Scaling from $100M to $1B ARR as a RevOps Leader - Cody Guymon

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

Welcome to RevOps FM.

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Today, we are continuing our series,

looking at truly unified RevOps

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teams, teams that are actually

supporting the entire go to market

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organization for marketing to sales

to CS and exploring what does this

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actually look like in practice?

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What are the things that make it work?

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What are some of the pitfalls?

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And we are chatting with Cody Geimann,

COO of GTM operations at Mercado.

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Which happens to be one

of my favorite platforms.

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I'm a big fan of Workato.

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Cody's been in RevOps for over 13 years

and he's helped navigate revenue teams

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through some really incredible periods of

growth, like when he was COO at Qualtrics,

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took them through an 8 billion acquisition

by SAP followed by a 27 billion IPO.

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So he's been in the trenches.

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He's got the scars to prove it.

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And he's got a lot of wisdom to share.

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I am excited to dig in.

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Cody, welcome to the show.

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Cody Guymon: Hey, thanks

so much for having me.

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Appreciate it.

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Justin Norris: I would love to just start.

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think a lot in my own work about

like, what is this thing that we do?

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What is it for?

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What is the actual job?

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Because it's sort of like,

glue that sits between a lot of

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other pieces of the business.

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How do you think about the scope

and mandate of GTM operations

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through your own experience?

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Cody Guymon: I love that.

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I love the glue.

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You said the glue.

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I often think of the quarterback I

played baseball as a catcher, kind of

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a field general type of position, but

I think Rev Ops really is that right?

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And we're enabling go to market

to exceed, high growth goals.

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That's ultimately the end goal.

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And there's a wide variety of ways in

which RevOps can help accomplish that.

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So, I like Glue, Quarterback, Enabler,

we're here to make sure that, the

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revenue teams hit and exceed targets.

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Justin Norris: One of the, themes

that I often explore and just things

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that I reflect on in my own day to

day is the extent to which we're

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both supporting those teams and

helping those teams and giving them

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things that they asked for, and at

the same time, there's a reciprocal.

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you mentioned the word coach, you know,

the coach is also kind of evaluating

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the performance of those teams and and

driving them in different directions and

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How do you thread that needle personally

between like I'm here to help you.

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I'm here to support you But

I'm also here to like keep you

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honest and keep you on your toes

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Cody Guymon: it's all about the approach.

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I think personally, Cause you know, we're

here to help, here to support, here to

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enable, but at the same time, we have

access to a lot of data and insights that.

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Sales reps don't have, I mean,

they're doing what I think is

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the hardest job on the planet.

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carrying a quota and 50 percent of their

pay is tied to it and all that good

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stuff, but we, get advantage points.

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So I think the approach is just the key

is like, even with the coaching, it's

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still, I'm here to help say, Hey, I'm

seeing this on the insights I'm seeing

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that your average sales price is declining

quarter of a quarter and our win rates

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decreasing in the inbound channel.

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Like what are we doing there?

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And it's like collaborative,

what do you think's happening?

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are we getting desperate?

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So that's why the ASP is falling.

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Mike.

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why aren't we holding value stronger?

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and I think that you can thread

the line as long as the approach

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is super collaborative, right?

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As soon as it becomes ivory tower,

Rev Ops folks saying, Hey, this, that,

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and the other just doesn't feel right.

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we've had coaches that are ones that'll

get in there with you and help you

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figure it out and really work with

you for me, baseball on my swing or.

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Whatever it might be.

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So I think it's all about the

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approach.

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Justin Norris: It's interesting in your

example, you're kind of modeling working

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with, reps down in the field to what

extent do you find it useful to go and

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actually go one on one with members

of revenue teams, go to market teams

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versus working through their manager,

their coach, the leaders of those teams.

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Cody Guymon: it's always good to get

a pulse of the field at the rep level.

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I meet with reps.

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I wouldn't say that I do it weekly,

but every quarter for sure, I'm

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meeting with reps every month.

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I'm meeting with reps.

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and so I think it's important to feel

the pulse reps and I'll mix that up.

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High performers, medium performers,

that sort of thing, just to get a feel.

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But then for the most part, working

through sales leadership, I mean,

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even in my role, I'm working with,

the business leader segment leader

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kind of level for most of it.

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And then, folks on my team, whether

they're in sales ops or enablement,

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they're going to also have counterparts

that are business units that they support.

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And so we'll work through kind of a

combo of sales leadership and ops team

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members that support those business

units to kind of work collectively.

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For the most part, but I still like to

get a pulse by meeting with reps for sure.

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Justin Norris: The examples

that we've chatted about very

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briefly so far, sales examples.

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very much.

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and you have a sales ops background.

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So that's the place where you

started from, just as I was

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looking at your LinkedIn profile.

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It's interesting to me when I chat with

folks about, what makes you nervous?

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What do you worry about when you think

about a unified function, at least the

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people that are outside of sales ops,

like on the marketing side of the CS side,

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common refrain is, Oh, we're just going

to get like swallowed up by sales ops

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and just be, sort of on the periphery.

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And it's still really going

to be very sales centric.

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and our concerns are going

to be pushed to the side.

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How do you think about that?

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Particularly as you've come more from

a sales centric place about keeping all

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those functions in, view and in scope.

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Cody Guymon: so just to

back up a little bit.

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The scope that I have here at

work auto is, beyond sales ops.

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Like you said, it's marketing ops.

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It's C.

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S.

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Ops.

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It's partner operations.

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It is sales ops.

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It's enablement.

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go to market data, deal desk,

compensation, those sort of functions.

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It's a great question and very observant.

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do have a sales ops background.

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So the things that I'm bringing up are

talking about, mainly sales reps and

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things of that nature, but I think all

the other functions need to have the

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same sales rep focus, I would say that to

my teams, like if you're marketing ops.

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And you're generating pipe and you have

SDRs and you have inbound and paid.

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Like, how is it converting

at the rep level?

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Are you sitting down with reps?

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Do they feel like the

quality is going up down?

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what does it look like?

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And even for partner ops, like we have

a partner ops function and, it's great.

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we want to look at our PMMs and what

we're generating and that's awesome.

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But what's happening at the rep level?

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Are they feeling like they're

working well with partners?

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Are they closing deals at a clip?

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That's appropriate.

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I know that I say it as you might say

as a sales operator, but I think every

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other organization needs to have the

same mentality like is what we're doing

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in our function, whether it's marketing

ops or not, marketing ops, partner ops.

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Are we helping sales reps?

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When if we are, we're doing our job.

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If we're not, we're not doing our job.

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I don't care what metrics and

dashboards we have to make us feel good.

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We're not hitting revenue targets.

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We're not winning.

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And I think Mercado has that mentality.

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our head of marketing ops, Michael

fan, he's written automations that are

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happening in the background, and they're

generating pipeline at amazing clips.

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one of his recipes that he's built,

which is a workflow automation.

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is reaching out to people that

jump on our landing page, but

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don't fill out our demo request.

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If they leave the page and they're a

Mark Cato contact where Cato just in the

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background will meet you will email them

within five minutes and say, Hey, saw you

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jumped on a website to get a demo request.

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You didn't fill it out.

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Do you want to re engage?

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And that little recipe automation that he

built generated over 2 million, a pipeline

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and a quarter for our sellers to go win.

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And he's very focused on am I as an

ops leader generating pipe for our

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sellers to win, which I want all of

my leadership team to be thinking.

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The whole time.

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So really cool observation.

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Good question, but I

don't know if that helps.

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I would think everybody

should be thinking that way.

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no matter

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what org you're

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Justin Norris: I love it.

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And I actually was in, some meetup

of some kind where Michael was

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presenting and he presented that

automation that you just described

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and it was like jaws were dropping.

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it's really cool on some level, but

even beyond the technical part, what I

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find interesting is, the fact that he

is thinking about generating pipeline,

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not delivering something else that

somebody else asked for so that they

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can deliver pipeline, but in his own

right, and that is not a mindset.

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A lot of ops teams.

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Always have, a lot of them are

more in a service orientation type

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of posture do you cultivate that?

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Is that workado culture?

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Where does that come from for you?

