could be doing this other thing, but it's just like, okay, but we're not.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:54

So what am I going to do about it?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:55

Am I going to be upset?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:57

I don't want to be upset.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:15:58

I'm generally a pretty positive.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:01

Like, let's just have fun.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:02

Let's do some good work kind of person.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:04

So you just have to find a different way to like, get that value for yourself and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:08

your team, as well as providing value for the organization besides frustration,

Justin Norris: 00:16:12

So it seems to me that what you've described there in a lot of

Justin Norris: 00:16:14

ways is people wonder like, what does it mean to be like a director or a VP?

Justin Norris: 00:16:18

And a lot of it is not like you're like learning more about systems.

Justin Norris: 00:16:22

Like you're dealing with this sort of thing

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:24

of negotiation, a lot of politics.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:26

I don't mean that in a negative way.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:28

but it's a skill set that you have to hone through situations you can't

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:32

take A class, you can't read a Harvard business review and be like, okay,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:36

now I know how to negotiate and reprioritize through these situations.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:41

I just try to be grateful for the experience that I am and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:16:45

yeah, learning and trying to encourage everyone else to do the

Justin Norris: 00:16:48

should be documentation.

Justin Norris: 00:16:49

We need a knowledge base.

Justin Norris: 00:16:51

So, coming back to this, notion of like the VP marketing ops, like if we're being

Justin Norris: 00:16:54

candid, there aren't that many of those.

Justin Norris: 00:16:57

positions out there, I probably know like a dozen VPs of marketing ops.

Justin Norris: 00:17:01

You don't see a lot coming up on job boards and it, does worry me a bit for

Justin Norris: 00:17:04

people that are marketing operators that don't necessarily want to go a

Justin Norris: 00:17:07

rev ops path or go back into marketing.

Justin Norris: 00:17:09

Are you in a career called a sack, like not that being an executive is the be all

Justin Norris: 00:17:13

and end all for everybody, but for those that want to, any thoughts on this, like

Justin Norris: 00:17:17

how you've gotten into this role or what you see in terms of this role being rare.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:20

I think you just have to ask for it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:22

been a VP of marketing ops twice.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:25

and both those situations came up through kind of like a back channel introduction.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:29

Typically a new CMO at an organization is trying to figure out how they're going

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:33

to come in and affect change quickly.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:34

And I got introduced to those people and, Okay.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:37

That here's what I think I can do.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:38

Here's the kind of team I want to build.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:40

And here's a job description that I would like to align to.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:42

And I make sure that I put vice president marketing ops on that job description.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:47

it's still rare, but I think we have to start asking for it especially if you're

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:51

going into like a casual conversation about joining, especially like a mid

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:55

to late stage startup, that's a good place to try to get that job title.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:17:59

Cause they're just looking for someone who knows what they're doing, who can be

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:02

very effective very quickly and who can probably recruit a few people that will,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:07

Help them be very effective very quickly.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:09

So I think that's a good place to ask for that title.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:11

But you know, if you're in an organization and you're a director or a senior

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:14

director and there's not an immediate path to VP of marketing ops, I think

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:19

ask what would a VP of marketing ops have to do to earn that job title?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:23

Cause I think a lot of times senior marketing ops people end up being

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:27

a real right hand to the CMO.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:29

They almost end up as like a shadow chief of staff plus marketing operations.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:36

And I think if you're in that position and you're feeling like you're doing a

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:39

dual role of leading a marketing ops team, both tactically and strategically, as

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:44

well as almost being that chief of staff type role, good time to ask for the title

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:50

or ask what would it take to have a vice president of marketing operations here.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:54

that's when we'll start seeing more of them is just kind of pushing that.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:18:57

Like we see VP of rev ops.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:00

All the time.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:01

And, I think that's because people ask for that title at some point in the

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:05

history and then it became a standard.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:07

Yeah, we need a vice president of revenue operations, of course, like

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:10

what sales leader wouldn't have one.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:13

so I think we just need to start asking for it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:14

maybe that's an oversimplification of the answer, but

Justin Norris: 00:19:17

So sometimes it's not sometimes it

Justin Norris: 00:19:19

actually, but, and so you anticipated, I think my, my next question, which

Justin Norris: 00:19:22

is, is it just a name between a director or senior director or a

Justin Norris: 00:19:26

VP or, and it sounds like if you're allusion to like sort of that chief

Justin Norris: 00:19:29

of staff role, maybe let's spell it.

