SEO in the Age of AI - Gaetano DiNardi

Justin: 00:00:14

When I first got into marketing, SEO was by far the most

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hipster of all the sub-disciplines.

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It promised massive

amounts of free traffic.

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If you could just figure out how to

game the algorithm, there was this

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David and Goliath energy to it.

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Scrappy startups out maneuvering

these big slow moving incumbents

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who hadn't figured out digital yet,

and it had this air of mystery.

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A lot of SEO experts came

off like these underground.

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Punk rock types like Rebel Alliance

versus Galactic Empire Vibes,

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because so much of it was hard to

verify, the space was also full of

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mythology, half-truths, misinformation.

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That was well over a decade ago

and a lot has changed since then.

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Not necessarily the misinformation

part, that's probably still

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around, but the game itself has

changed massively because of ai.

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So to help unpack it all, I

brought on the coolest SEO

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expert I know, Gaetano DiNardi.

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We're gonna talk about how SEO

has evolved, how AI is reshaping

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it, and what to focus on in 2025.

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Gaetano so happy to have you on the show.

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Gaetano DiNardi: Well, thank you.

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That was an awesome intro.

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Happy to be here.

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Justin: You know, back in the day, SEO.

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Had kind of this like, set of rules,

you know, if you follow the experts,

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it was all about, all right, you

gotta do your meta tags and your page

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headings and mention the keywords so

many times and build your backlinks

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and structure your pages like this.

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I'm just curious from your point of

view, and I haven't been as clued into

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SEO over the last little while, like

what has changed over the past 10 years?

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What conventional wisdom

just doesn't apply anymore.

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Gaetano DiNardi: Well, you, you could do

all that stuff and still not perform well.

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So, that, that is just like the

foundational building blocks

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of like table stakes now.

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So all, all those things, I think

people viewed them as, oh, you

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know, if we do all this, then we'll

be far more likely to succeed.

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Now that is table stakes.

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So that used to be true

because nobody was doing it.

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Once everybody figured out,

these are the, these are the ways

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you need to structure pages and

content in order to perform well.

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Uh, then it became less effective.

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So in, in a, in a summary, the law of

shitty clickthroughs, where as more

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widely adopted a technique becomes

the less effective it is, that has

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basically happened over and over again.

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Lather, rinse, repeat.

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everybody figured out, you know, once

I do the basics and then drive tons of

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back links and then, you know, repeat,

lather, rinse, you can grow traffic.

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but that's, uh, no longer the case.

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In the new world that we're in.

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Justin: I mean, I remember like people

used to obsess over every Google update.

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You know, it's like it's panda

and it's this and it's that.

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I don't even remember

the names of all of them.

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we zoom out from that, did a lot

actually really change in terms of

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the game, like over that time, or

is it really the, the fundamentals

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are the same and maybe it's just

getting harder because of competition?

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Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.

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In, in a sense, it's getting

tougher because of competition, but

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fundamentals still are important.

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you, you know, I can take

the same exact strategy I.

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And apply it to two different brands.

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One being a powerful, successful,

well-known brand, and the other being a

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scrappy, unknown startup, and the scrappy,

unknown startup is not gonna perform.

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Meanwhile, the big.

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Well-known brand is gonna perform same

exact strategy, same exact everything.

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Um, and that, that's just the way it goes

because bigger batter brands have, they,

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you know, they get a preference, right?

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And so there, there's that aspect of it.

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which I think now AI is, uh, democratizing

a little bit where you can be a smaller

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scrappier challenger brand and still.

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Get a lot of coverage in AI search.

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you know, that's just the way that

I see things unfolding, but when

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it was just a Google game, yeah.

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You know, the biggest,

baddest brands generally win.

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I.

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Justin: What, what is that about?

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Like, is, is Google just on the

backend, kind of using some, uh,

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signal of brand strength or company

prestige or something like that and,

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and kind of putting their finger on

the scale or what, how does Google

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kind of tell who the biggest, broadest

brands are from that point of view?

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Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, there's,

uh, site quality ratings and

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the Google leaks that came out.

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clearly, you know, brand mentions

are, are a factor now that came out.

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so the more brand search you

have, that is a factor I.

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And in fact, uh, I think it was

a guy named Tom Capper, on Moz.

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He came out with a really interesting

study that showed if you're one of

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those sites that gets a lot of SEO

traffic that's non-branded, but

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nobody's checking for your brand.

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That's kind of weird.

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It just doesn't seem to really add up.

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And so those kinds of sites are gonna have

a really low overall site quality score.

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Meanwhile, if there's a correlation

between high amounts of branded traffic

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and non-branded traffic, that's generally

a good sign because it's more normal.

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And if you think about the kinds of

sites that may have no brand, but a

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lot of non-brand, what is that usually?

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Sites that are gaming it somehow, you

know, casino, online gambling, maybe

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some low grade publishers doing a

bunch of concept farm stuff, right?

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affiliates.

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So they're, they're using

that to fight back against the

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spammers of the web essentially.

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Justin: You know, on, on that note,

one of the things that I have really

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noticed and been reflecting on when it

comes to search in my own experience

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as a user is just, just how bad it is.

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Like how you, you search for

something and every single.

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Article seems to regurgitate the same

like stale, generic, lifeless insights,

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and it's probably why I use chat GPT for

coming close to a hundred percent, at

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least as a starting point of queries.

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I will, I will go and type in

chat GPT instead of Google.

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You typed about this too.

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Has, has, SEO kind of killed Google

or obviously there are many, many

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people still using it, but have

they kind of become victims of

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these practices where the content

isn't even worth reading anymore?

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I.

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Gaetano DiNardi: There's, there's

been some steps to, to sort of fight

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back against that with, the, the

new ways that search is working.

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but the trade off is that

there's less traffic going out.

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So if you think about, uh, the

way AI mode works, there's a

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concept called query fan out.

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Query fan out means, let's just

say you start with a seed keyword.

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Like, um, identity theft protection,

let's just say that's the keyword.

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The query fan out generates what's

called synthetic queries around it, which

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basically tries to cover the whole concept

of identity theft protection in like

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one conglomeration Frankenstein answer.

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So that diversity of

answers aims to some extent.

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fight back against like

the lifeless, soulless.

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It, you know, it, it just one type

of page down the, down the line of

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the 10 blue links, they're all being

the same lifeless, soulless page.

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The AI mode tends to, to fight back

against that with the query fan out.

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Because it's gonna give you perspectives.

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It's gonna give you, you know,

pros and cons, pricing models,

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what people are saying online.

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It's gonna scrape together

all these different, types of

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answers or fragments of answers.

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They actually call it FRAs, and

then they, stitch it together.

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And then there you have it.

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And, and so that's one way,

you know, Google and other AI

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platforms can, can fight back

against lifeless, solace content.