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Cody Guymon: I think it's both.

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I think Mercado had it before I arrived.

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to Michael's credit, he's

been here a while to others.

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Credit this we're here before I

was, I've been here 18 months.

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So, it's definitely a workado culture

mindset, automate first, what can we do

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with our tool, drink our own Kool Aid,

all that type of stuff to go help win.

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And then, when I got on board, I

think I emphasized that as well.

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Like, how are we going

to go generate pipe?

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What are we going to go do to help

when, it's all of us collectively.

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So.

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yeah, I think it's a bit of both.

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I've always been pro very pro sales, in

my career of like helping sales when, and

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so that, might be, part of who I am as

well, but yeah, definitely it's a good

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combo when it was already here for sure.

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And then I'm trying to try and amp it up

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too.

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Justin Norris: So maybe we can

just dive a little bit deeper

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into the structure of your team.

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You mentioned some of the

functions that you support.

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Can you walk us through who's on

it and how you kind of staff those

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different areas of the business?

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Cody Guymon: Yeah, for sure.

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So we talked marketing ops, Michael fan.

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Uh, he has a team of about five.

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And so it is that team.

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We have partner ops led by

a guy named Ryan McCabe.

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He's got a team of one FTE and

two interns, a team of three.

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We have CS operations, customer success

operations, Tom McClavish runs that org.

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It's a team of two with

a couple of dotted lines.

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we have our sales ops organization,

which is five led by Maria Joseph.

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we have a field readiness org, which we

call it field readiness here, but it's,

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often called enablement at other orgs.

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Led by Chris Harper.

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It's a team of six.

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We have go to market compensation.

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So all variable comp for

all go to market functions.

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It's led by Sean Simpson.

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We have our deal desk team led by Rebecca

Rubico and she's, got a team of three

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supports from global, but wargs there.

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And then we have go to market analytics

and insights led by Tyler Lawson.

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It's a team of three right now.

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We're going to grow that to four,

hopefully five years soon, but.

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That's kind of the structure of my org.

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I think what's nice is the purview is you

kind of see end to end all of the funnel.

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You get to see, the whole view,

whereas at Qualtrics, it, I didn't

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have that full purview is it was very

siloed in different organizations.

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It's really just refreshing to see it all.

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come together and you

can just move faster.

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Planning's easier when you're all

coordinated and it's just, it's fantastic.

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People know each other.

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And so even my new things, like someone

will say, Hey, can I, you know, turn off

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this sales, this field in Salesforce?

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if you as a sales ops team, just

kind of like, Hey, yeah, everyone in

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sales ops, we're good, but you know,

let's turn it off, a lot of times

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damage happens now when you see, Oh,

CS ops is like, no, no, no, no, no.

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We use that field for this reason

or that reason, or, everybody says,

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no, we all don't need that field.

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We can turn it off and we

can clean up stuff quick.

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Like that's one little example of

how you can move fast, but it's

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really nice just to be coordinated,

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Justin Norris: And did you inherit

this unified structure or was

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that unification project something

that you led when you join?

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Cody Guymon: No, it was part of when

I joined it, but even ultimately

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more upstream a little bit, it was

part of the recruitment process.

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when I was interviewing for this role

and leaving, Qualtrics, I really worked

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with BJ, our CEO to kind of design

what the org chart would look like.

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what makes sense to have in this

organization and can we work seamlessly

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and why and why not for each function.

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So when I joined, I think, I think for the

first quarter, it was like just sales ops.

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And I was learning just workado.

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I was learning how we're set up and.

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I joined in Q4, which every ops leader

knows is always fun because you're

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doing the annual plan and getting ready

for territories and quotas and pipe

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gen goals and all that type of stuff.

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So it was just drinking from a water

hose, but then after the first quarter,

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I'd started Q2, all the groups came

together and it's just been awesome.

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Justin Norris: Were there specific pain

points or challenges with the way that

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work had functioned before that, the VJ

was trying to solve by like recruiting

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you and having that plan in place or

was it just sort of, we think this

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is the next step and it'll be good.

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I

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Cody Guymon: of both.

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I think we're kind of gotten to the

size and scale crossing, you know, a

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hundred million in revenue and growing

and, at that size and scale, you gotta

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get coordinated and you gotta set up

processing systems that work together.

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So I think there's a bit of like

right size and scale to start

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laying the groundwork there.

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Uh, you know, when I joined, I

think there were some issues.

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I think we were.

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I, I remember trying to set up a pipeline

goals for the following year, and for

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me, pipeline goals in dollars, like how

many dollars do we need by source and

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by quarter and by sales team, so really

matrix down to the, granular level.

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And, you know, when we started

doing that right off the bat, it was

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like, okay, well, this org measures

in dollars, but this one's doing

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count of ops and this one's doing.

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Ops that are qualified in this stage,

but they don't really care about earlier

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stages and it's like, well, how do we

get coordinated as a whole to know if

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we're ahead or behind paces of business?

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So we can't just like reach out

and ping everybody individually

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and see if we're doing okay.

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So it was just stuff like that, but

I knew that was going to be there.

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When you have silos everywhere,

it's hard to be coordinated.

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You're going to do what's

best for your business unit.

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And that that's great.

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And that works to a

certain scale of company.

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Then you get to a spot where, if you're

a later stage, pre IPO company, need

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to know future quarter predictability.

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And is the pipeline we're generating

today enough for tomorrow?

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And could we confidently.

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Set a beat and raise if we needed to,

if we were going public and you start

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working backwards from there, you need

to standardize on a lot of things.

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So I knew that coming in though.

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I mean, that's, that's kind of stuff

that gets me excited is going and

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building and doing all that stuff.

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I think once it's all set

and in motion and turnkey.

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you know, it's not as, not as fun,

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Justin Norris: to dig a little into the

example that you provided, because I think

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it's really interesting and probably many

operators have that experience of like,

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everyone's got their own spreadsheet,

their own metrics, not in alignment.

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So the vision of the promised land,

so to speak, of where you want to get

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to might seem clear, but getting to

Everyone on board, especially when,

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there's a lot of different people

already doing things their own way.

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That could be challenging.

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What's the like change management

process that you follow to kind of

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bring everybody into that aligned state.

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Cody Guymon: not, not easy.

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So I think one area that's like

the key starting point is that when

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I joined, a fellow colleague who

worked for me at Qualtrics joined

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at the same time, Tyler Lawson to

run go to market data and analytics.

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So we had a central team that

was going to own standardized

308

: 00:15:26

reporting, pipeline pacing.

309

: 00:15:30

Average sales price definition, win rates.

310

: 00:15:33

Like you have one spot to go, right?

311

: 00:15:36

So that's key.

312

: 00:15:37

I think first is just to get like an owner

that sits in the org and that's great.

313

: 00:15:42

Now that person can really

collaborate with all the groups

314

: 00:15:45

and, bring that data together.

315

: 00:15:46

So that was kind of step one,

but to your point, it's still a

316

: 00:15:49

lot of change management to go.

317

: 00:15:52

Either take that reporting

on or in some cases tweak it.

318

: 00:15:55

We're going to go from count of ops to

dollars and that's going to be different.

319

: 00:15:59

And, we're gonna have targets

now that are different.

320

: 00:16:02

They're in dollars and not

count and things of that nature.

321

: 00:16:04

So there's just a lot that happens.

322

: 00:16:06

But I think one of the key components

for Ramos leader is to be collaborative.

323

: 00:16:10

If you work well with others and you

could talk to the why you start with

324

: 00:16:14

the why it's important to do that.

325

: 00:16:16

Not just I'm doing this because

it's the way I did it before.

326

: 00:16:18

And we're going to do it here.

327

: 00:16:19

And I know everything that's not

gonna work, but if it's like, Hey,

328

: 00:16:23

this is the reason why I think we

all want to standardize on dollars or

329

: 00:16:27

I'm using that as the example, but.

330

: 00:16:28

this is why it matters and why it

will really matter when we're public

331

: 00:16:31

or in the future at some point.

332

: 00:16:33

then I think it's all fine.

333

: 00:16:34

It's not super smooth, but like,

generally being friendly, collaborative,

334

: 00:16:41

looking out for their best interest.