Justin Norris: 00:19:31

Like, what does that mean for people that maybe haven't had that experience

Justin Norris: 00:19:33

of partnering with a marketing

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:35

I think you have to figure out how can you, even in your mops role,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:38

start to truly understand the full scope of all of the other marketing functions.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:44

almost, can you learn enough about product corporate demand, especially of course,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:49

which is a natural relationship for ops.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:51

can you learn enough about those functions to the point where if your CMO was going

Kimi Corrigan: 00:19:56

on sabbatical or there was a gap in a CMO that you could intern that role,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:02

and I think if you feel like you could, or at least, 60, 70, 80 percent could.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:07

Then you're heading in the right direction of asking for that job title.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:10

That doesn't mean you have to be an expert in those areas, but you should

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:12

be competent across the full spectrum of marketing, as well as, you partnering

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:16

with revenue operations and understanding the sales side of things much better

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:21

than most marketing functions do.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:23

I think that's where you can gain a lot of confidence in

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:26

earning that title pretty easily.

Justin Norris: 00:20:28

Let's say I am like mid level marketing ops manager, but I want

Justin Norris: 00:20:32

to start to position myself in that way, but I don't have that relationship

Justin Norris: 00:20:36

today with the marketing leader.

Justin Norris: 00:20:37

How can I start to build that?

Justin Norris: 00:20:38

Like, what could somebody do to start to like gain that trust?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:41

you know, especially if you can just get some time with

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:43

them, whether it's, you know, once a month or whatever, just like,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:46

Hey, things are you unable to solve?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:49

Whether it's because of bandwidth or resources, or you just

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:52

don't know how to solve it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:53

Cause at the end of the day, operations people in my mind are just problem solvers

Kimi Corrigan: 00:20:58

of like, Give me as much information as you have available, which could be

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:02

a little, or it could be a lot, or you could only have a couple of the pieces.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:05

And I will try to solve the full problem for you.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:08

so I think it's trying to find out what those things are, whether it's

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:11

directly from a marketing leader or, through just your observations

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:16

and coming up with some solutions or suggestions, like it doesn't have to

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:19

be the end all be all solution, but.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:21

If you see a gap in, a process that marketing is doing internally, that

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:26

has nothing to do with marketing operations traditionally, but like if

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:29

you see a gap in how they are managing partnering through procurement, right?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:34

Like marketing spends a lot of money in a lot of different

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:36

ways with a lot of vendors.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:38

And that can be an overwhelming process for so many people that spend

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:41

dollars in marketing to navigate.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:44

Can be tough for finance because they're dealing with so many different

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:46

stakeholders trying to spend dollars if you see a process like that where you're

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:50

like I think I could kind of just map this out in a lucid chart and I could look

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:53

for areas of efficiency and I could Do some really good documentation on this.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:21:59

I'm not saying to loan out all your time without being compensated for it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:03

But if you see something like that and say like, Hey, I'd love to take it past it,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:07

something like that, just to see if we can find some efficiencies and find some wins

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:11

for everyone involved in this process.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:13

Like.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:14

look for some of those and go after them.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:16

I think that helps show the value of like marketing operations.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:19

Isn't just Marketo and Salesforce and six cents.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:23

it's truly like overall operational efficiency and excellence

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:27

and you have the mind for it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:29

It's just applying in a different way.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:30

I

Justin Norris: 00:22:31

coming back to your point about like, we're more than just systems

Justin Norris: 00:22:33

and also that we are very, uh, systems rooted and oriented in many cases,

Justin Norris: 00:22:38

depending on how we enter the field.

Justin Norris: 00:22:40

Is there a role, to think more like about performance or about

Justin Norris: 00:22:43

the actual marketing strategy?

Justin Norris: 00:22:44

Like, Hey, like.

Justin Norris: 00:22:46

I'm seeing this sort of shift in how people are going to market.