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But, but like, if I think about the

root cause of the problem, it's because

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Google tends to reward in, in the classic

model, it rewards consensus, meaning

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like you can't deviate too far off.

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From the main agreement of what

something is, because if you do

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that, it's not gonna show up.

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So it's really hard to inject what's

called information gain or, you

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know, new twist or spin on something

because if you're too far deviating

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away from the consensus answer,

it's just not gonna get surfaced.

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And so that's, I think like

the, the push and pull of it.

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Justin: It is an interesting,

because, you know, on, on social,

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like let's say the, the LinkedIn.

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space, even though it is very much an echo

chamber, people are seemingly rewarded

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for these like contrarian takes and

for like poking the bear a little bit.

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And then in, in Google it's like,

well, let's just see what like

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the average of the average of

the average is and give it that

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Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, you do not get

rewarded for contrarian takes in, in SEO.

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you, you have to, I, I mean, if you can.

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Potentially, but it's tough.

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And user engagement signals would probably

be the thing that, uh, dictates that.

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So what you would kind of need to

do to an extent is like reframe

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the overview in the consensus way,

but then you have to change it.

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So I think an example would be, is

identity theft protection worth it?

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Think of that query for an example.

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Historically, all the vendors and

providers would say, yes, it's worth it.

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Yes, it pays for itself 10 times over.

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Yes, blah, blah, blah.

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Everybody just saying, yes, you

need it because they wanna sell it.

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But when I was working in ID

theft protection, we were the

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only brand at the time that said,

well, it's only worth it if.

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You know, this, this, this, this, this.

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It's only worth it if you don't wanna

manually track your credit score.

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It's only worth it if you don't

wanna manually open your credit

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card statement every month and look

through all the transactions and

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make sure nothing's fraudulent.

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Summary.

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You know, if you wanna do all this

manual work, then you don't need it.

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If you're good enough to be on

top of it and you're digitally

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savvy and you have the time, then

yeah, you don't really need it.

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But if you are not tech savvy, if

you don't have the time, if you don't

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have the patience, if you don't have

the know-how, then the tool of course

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just automates all that for you.

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So we were the only brand at the

time just laying it out like that.

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And that is a way to put a spin of

maybe, you know, a new approach, a

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new take, a new thought on something

that requires a lot of consensus.

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Justin: I mean, that sounds like a

more useful article to me as a reader.

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Like I would rather, of course always

very suspicious when it's like, should

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I buy the thing that I'm selling?

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Yes.

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Buy it.

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You know, for me,

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Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, it's more honest.

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It, it, it's more honest, like, uh.

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I, I think that, that, that's

why, um, newsletters and following

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people's sub stacks is becoming so

popular because you're gonna get

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a lot of those contrarian takes.

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Like if you want a guy that is doing

a lot of contrarian takes in SEO right

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now, his name is Dwayne Forrester.

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Great guy to follow, very tech

focused, very AI forward thinking,

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but he's thinking of stuff that

everyone is so far behind on.

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But I follow him because if

you were to write that stuff

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on Google, I'd never find it.

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So that's why I think the emergence

of Substack and following people's

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personal brands and um, even social

profiles to an extent, you know, this

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is really becoming a growing thing.

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Justin: I totally agree.

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I mean, that is a hundred percent of

where I educate myself, uh, these days.

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I'm curious to come back to what you

were describing before about Query

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Fan out and this AI generated summary

and is what you're referring about.

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Just to make sure all the listeners are

on the same page, is this the, the AI

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generated text that appears at the top

of a search result when you search for

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something in most engines these days?

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Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, that's right.

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That's absolutely right.

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Justin: I mean, let's,

let's talk about that.

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'cause that's a fairly, uh, new

maybe in the last year or two.

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Uh, innovation, like how much is that

radically changing the landscape from

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When we, before we had 10 blue links,

and then we had 10 blue links and a

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sea of ads, and now we've got this

like thing that you don't even need

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to click to see the answer anymore.

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Gaetano DiNardi: Well, I

mean, I could go off on this.

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I don't know how crazy and deep

I could go, but maybe I'll just

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try and summarize the first batch

of things that come to my mind.

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first of all, the device that

you're on is tracked and all of your

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behavior history on your browser,

like, let's just use Google, right?

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It reads your Gmail.

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It has access to your calendar.

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Uh, it knows your clicking chrome,

it knows your click preferences.

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It knows everything basically about

you through your interaction with

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Google Properties, and it creates this.

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Profile of who it thinks

you are and what you like.

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Based on that reason alone, no two

prompts are gonna have the same answer.

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If two people, two different people

search the same thing or similar

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thing, it's gonna be highly,

highly personalized to your taste.

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And so just based on that alone.

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You have a, a, a really like advanced,

advanced version of what used to be

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the 10 blue link personalization.

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Now it's gonna just

feed way more into that.

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and, and, and um, from there, the

next thing that I really think about

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is the SEO implication of like old

school versus like kind of new school.

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If you're someone doing SEO

rank tracking gonna be gone.

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Because we're moving to a visibility

model over a keyword position.

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Rank tracking model AI mode is probably

gonna be the new default pretty soon.

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It hasn't happened yet, but

like all the signs are there.

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The writing is on the wall.

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10 blue links may be completely

gone by, you know, 20, 28 or to

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get it, you may need to like.

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Toggle something that says, yeah,

bring me back to classic Google.

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There may be some people who

don't like the new ai, but I

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think AI will be the, the default.

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Search experience pretty soon.

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So that kills rank tracking.

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that also changes the way you think

about content structuring like you used

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to be, uh, able to rank for a massive

amount of queries and get traffic

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by doing one mega skyscraper page.

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Remember the skyscraper technique that was

like really popular from Brian Dean, uh,

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the back Lanco era that's kind of dead.

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So instead of now doing one mega page,

or like everybody's used to say, like,

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content length, six, 7,000 word guides

and keep re updating your content.

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Uh, I think even Neil Patel and his like

SEO presentation slides were showing

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like, Hey, look at how Wikipedia keeps

updating their pages every year and

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making them longer and longer and longer.

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Uh, you should be doing the

same that that's dead now.

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So the disassembly of the skyscraper.

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Is actually what's great now because

rather than covering all these

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things jammed into one mega page,

you're better off hitting the user

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intent straight on the head, going

as long tail granular as possible.

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To get that real deep topical coverage.

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And then ideally with practical, uh,

internal linking, having, if you can

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do it URLs nested together into the

same folder structure so the site knows

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that all the little clusters of these

things are linked together in this

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little section, you know, that's better.

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So in some ways it's full circle

because HubSpot was talking

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about hub and spoke modeling, you

know, back in: 2017

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But we got away from that somehow.