335

: 00:16:42

Why would they not like it?

336

: 00:16:43

And how can you mitigate

that feeling generally goes a

337

: 00:16:47

long way.

338

: 00:16:48

Justin Norris: Don't be a jerk.

339

: 00:16:50

In essence,

340

: 00:16:51

Cody Guymon: Don't be a jerk.

341

: 00:16:52

Yeah, that's great.

342

: 00:16:53

I think that sums it up pretty

343

: 00:16:54

well.

344

: 00:16:55

Justin Norris: am intrigued

by how you described the go

345

: 00:16:58

to market, analytics function.

346

: 00:16:59

Hopefully I got that right.

347

: 00:17:00

I'd love to just like better understand.

348

: 00:17:03

What they do, are they like the

data team or do they work with

349

: 00:17:07

another sort of business data team?

350

: 00:17:09

I'd love to just go deeper into that.

351

: 00:17:11

Cody Guymon: The data team

352

: 00:17:12

for everything revenue.

353

: 00:17:13

Justin Norris: Let me know.

354

: 00:17:14

Okay.

355

: 00:17:14

Cody Guymon: So, you know, you're going

to have finance professionals in FP& A

356

: 00:17:19

that are going to own all the financial

data, but, as far as revenue metrics

357

: 00:17:23

are considered, this team owns it

and they, build out data dictionaries

358

: 00:17:29

and get buy in on definitions, right?

359

: 00:17:31

There's oftentimes 15 different

definitions for what a

360

: 00:17:35

customer is, Depending on which

department you're talking to.

361

: 00:17:38

And so if there's a place to document

that, like if finance is asking for

362

: 00:17:42

a data poll or whatnot, or they're

pulling data and that, that cut count

363

: 00:17:46

of customers looks different than maybe

the go to market analytics team polls.

364

: 00:17:51

why is that?

365

: 00:17:52

Right.

366

: 00:17:52

and if you have definitions

clearly laid out.

367

: 00:17:55

A data dictionary catalog, you know,

central source of truth for that

368

: 00:17:59

just becomes pretty easy, right?

369

: 00:18:00

I mean, the average sales price

could be really interesting, right?

370

: 00:18:04

If you have a, quarter with a 9 figure

deal, that's the only 1 you've ever had.

371

: 00:18:12

And you're looking at a chart.

372

: 00:18:13

Do you exclude that 1 for the

sake of analytics purposes?

373

: 00:18:16

Just.

374

: 00:18:17

Exclude it.

375

: 00:18:17

So we could see without

that one, were we okay?

376

: 00:18:19

Or were you just going to celebrate

that we were just awesome because of

377

: 00:18:22

one deal pulled up the average, right?

378

: 00:18:23

So there's just different ways you can

slice data as a go to market professional.

379

: 00:18:28

And so you've got to have a

central kind of source of truth for

380

: 00:18:31

those, and that's what that team

381

: 00:18:33

does.

382

: 00:18:34

Justin Norris: This data dictionary

that you describe, this seems

383

: 00:18:37

like a very tactical question, but

I'm interested in these things.

384

: 00:18:40

Like, where does it live?

385

: 00:18:40

Is it a shared Google sheet

that people can access?

386

: 00:18:43

Do you have some kind of knowledge base, a

387

: 00:18:44

wiki?

388

: 00:18:45

Cody Guymon: the high spot,

389

: 00:18:46

it's a high spot page.

390

: 00:18:47

Yeah, that's what we use for our

kind of centralized repository for

391

: 00:18:51

everything kind of go to market related.

392

: 00:18:53

And we can kind of drop that

And send it to everybody.

393

: 00:18:56

Justin Norris: And does that team have,

if we just think about the tech stack

394

: 00:18:59

that they're using, do they have sort

of their own data warehouse, whether

395

: 00:19:02

that's like Snowflake or big query

or whatever they're using, or do they

396

: 00:19:06

still share space with the rest of the

org in terms of data and warehousing?

397

: 00:19:11

Cody Guymon: they'll have their own pulled

out for go to market and stuff like, and

398

: 00:19:15

utilize that.

399

: 00:19:16

Justin Norris: Thinking about,

you sketched out this org design

400

: 00:19:19

during recruitment, you've come

in, you've, you've built it out.

401

: 00:19:22

It sounds like 40 people.

402

: 00:19:23

I didn't, I wasn't keeping count,

but it felt like about there by the

403

: 00:19:26

Cody Guymon: Yeah.

404

: 00:19:27

35, 35 ish, Yeah.

405

: 00:19:29

Yeah.

406

: 00:19:29

It's a good, good man.

407

: 00:19:30

Interns probably 40.

408

: 00:19:32

Yeah,

409

: 00:19:32

Justin Norris: big team.

410

: 00:19:33

any like pain points or challenges

because I know there's the benefits and

411

: 00:19:37

I'm a believer in this function that's

why we're talking about this, but Being

412

: 00:19:40

realistic if someone else was to take

this journey, what are some of the

413

: 00:19:43

challenges that they should watch out for?

414

: 00:19:46

Cody Guymon: man.

415

: 00:19:46

That's a good question.

416

: 00:19:47

a lot of direct reports, so

that's, that's, tough with like,

417

: 00:19:53

you know, wanting to have enough

time with everybody, individually.

418

: 00:19:56

I think for me, the key there is when

hiring, make sure that you look for

419

: 00:20:03

people that can thrive in ambiguity,

if they need a lot of handholding, It's

420

: 00:20:09

going to be really difficult for me

to give them the time needed for sure.

421

: 00:20:13

so that, time spread, I think is key.

422

: 00:20:15

Now there's some things we could do.

423

: 00:20:16

We can find another person and consolidate

some stuff, but I don't want to do that.

424

: 00:20:19

I think we're trying to be lean

as a business, be more efficient.

425

: 00:20:22

I can do it.

426

: 00:20:23

I can be spread, but you

know, span of control.

427

: 00:20:25

It's a big team.

428

: 00:20:26

There's a lot of, folks there.

429

: 00:20:27

So that's just, I think, time management.

430

: 00:20:29

is important.

431

: 00:20:31

don't know that I would say

there's a lot of like challenges.

432

: 00:20:33

There's a lot more pros than any

cons bringing them all together.

433

: 00:20:37

I mean, we move faster, we move more

efficiently, we're more coordinated.

434

: 00:20:42

We, I mean, we did our annual term

within, a week, everything was done.

435

: 00:20:44

I mean, quotas were loaded for

the new year in the systems the

436

: 00:20:48

day the annual term flipped over.

437

: 00:20:51

So everybody had quotas, comp

plans were done and sent out for

438

: 00:20:56

signature within 10 days, territories

were done within three days.

439

: 00:21:00

I mean, like you can get stuff done.

440

: 00:21:02

Pipeline targets were done before

we even started the quarter.

441

: 00:21:04

It's it's a lot easier to be coordinated

when you have all the groups, when you're

442

: 00:21:07

kind of waiting on another group and

their, boss to like prioritize it for you.

443

: 00:21:12

And then that's a key component of

everything you're trying to build.

444

: 00:21:16

Like, if it's siloed, that just, now

your annual turn can take six weeks.

445

: 00:21:21

It can take two months.

446

: 00:21:21

I've heard of some areas of taking

three months, like, and the first

447

: 00:21:24

quarter before everything's dialed.

448

: 00:21:26

That's just so slow to get

started off on a new year.

449

: 00:21:28

So, I don't know many

450

: 00:21:30

cons

451

: 00:21:31

Justin Norris: Mean that's amazing

Exploring the example you gave a

452

: 00:21:35

little bit further let's say the

structures were separate, like

453

: 00:21:38

compensation, territory, stuff like that.

454

: 00:21:41

Is it the primarily like the marketing

sales alignment that makes that hard

455

: 00:21:45

when the groups are separate and

that, marketing's got to sign onto

456

: 00:21:48

its pipeline quota or.

457

: 00:21:50

Cody Guymon: Yeah, I

think it's all of them.