Justin Norris: 00:22:48

Like we should be thinking about this, that sort of thing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:51

have one on my team.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:52

He's the best.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:53

And.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:54

I think it's a super valuable role.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:55

Um, I typically call that role, analytics and strategy or data

Kimi Corrigan: 00:22:59

and strategy, at whatever level your organization will support.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:02

Like I love a director type level role in that.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:07

and yes, that person should be very well versed in just like reporting analytics,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:11

hopefully maybe even dabbling in the technical side of like, Being out of

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:15

like build out Tableau dashboards and stuff like all of that basic stuff.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:19

But like for me, the most valuable part of that role is someone who can look at both

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:25

like our data and trends and help people figure out how to take action off of it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:30

Not just read the results, but also that role, is always looking

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:35

out of like what's going on.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:36

Like, what are people talking about on LinkedIn?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:38

What are people talking about at these conferences?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:40

What are the go to market strategies?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:42

Where are the trends when it comes to technology?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:45

Like, do we need to go all in on platform player?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:47

Do we need to do like this piecemeal?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:49

Like we're going to do these six tiny tools and that's going to be a better

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:52

way for it to build up our strategy around them versus letting like a

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:55

giant platform drive our strategy.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:23:58

So, I'm lucky to have someone in that role who I think is excellent at it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:01

So, if anyone out there is listening and wants to learn more about that person's

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:05

day to day, specifically, I wouldn't be happy to make an introduction.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:08

but I think that role is a key component of a marketing operations team.

Justin Norris: 00:24:12

That's amazing.

Justin Norris: 00:24:13

And I think, turning to the notion of operations and strategy, cause

Justin Norris: 00:24:17

you have two buckets in your title, that strategy piece is often missing.

Justin Norris: 00:24:22

so I'm curious, like, what does it mean?

Justin Norris: 00:24:24

For you to have both of those things in your title,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:27

it means I have to have really good boundaries

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:31

as does anyone that has strategy in your title, because there's no

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:34

doubt you're still very tactical.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:35

You're very.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:37

Much in systems or data or whatever processes day to day.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:41

And you have to set aside time for the strategy, whether that's blocking

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:47

time on your calendar or knowing how to make that shift in one meeting to

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:51

come in and say, I'm going to talk to you about performance last month.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:55

And then at the end of the meeting, I'm going to talk to you about

Kimi Corrigan: 00:24:58

qualified buying groups and why that strategy might be what's best for us.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:01

Like you have to be able to do both.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:03

And it's really hard to not get bogged down by the tactical.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:07

Piece of it, right?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:08

Because it feels good to cross things off a list and the list never stops growing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:12

But the more you can hold that boundary on strategy being part of your day

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:16

every day or your week every week.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:18

The more optimized your to do list of tactical things becomes like, then

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:23

you're working on the right things.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:24

Even if they are tactical, it's because you're driving strategy to improve

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:30

overall efficiency of, you know, whatever it is, go to market or procurement

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:35

or, whatever process, like you have to hold space for that strategy, both.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:41

whether it's setting aside 20 minutes every day to scroll linked

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:43

in and read all the hot takes or read ebooks, listen to podcasts.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:47

Like if you feel like you have strategy or if you have strategy, your job title

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:52

and you don't feel all that strategic, ultimately that's a you problem to solve.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:25:58

that comes with like navigating priorities with your manager and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:01

your team and expectations of what bandwidth is, et cetera.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:04

But like you have to find a way to hold time and space for it.

Justin Norris: 00:26:07

maybe let's dig into the word strategy a little bit, cause

Justin Norris: 00:26:09

it's kind of like lead or campaign where it can mean so many different

Justin Norris: 00:26:12

things to so many different people.

Justin Norris: 00:26:13

what does it mean to you, in terms of like where you should focus?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:17

the simplest way I think about strategy for me and my team is

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:20

just like, are we thinking about how to do things better all the time?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:25

Like we can design a really great process and it works great for

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:28

six months, but that doesn't mean it should just ride forever.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:30

you know, even just like our intake form for our ticketing system for marketing

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:35

operations, you know, we shouldn't set it and forget it for three years.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:38

are we thinking about the experience people are having, even

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:40

asking us to do work for them?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:42

Like, yeah.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:43

Are we constantly following up on one specific thing and then not

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:47

optimizing the intake process for it?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:49

So it's just constantly thinking about how can we do this better and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:53

better could mean a lot of things.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:54

It could be.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:55

More efficient.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:56

It could be a easier user experience.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:26:58

It could be better conversion rates.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:01

it's just how can we improve the thing that we're thinking

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:04

about and that we're doing?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:05

And that is up and running.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:07

so that's when I think about strategy of like, are we strategic?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:10

And it's like, yeah, because we are constantly like thinking about how can we

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:14

do this better and then executing on it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:17

And if it works great.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:18

And if it doesn't work, okay, let's think about a new way to strategize on this.

Justin Norris: 00:27:22

So would it be the strategy of the marketing ops team?