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and what's bad now is like a

million things jammed into blog

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that's like not great because

blog has generally pagination.

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And so like, have you ever seen

blog slash page slash like 37?

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That's the only way you'll

find content that's bad.

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Because now it's like four or five,

what's called seed positions away from

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the homepage in terms of crawl depth.

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And it's just not good

for, for for modern SEO.

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And so, I don't know, I feel like I

could rant about this for a long time.

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Maybe I'll stop talking.

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But that's just what comes to mind.

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Justin: a fascinating change.

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I mean, so I guess there's like two,

two threads that we could explore.

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The first is where, are trying

to rank for informational content

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where it's like, let's say what

is identity theft protection?

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And maybe you're Acme

identity theft protection.

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So you're, you know, you wanna rank

for that term, you're publishing your

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content and that's bringing you a lot

of traffic at, at one point in time.

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And now all of a sudden

somebody can search for that.

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Get an AI generated summary get

their answer without necessarily

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any click at all to anywhere.

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And, and meanwhile it might be

pulling from you might be pulling

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from your competitor, but it almost

doesn't matter 'cause like I'm

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not leaving the Google front page.

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How much traffic are, are

people losing from that sort

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of thing in your experience?

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Gaetano DiNardi: Uh, a ton.

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on the low end, 30 to 40%.

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Um, on the high end, 70 to 80%

depending on how basic the query is.

298

: 00:17:07

I mean, if you wanna actually

know something that, came out in

299

: 00:17:12

the Claude AI leak that really

summarizes this, I'll show you.

300

: 00:17:17

So I have this post coming out,

soon, but, essentially this is info

301

: 00:17:21

for brands trying to optimize for AI

search why you should avoid covering

302

: 00:17:26

topics that are considered general

knowledge or established information.

303

: 00:17:31

Because the quad AI leak revealed,

there is a command in their systems

304

: 00:17:36

called never search, meaning never

search the web, never cite any brands,

305

: 00:17:41

never put any links to anything.

306

: 00:17:44

For any queries that represent,

uh, what they're considering,

307

: 00:17:48

timeless info, fundamental

concepts or generalized knowledge.

308

: 00:17:54

So you're, there's no point in

really covering that stuff that

309

: 00:17:59

has near 100% consensus, especially

when AI mode is the future, when

310

: 00:18:05

people are migrating to perplexity

and clawed and HGBT and et cetera.

311

: 00:18:11

There's just no point in doing it because

you're never gonna get sourced, ever.

312

: 00:18:15

You're never gonna get cited, ever.

313

: 00:18:17

So this really pretty much covers the what

is X thing, unless it's like something

314

: 00:18:22

that is nuanced and emerging and evolving.

315

: 00:18:25

If it's like a timeless, classic

thing, like what is, I don't

316

: 00:18:30

know, demand gen marketing.

317

: 00:18:31

I mean, very unlikely that that's

gonna have new information.

318

: 00:18:36

It might.

319

: 00:18:37

But the writing is on the wall here.

320

: 00:18:40

Um, facts that are timeless or stable.

321

: 00:18:42

this includes things that, um, are basic,

established historical information.

322

: 00:18:48

It's very unlikely that, um, you're

ever gonna get cited in here.

323

: 00:18:51

And so I think that was a really good

learning and validating to, to see,

324

: 00:18:57

um, this is the direction we're going.

325

: 00:18:58

Yeah.

326

: 00:18:59

Justin: So does that just basically

killed informational SEO as a strategy

327

: 00:19:03

or it just means that people have

to play that game a different way?

328

: 00:19:08

Gaetano DiNardi: Well, I think you'd

have to ask yourself like, uh, is the

329

: 00:19:12

informational questions people are

asking stuff that is, is already been

330

: 00:19:19

answered a million times and there's not

much newness that you can add to to it.

331

: 00:19:26

Uh, I think in cyber tech

there's probably a lot of that.

332

: 00:19:30

Like, you know, how does phishing work?

333

: 00:19:33

You know, uh, what is identity

lifecycle management, stuff like that.

334

: 00:19:38

It's just what is network security?

335

: 00:19:40

All those sort of cyber glossary of

definitions that just never really change.

336

: 00:19:45

Maybe, maybe some of the newer ones

evolve, but for the most part, a lot

337

: 00:19:48

of the classic stuff never changes.

338

: 00:19:50

And so, um, you know, you have

to ask yourself if you're a

339

: 00:19:53

challenger brand, like why do it?

340

: 00:19:55

I think this was the, the tried and

true B2B cyber tech, SEO playbook,

341

: 00:20:00

um, really for like a decade.

342

: 00:20:03

Uh, every single cyber tech

brand did the same thing.

343

: 00:20:06

Glossary of terms pages.

344

: 00:20:09

That was just what they did.

345

: 00:20:10

They all copied each other.

346

: 00:20:11

The first to ever do it

was Palo Alto Networks.

347

: 00:20:15

I think they did it in 2013

or: 2014

348

: 00:20:18

And then everybody else

followed suit and, and copied.

349

: 00:20:22

So I guess today, if you're

starting your your SEO strategy and

350

: 00:20:26

you're doing that, man, good luck.

351

: 00:20:28

Justin: So the other thread,

there's that informational thread,

352

: 00:20:31

and then the other kind of path

is uh, a search query that shows.

353

: 00:20:37

Purchase intent of some kind.

354

: 00:20:38

So like best identity

protection, theft provider.

355

: 00:20:42

And that's the case obviously

where people can be, can be

356

: 00:20:45

bidding as well for paid placement.

357

: 00:20:48

But people vie very strongly

for organic placement as well.

358

: 00:20:51

And then here you have the AI.

359

: 00:20:53

Making its own selection

of who to present.

360

: 00:20:56

And, and so one of the questions I

know that we're asking internally

361

: 00:20:59

where I work and other people are

obviously asking is like, how do you

362

: 00:21:01

get into to be one of those recommended

vendors in that prepared text?

363

: 00:21:06

Do we have any indication

of what we might need to do?

364

: 00:21:09

Gaetano DiNardi: Let's

show you an example.

365

: 00:21:11

Justin: right.

366

: 00:21:11

Gaetano DiNardi: So here's a tool

that I've been playing around with.

367

: 00:21:14

It's called Scrunch ai.

368

: 00:21:16

Um, disclaimer, I'm not a affiliate.

369

: 00:21:19

I have no association with this company.

370

: 00:21:21

I just like the tool and I'm using it.

371

: 00:21:25

you can track AI visibility for any

number of prompts associated with your

372

: 00:21:31

brand and get, um, information on what

third parties are ranking, how your

373

: 00:21:38

brand's ranking, what you can potentially

do to increase your visibility there.

374

: 00:21:43

So look at this one.

