Scaling Excellence Across Your Sales Organization - Kyle Asay

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

So let's face it,

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the sales leader has the

hardest job in the company.

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Although I think the marketing

leader is a pretty close second.

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And I'd argue this because success

in sales is black and white.

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Like you've either hit

your number or you haven't.

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The DocuSign has come in or it hasn't.

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There's no credit for influence

revenue or brand or MQLs.

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And while sales is hard enough as an

individual contributor, at least you

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have some semblance of control over

your destiny, but when you're the sales

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leader, your fate depends on other people.

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It's whether you can motivate,

enable, and support a team of

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sellers to all hit their numbers.

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And for those of us that work in

RebOps, we know that's not always

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the easiest thing to get all those

sellers marching in the same direction.

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So it's not surprising that when you look

up the average tenure of a sales leader,

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you see some crazy figures, things like.

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19 months and I'm really curious to

understand what top performing sales

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leaders do Aside from asking their

teams to update their forecast five

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times a day And so to help answer that

question today, we are joined by Kyle AC

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He has spent over eight years in sales

leadership at Qualtrics where he had years

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as number one corporate AE number one

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He's also one of the most prominent

voices in sales leadership on LinkedIn.

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In his spare time, you'll find him as

the founder of sales introverts, where

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he builds frameworks to help other

sellers experience the same success.

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Kyle, so stoked to have you here today.

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Thanks for coming on the show.

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Kyle Asay: Thanks, Justin.

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Excited to be here.

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Justin Norris: maybe just to start

off, we can focus on the current

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environment that we're experiencing.

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I'm a software buyer, rather

than a seller, but I know that

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I am buying less software.

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the software that I am buying is

scrutinized way more by, finance and

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legal and ops, uh, within my company.

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I am negotiating more.

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I am more price sensitive.

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Are you experiencing these

things right now as a seller?

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And like, how have you adapted to

this post reset world that we are in?

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Kyle Asay: Yeah, 100%.

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If anybody's not, shoot me a note

and tell me what you're doing.

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What I'm seeing is where we used to win

a lot of deals when we found a problem.

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Now we're only winning deals

when we find the problem.

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And so when we're doing our

discovery, it's not just understanding

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what is top of mind for you.

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It's what's top of mind for

you that's also top of mind.

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For your boss and other

leaders across the company.

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we're seeing a lot of problems that

two years ago would have been solved

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immediately, but are now being pushed to

the back burner because companies don't

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have the internal resources to solve it.

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They don't have the budget to solve

it, or they're just more focused

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with limited headcount and capacity

on a bigger priority problems.

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but yeah, we're seeing,

uh, it's tougher to win.

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It's tougher to win big

and it's lower to win.

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All, all those things are coming together.

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Justin Norris: I'm also finding strangely

enough, and I don't know what it's like in

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your specific niche, but, the places where

I'm participating as a buyer, usually

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it's actually even more crowded because

I think it's, there's, you know, lower

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cost of entry to start building software.

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So there's way more vendors.

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The landscape is changing.

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How do you think about.

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Standing out versus your competitors

or are you lucky enough that

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you have like a pretty narrow

field where you're selling today?

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Kyle Asay: So it's very noisy.

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It's never been easier to create

software to launch companies.

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that's part of why I was very

selective when I chose another

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company to work for with LaunchDarkly.

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they're recognized as one of

the top platforms in the space.

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So that helps.

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Like, I don't think I'm a good enough

sales leader to sell a bad product.

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So that, that plays a role.

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But even when you have the best product,

or you say you have the best product,

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because every sales leader says they

have the best product, we still have

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to deal with the increased noise.

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I'm really big on, for my team,

let's not just sell the best

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product, let's also execute the best.

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Because if you have a sales team that

is quality enough to sell an inferior

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product, and you're lucky enough to

sell a great product, those two things

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come together really, really well.

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So I'm all about, as a job

seeker, I want to find a company

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where their product is great.

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As a sales leader, I want to

drive sales excellence, so we

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can differentiate by how we sell.

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How we show up in discovery, how we

show up in demos, how we show up in

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POVs, so that way the buyers aren't

just thinking, okay, this product

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looks great, but they're also saying

the experience with the sales team

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was better than what I usually see

from other vendors in the space.

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Justin Norris: How do you do that

at scale like I guess that's always

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the the challenge because you as

an individual seller may understand

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how to drive that experience.

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is it a process thing?

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Is it like a coaching and an

empathy thing with your team?

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Like how do you figure that out?

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Kyle Asay: You take one

small bit at a time.

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And so this quarter, all we're focusing

on is our continued improvements on

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messaging for our pipeline generation.

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That was our first focus

in our PG outbound.

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How do we sound different?

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Then the competition, how do

we not come across the same as

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everybody hiding behind, auto

sequences and AI generated content?