458

: 00:21:52

It's hard when they're all like, you

know, if it's just sales ops and marketing

459

: 00:21:56

opposites and marketing and partner

opposites and partners, it's just so hard

460

: 00:22:00

to get yet targets that you're pulling

up, like really difficult to get targets.

461

: 00:22:05

If you don't know what each

group is doing, And to check it,

462

: 00:22:08

like, are we good enough at the

macro to be able to hit a number?

463

: 00:22:11

And, you know, targets is part of it.

464

: 00:22:14

Territories is part of it.

465

: 00:22:15

SKO is part of it.

466

: 00:22:17

if you're fragmented all over the

place, it's really difficult to put on

467

: 00:22:19

a coherent SKO or, a revenue kickoff.

468

: 00:22:22

But, it's really difficult.

469

: 00:22:23

You're just waiting on hopefully

other people to prioritize what

470

: 00:22:26

you're prioritizing, but if you think

about in marketing, there's so many

471

: 00:22:29

different things going on at the annual

turn within just marketing, right?

472

: 00:22:33

Like, pipeline targets as part of it,

but the gardener magic quadrant comes

473

: 00:22:38

out in Q1 and is our website ready

what's our messaging to the market

474

: 00:22:43

going to be like, there's so much

stuff that has nothing to do with ops

475

: 00:22:46

that becomes Always mission critical.

476

: 00:22:49

So having the marketing ops pulled

out to be able to support that, but

477

: 00:22:53

also really prioritize and know since

August that these things were due, you

478

: 00:22:59

just work on it a lot earlier, right?

479

: 00:23:01

Like we have an offsite for my whole

organization in September every year.

480

: 00:23:05

And in September, we start end

goal in mind, February 1st,

481

: 00:23:09

which is our fiscal February 1st.

482

: 00:23:12

These are all the deliverables

we need to have done.

483

: 00:23:14

How do we back into that now?

484

: 00:23:16

Are we on pace?

485

: 00:23:17

Are we behind where we're behind?

486

: 00:23:19

Are we waiting on any key

decisions and we have that build

487

: 00:23:22

up all the way to February 1st.

488

: 00:23:23

So we know, it's getting

prioritized in Q3, for every group,

489

: 00:23:29

Justin Norris: The planning you

just described is, the operational

490

: 00:23:31

backbone planning of the company.

491

: 00:23:34

And then there's the, net new projects,

new features or deliverables or

492

: 00:23:38

requests and what you prioritize.

493

: 00:23:40

And in some ways, even though it's

siloed, having the functions, the ops

494

: 00:23:44

teams embedded within their functions.

495

: 00:23:45

That is.

496

: 00:23:46

makes it kind of simple because the

marketing ops person or leader goes to

497

: 00:23:50

the CMO and is like, what do you want?

498

: 00:23:51

And the sales ops person

goes to the sales ops leader.

499

: 00:23:53

What do you want?

500

: 00:23:54

Now you've got everyone together.

501

: 00:23:56

What does planning look like?

502

: 00:23:57

Like, how do you manage that?

503

: 00:23:59

And how do you figure out like, where are

we going to allocate and budget our time?

504

: 00:24:03

Cody Guymon: good question.

505

: 00:24:04

I think what I do is I do the

urgent and important matrix.

506

: 00:24:08

It's always mine.

507

: 00:24:09

Like, is this going to move

the needle for importance?

508

: 00:24:11

Like, is it going to bring

value to the business and then

509

: 00:24:14

is it urgent or is it not?

510

: 00:24:15

And I like to do that actually siloed.

511

: 00:24:20

So I like to go with Michael and marketing

ops and be like, what's the most important

512

: 00:24:24

things you're working on right now?

513

: 00:24:25

Because what I don't want to do is

collectively, if we do that as a big

514

: 00:24:29

go to market, Operations organization,

I might be pulling if, if I did

515

: 00:24:35

that, I would be pulling resources

that should be dedicated to their

516

: 00:24:38

department into like a collective, you

know, group and, and I think then you

517

: 00:24:44

start service abilities really bad.

518

: 00:24:46

I think, you know, like, You start to

get away from what the rev ops leader

519

: 00:24:51

should be doing, which is supporting

each group individually, but like

520

: 00:24:54

collectively working together faster.

521

: 00:24:55

And so wouldn't do that.

522

: 00:24:58

like to do those actually siloed on the

like strategic projects you're talking

523

: 00:25:02

about, like for the CMO, I want to

make sure he knows like the marketing

524

: 00:25:05

ops team as they're back and they're

going to do things for annual planning

525

: 00:25:09

and for the broader org that matters,

but they're going to have dedicated at

526

: 00:25:13

least 50 percent of their time to go do.

527

: 00:25:15

Whatever strategic

project you're working on.

528

: 00:25:18

And so, I don't like to like get it

all together because you might have,

529

: 00:25:21

okay, this quarter, 90 percent of

my whole organization, we're going

530

: 00:25:25

to all put heads down and focus

on sales ops stuff that matter.

531

: 00:25:29

you're just a big sales ops team.

532

: 00:25:30

Justin Norris: And that's what like the

head of CS and the head of marketing

533

: 00:25:33

worry about with a central function is

that all like that the center of gravity

534

: 00:25:36

will get, sucked away from them and they

won't get, but at the same time, it is

535

: 00:25:41

interesting to me, sometimes I've seen

in businesses that I've been working in

536

: 00:25:46

like marketing's, doing pretty well and

CS is doing pretty well, like we don't

537

: 00:25:50

have a term problem, we don't have a

pipe generation problem, but the sales

538

: 00:25:53

team can't close and that's actually the

most critical, um, Area of the business.

539

: 00:25:58

Do you see it as your job

to triage that at all?

540

: 00:26:00

Like have that purview across the business

and direct those resources accordingly.

541

: 00:26:04

Cody Guymon: Yeah, do think

that's important to triage and

542

: 00:26:07

like have a focus for sure.

543

: 00:26:09

I don't necessarily love muddling

resources allocation at like

544

: 00:26:13

the analyst level, do that.

545

: 00:26:15

However, if there are times where it's

like, in this hyper growth late stage.

546

: 00:26:19

So.

547

: 00:26:20

It's not like I have a lot of folks that

are, sitting around with nothing to do.

548

: 00:26:24

If I did, that'd be sweet.

549

: 00:26:26

we could flex a little bit, right?

550

: 00:26:27

Like, I think one example where, you could

have some flex, especially at Workato is.

551

: 00:26:33

you know, a lot of people can

build recipes that work on it.

552

: 00:26:36

That's part of our, it's part of our

culture to be able to use the tool.

553

: 00:26:40

So if we had like a massive backlog

of really high impact, urgent

554

: 00:26:46

recipes, we wanted to go build the.

555

: 00:26:48

You know, drive the business forward.

556

: 00:26:50

And, they were mainly with,

let's say CS ops right now.

557

: 00:26:54

And, we just didn't have enough

builders in our CS ops team to

558

: 00:26:57

go through that backlog quickly.

559

: 00:26:59

Theoretically, if I had a lot of

bandwidth across my, my business, I

560

: 00:27:03

could say, Hey, team for the next three

days, let's get, a couple analysts

561

: 00:27:06

from marketing ops, a couple analysts

from partner ops, cause you all are

562

: 00:27:09

humming right now and have some time.

563

: 00:27:11

Let's get you to come build recipes

with CS and go, triage that you

564

: 00:27:16

could definitely do that for sure.

565

: 00:27:18

And I think there were times 4

plus years ago where you had some

566

: 00:27:25

excess capacity to be able to mix.

567

: 00:27:29

I think right now.

568

: 00:27:31

In the efficiency gain, get

profitable environment that we're in.

569

: 00:27:36

It's not a luxury.

570

: 00:27:37

I have at work auto.

571

: 00:27:38

It's not a luxury.

572

: 00:27:38

Most ops leaders have is to have

this like flex workload type of shift

573

: 00:27:43

because we're just trying to be lean.

574

: 00:27:45

So ideally, yes, you could do that.

575

: 00:27:48

I haven't seen that in the

last few years of my career.