375

: 00:21:45

What is the best identity

theft protection solution?

376

: 00:21:50

Um, this particular client is called Aura,

and if we look in the citations for this

377

: 00:22:01

show, cited websites, what do you notice?

378

: 00:22:06

PC Mag

379

: 00:22:08

Justin: Right.

380

: 00:22:08

Gaetano DiNardi: Radar.

381

: 00:22:09

Tom's Guide.

382

: 00:22:11

Cnet Investopedia.

383

: 00:22:15

There's not one citation here.

384

: 00:22:19

For any actual brand page.

385

: 00:22:23

So you see the answer is Aura LifeLock by

Norton Identity Force, and you can even

386

: 00:22:30

hover over the citations there and see

in this particular case it was PC Mag,

387

: 00:22:36

um, and it was TechRadar getting the,

the, the, the credit for, for the source.

388

: 00:22:43

But the brands are showing up in

the, in the tech space answer,

389

: 00:22:48

but they're not being cited.

390

: 00:22:50

Their actual websites are not being cited.

391

: 00:22:53

And so this is a huge misconception

that a lot of companies have.

392

: 00:22:57

They think, yeah, we just need

to optimize our pages, right?

393

: 00:23:00

The thing we talked

about in the beginning.

394

: 00:23:02

Make our, make our

pages retrievable by ai.

395

: 00:23:05

Make sure they have chunk ability factored

in title tag, FAQs, structured data,

396

: 00:23:11

right schema, all that's important,

but you need that third party strategy.

397

: 00:23:20

There's no amount of first party

content on your own website

398

: 00:23:25

strategy that you can really do.

399

: 00:23:27

To guarantee that you're gonna

get pulled into these answers

400

: 00:23:30

for competitive queries.

401

: 00:23:32

and so it becomes really a third

party game in, in this case, right?

402

: 00:23:36

So this is a real live example, and

it's not that different from old school

403

: 00:23:41

where you wanted to do something called,

I, I used to call it SERP Domination.

404

: 00:23:45

SERP Domination Strategy, where you

would search for a query, you would

405

: 00:23:49

go through the 10, you have to do this

manually, but you would go through

406

: 00:23:53

like the top 10 ranking blue links.

407

: 00:23:55

You would do an audit of, all right,

you know, this is a high ranking page.

408

: 00:23:59

We're not mentioned.

409

: 00:24:00

What do we have to do

to work with that site?

410

: 00:24:02

This is almost that same thing now,

just expanded outside of Google.

411

: 00:24:08

It's really applying it to, you know,

chat, GBT, perplexity, cloud, et cetera.

412

: 00:24:14

Justin: So, I mean, first

off, this is super cool.

413

: 00:24:16

Uh, for those that are just listening

audio only, we will include a link

414

: 00:24:19

to scrunch in the show notes because

what we're seeing here is it's showing

415

: 00:24:24

all the kind of main assistance chat,

GBT perplexity, Claude AI overviews,

416

: 00:24:29

and looking at presence position.

417

: 00:24:31

And sentiment and what, what I came away

with from what you're just showing, Gaana

418

: 00:24:36

was like these big mainstream publications

like PC Mag or Toms Guide or whoever,

419

: 00:24:42

they're like the, the LM is essentially

kind of outsourcing its judgment to

420

: 00:24:46

them to some degree, and using them as

proxies of that sort of consensus view.

421

: 00:24:50

It seems.

422

: 00:24:51

Gaetano DiNardi: That's right.

423

: 00:24:51

That's right.

424

: 00:24:53

And what's great about this is you

can see how important third parties

425

: 00:24:57

are in the overall dashboard.

426

: 00:25:00

So for the set of prompts that I am

monitoring, you can see the breakdown of.

427

: 00:25:07

Citation by brand,

competitor, and third party.

428

: 00:25:11

And so again, it's debunking this huge

misconception that executives have.

429

: 00:25:16

They think that so much of this is

reliant on your own website strategy.

430

: 00:25:20

It's actually the opposite.

431

: 00:25:21

It's like a 85, 15 90 10 split, like

for the competitive bottom of funnel,

432

: 00:25:28

what I used to call money terms.

433

: 00:25:30

You know, you can call 'em

money prompts, whatever.

434

: 00:25:33

Um, it's like a 90 10 game.

435

: 00:25:35

I.

436

: 00:25:35

They pull this information off,

especially for high volume stuff.

437

: 00:25:40

They pull this information.

438

: 00:25:41

Look, look what's getting

the most amount of responses.

439

: 00:25:44

NerdWallet security.org.

440

: 00:25:46

CNET security.org.

441

: 00:25:49

Again, Tom's guide.

442

: 00:25:51

There's the first one You see that it's

not a third party is Norton, but so

443

: 00:25:56

much of this is third party affiliates.

444

: 00:25:59

and I think that just might be, um, you

know, uh, sort of a full circle moment

445

: 00:26:04

for where we're going in SEO and I think

it's also M'S mechanism for anti-spam

446

: 00:26:14

antiga, um, you know, pushback, right?

447

: 00:26:18

Because you can, you can quickly see how.

448

: 00:26:22

SEOs would figure out a way to manipulate

this if it, if it was, you know, more

449

: 00:26:26

of a, what you can do on your own

website came if, if that was the case,

450

: 00:26:30

everybody would just do top 10 best

lists for every single thing possible,

451

: 00:26:34

and then that would get pulled into

LLMs, but that's not what we're seeing.

452

: 00:26:39

Justin: Is it that different from like

the big innovation of Google that set

453

: 00:26:43

it apart from other search engines?

454

: 00:26:44

As I understand it was like the

introduced this idea of like domain

455

: 00:26:49

authority and, and looking at back

links and saying like, all right, if

456

: 00:26:52

a site gets a lot of links from other.

457

: 00:26:54

High authority sites, then it's

a more reputable site and people

458

: 00:26:57

obviously learn to game that with

link buying and and whatever.

459

: 00:26:59

But this is almost just another

type of backlink, like a citation.

460

: 00:27:04

But still the trust and the authority

of the site that's linking to

461

: 00:27:09

you is what's really determining

whether you appear, isn't it?

462

: 00:27:12

Gaetano DiNardi: Um, yes and no.

463

: 00:27:15

Um, I think what I've seen is that

the relevance matters a lot more now.

464

: 00:27:20

It just so happens that in this

category there's mega domains.

465

: 00:27:25

So in the, in the instance of identity

theft, you know, it's such a valuable

466

: 00:27:29

commercial category that you're

gonna see the big players, right?

467

: 00:27:32

So you're gonna see the Toms

guides, the C Nets, the NerdWallet.

468

: 00:27:37

If NerdWallet is in it,

you know, it's financially.

469

: 00:27:41

Profitable, right?