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How do we come across

different in that first touch?

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Now we're putting more emphasis

on discovery from the very start

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of discovery, how do we show up

and tell the buyer, I actually

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understand your business.

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I understand you as a person.

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I'm not going to spend your

time for the next 30 minutes

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asking superficial questions.

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I'm going to get right into priorities.

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So now we're teaching that.

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We have a long way to go, because anything

that has to be brought out across an

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entire org cannot be fixed overnight.

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We're very intentional around what is

the most urgent thing to focus on first.

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For us, it was pipeline

generation, and now discovery.

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And then what are tools that we can

release through enablements, through

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marketing, to supplement the teaching that

we're doing, and how do we go enforce it.

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So we rolled out this

new way of discovery.

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We did enablement, now it's a scrutiny.

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Okay, reps, who's using it, who's not?

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I'm listening to calls,

I'm doing call reviews.

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We're coaching, because

it's not great yet.

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We're not differentiating yet by

how we sell, but we're going to

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continue to make improvements.

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When we fix that part of the

process, we'll figure out then how

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do we differentiate by how we demo.

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But how do we do POVs?

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And you keep going through the process.

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that's how you scale it.

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One, very small piece at a time until

you get people in the right spot.

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Then you're on to the next.

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Justin Norris: I love what you're saying.

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and I'd actually like to even just

go deeper because, you know, in

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RebOps, we're often a partner with

the sales leader and helping design

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and roll these initiatives out.

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I faced these challenges firsthand.

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So maybe just starting from the

beginning, like what you described,

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let's take discovery because

we can all understand that one.

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You want to improve it.

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how do you think through like, the

training or the framework that you're

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going to design up to the point of

like releasing it and like trying to

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get this into the heads of all those

people that you're working with.

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Kyle Asay: So you start

with the outcome in mind.

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What are the takeaways that we as sellers

selfishly want to have from the call?

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And then more importantly,

what do we think that the buyer

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wants to get out of the call?

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And then you design from there.

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And so we worked closely actually with

RevOps, we worked closely with marketing

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around, okay, what are the things

that buyers most frequently want to

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understand after a first call with us?

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How can we bring them that context

immediately in the conversation

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without falling into presentation mode,

without going into a premature demo?

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Then what are the questions that we need

to ask to understand their priorities?

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Their current states and how they're

measuring the negative consequences of

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their current state to see if we even

have a priority worth going further into.

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Then how do we marry those together?

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How do we bring together the

information that we know the

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buyers want to get quickly?

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With the questions that we want answers

to quickly and orchestrate it in a

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way we're in a 30 minute conversation.

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We leave.

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Do we have a priority worth solving?

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And is the buyer confident?

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That we're a likely enough

solution to solve it that they

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want to invest more time with us.

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And then the umbrella behind all of that

is the command of the message framework.

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I'm big on command of the message, never

going to claim I invented anything to

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do with that, but we're really big on

implementing that as part of discovery

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with the deck that we built as a mechanism

to drive a conversation with context.

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So the buyer knows that we're educated.

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And discovery.

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So we go deeper into what matters.

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Justin Norris: So you've

designed this, process.

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And let's say that like you as a great

seller, you could go and take that

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process and run a great discovery

to get your team up to that level.

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So first step, like, do you announce it?

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Do you have enablement, roll out a course?

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What's the next step to

like get them on their way.

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Kyle Asay: Yep.

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So the enablement piece is

all about the awareness.

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why are we implementing this?

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What are the gaps that we have so far

that we feel like need to be addressed

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to improve assessment or moving forward?

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Cause you got to get buy in

from the sellers to some extent.

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as much as sales leaders want to

say, and I'm guilty of this too.

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Sometimes I get it.

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You have to do this.

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Go do this.

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If sellers don't have the

buy in to understand the why.

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If they do implement it, it's not

going to be implemented well, right?

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It's not supposed to be

a check the box exercise.

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So the awareness of why, then teaching

how to use it, then it's also embracing

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the idea that it's not perfect yet.

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We know it's not perfect.

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This is new.

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We need to go get data, review

calls, figure out what's missing.

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But here's how we think it should be used.

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Go use it in this review together.

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So now we're in the

process of reps using it.

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And some of us are coming back and

saying, Hey, that went incredibly well.

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It was a great discovery.

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Others come back and say,

Yeah, that really flopped.

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That went terribly.

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Let's go look at why.

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What did we do wrong?

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What's wrong with the tool?

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What's wrong with our process?

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And then we calibrate.

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that's the process.

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Why we had to do it.

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Why we did it the way that we did.

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Here's how to use it.

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Now, let's go use it, get

feedback, coach, and get better.

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Justin Norris: I know when I am a buyer

and I'm in a discovery call, I'm usually

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sitting there like to show me the product.