Justin Norris: 00:27:25

Like we're going to be strategic and how we're executing our operations

Justin Norris: 00:27:27

or the strategy of the marketing team

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:29

Oh,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:30

Matt, a strategy is so

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:31

meta for marketing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:33

not only do we have to be strategic about how we work and how people

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:36

work with us, we also need to think about strategy on behalf of all the

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:40

marketing teams that are our customers.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:43

and we do that in a lot of ways.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:44

Like for example, like campaign operations, going back to email marketing

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:48

is the bread and butter of where.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:50

We came from to get here.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:52

I have worked with all kinds of campaign operations, people with internal external.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:56

I've had people that they want to come in.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:27:58

They don't really want to talk to anyone.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:00

They don't want to do anything.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:00

They want to look at their ticket queue.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:02

They want to build, execute tests and schedule.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:05

Amazing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:06

what a skill

Justin Norris: 00:28:06

you need that.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:07

I also have someone like my campaign ops leader now does all

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:10

that, but is also very integrated into the strategy of everything that like

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:15

anything that comes into his queue.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:17

It's not the first time he's heard about it because he's

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:19

been in the strategy meetings.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:21

He's helped people think about things differently.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:23

He knows what's coming something strategize on how we're going to do,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:26

you know, a trial nurture program and like, let's, trigger off of

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:29

these data points, etc. So, you can go any direction with that.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:34

And I think both are welcome.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:35

It's just.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:37

I like the way that my campaign ops person works now, because it does

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:40

make other teams more strategic and hopefully teaching them, okay, we need

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:45

to think about this thing differently.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:46

It's not a we do these five things.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:48

It's we know two of the things we really want to do.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:51

So let's talk about what the other three things could be.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:53

Like, what is the Wild, wild world of possibilities.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:28:56

And then we can talk to the campaign ops person to say what is possible.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:00

And instead of him saying, you know, these two are possible.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:03

This one isn't, it's these two are possible.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:05

This one isn't, but I have six other ideas for you to think about.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:10

so I think it's, we're responsible for our strategy as well as.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:13

Lending it to everyone else

Justin Norris: 00:29:15

I love that.

Justin Norris: 00:29:15

And it's, it's funny, kind of ironic that as you like, you know, climb the

Justin Norris: 00:29:20

ladder of marketing operations, it actually does lead you back to marketing.

Justin Norris: 00:29:23

Cause when I look at like where I. Do most of my learning.

Justin Norris: 00:29:25

I mean, there's tons of great rev ops and mops podcasts.

Justin Norris: 00:29:28

I do listen to them, but most of my time is actually spent on like

Justin Norris: 00:29:31

marketing podcasts and books or go to market or like bringing in those

Justin Norris: 00:29:36

ideas, like you mentioned, to like feedback into the business, like,

Justin Norris: 00:29:39

Hey, are we thinking about this?

Justin Norris: 00:29:41

And it's just kind of funny that it takes you full circle back to the thing itself.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:44

is always back thinking about like being a VP of marketing

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:47

ops and I've, I've been that for a few years now and I've had a few people

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:51

reach out, I think, with good intent of, Hey, like, aren't you ready to move on?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:29:57

Like, why aren't you going for your first?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:00

CMO role or just VP of marketing role at a startup.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:03

I get the impression they're kind of like move on.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:05

And I'm just like, you have no idea what marketing operations

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:09

truly is and what it can be.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:12

Like, I feel like we're still scratching the surface of it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:15

so I find it slightly insulting, even though I know that's not what they mean.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:19

I'm still learning every day.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:21

I'm not bored.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:22

I love where I sit.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:23

I love seeing so much of the organization and so much of what we're doing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:27

I think it's endless still, or at least it seems like a wide open road that will take

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:31

me to the end of my career, hopefully.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:33

So, not saying never, but I still have a lot to learn here in marketing operations.

Justin Norris: 00:30:38

I think that's inspiring.

Justin Norris: 00:30:39

do you ever either feel concerned about or tempted by the prospect of like revenue

Justin Norris: 00:30:45

operations of expanding into those other fields where you feel like actually it's a

Justin Norris: 00:30:48

different field.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:49

yeah, I just don't think it's for me.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:50

I love partnering with those teams.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:53

I like marketing ops sitting in marketing and I, and not under rev ops.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:30:57

I just think that makes more sense to me.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:00

Um, I know it works well for some organizations and people.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:02

And I think that's great too.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:04

but yeah, it's just, there's something about it that just doesn't

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:07

appeal to me in the same way.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:09

I sit in on some like forecasting and planning and pipeline meetings and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:12

I'm dangerous enough to understand what's going on, but the thought of

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:15

like, just thinking about pipeline and forecasting and like that piece

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:19

of it, just isn't as appealing to me.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:21

I'm glad it appeals to someone else I'm happy to just be their partner in it.