576

: 00:27:52

maybe there are others that

have that, surplus workload,

577

: 00:27:55

Justin Norris: And from that point of view

of like, profitability, economizing, are

578

: 00:28:01

there ever times where you find yourself

like, hypothetical CMO wants to do X, Y,

579

: 00:28:05

Z, or head of CS wants to do, et cetera.

580

: 00:28:08

But actually this is where I feel

the business, needs most like,

581

: 00:28:12

, there's, giving them what they want

versus giving them what they need.

582

: 00:28:15

Do you ever find you have

to, negotiate that at all?

583

: 00:28:18

Cody Guymon: I think generally the

negotiation is more so, for instance,

584

: 00:28:22

like, my CS ops leader, it's like

he has a running prioritization,

585

: 00:28:28

to do list really, right?

586

: 00:28:29

Like big projects and things, and

it's kind of sorted high to low.

587

: 00:28:34

And I think more of the pushback is when

a new thing comes on to say, okay, CS

588

: 00:28:40

leader, we have 15 things here that we

have on the priority list one through 15.

589

: 00:28:46

If you want this by Friday, does

that mean you want number one and

590

: 00:28:50

number two to be delayed now, or are

we now slotting this in as number

591

: 00:28:54

one, or does that one come in?

592

: 00:28:56

And generally that's like a dance, right?

593

: 00:28:58

It'll be like.

594

: 00:28:58

I still need number one and number

two, but let's bring this into

595

: 00:29:02

number three and it's something quick

we can get done and that's okay.

596

: 00:29:05

If the other two get bumped

away, you know what I mean?

597

: 00:29:07

Like that's generally, I think the

negotiation, I think from my perspective,

598

: 00:29:13

I try not to Push back too hard on what

those domain leaders feel is important.

599

: 00:29:20

And that's, I guess I felt

like super strong about it, but

600

: 00:29:24

to me, like I'm not the CMO.

601

: 00:29:26

Like I've been versed in marketing

throughout my whole career.

602

: 00:29:29

And I feel a little bit of like, who am

I to, Say what's important and whatnot.

603

: 00:29:32

I can come back with

like, here's the list.

604

: 00:29:36

Here's how long we need

to get these things done.

605

: 00:29:40

And like, where do you feel like this

slots, I think is a better combo.

606

: 00:29:43

I mean, I could ultimately, like,

if I felt completely like no

607

: 00:29:48

way, that's not that important.

608

: 00:29:49

maybe say something, but generally

like, I'm pretty, reluctant to

609

: 00:29:53

really push back too far there.

610

: 00:29:54

unless I think it's like egregious,

which is very rarely, if any.

611

: 00:29:57

Justin Norris: Thinking about impact.

612

: 00:29:59

you mentioned that, project that

Michael worked on, which is, super cool.

613

: 00:30:02

What are the, some of the other things

that you're just, you know, really

614

: 00:30:05

proud of that you feel your team's been

able to deliver over the last while?

615

: 00:30:08

Cody Guymon: I think some of those

automations pieces that you either

616

: 00:30:11

drive pipeline or efficiency are great.

617

: 00:30:13

those will always be what

I say with Ricardo because

618

: 00:30:16

it's our tool and I love it.

619

: 00:30:17

But I think another one, that's

important Is, I'll just pull up a

620

: 00:30:22

report that I think it's used every

day by hundreds of people and it's, uh,

621

: 00:30:26

it's a pipeline pacing report, right?

622

: 00:30:28

for Q2 that we're in right now,

are we ahead or behind pace for

623

: 00:30:33

pipeline generation by source,

23 days into the quarter and then

624

: 00:30:38

tomorrow we refresh that thing.

625

: 00:30:39

And it's 24 days into a quarter.

626

: 00:30:41

We're ahead or behind pace and It's

by segment and then as you expand the

627

: 00:30:45

segment, it has every team underneath.

628

: 00:30:47

So I know.

629

: 00:30:47

Okay.

630

: 00:30:47

Overall, we're good with partners, but by

double click, we're like doing great in

631

: 00:30:52

a mea, but like, North America is behind.

632

: 00:30:54

Right?

633

: 00:30:54

what are we doing?

634

: 00:30:55

And so knowing that,

leading indicator piece.

635

: 00:30:59

Is a really important part

because it's beyond just a report.

636

: 00:31:03

It's, transforming an organization

to think not just about today.

637

: 00:31:08

It's like thinking about long

term success, future quarters.

638

: 00:31:12

and so I think like, if you were

to ask like what thing, when I

639

: 00:31:16

came here in the last 18 months is

like, hopefully trying to reorient

640

: 00:31:20

and think beyond current quarter,

for sustainable long term success.

641

: 00:31:26

rather than coming into a quarter

and be like, whew, thanks.

642

: 00:31:29

We got enough pipeline.

643

: 00:31:30

Great.

644

: 00:31:30

All right.

645

: 00:31:31

We, we feel okay.

646

: 00:31:33

And then it's like, Ooh, pipeline

got cleaned those first two weeks.

647

: 00:31:37

Now we're behind.

648

: 00:31:37

Oh no, now I don't feel good.

649

: 00:31:39

Right.

650

: 00:31:39

It's like, should be cleaned real time.

651

: 00:31:42

So it's not like a cleanup

every start of the quarter.

652

: 00:31:46

We should know actually, before we even

get to that quarter, we feel pretty

653

: 00:31:49

good because we know we've been on track

for the last three quarters or not.

654

: 00:31:53

but that goes with, long term

planning, annual planning goes into

655

: 00:31:56

forecasting and having an idea about.

656

: 00:31:59

running a forecast call.

657

: 00:32:01

Part of my job is I run the sales forecast

call for all of our business units.

658

: 00:32:05

And when I go into that call, every week,

eight or nine of the quarter, we have

659

: 00:32:10

a current quarter forecast call, but we

also have a future quarter forecast call

660

: 00:32:15

and every rep and leader in the company

will go and look at their next quarter,

661

: 00:32:18

scrub the pipe and give an initial

call for that against their number.

662

: 00:32:22

And so it's not just pipeline, but

we're talking forecast now, and then,

663

: 00:32:25

you get beyond that and you're looking

at an events calendar and marketing.

664

: 00:32:29

And there's a lot of ways that you can

be thinking more into the future, and I

665

: 00:32:33

think that's key.

666

: 00:32:34

Justin Norris: Let's drill on forecasting

because a, it's just super interesting.

667

: 00:32:37

It's super important.

668

: 00:32:38

And it's an area where I think, a

lot of businesses now that we're

669

: 00:32:42

not in the hyper growth, free money,

everyone's just buying everything mode.

670

: 00:32:47

a lot of businesses perhaps have seen

the fragility, the weaknesses in their

671

: 00:32:51

own forecasting methodology to use

a particular, like you, described it

672

: 00:32:55

at a high level, some of the things

that you do, is there a particular

673

: 00:32:58

methodology you follow, or is it

really just about, Clean data, regular

674

: 00:33:01

inspection, that sort of thing.

675

: 00:33:03

Cody Guymon: I think it's a lot

of things, it is clean data.

676

: 00:33:05

That's important.

677

: 00:33:07

it is regular forecast calls

weekly with inspection.

678

: 00:33:10

it's knowing people well, reading people.

679

: 00:33:14

you probably see right here, I've

got a poker table in my office.

680

: 00:33:18

Like part of my favorite thing is to read

people like, are they bluffing me or not?

681

: 00:33:22

Right.

682

: 00:33:22

That's important to know, So there's

the art and the science to all of it.

683

: 00:33:26

And I think, can use all the data

and analytics in the world for sure.

684

: 00:33:33

But if you have a massive needle mover

deal, have you done enough inspection on

685

: 00:33:38

that, the analytics will give you a yay

or nay based on like Salesforce hygiene.

686

: 00:33:43

But, do we feel like we're

going to go get that deal?

687

: 00:33:46

Yes or no?

688

: 00:33:47

Is the sales leader going

to do whatever it takes?

689

: 00:33:49

Is the sales rep going to go

on site and camp out there for

690

: 00:33:51

a week to get the deal done?

691

: 00:33:54

there's a lot of intangible kind of things

that I think are important to a forecast.