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I I think buyers in general feel this,

like they just want to see product and

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there's good reasons to do discovery.

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And on the other side of the

fence, we want to qualify, we

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want to extract information.

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you address that tension a little bit in

your description of how you design the

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discovery process, but how do you like.

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Walk that line between like we need

some information to make sure that

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we are heading in the right direction

and that you know We know what your

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problem is you're trying to solve

versus you don't want to sit there

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and play 20 questions as a buyer.

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You want to see the product quickly

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Kyle Asay: think it is how you

set up the objective for the call.

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And I've been pretty passionate about

this for the long time because the

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buyer is thinking, How can you help me?

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How are you different?

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And how can you prove it?

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The entire time.

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There's that skepticism.

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There's these fears of, you're

gonna try to oversell me.

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You're gonna say you're the right fit.

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You don't know me, so I like to

be very clear from the beginning.

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job today is to figure out if

I'm right in my hypothesis of the

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problems that we can solve for you.

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And then we're going to leave the

call with you having a pretty good

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understanding of how we would go about

solving those problems, so you can decide

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if you want to continue the conversation.

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Now, before I can go show you

specifically how we might solve those

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problems, I do need a little bit

of context for how you're currently

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managing insert use case for us is

how you're releasing software, right?

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I'm never going to be so bold as to say.

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We are the best solution for everybody.

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That'd be a disservice to you.

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And so while I think we might be a

good fit, I'm not gonna tell you that

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we are until I better understand how

you're currently doing it, what the gaps

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are, what you'd like it to look like.

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but I'm given the commitment

upfront that we're not going

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to end the first call with.

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Okay, well, I just learned everything

about you that I wanted to know.

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I know that you know nothing about me

still, but let's schedule another hour.

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So then I can tell you how

I might be able to help.

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Some of the buyers are like,

nah, just send me a case study

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and I'll, I'll review it.

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Right.

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And so it's that balance of being upfront.

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I want to get to where you want

to get to as quickly as possible.

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Here's what I have to understand

before I can get you there accurately.

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Get the buy in, have that conversation.

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And then part of the deck that we have

is to sprinkle in some of the context.

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Here are the outcomes we drive.

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Here's actually a little

bit of the platform.

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Here's how it's constructed.

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Here's what it looks like.

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Here's how we're different.

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We're giving that context as

we go, so it feels more like a

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give and take conversation than

that 20 questions that you just

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mentioned, which is so

common in discovery.

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I just barrage you with questions.

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Then at the end, I give you this 30

second, like, Vomit spiel of a demo, kind

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of, and then I beg you for another call.

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Justin Norris: and you've kind of

alluded to that skepticism that uh a

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lot perhaps most buyers bring and I

thought I found personally like the best

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relationships I've had with sellers.

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They have been able to like build

some trust where I feel like my

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alliance almost shifts a little bit.

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Like obviously I'm always working

in the best interest of my company,

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but more like I feel a partnership

with the salesperson to try to get

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a deal done rather than like, we're

on opposite sides of the fence.

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how do you think about building that

trust, either as a seller or, things that

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you have your team do to build that trust?

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Kyle Asay: So trust and rapport,

I think are two different things.

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Just call it that part of my philosophy.

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Cause I was never one for being

great at small talk, right?

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So that's not how I went

about building trust.

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I think trust is feeling like the seller.

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Legitimately wants to find a good

outcome for you as a buyer, whether

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or not it's with their product.

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And this is really hard to do as a seller.

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When you're pressured to close deals,

it's really difficult to actually

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go authentically disqualify buyers.

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But I found that when buyers

give skepticism about something.

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Don't just disregard it.

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So yeah, that's valid skepticism.

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You should be worried about that.

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We actually have seen situations

where it didn't work out.

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Here's why, but calling out reasons why

you might not be a great fit for some

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people calling out reasons why they

may not be ready for your solution,

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calling out the risks and how you plan

to mitigate the risks are much better.

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Then, oh, we're so easy to implement.

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Everything always goes great.

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It's, hey, we get feedback that we're

pretty easy to implement, but here

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are some things that we see go wrong

that we want to get ahead of to make

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sure if you do move forward, you

don't experience the bad outcomes.

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Little subtle tweaks like that, showing

the buyer that we're not here to win at

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all costs, but we're here to actually

help them make a great decision.

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And if we're not the right

decision for them, end the

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conversation as soon as possible.

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So I can go back to where I

should be spending my time.

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There's a long way to build that trust.

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Justin Norris: It's interesting that

you differentiated trust and rapport,

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I hadn't thought of it that way before.

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is rapport still important from

your point of view, or is it

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just, it's like a separate thing?