Justin Norris: 00:31:26

Marketing is its own thing.

Justin Norris: 00:31:27

And You know, the more I think about it, I think about this a lot lately.

Justin Norris: 00:31:30

So it's funny that just the timing of this conversation, like, sales,

Justin Norris: 00:31:33

it's very hard, like, I don't envy sellers carrying a quota

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:37

I support them.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:38

They have all my.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:39

Love and support BDR is more than anyone like, you know, what can I get for you?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:43

I'm here for you.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:44

But like the thought of even just sitting in a revenue organization

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:47

that is so hitting that number and the stress of that, they clearly

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:51

get some sort of enjoyment out of it, especially if you're good at it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:54

And like, kudos, but like, I couldn't do it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:56

reminds me of, like, the same reason I haven't fully gone

Kimi Corrigan: 00:31:58

into, like, the consulting route.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:00

Like, there's just some risk aversion that I cannot quite.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:03

jump over of like, I like having someone, say, here's your health

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:09

insurance and here's how you do this.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:11

And we're going to make sure your taxes get paid.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:13

Like there's some aversion that reminds me of like consulting and sales of

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:17

like, I'm just like, Nope, I'm good.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:19

I'm gonna stay right over here.

Justin Norris: 00:32:20

and yet marketing in a lot of ways, it's very ambiguous, it's

Justin Norris: 00:32:23

very, especially like, if we think about like brand and, you know, we

Justin Norris: 00:32:26

get away from like the directly linear performance marketing model, you're

Justin Norris: 00:32:30

doing things that are kind of important, but you can't fully measure them and

Justin Norris: 00:32:34

you can't fully like, there's this art.

Justin Norris: 00:32:36

To it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:37

Definitely an art to the science.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:38

Yes.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:39

And I'm just trying to figure out, like, how to turn that

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:42

art into something measurable.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:43

like, we're rolling out HockeyStack right

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:45

now we're not going to use it as, like, an attribution, they sit in

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:48

attribution category, but that's not what appealed to us about it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:50

It's more of, like, really understanding that full journey that people go on

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:55

and then how to optimize it, You know, pulling this lever tweaking this.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:32:59

so even though it's an art, sort of a dark magic, I'm still trying to

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:04

figure out how to measure all of it.

Justin Norris: 00:33:05

not a thread I plan to pull on, but since you mentioned it, is hockey

Justin Norris: 00:33:08

stack really where it's at because, I've had their CRO Mira on the show before.

Justin Norris: 00:33:11

They look really cool.

Justin Norris: 00:33:12

They look like they're really innovating beyond, you know, a lot

Justin Norris: 00:33:15

of other players in the category.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:16

I do get that impression.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:17

I mean, that's what, sold us on it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:19

I think what we saw was really impressive and it's solving.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:22

It looks like it's going to solve what we're trying to solve.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:24

Currently, the team's very impressive and you can tell they're

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:29

really trying to make this a big disruptor and some of the things on.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:33

The roadmap that they've shared with us seem like other gaps that

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:36

we want to fill if those things become real and tangible to us.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:39

So, we're fans and we're going to see how it goes.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:42

we're only a few weeks into our implementation, but

Kimi Corrigan: 00:33:44

we're very excited about it.

Justin Norris: 00:33:45

Really Sweet.

Justin Norris: 00:33:46

it's a natural segue into, talking a bit more about.

Justin Norris: 00:33:50

Text stack and you alluded to some of the, questions that ops folks need

Justin Norris: 00:33:54

to ask themselves right now around.

Justin Norris: 00:33:55

Do I commit to a big platform?

Justin Norris: 00:33:56

Do I go composable?

Justin Norris: 00:33:58

am I still going to be using Marketo or HubSpot or whatever first gen

Justin Norris: 00:34:02

marketing automation platform on?

Justin Norris: 00:34:03

Am I still going to be using that in 3 years?

Justin Norris: 00:34:05

Those are big questions.