470

: 00:27:42

They're making bank off this.

471

: 00:27:44

But you also see some smaller

players too, like security.org,

472

: 00:27:47

a little more niche, but because it's a

security focused domain, it actually has

473

: 00:27:56

even more citations than Tom's Guide.

474

: 00:27:58

And Tom's guide is like probably double

the authority, overall authority.

475

: 00:28:03

So you have this aspect

of relevance, by topic.

476

: 00:28:08

That I think matters a lot.

477

: 00:28:09

So what's the takeaway

for CMOs and marketers?

478

: 00:28:12

It's, do I need to be in NerdWallet?

479

: 00:28:17

Maybe.

480

: 00:28:18

but you're probably better

off, uh, finding a more

481

: 00:28:21

relevant, less authority source.

482

: 00:28:24

Like those can also be great.

483

: 00:28:25

So like if I go to a different

project, I'm just gonna go to this

484

: 00:28:30

one in cyber tech that I'm working on.

485

: 00:28:32

Um, if I go to sources.

486

: 00:28:36

I go to third party

487

: 00:28:40

now this is B2B cyber tech.

488

: 00:28:42

Think like enterprise,

489

: 00:28:43

Justin: Mm-hmm.

490

: 00:28:44

Gaetano DiNardi: you're

gonna see solutions.

491

: 00:28:46

Review Sentinel One,

you're gonna see Gartner.

492

: 00:28:51

So right away you're seeing like a

different caliber of, of websites in here.

493

: 00:28:56

Which, you know, it would be a mistake

for a company like this to think that

494

: 00:28:59

they should go and work with like the

highest overall authority domains.

495

: 00:29:04

Like, maybe that would help, but you'd

probably be better off, you know,

496

: 00:29:09

going to solutions review and seeing,

is this a pay to play or, or not,

497

: 00:29:14

you know, this, this looks like it

potentially could be a pay to play.

498

: 00:29:18

So you need to figure out, you know,

how to get on these, these pages,

499

: 00:29:22

build, build some kind of relationship

with these brands and figure it out.

500

: 00:29:26

Justin: So that, that kind of

gets to where my mind was going.

501

: 00:29:28

Like if you're, a B2B CMO or SEO

program manager and you're trying

502

: 00:29:33

to figure out this new landscape,

obviously your mind goes to like, how

503

: 00:29:37

do I, how my presence in these kind of

mainstream prestige review type sources?

504

: 00:29:44

Is that what we should be thinking about?

505

: 00:29:46

Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, that's right.

506

: 00:29:47

That's right.

507

: 00:29:48

It's, I think it's um, you

can call it Link Building 2.0.

508

: 00:29:53

I think, uh, you know, if you're a

bigger brand that has like PR and comms

509

: 00:29:59

and broader mark comms, this is a skill

they're gonna have to learn how to pick

510

: 00:30:04

up because it's, it's gonna matter, right?

511

: 00:30:07

So if you can, if you can work on

that with your, uh, comms team, I

512

: 00:30:11

mean, that's gonna just help a ton.

513

: 00:30:14

'cause this is a new, new world we're

in where, you know, mentions, um.

514

: 00:30:19

You can, you can argue even

now that they're almost equally

515

: 00:30:23

as important as, as backlinks.

516

: 00:30:25

Justin: If I think about that old

world that I referred to where you

517

: 00:30:28

could have, uh, a digitally savvy

startup come in and kind of like

518

: 00:30:33

find some way to game their way.

519

: 00:30:36

To the top of the, the pile

and get a lot of traffic.

520

: 00:30:40

it seems almost like, brand incumbency

is a much bigger moat and it's gonna be

521

: 00:30:45

very hard for a startup to like break into

that without doing that brand work first.

522

: 00:30:51

Gaetano DiNardi: That's absolutely right.

523

: 00:30:52

if you don't have that brand foundation.

524

: 00:30:56

It's gonna be really tough.

525

: 00:30:58

Now, if you can somehow brute force

your way onto all these lists, then

526

: 00:31:03

yeah, you know, maybe you can get

some quick traction, but it ain't

527

: 00:31:06

easy getting on these lists, man.

528

: 00:31:08

If you're a no name, why

should they work with you?

529

: 00:31:11

Why are they gonna add you to their list?

530

: 00:31:14

Like what's in it for them?

531

: 00:31:16

Very little to nothing.

532

: 00:31:18

So, you know, um, it's not as easy

as everyone is, is, is thinking, you

533

: 00:31:23

know, just, Hey, just get someone to

do outreach and get on these lists.

534

: 00:31:26

Yeah.

535

: 00:31:26

In theory, that makes sense.

536

: 00:31:27

But, you know, I, I, I haven't

seen anyone successfully do that.

537

: 00:31:31

least not yet.

538

: 00:31:32

And so I think that's gonna be

probably the next, wave of things

539

: 00:31:36

that's gonna come out as part of

this new AI era that we're in.

540

: 00:31:40

Justin: I mean, you, you used the

words pay to play and I, I'm not

541

: 00:31:44

gonna point at anyone in particular,

but I think we all sort of know.

542

: 00:31:47

Some of these major, uh, sources that

are considered very reputable, that

543

: 00:31:52

enterprise buyers look at do have

a definite pay-to-play component.

544

: 00:31:56

So I guess two, two things for

me, like number one, like how

545

: 00:32:00

much is, is the game just rigged?

546

: 00:32:01

And, and number two, like if you

were trying to like advise or were

547

: 00:32:06

part of like a gorilla startup

today trying to break in, like what,

548

: 00:32:09

what would your access point be?

549

: 00:32:11

What would you be thinking about?

550

: 00:32:12

Gaetano DiNardi: So to the question

of, uh, how easily gameable is this?

551

: 00:32:17

you know, what I could tell you

is there's, there's a lot of lucky

552

: 00:32:23

natural stuff that happens for you

when you're automatically a big brand.

553

: 00:32:28

So like, here's like an example.

554

: 00:32:31

I will go back to that, prompt on

like identity access management

555

: 00:32:35

tools, and we'll just look at this.

556

: 00:32:38

So the, the most, um, cited

page is this is larry.com

557

: 00:32:44

page, so top 13 IAM tools.

558

: 00:32:49

And this is not a, uh,

affiliate site or a third party.

559

: 00:32:53

This is actually like a provider

just doing the tear down.

560

: 00:32:57

And, um, if you go to the list of

tools, they of course no surprise,

561

: 00:33:02

promote themselves at the top.

562

: 00:33:04

And then if you look at who else

they include on these lists, right?

563

: 00:33:09

Okta Cyber Arc One login, Microsoft

Enterra SailPoint, RSA, secure id.