692

: 00:33:57

So it's just about getting in the details.

693

: 00:33:59

It's about knowing the needle mover deals.

694

: 00:34:01

It's about.

695

: 00:34:02

Knowing people and if they, if

they sandbag or they don't, it's

696

: 00:34:05

about, knowing if they have a

claim, do they have multiple paths

697

: 00:34:09

to that number or do they not?

698

: 00:34:11

Is it a single path to that number?

699

: 00:34:13

And so very risky, or is there multiple

paths and what are those paths look like?

700

: 00:34:16

and so you can rely on it a bit heavier.

701

: 00:34:20

it's asking those questions.

702

: 00:34:21

Okay.

703

: 00:34:22

If that deal falls out, how

do you get to that call still?

704

: 00:34:25

And I also think, some people

are too rigid on their forecast.

705

: 00:34:28

manual submissions, there'll be like

a commit and a high, like two things.

706

: 00:34:34

You're like, well, it's just

going to get you a massive range.

707

: 00:34:37

Doesn't really help you.

708

: 00:34:38

Right.

709

: 00:34:38

So I like to do.

710

: 00:34:40

A lot of people call it, uh, closest to

Penn, nearest to Penn, but I, what I want

711

: 00:34:45

to do is I want to hear that, but I I

want somebody's response to that question.

712

: 00:34:50

I don't want them to have fear if

they actually think it went down

713

: 00:34:54

week over week, with a low and a

high, you want them to converge.

714

: 00:34:59

Low, you never want to have drop

on that range when you're getting

715

: 00:35:02

the sides of your range, right?

716

: 00:35:05

The high generally, I guess it would

be okay if it goes up, but generally

717

: 00:35:08

you want it to hold, or it probably

is going to converge and come down

718

: 00:35:11

a little bit as the quarter goes.

719

: 00:35:13

But that like middle one, whatever

you want to call it, your call, your

720

: 00:35:16

forecast, your commit, your closest

to the pin, whatever we use there.

721

: 00:35:21

I think it's really important for people

to be like, Plus or minus 3 percent on

722

: 00:35:26

that number, like a lot of people just

want to see that thing go up and so

723

: 00:35:30

they'll say just plus 3%, but like, I

don't want that to be a sandbag low number

724

: 00:35:35

that just comes up every quarter because

I actually then don't know what we're at.

725

: 00:35:38

But if there's lack of like fear of

retaliation on that one coming a little

726

: 00:35:42

bit now, if that thing catapults to

the low, that, I mean, that's a whole

727

: 00:35:46

nother story, but if you're plus or

minus 5 percent on that thing, and you're

728

: 00:35:49

generally hitting right or right at it,

maybe four weeks into a quarter, I think

729

: 00:35:53

that's important too, is to create an

environment where you can get honesty.

730

: 00:35:57

I've been at some organizations where

it's like, you better come out the

731

: 00:36:01

gates forecasting at least 80 percent

of the number or you could get fired.

732

: 00:36:05

Well, what if really the forecast is 60?

733

: 00:36:08

you want them just to lie,

to make you feel better about

734

: 00:36:11

it so they don't get fired?

735

: 00:36:12

Like, it's just a weird environment.

736

: 00:36:14

But if you're like, no, no, no, I

want to know the real all the time.

737

: 00:36:17

And that also means on the high, I want to

know the real, I don't want you to parking

738

: 00:36:22

lot deals in the next quarter that you can

bring in in the last second and be a hero.

739

: 00:36:27

That's not going to be a hero to me.

740

: 00:36:29

And I'd rather have it be an upside

deal within the current quarter.

741

: 00:36:33

Like, so we know about it.

742

: 00:36:34

Let's just be honest and

communicate about it.

743

: 00:36:37

So we're, good.

744

: 00:36:37

And I also know if you've exceeded your

number on the last day of the quarter and

745

: 00:36:42

you want to push them stuff, you can also

tell me, if you need it, we can bring

746

: 00:36:45

it in at the global level, but I might

not push for that signature today because

747

: 00:36:49

I have a light next quarter pipeline.

748

: 00:36:51

It feels good to start off a

little bit better, but I'll do it.

749

: 00:36:54

Like I want to hear that concern

come out I don't want to be

750

: 00:36:56

searching for it, you know?

751

: 00:36:58

Justin Norris: It's so logical and common

sense what you're saying and it's cultural

752

: 00:37:02

and it's back to not being a jerk.

753

: 00:37:04

all that good stuff.

754

: 00:37:06

And yet it's, not that common.

755

: 00:37:07

Like the negative stereotype of sales

culture is the other thing you said,

756

: 00:37:11

encouraging this deceptive dishonest

behavior and that's really toxic and

757

: 00:37:16

it's actually harmful to business

performance, not just harmful to people.

758

: 00:37:19

why does that dysfunction exist?

759

: 00:37:21

Do you think, why are more people

not kind of commonsensical the

760

: 00:37:24

way that you just described?

761

: 00:37:25

Cody Guymon: I think a lack of, probably

fear, it's a fear based culture, you know,

762

: 00:37:33

and you don't have somebody that's willing

to say like, no, I want transparency.

763

: 00:37:38

I want honesty.

764

: 00:37:39

I want, that then it's really hard, you're

in an environment where that's like,

765

: 00:37:42

tops down and you have to come out the

gates a certain number, you could get

766

: 00:37:46

fired and like, That's just the culture.

767

: 00:37:48

you need somebody brave

to push back against that.

768

: 00:37:52

and that's rare because I think, people

want to be comfortable and maybe don't

769

: 00:37:57

want to stand up to that type of stuff.

770

: 00:38:00

But, it is rare ish.

771

: 00:38:03

hopefully it's like becoming less and

less rare, but it can set you apart.

772

: 00:38:08

I think for those that are opportunistic

listening to this, Like if you want to

773

: 00:38:12

set yourself apart as a RevOps leader,

be willing to get uncomfortable.

774

: 00:38:18

Be willing to ask like uncomfortable

questions and just sit in

775

: 00:38:21

the silence for a little bit.

776

: 00:38:22

Like, Hey, are you really

just committing that deal?

777

: 00:38:24

Cause you like are worried if your

commits lower, like you're going to

778

: 00:38:28

hit a list on a PIP list somewhere.

779

: 00:38:32

Cause like, I feel like there's no

way you're getting to that number.

780

: 00:38:35

Convince me that I'm wrong, please.

781

: 00:38:36

Because like, I want to know

why you're saying that number.

782

: 00:38:39

Maybe I'm missing something,

but that feels forced.

783

: 00:38:43

It feels.

784

: 00:38:44

Like, it's not going to happen.

785

: 00:38:48

I would love for it to like, tell me why.

786

: 00:38:50

And maybe you're opportunistic.

787

: 00:38:52

There's some stuff that

I don't know about.

788

: 00:38:53

Great.

789

: 00:38:53

But like, I think those are the

type of combos that's really where

790

: 00:38:57

you can set yourself apart versus

just like reporting the news.

791

: 00:39:01

Right.

792

: 00:39:02

Oh, the forecast was 90%.

793

: 00:39:04

It's going to be 90 percent and I think

it takes a leader to be like, no, what

794

: 00:39:07

do you actually think it's going to be?

795

: 00:39:10

well, I think it's going to be like 70%.

796

: 00:39:12

Why?

797

: 00:39:12

Because the data says this and I

think this person's kind of scared

798

: 00:39:16

because they had a bad quarter last

quarter and they don't want to come

799

: 00:39:18

out the gates with another bad call.

800

: 00:39:20

So they're probably inflating it.

801

: 00:39:21

you know, you just got

to dig a little bit.

802

: 00:39:23

but you can set yourself apart,

803

: 00:39:24

Justin Norris: I love it.

804

: 00:39:25

one of the things maybe that's

in your, corner, at least now at

805

: 00:39:29

Workato having that conversation.

806

: 00:39:30

You know, you had a great run at Qualtrics

and you hit some highs that not, everyone

807

: 00:39:36

gets to hit probably relatively small.

808

: 00:39:38

Number of people get to have those

sorts of exits So maybe first question

809

: 00:39:42

is do you feel that that's like

an asset that previous experience

810

: 00:39:45

now that you go into new roles?