Justin Norris: 00:34:06

How are you thinking about that?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:08

Yeah.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:08

I'm taking a different approach this time around than I have in the past.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:11

I'm not anti platforms in general.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:14

Like we just purchased Marketo a few months ago.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:16

We're launching in a few weeks.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:18

you know, we're on Salesforce.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:20

but when we think about the other things I would typically put on the list of like,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:23

we need to get a ABM platform in here.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:26

We need to do this.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:27

am approaching it differently this time of like, I almost want to go

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:29

back to like, breaking down all the platforms into the smaller pieces.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:33

And that's the approach we're taking here for a few reasons.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:35

One, you know, budgets are tighter than ever.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:38

It's a lot easier to say, I want to spend 200k.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:42

On eight platforms, and I'm going to roll them out one by one as I

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:45

piece together how the technology is going to support our strategy.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:49

So that's easier to navigate just in the time of more

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:52

scrutiny than ever budget wise.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:55

But I also just, I'm still a huge fan of all of those vendors.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:58

6 cents demand base.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:34:59

Like all of them are amazing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:01

Their content's amazing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:02

Their tools are amazing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:02

I've been very successful with them in the past, but there's something about taking

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:07

back some more control under the hood and piecing together these smaller tools.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:13

That's really appealing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:14

Um, there's a lot of those hot takes on LinkedIn.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:16

I'm seeing that kind of help validate where we're heading.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:19

I have never demoed so many marketing technologies that I

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:22

have in the past six months.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:23

Cause there's just so many up and coming players that are leaning into

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:27

that, interest from marketers to go back to specific tools for specific

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:33

needs versus an all in one platform.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:35

Cause I think the all in one platform is great for a lot of reasons, but you end

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:39

up with a lot of black box feeling of like, I don't really know how this works.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:43

And as operators, that makes us generally quite uncomfortable.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:47

we want to be able to understand everything that's happening and why

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:50

it's putting it's giving the output it's giving and I think some of those bigger

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:54

platforms took that power away from us.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:35:57

And then we ended up getting questions we couldn't answer, which we are

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:00

typically very uncomfortable with of like, I don't know why this

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:04

account is saying it's in market.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:06

Like, I can't quite tell you why, but I just know the platform says it is.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:10

I think that became a problem of trust between sales and marketing as well.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:14

And I think that's why, I'm interested in going back to this smaller tools

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:18

with a bigger scope across all of them.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:22

And I think we will continue to see more of that in the market.

Justin Norris: 00:36:25

Yeah, I'm so there with you.

Justin Norris: 00:36:27

And for all the same reasons, we're literally just now in the process of

Justin Norris: 00:36:30

moving from called a bigger legacy, uh, ABM platform to Matt Kudu, which

Justin Norris: 00:36:35

some people know about already.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:36

Yeah,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:37

they're great.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:37

I've done their podcast before.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:39

I haven't used the product, but

Kimi Corrigan: 00:36:40

heard great things.

Justin Norris: 00:36:41

night and day in terms of the experience of like, Hey, like

Justin Norris: 00:36:45

there's just feels like there's more access to more knobs under the hood.

Justin Norris: 00:36:50

That you can tune to get to a place.

Justin Norris: 00:36:52

Whereas.

Justin Norris: 00:36:53

You know, with a bigger platform, like a bigger company as well, more

Justin Norris: 00:36:56

established, you just hit a wall.

Justin Norris: 00:36:58

It's like, no, we can't do that.

Justin Norris: 00:36:59

And it's like, maybe it'll be on the roadmap in the year.

Justin Norris: 00:37:01

Maybe it won't, but it's like, there is nothing you can do.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:04

And now thinking about evolution, it just

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:05

makes so much sense, right?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:06

Like we got overwhelmed with all the tiny tools we had and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:08

trying to like synthesize them.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:10

So then these platforms came in and sort of did it for us.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:13

We're like, okay, great.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:14

we needed that.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:14

And then we started to understand or have more questions.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:18

And now that we all have better resource teams and have a better

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:21

understanding of operations in general.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:23

Now we're ready to be like, I want more control.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:25

Like, it's almost like I wish some of those platforms I

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:27

could break up of like, Okay.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:28

Okay.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:29

Thank you for your model, unlock it for me.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:32

So like I can now mess with it and you just can't.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:35

So, and I'm sure in, 10 or 15 years, hopefully when I'm getting to the end

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:39

of this ride, we're probably gonna go back to like the full scale, all in

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:43

one solution for this stuff as well.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:37:44

I think it's just natural.

Justin Norris: 00:37:46

way you articulated that.

Justin Norris: 00:37:47

It's interesting that I've.

Justin Norris: 00:37:49

I've been feeling the same thing.