564

: 00:33:22

Paying identity Semantic, ForgeRock,

IBM, Oracle Duo, like did any of

565

: 00:33:35

those brands work really hard or

do outreach to get on this list?

566

: 00:33:39

No, they just got on this list

because they're a big brand.

567

: 00:33:44

So that's part of the effect

that I'm talking about where,

568

: 00:33:48

you know, being a big brand just.

569

: 00:33:50

Gets you more free stuff, and

that's just what, what happens?

570

: 00:33:55

can, can a list like that be gamed?

571

: 00:33:57

I mean, probably not, right?

572

: 00:33:58

Because they're, they're just

trying to promote themselves as

573

: 00:34:00

the top ranking tool on that list.

574

: 00:34:03

Maybe they, now you could look

into the back links to that page

575

: 00:34:06

and say, all right, maybe they're

buying links, you know, to some

576

: 00:34:09

extent that still could work.

577

: 00:34:12

And then what was the second

half of the question again?

578

: 00:34:14

Justin: gaming it and all right.

579

: 00:34:15

Let's say you, you are just starting out.

580

: 00:34:18

You're a new startup without

any brand advantage, and you are

581

: 00:34:21

Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.

582

: 00:34:22

Justin: into this world where,

you know, Gartner isn't covering

583

: 00:34:24

you, Tom Scott isn't covering you,

whatever, whatever your sources of

584

: 00:34:29

Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.

585

: 00:34:30

Justin: What, what do you do for SEO?

586

: 00:34:31

Do you even consider SEO or do you,

do you focus your energy elsewhere?

587

: 00:34:38

Gaetano DiNardi: Um, I mean, it

depends on, I think, how competitive

588

: 00:34:42

the category is and where I might have

like an advantage in, in doing content.

589

: 00:34:48

So, and, and it also depends

like, am I at ground, ground zero

590

: 00:34:51

with nothing, nothing, nothing.

591

: 00:34:53

You know, if, if I'm at nothing,

nothing, nothing, I'm not doing SEO.

592

: 00:34:56

There's no chance I'm doing

it from absolute zero.

593

: 00:34:59

Nothing, man.

594

: 00:35:01

You've gotta go do some

foundational work first.

595

: 00:35:04

Like you've gotta drive customer

reviews, you've gotta do probably

596

: 00:35:07

LinkedIn, founder led marketing, maybe

drive up a newsletter of some sort.

597

: 00:35:12

And you also need to bring like

a unique like position to, to

598

: 00:35:16

like your overall content and why

should people even listen to you.

599

: 00:35:20

Um, I think that that matters too.

600

: 00:35:21

So you probably need to do like,

you know, a podcast interview tour.

601

: 00:35:26

You probably need to

be a guest on webinars.

602

: 00:35:28

You probably need to do some

like small local events.

603

: 00:35:31

You know, you gotta do some

stuff to, like, you gotta

604

: 00:35:34

grow your social following.

605

: 00:35:36

I think you need to do a lot

of those foundational things

606

: 00:35:38

before you just start doing SEO.

607

: 00:35:40

so that's where, if you're

like a founder that has say.

608

: 00:35:44

A personal brand of some kind already has

like a following that's pretty decent.

609

: 00:35:49

Maybe you already have like

a, a newsletter or a substack

610

: 00:35:52

that people follow or like it.

611

: 00:35:55

What I see a lot of is, you know, X big

wig, they get a little bit of a boost.

612

: 00:36:00

'cause if you are.

613

: 00:36:01

You know, X head of SEO at Amazon and

now you're doing a AI search tool.

614

: 00:36:05

Yeah.

615

: 00:36:05

People are probably gonna be more

willing to give you a look because,

616

: 00:36:09

oh, this was the former XSEO at Amazon.

617

: 00:36:11

Like, this person's gotta

know their stuff, right?

618

: 00:36:14

So I think you've gotta do at least

a year or two of foundational work.

619

: 00:36:20

You can't just do SEO

at the gates anymore.

620

: 00:36:21

You're gonna fall flat on your face

and you're gonna be disappointed.

621

: 00:36:25

Justin: So it's maybe that point

where you have found product

622

: 00:36:29

market fit, and you're now trying

to scale up your growth channels.

623

: 00:36:35

that's where it

624

: 00:36:35

Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.

625

: 00:36:37

Not only do you need product market

fit, you need like market channel fit.

626

: 00:36:43

You, you, you, you need

market channel fit.

627

: 00:36:45

Like is like, is this channel the way

that you can actually, be successful

628

: 00:36:49

in telling your story, promoting

your brand, promoting your product.

629

: 00:36:53

Does it like, does it even work?

630

: 00:36:56

Somebody was asking me about

like, so there's this guy, startup

631

: 00:36:59

founder hit me up for advice.

632

: 00:37:01

Uh, is SEO worth it?

633

: 00:37:03

Um, he's solving a, uh, a old

problem with a way, a super new way.

634

: 00:37:11

Of of doing things.

635

: 00:37:12

Let me just see if I can

summarize what this is.

636

: 00:37:15

Um, AI simulations for hiring.

637

: 00:37:19

You can see candidates.

638

: 00:37:21

Yeah, you can see candidates

in action before you hire them.

639

: 00:37:24

AI simulations that reveal

what interviews can't get.

640

: 00:37:28

Real job performance and realistic

scenarios cut bad hiring by 70%.

641

: 00:37:34

This is a whole new way of

solving an age old problem.

642

: 00:37:37

Uh, and if you think about SEO,

no one's searching for this.

643

: 00:37:40

There's no demand.

644

: 00:37:42

So you would entirely have to base your

strategy on consensus and then flip.

645

: 00:37:47

I.

646

: 00:37:48

It's so tough to get that

to work consensus and flip.

647

: 00:37:53

I, I don't know, I gotta

maybe brand that or something.

648

: 00:37:55

It's tough, man to do it that way.

649

: 00:37:57

Ideally people would just be

searching for that thing that, that,

650

: 00:38:01

you know, that they want to do.

651

: 00:38:02

And I think, I think, uh, pep Pep was

talking about this too, like the, one

652

: 00:38:06

of the most important factors for like

being a successful startup is like

653

: 00:38:10

go after a big market with a lot of

demand already and just disrupt it.

654

: 00:38:15

You know, the, the, I don't know if

this ai, uh, interview thing is like,

655

: 00:38:22

uh, I don't know if it falls into that.

656

: 00:38:24

You know, I don't know

if that, that, that's it.

657

: 00:38:26

So yeah, basically I told this guy,

no, don't do SEO, it's a waste of time.

658

: 00:38:32

Justin: We've mentioned brand a few times,

and one of the things that I find really

659

: 00:38:35

interesting is just like how brand has

had a bit of a renaissance as a concept.

660

: 00:38:40

I.