811

: 00:39:46

And number two, maybe just walk us

through Some of that journey and some

812

: 00:39:51

of the battle scars and things that

you learn through that kind of growth

813

: 00:39:54

Cody Guymon: for sure.

814

: 00:39:55

No, I feel very fortunate, very blessed

to have joined Qualtrics when I did.

815

: 00:40:00

I mean, I joined a rocket

ship that was taken off.

816

: 00:40:03

And so a lot of that was

just, yeah, I'm grateful.

817

: 00:40:07

Grateful that I joined when I

did, because I think I learned

818

: 00:40:12

30 years of experience in six.

819

: 00:40:13

I we went from 100

million in revenue to 1.

820

: 00:40:17

5 billion when I left.

821

: 00:40:18

I mean, it's like, It's insane.

822

: 00:40:20

Not many companies grow that fast

and go through such transformational

823

: 00:40:24

organizational changes in such

a short time that it's wild.

824

: 00:40:30

We put some op stability in

place and prep to go public.

825

: 00:40:34

And, you know, Sequoia gave a checklist.

826

: 00:40:36

Here's the things you

got to do to go public.

827

: 00:40:37

We create the roadshow deck.

828

: 00:40:39

We got to do the things.

829

: 00:40:42

And then we got acquired by SAP a

couple of days before going public

830

: 00:40:44

for 8 billion, which was super

exciting, fun, sad for some people.

831

: 00:40:49

Some people wanted to go public.

832

: 00:40:50

So, finance team was like, Oh,

I wanted that on the resume

833

: 00:40:53

and now it's gone, whatever.

834

: 00:40:54

But, it was a crazy experience to

go then for the next two years.

835

: 00:40:59

Learn what a big company does at scale.

836

: 00:41:02

How do they operate at scale?

837

: 00:41:04

How do they operate with

15 lines of businesses?

838

: 00:41:07

How do they forecast with

15 lines of businesses?

839

: 00:41:10

How do they communicate about

opportunities where you might have

840

: 00:41:14

four businesses all working with the

same economic buyer at the same time?

841

: 00:41:18

Like that's.

842

: 00:41:20

learning experience being a part of

a company that was when I joined 600

843

: 00:41:24

people at the acquisition, maybe it

was: 2000

844

: 00:41:28

up to the first sales kickoff event

for SAP it's called field kickoff.

845

: 00:41:33

And I show up to that event.

846

: 00:41:35

There's 15, 000 sellers in North America.

847

: 00:41:38

and you're learning how

do they do that at scale?

848

: 00:41:40

so I learned so much

there that was helpful.

849

: 00:41:44

my career and got tutored by

some amazing ops leaders there.

850

: 00:41:49

And, but then I also learned what, kept

Qualtrics as a small, nimble machine.

851

: 00:41:54

What's the advantages of

being small and nimble too.

852

: 00:41:56

Like there's a reason we were

outpacing growth of the big company

853

: 00:42:00

because we, we can move quick,

like steering a cruise ship's hard,

854

: 00:42:05

steering speed boats pretty easy.

855

: 00:42:07

So, learn that.

856

: 00:42:08

And then two years after the

acquisition, it was, we're going

857

: 00:42:11

to break off and go public.

858

: 00:42:13

And so we were ready for that.

859

: 00:42:15

So that was prepping for you go

public again for the second time.

860

: 00:42:18

And then actually going public.

861

: 00:42:20

And we went public in a COVID

environment, which was wild.

862

: 00:42:24

I mean, it was like a virtual ringing

of the bell, you know, it was like

863

: 00:42:27

a button and it wasn't a New York.

864

: 00:42:29

It was

865

: 00:42:30

like in the Utah office,

866

: 00:42:31

Justin Norris: it on zoom?

867

: 00:42:32

Cody Guymon: was on zoom, I was in my

house just watching it on my TV, right.

868

: 00:42:36

It was just wild.

869

: 00:42:37

It was just different.

870

: 00:42:38

And so, yeah, I learned a lot

about that, but then being public

871

: 00:42:42

is a whole different beast.

872

: 00:42:44

Being public is a different beast than

being acquired by somebody that's public.

873

: 00:42:47

we were a blip in SAP's

radar as far as revenue goes.

874

: 00:42:52

But then like actually, setting a beat

and raise model, you know, quarterly

875

: 00:42:56

earnings calls, prepping for those,

having actual stress of like that ticker

876

: 00:43:01

right there that I'm looking at, it's

going to go up or down based on the

877

: 00:43:04

quarter, whole different environment.

878

: 00:43:06

So I did that for like six

quarters, seven quarters.

879

: 00:43:09

And then, um, wanted to go back

private, smaller, do it again.

880

: 00:43:14

So joined Ricardo's later stage

series, E last valuation, 5.

881

: 00:43:19

7 billion.

882

: 00:43:19

And, just felt like that the team

here and the product is great.

883

: 00:43:23

And so made the jump here to try and

go rinse and repeat and hopefully

884

: 00:43:27

get Ricardo to that big, billion

plus in revenue one day and all that

885

: 00:43:31

fun stuff too.

886

: 00:43:32

Justin Norris: Well, I think

you made a good decision there.

887

: 00:43:33

And I'm curious as you were describing

that, really amazing journey.

888

: 00:43:37

you asked some hypotheticals, like how

do you communicate about opportunities?

889

: 00:43:40

How do you forecast it?

890

: 00:43:41

Like, I'm actually curious for

the answers to those things.

891

: 00:43:43

Obviously you can't give it in

depth, but give us an example.

892

: 00:43:45

cause it does kind of boggle the

mind a little bit about how you

893

: 00:43:48

would do that at that sort of scale.

894

: 00:43:50

If at least for me, who

has not experienced that.

895

: 00:43:52

Cody Guymon: So at each

level in an organization, you

896

: 00:43:56

sync with your counterparts.

897

: 00:43:58

And there's generally like at the head

company, like a sales leader, that's

898

: 00:44:03

over all of the lines of business.

899

: 00:44:05

Right.

900

: 00:44:05

So like Qualtrics, would represent

the global forecast for Qualtrics.

901

: 00:44:11

And so I would join a call with

the global SAP software leader.

902

: 00:44:17

And I would be one of 10

lines of businesses, right?

903

: 00:44:21

You've got Concur and you

have SuccessFactors and you

904

: 00:44:25

have lots of other products.

905

: 00:44:28

And so I'm giving the Qualtrics

number and then someone else is giving

906

: 00:44:32

this number and it's all aggregating

together in this like massive tool.

907

: 00:44:38

and then you get that forecast, right?

908

: 00:44:40

So that person's making the

same judgments against me that

909

: 00:44:42

I'm making like, am I truthful?

910

: 00:44:44

Am I a beat and raise person?

911

: 00:44:46

Do I miss a lot?

912

: 00:44:47

Like they're doing that for

their Global unit for the overall

913

: 00:44:51

call.

914

: 00:44:51

Justin Norris: So it

just becomes a roll up of

915

: 00:44:53

a roll up of a roll up type of thing.

916

: 00:44:54

Cody Guymon: it's a roll up of a

roll up and they're all the same.

917

: 00:44:56

Every call is the same call.

918

: 00:44:58

It's just a roll up of a roll up.

919

: 00:44:59

So think about SAP, like with

just a lot of product lines,

920

: 00:45:04

like if you at your company have

multiple product lines, right?

921

: 00:45:08

So like at Qualtrics, we

had multiple product lines.

922

: 00:45:10

So I would get a product line

forecast for each of them.

923

: 00:45:14

And so imagine that's just like a

line of business instead of like

924

: 00:45:17

a product within your own company.

925

: 00:45:18

Right.

926

: 00:45:18

It kind of is, it's a sub

product of a bigger company.

927

: 00:45:21

And so it's just.

928

: 00:45:22

It's kind of the same thing.

929

: 00:45:23

And it goes back to the principles

we talked about of like, how

930

: 00:45:26

do you get accurate at that?

931

: 00:45:28

You create transparency, you create safe

environments, you dig in and questions.