Justin Norris: 00:37:51

think about, your team, uh, great article that you wrote that I read

Justin Norris: 00:37:55

that I've alluded to before about like, how do you build a team?

Justin Norris: 00:37:58

Like, what's the first, second, third, 10th person that you should hire?

Justin Norris: 00:38:01

without retracing all those steps, maybe let's just talk about how do

Justin Norris: 00:38:03

you think about what are the holes that you need to fill and how do you

Justin Norris: 00:38:05

plug people in at different stages?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:07

I would say it almost always platform ops first,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:11

at the end of the day, marketing operations is in charge of systems.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:14

Whether it's two systems or 12 or more.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:18

so you have to have platform operations and typically like if I'm building a

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:22

brand new team and I have the option, like that's the first part, like I'm,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:25

I'm getting on the phone with like my most trusted platform ops people

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:28

in the space of like, Hey, you want to come, you want to come do this?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:31

Like I need someone to like keep the lights on and start thinking about like.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:35

What did we inherit here?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:36

What needs optimized?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:38

What's working?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:39

What's not?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:39

So like platform operations is still just like bread and butter and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:43

platform operations can typically cover campaign operations in the

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:46

short term or at a small scale.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:48

So that role is always number one for me.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:51

from there it's that data and strategy role has kind of risen to the top as like,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:38:57

also would like to hire that at the same time, but if not like second, And then

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:01

campaign operations at scale, like whether that's bringing in someone full time, if

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:06

warranted or outsourcing to a consultant, like, and then getting campaign operations

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:10

off the plate of platform operations.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:12

and then from there, my next favorite role to bring in is.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:17

general operations, project management, just like that right hand person to like

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:21

help synthesize, like building templates for project management, not actually

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:25

project managing everything across marketing, just keeping the team super

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:29

organized, being the go to partner for finance and procurement for other project

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:34

management roles within the organization.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:37

So like, those are kind of my, the handful that I'm always like.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:41

If I'm going somewhere new and they want me to build a team, I'm like, great.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:44

I need these three, four, five roles very quickly.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:47

Which ones can I hire immediately?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:39:49

Like those, those are where I think about like the most important priorities.

Justin Norris: 00:39:52

And speaking about priorities, And we're in Q4 of the

Justin Norris: 00:39:55

calendar year, or at least at my company, we're thinking about 2025 right now.

Justin Norris: 00:40:00

what does that cadence look like for you?

Justin Norris: 00:40:01

Or what sort of cadence do you try to drive in terms of like the

Justin Norris: 00:40:04

business plan, the marketing plan, the marketing operations plan?

Justin Norris: 00:40:07

How does that ladder work?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:08

we're finishing up Q3.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:10

We're on a delayed start.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:11

So Feb one starts, so we're about to hit Q4.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:13

So we're right in the middle of modeling and forecasting for next fiscal.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:18

and not that marketing is driving that overall process.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:20

That's definitely like a revenue finance process, but we have to

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:24

work their numbers into our process.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:26

So we're kind of right now waiting, like, what are those final targets?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:29

And then how do we do our tops down model and then we're going to do our bottoms

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:32

up model and figure out like what is that gap between what they say they need

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:36

from us and then what our budget can actually provide based on our historical

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:40

so that we're right in the middle of that and someone on my team is responsible

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:44

for the marketing share of that so I try to stay really close to that.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:48

specific to my current organization, we are on the verge of some like really

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:52

big launches coming up next month.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:54

Um, so that's like going to kick off Q4 for us.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:40:58

And it's all about planning for next year.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:01

So doing marketing leadership off sites and then team off sites and looking at our

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:04

roadmap, what did we actually get done?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:06

What do we need to reconfigure?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:08

based on all the tech that we've brought in in the past six months,

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:11

like what's reasonable to continue to try to prioritize over next year.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:15

And then doing that listening tour with all of the other marketing

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:18

teams and leaders of like, what are your priorities for next year?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:21

Cause your priorities end up becoming my priorities, whether

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:24

they're on my list right now or not.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:26

So.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:26

It's really just like an active listening time of like, what are you

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:30

guys thinking about doing next year?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:32

And they may not even realize they're going to ask us to do something, but

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:35

we will start to kind of pencil them in based on what they're going to be doing.

Justin Norris: 00:41:39

It took the words listening to her out of my mouth.

Justin Norris: 00:41:41

how much of your roadmap would you say is like internal mobs driven?

Justin Norris: 00:41:45

Like we need to do, I don't know, tech debt or a platform implementation.