661

: 00:38:41

in the, at least in the LinkedIn,

uh, echo chamber that I inhabit.

662

: 00:38:46

and you've talked about that a few

times in your posts about like SEO,

663

: 00:38:51

maybe how brand influences it, or SEO

as brand in a time when, you know,

664

: 00:38:55

you're not necessarily attributing

the click anymore on a page.

665

: 00:39:00

How do you, how do you think about that?

666

: 00:39:03

Gaetano DiNardi: Um, well,

obviously, you know, if you have

667

: 00:39:07

a steady stream of branded search

demand and volume and people are.

668

: 00:39:12

Looking through to your site from

branded search, that's a tremendous

669

: 00:39:16

benefit, um, because it almost guarantees

to an extent that you're gonna be

670

: 00:39:23

able to maintain, traffic levels.

671

: 00:39:27

Now, some of that branded traffic

is not like buyer traffic.

672

: 00:39:31

It might be investor traffic.

673

: 00:39:33

You know, I need a job traffic.

674

: 00:39:36

But still, it, it's, it's good that

you have that brand moat because.

675

: 00:39:41

And, and a lot of sites that I

audit and do reporting on, you

676

: 00:39:44

know, we work on a lot of content.

677

: 00:39:46

What we find is, let's say we did

50 net new pages in the course of a

678

: 00:39:53

year, um, or it could be a mix of up

content updates, refreshes and net new.

679

: 00:40:00

What ends up happening is, let's say the

site has a large repository of content.

680

: 00:40:05

Well, we only worked on 50 specific

pages, but the site has hundreds of pages.

681

: 00:40:10

Those 50 pages that we worked on where

impressions and clicks actually grew, just

682

: 00:40:16

as many that we didn't work on floundered.

683

: 00:40:20

So it actually offset everything.

684

: 00:40:24

It actually, so in a previous world,

you wouldn't have so much floundering,

685

: 00:40:28

you would have more consistency

'cause things didn't flounder as hard.

686

: 00:40:32

So then the 50 new pages that you

built or refreshed would grow a lot.

687

: 00:40:37

And then brand would ideally

maintain its balance.

688

: 00:40:40

And so now you have a story to tell

where, look, traffic is wow, doing

689

: 00:40:43

super well, but now what's happening is

those other pages that are floundering

690

: 00:40:47

because of AI overviews and such.

691

: 00:40:50

So you're working twice as hard to stay

where you were, you're, you're right

692

: 00:40:57

where you were and you did all that work.

693

: 00:41:00

So now that leaves, if you

don't, if you're not good at

694

: 00:41:02

framing it, what's gonna happen?

695

: 00:41:03

Executives are gonna say, damn.

696

: 00:41:06

You know, we're investing,

we did 50 new pages.

697

: 00:41:08

Content traffic is exactly the same level.

698

: 00:41:12

Well, you have to look

at the back end of that.

699

: 00:41:14

What is happening on demo

requests, uh, what is happening

700

: 00:41:17

on overall site engagement.

701

: 00:41:19

it's very likely that those pages

that floundered were maybe top

702

: 00:41:23

of funnel informational pages

that weren't doing much anyway.

703

: 00:41:26

And so basically what's the point on brand

if you have that brand stability keeping

704

: 00:41:31

you at at a basic level, it's really just

gonna help you round things out overall,

705

: 00:41:37

and so that that is really important.

706

: 00:41:39

Justin: So I had to like, summarize and

tell me if this is accurate or not, what

707

: 00:41:43

I'm hearing from you about SEO today?

708

: 00:41:45

on page signals matter a lot less

than, uh, off page signals, mentions,

709

: 00:41:52

you know, references, citations,

It's not, you know, the, the grow

710

: 00:41:56

quickly that it might once have been,

certainly not the place to start.

711

: 00:42:01

And you're really fighting for

a much smaller share for a piece

712

: 00:42:07

of a much smaller pie, let's say.

713

: 00:42:09

Because a lot of the things that used

to be answered via search and a click

714

: 00:42:12

to a website where maybe someone

could say, oh, who's this now that

715

: 00:42:14

I'm here is now answered directly,

zero click in, uh, in the first page.

716

: 00:42:20

And, and so you're really just

competing to appear in that

717

: 00:42:22

consideration set for these lower,

buying intent type of queries.

718

: 00:42:28

Tell me if I got all that right

and where I might be wrong.

719

: 00:42:31

Gaetano DiNardi: No, I, I

think a lot of it is good.

720

: 00:42:33

Um, y you know, I think I would

summarize it for you like this.

721

: 00:42:36

let's think about top of

funnel, middle Funnel.

722

: 00:42:38

Bottom funnel.

723

: 00:42:39

I.

724

: 00:42:39

In the new world, this is gonna be

the best way to summarize everything.

725

: 00:42:43

What's getting killed the most by

far top of funnel that's just getting

726

: 00:42:47

wiped out, right, for the most part.

727

: 00:42:50

And so what you can think about

then is previously all this traffic

728

: 00:42:55

that websites were getting was

really a lot of top of funnel, so

729

: 00:43:00

it was tire kicker traffic anyway.

730

: 00:43:03

Why do you think there's so many reports

now of traffic down CTR down, but demo

731

: 00:43:07

requests up, revenue up because AI

is just wiping out traffic you never

732

: 00:43:13

should have had in the first place.

733

: 00:43:14

There's no business for you

ranking for what is X and all this

734

: 00:43:17

other top of funnel stuff, right?

735

: 00:43:19

This is a quick, remember the

thing I showed you on Claude Leak?

736

: 00:43:23

They don't want you

gonna a website for that.

737

: 00:43:25

They just wanna serve to you right there.

738

: 00:43:26

Bang.

739

: 00:43:28

All right, so that actually makes me feel

a lot better that the clicks we're getting

740

: 00:43:32

are not gonna be as many tire kickers.

741

: 00:43:34

That's good, but it's just so

hard for everybody to get on board

742

: 00:43:38

with this reality of less traffic.

743

: 00:43:39

Everybody just punched in

the gut over less traffic.

744

: 00:43:42

It's like, who gives a shit?

745

: 00:43:45

You know?

746

: 00:43:45

It's, it's better quality.

747

: 00:43:47

All right, so top of Funnel Check.

748

: 00:43:49

We've covered that.

749

: 00:43:50

We'll skip middle of funnel

because I think there's a

750

: 00:43:52

lot to be unpacked on that.

751

: 00:43:55

Bottom of funnel as we saw with the Aura

Example and many others that we talked

752

: 00:43:59

about are really big on third party

citations, reviews on Gartner, some of the

753

: 00:44:05

affiliates that have survived, um, the pay

to plays and then, just overall like brand

754

: 00:44:11

pr, getting coverage, stuff like that.