932

: 00:45:32

You have data that will support, you

ask really good questions that the data

933

: 00:45:36

says that validates or invalidates it.

934

: 00:45:39

But it's ultimately the same

thing, which is kind of an

935

: 00:45:41

interesting thing that I learned.

936

: 00:45:43

it's just a lot of layers.

937

: 00:45:45

So instead of like in your company,

you might have four sales layers.

938

: 00:45:48

You might have.

939

: 00:45:49

15 to 30 sales later

layers at a bigger company.

940

: 00:45:52

And each group has their own thing.

941

: 00:45:54

So the head of North America will

have a forecast with all the North

942

: 00:45:57

America line of business leaders.

943

: 00:46:00

And then you go beyond that.

944

: 00:46:01

And it's like the AVP of enterprise West

for SAP, we'll be meeting with all the

945

: 00:46:06

AVPs of enterprise West for all of the.

946

: 00:46:09

Lines of businesses because they all

got to coordinate on the, opportunities.

947

: 00:46:13

Right?

948

: 00:46:13

So it's like, if one of the lines of

businesses has a 2 million deal going

949

: 00:46:19

with Apple, it's like, Oh, I've also got

something going with Apple and the work.

950

: 00:46:22

Can I work on that with you?

951

: 00:46:23

And we can coordinate, right?

952

: 00:46:24

It's all about coordination at that point.

953

: 00:46:27

Pipeline transparency.

954

: 00:46:28

And, you're working a bill of materials

now with Apple at the executive level.

955

: 00:46:32

You're not just doing a departmental

deal with like, a manager you're

956

: 00:46:36

now going at like, Oh, wow.

957

: 00:46:37

We're going to deal with

the CEO of that big company.

958

: 00:46:41

it's going to be part of a larger deal.

959

: 00:46:44

We call them bombs or bill of

materials as part of a larger

960

: 00:46:47

bill of material transaction.

961

: 00:46:49

But it's ultimately the same thing as if

you are a company with multiple products,

962

: 00:46:54

Justin Norris: That's wild, man.

963

: 00:46:56

that's pretty far out.

964

: 00:46:57

appreciate that glimpse in,

uh, inside, you know, steering

965

: 00:47:00

the cruise ship, as you put it.

966

: 00:47:02

maybe the last, question we have time

for, and we'll just shift gears a little.

967

: 00:47:05

I, I'm super curious, for people,

especially that have, Managed to go

968

: 00:47:09

through these growth stages and have

achieved a lot just ways of working and

969

: 00:47:14

personal systems routines You have 10

million things that require your attention

970

: 00:47:19

at any point in time you start your day

How do you kind of figure out where to?

971

: 00:47:24

Direct your focus and make sure that

you're prioritizing the right things

972

: 00:47:29

Cody Guymon: Yeah.

973

: 00:47:29

I think, especially in

a remote environment.

974

: 00:47:31

people have got to have routines and

systems, I'm up every day, seven o'clock

975

: 00:47:36

in the morning or earlier, right?

976

: 00:47:39

It's never after I'm getting going

mountain time, usually seven 30.

977

: 00:47:44

and then I'll go late, you know,

if I'm working with, APJ region,

978

: 00:47:47

but like, I have my time dedicated.

979

: 00:47:50

My calendar is like insane.

980

: 00:47:53

I think we scheduled this

thing like six weeks ago.

981

: 00:47:57

Like, you just have to have

like, be dialed on like, do

982

: 00:48:00

you have hard work ethic?

983

: 00:48:02

Are you somebody that's just

going to crank, you know, and ops,

984

: 00:48:06

you should have a motor, right?

985

: 00:48:08

You should have an ability to work hard.

986

: 00:48:10

and so those systems, matter.

987

: 00:48:13

I think there's a second part of your.

988

: 00:48:15

Question about more prioritization

rather than like actually

989

: 00:48:19

like work ethic and tools.

990

: 00:48:21

And I think prioritization is always

the battle, but I talked about a little

991

: 00:48:25

bit earlier, but urgent and important,

where does it fall on that quad?

992

: 00:48:29

Is it, top, right?

993

: 00:48:30

Is it super urgent and super important

than we've got to prioritize that one.

994

: 00:48:34

And then where do they fall off and which

trade offs do you make are the other ones.

995

: 00:48:38

So that's generally what I'm trying to do.

996

: 00:48:40

I mean, every day I come in and I've got.

997

: 00:48:43

like a note card with like the

five things I need to like get done

998

: 00:48:46

that day or three things sometimes,

sometimes it's one thing like today.

999

: 00:48:49

It's like board deck board

deck needs to get done.

: 1000

00:48:51,820 --> 00:48:52,720

And I got this podcast.

: 1001

00:48:52,770 --> 00:48:53,440

That's like.

: 1002

00:48:54,265 --> 00:48:55,385

All hands on deck.

: 1003

00:48:55,465 --> 00:48:57,355

So we have a board meeting next week.

: 1004

00:48:57,995 --> 00:49:01,655

So coming in and I like to start with

like a fresh piece of paper every day.

: 1005

00:49:01,885 --> 00:49:04,105

And I just sit, you know,

early in the morning.

: 1006

00:49:04,805 --> 00:49:05,905

This is what I need to get done.

: 1007

00:49:06,055 --> 00:49:10,335

This is what we needed to get done as

a team one thing that I do is like,

: 1008

00:49:11,345 --> 00:49:13,235

what can I cancel from my calendar?

: 1009

00:49:14,665 --> 00:49:18,035

I think that's important every day

to do any of these meetings, do they

: 1010

00:49:18,035 --> 00:49:19,515

slip out of urgent and important?

: 1011

00:49:19,915 --> 00:49:21,605

And are they part of this

list that I wrote down?

: 1012

00:49:21,605 --> 00:49:23,445

If they're not, can I bump them a week?

: 1013

00:49:24,405 --> 00:49:25,525

Sometimes that's annoying.

: 1014

00:49:25,525 --> 00:49:28,285

Like, so sometimes if I've like bumped it

enough, I got to be like, okay, I got to

: 1015

00:49:28,285 --> 00:49:31,595

take that meeting because it's urgent now

because I've bumped it multiple times,

: 1016

00:49:31,595 --> 00:49:35,525

but I think it's important to really get

strict on prioritization and I'll say it.

: 1017

00:49:35,555 --> 00:49:37,735

Hey, sorry, board decks,

everything right now.

: 1018

00:49:37,925 --> 00:49:38,845

I got to bump this meeting.

: 1019

00:49:39,565 --> 00:49:44,288

but generally it's like being able to say

no, being able to push stuff off, being

: 1020

00:49:44,288 --> 00:49:47,598

able to prioritize your day and then

making sure things fall in line with it.

: 1021

00:49:47,598 --> 00:49:49,908

I think in day by day, if you're

doing that every day, then

: 1022

00:49:49,908 --> 00:49:51,448

your year became prioritized.

: 1023

00:49:51,618 --> 00:49:54,238

So I don't try and make

it like too complex.

: 1024

00:49:54,528 --> 00:49:59,318

I'm not one to like file it all in

JIRA and project management tools

: 1025

00:49:59,388 --> 00:50:02,688

I'm sure somebody can help me with

that, but I'm just like pen and paper.

: 1026

00:50:03,398 --> 00:50:04,218

Excel spreadsheets.

: 1027

00:50:04,228 --> 00:50:04,508

Great.

: 1028

00:50:05,024 --> 00:50:05,494

Justin Norris: I love it.

: 1029

00:50:05,544 --> 00:50:08,934

And I am grateful that I was the

second thing on your list today.

: 1030

00:50:08,944 --> 00:50:11,834

In addition to the board deck,

I really appreciate that.

: 1031

00:50:12,334 --> 00:50:14,324

This was a super fun chat, Cody.

: 1032

00:50:14,324 --> 00:50:15,984

So thank you very much for doing it.

: 1033

00:50:16,345 --> 00:50:16,875

Cody Guymon: Thank you.

: 1034

00:50:16,895 --> 00:50:17,485

I had a blast.

: 1035

00:50:17,485 --> 00:50:18,192

this was awesome.