Justin Norris: 00:41:49

How much is like emerging out of the needs of those other teams and stakeholders?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:53

Yeah, when I think about my roadmap, it's typically

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:56

What do we have to do because other teams are going to need us to do it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:41:59

And like, we will hold up their strategy if we aren't planning for it.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:03

So what do we have to do?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:04

That's outside of our wishlist.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:06

And then what do we need to do to keep our team and systems and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:11

processes healthy and scaled?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:14

You know, it could be tech debt could be, you know, partnering across the

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:17

org on page layouts, whatever it is.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:19

So what do we need to do?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:20

That's marketing ops driven would be the second bucket.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:23

And then I always try to keep a little bit of space for what do we want to do?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:28

what are those cool projects that are going to make us feel joyful and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:31

productive and effective that also provide value to the organization

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:35

that no one is going to ask us to do?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:37

It's not a we have to do this or something's going to break if we don't.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:40

It's.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:41

what do we want to do that's going to be valuable for our learning

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:45

experience that still provides value?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:47

And that percentage is always variable depending on what those first two

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:51

percentages take up But I try to think about it in those three buckets

Kimi Corrigan: 00:42:55

I try to think about cleaning up the roadmap quarterly But looking

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:00

at it monthly of like, okay, what is actually still happening this month

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:04

versus what's completely changed because of, whatever scenario.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:08

And like, do we move it out a month?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:10

Do we put it in the parking lot?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:11

Can we pull it forward because something else is being held up?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:15

so yeah, right in the middle of thinking about that for next year.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:17

And we'll probably have a bunch of stuff that we have to kick to next year because

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:20

it just, those want to do's or need to do's for our team just didn't get done.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:25

And like, It's sometimes it's good when things don't get done, because then by

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:28

the time you get to them, it's like, is this still actually a priority?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:31

Is this still actually something we even want to do based on what we know now?

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:34

And if it's not, that's okay.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:36

So roadmap is like a loose term for me.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:39

It's more of just what are the big rocks that we like and that we don't

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:42

like that still have to get done?

Justin Norris: 00:43:44

I love the idea of integrating some

Justin Norris: 00:43:46

like me time into the road.

Justin Norris: 00:43:47

I mean, it's, not unimportant.

Justin Norris: 00:43:49

And there are often things that do have sort of a atmospheric benefit in the

Justin Norris: 00:43:53

sense that like it, uplifts everything.

Justin Norris: 00:43:56

creates a better working environment.

Justin Norris: 00:43:57

So

Kimi Corrigan: 00:43:57

Like one of my roadmap to dues that is due this month has

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:02

been marketing ops team culture.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:04

been here for six months, three months in, it was kind of

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:06

like the team was settling in.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:08

Some of the team was new.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:09

Some of the team was existing.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:10

And I'm like, our team Slack channel is just a bunch of like alerts from

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:13

the air table that we have tickets.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:15

Like we've got to get the vibes up.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:17

Like we've got to have some fun.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:18

So.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:19

You know, it's just simple stuff like that's on my roadmap to like improve

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:22

marketing ops team culture to the level in which I think it should be at.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:25

And that's just, okay, we're going to have a holiday party.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:28

We're going to do a secret Santa.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:29

We're going to do the meme Olympics next month.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:31

I signed every day of the week to someone on the marketing ops team to

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:35

like put a prompt in the Slack channel of any kind, you know, Yesterday

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:39

was would you rather Wednesday.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:41

Today I asked everyone like what's your favorite food taste wise that smells

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:45

terrible like just really silly things But I'm like it's important to me and

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:49

I'm putting it on the roadmap because I'm gonna hold myself accountable to

Kimi Corrigan: 00:44:52

like getting this done for the team so anything can go on the roadmap.

Justin Norris: 00:44:56

I love it.

Justin Norris: 00:44:57

I think that is the last question we have time for, but really grateful

Justin Norris: 00:45:00

for you being on the show, sharing some of the wisdom you've gained.

Justin Norris: 00:45:04

just super interesting perspective.

Justin Norris: 00:45:05

I think for folks that are like, I'm a senior manager, I'm a director,

Justin Norris: 00:45:08

but I want to know like, what does that next sort of mountain look like?

Justin Norris: 00:45:11

I think you've given a really clear picture of that and a lot of guidance.

Justin Norris: 00:45:14

So thank you so much.

Kimi Corrigan: 00:45:16

Thanks for having

Kimi Corrigan: 00:45:16

me