755

: 00:44:15

Of course you have the X best list if

you can form some kind of collaboration

756

: 00:44:18

and partnerships with companies that

are doing a lot of content marketing.

757

: 00:44:22

That are ranking for those top X best

tool reviews, get on there somehow.

758

: 00:44:27

That's also good.

759

: 00:44:29

But as I showed you, often that is

just a factor of being a big brand.

760

: 00:44:34

But anyway, at the bottom of the funnel,

it's really becoming more oriented to

761

: 00:44:38

third party, especially if you are in a

hyper competitive high volume category.

762

: 00:44:42

and then you have to focus on Gartner G

two, like those peer sourced review sites.

763

: 00:44:48

They, they matter.

764

: 00:44:50

No way around that.

765

: 00:44:52

And so where does that leave

you with a lot of opportunity?

766

: 00:44:54

Middle of funnel, that long tail

query, fan out, nuanced, you

767

: 00:45:01

know, is it worth, is X worth it?

768

: 00:45:04

You know, bring those new aspects of

content, to, to the answers, right?

769

: 00:45:08

Like, don't just, uh,

go with the consensus.

770

: 00:45:10

Maybe you can, maybe you can flip it here.

771

: 00:45:12

I think there's a lot to be

unpacked in that middle of funnel.

772

: 00:45:15

To me, that's where there's

gonna be a lot of SEO value.

773

: 00:45:18

I think that's the way

I would think about it.

774

: 00:45:19

Top of funnel cut, bottom of

funnel, really third party heavy.

775

: 00:45:24

Hit the middle of funnel hard

find, middle of funnel and nail it.

776

: 00:45:28

That to me is, is really where it's going.

777

: 00:45:30

I.

778

: 00:45:31

Justin: And middle of funnel being those

people that they're like interested in

779

: 00:45:34

the category, they're not yet at the

point of like, which X should I buy?

780

: 00:45:38

But that place where they're, they're

also just not like, what is x?

781

: 00:45:42

If that's where you can come in

782

: 00:45:43

Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah,

783

: 00:45:43

Justin: perspective

784

: 00:45:44

Gaetano DiNardi: yeah, yeah, I

would, I would use something called

785

: 00:45:47

the problem identification chart.

786

: 00:45:48

That's what I use.

787

: 00:45:50

To sell my SEO services.

788

: 00:45:51

I mean, I, I have this down by, it's

like in my head, I don't need to

789

: 00:45:55

look at a spreadsheet anymore, but

I actually have a spreadsheet called

790

: 00:45:58

SEO Problem Identification chart.

791

: 00:46:00

this is actually a technique

from a guy named Keenan.

792

: 00:46:03

'cause I, I read a lot of sales books

and my life, um, and it helped me.

793

: 00:46:08

But like, this is how I would

think about, you know, what is

794

: 00:46:10

middle of funnel for any business.

795

: 00:46:13

So I'll just show it to you.

796

: 00:46:15

And if anybody wants to make their

own, just go read Keenan's Gap

797

: 00:46:18

selling book, and he breaks down.

798

: 00:46:20

problem identification chart.

799

: 00:46:22

It's genius.

800

: 00:46:23

All right, so you start with the problem.

801

: 00:46:26

You, you don't even think about top of

funnel, bottom of funnel or whatever.

802

: 00:46:30

You just start with problem.

803

: 00:46:31

So in the cases of SEO, and actually

I need to refactor this for ai.

804

: 00:46:37

But in traditional SEO, these were

some of the most common problems.

805

: 00:46:40

Organic traffic is flat or not growing, or

organic traffic is not producing revenue.

806

: 00:46:46

It's not attracting the right people.

807

: 00:46:48

This, I would say today is actually a

good thing if this is happening, but a

808

: 00:46:52

problem was in the past, you know, organic

traffic is primarily branded search, and

809

: 00:46:57

we don't have any non-branded visibility.

810

: 00:47:00

So what's the impact, you know, not being

found for a non-brand commercial search.

811

: 00:47:05

For attracting the wrong people, it

would be sales team working irrelevant

812

: 00:47:09

leads, wasted effort on bad content.

813

: 00:47:12

If traffic is not producing revenue,

then it's missed revenue targets not

814

: 00:47:16

enough pipeline for sales team, but

it also overlaps with, um, sales team

815

: 00:47:22

potentially working irrelevant leads,

irrelevant content, stuff like that.

816

: 00:47:26

And then where the goal is for

constant strategy is the root causes.

817

: 00:47:31

Why are these things happening?

818

: 00:47:33

And this is what, like content marketers

and stuff, they don't get deep enough

819

: 00:47:36

into their business to know this.

820

: 00:47:38

If you can map out all the root

causes of all those problems, then

821

: 00:47:42

you're gonna have content for days.

822

: 00:47:44

Um, so this could be a

content piece, right?

823

: 00:47:46

something like, uh, ineffective

content process or content targets.

824

: 00:47:52

At the top of funnel instead

of commercial keywords.

825

: 00:47:55

Then another idea, lack of proper

keyword analysis or content

826

: 00:47:58

misaligned to search intent content

decay, keyword cannibalization.

827

: 00:48:03

You know, uh, content team doesn't

understand customers and their problems.

828

: 00:48:07

A content piece could be, you know,

how to better understand customer

829

: 00:48:10

jobs to be done for better SEO output.

830

: 00:48:13

Right.

831

: 00:48:13

So right off the bat, this thing

is just fueling ideas and then

832

: 00:48:17

you could, you know, with AI

you could accelerate this a lot.

833

: 00:48:19

You could pop it into

Chad, GBT, have it expand.

834

: 00:48:22

So that's where AI can also be useful.

835

: 00:48:24

But I would, for middle of funnel,

I would start with problem impact

836

: 00:48:27

root causes, build out a problem,

identification chart, go crazy.

837

: 00:48:33

It's not stuff that has volume

usually, but that's okay.

838

: 00:48:36

Justin: love that take and I think it's

a, it's a great place to, to wrap us

839

: 00:48:39

up on, because it's kind of hopeful.

840

: 00:48:41

The glass half full perspective,

all that traffic you're

841

: 00:48:43

getting that never converted.

842

: 00:48:44

It doesn't matter Anyways, there's this

new kind of blue ocean that you could,

843

: 00:48:48

uh, play in around the middle of funnel.

844

: 00:48:50

And at least the path

is clear on the bottom.

845

: 00:48:53

Thank you for, uh, being our guide to

the wild world of SEO in the age of ai.

846

: 00:48:58

really appreciate you coming on.

847

: 00:49:00

Gaetano DiNardi: Hey.

848

: 00:49:00

Pleasure.

849

: 00:49:01

really appreciate it and it's been fun.

850

: 00:49:03

Thanks again.