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Kyle Asay: I think it depends on who

you're selling to, because there is

317

: 00:14:48

the emotional element of sales, and

think it's very difficult to work

318

: 00:14:52

with somebody that you don't enjoy

working with, but there are some people

319

: 00:14:56

that great rapport is built because

you understand their business, you

320

: 00:14:59

understand the outcomes they care about.

321

: 00:15:01

For other people, great rapport is built

because you understand them personally.

322

: 00:15:04

You understand what they like to

do, what their weekend plans are.

323

: 00:15:08

Uh, what I have found though,

is most people on like the

324

: 00:15:10

personality spectrum of, I want

a lot of personality and rapport.

325

: 00:15:14

They're all kind of medium, right?

326

: 00:15:16

And so for me as a very introverted

seller, there's only one deal

327

: 00:15:20

that I can remember where I had

to really elevate my sociability.

328

: 00:15:25

Because the buyer I was working with

was such an incredibly energetic,

329

: 00:15:29

personable person, where if I had

tried to get right down to business,

330

: 00:15:33

they probably would have shied away.

331

: 00:15:34

So I had to go way above my comfort

zone on the rapport building aspect.

332

: 00:15:39

But I found that most people are

more in the middle of the spectrum.

333

: 00:15:43

And so I default to look like

rapport is great, but deals don't

334

: 00:15:48

get closed in enterprise SaaS.

335

: 00:15:51

Because they like you as a person deals

get closed because you add value now

336

: 00:15:56

You're going to get the chance to prove

you can add value a lot more frequently if

337

: 00:16:00

they like you So you can't just be a jerk

and just go right to the business, right?

338

: 00:16:04

Like if they don't like you they're

not going to give you the chance to

339

: 00:16:06

even go prove it But if I had it just

one or the other I'm going with trust

340

: 00:16:11

because people buy from people that

they trust to actually deliver the

341

: 00:16:14

outcomes that they claim they can.

342

: 00:16:16

Justin Norris: 100%.

343

: 00:16:18

this is a tangent, but I'm curious,

because you mentioned being an introverted

344

: 00:16:21

seller, and I probably could have guessed

that by the name of Um, and yet, very

345

: 00:16:26

comfortable on camera, making videos,

putting yourself out there all the time,

346

: 00:16:32

trying to reconcile that a little bit.

347

: 00:16:33

Like, is it, a conscious going

against, the introversion that you,

348

: 00:16:36

feel or, uh, how do you navigate that?

349

: 00:16:39

I suppose.

350

: 00:16:40

Kyle Asay: So I can do it.

351

: 00:16:42

It just exhausts me.

352

: 00:16:43

And so as an introvert, I get my energy

from being alone, doing quiet things.

353

: 00:16:49

But when I'm doing my job, like if I

have to go give presentations to a large

354

: 00:16:54

group, if I have to go lead all hands

calls, if I have to go to an office

355

: 00:16:57

and get people excited about what we're

building together, I can go do that

356

: 00:17:01

and people will think I'm an extrovert.

357

: 00:17:03

What they don't see is when I'm at like

a multi day training somewhere for our

358

: 00:17:07

company, as soon as I finish my three

hour presentation while everybody else

359

: 00:17:11

goes to get snacks and mingle, I'm going

straight back to my hotel room, falling

360

: 00:17:15

onto my bed, and just like decompressing

for that 30 minute break before going

361

: 00:17:20

back to leave more presentations.

362

: 00:17:22

So I can do the videos, I can

do everything I need to do.

363

: 00:17:26

It's just, it's not how I get

energized, it's how I get drained.

364

: 00:17:29

I also enjoy doing it, ironically.

365

: 00:17:31

It just comes back down to where I

get energy versus where I need to

366

: 00:17:34

go, what I need to go recover from.

367

: 00:17:36

Justin Norris: yeah, I'm the exact

same way and I mean, I could ask

368

: 00:17:38

myself the same question because

there I am doing a podcast, but I go

369

: 00:17:41

to like a conference or something.

370

: 00:17:43

I'm back at the hotel room as soon as

the trade floor closes and just sort

371

: 00:17:47

of putting myself in that, vacuum,

getting some space so I can relate

372

: 00:17:51

completely to what you're saying.

373

: 00:17:53

I want to dive bit more deeply again

onto the sales management side.

374

: 00:17:58

And I think this is a common truth across

any role, but perhaps specifically in

375

: 00:18:02

sales, there can be like a promote to

failure thing where you have superstar.

376

: 00:18:08

I see you say, great, let's make

them a manager, become a manager.

377

: 00:18:11

and they fail at it either because

they're not prepared or maybe they

378

: 00:18:13

don't actually enjoy that work.

379

: 00:18:15

You've made that leap successfully.

380

: 00:18:17

what did it involve for you?

381

: 00:18:19

Kyle Asay: It involved a heavy

reliance on documentation.

382

: 00:18:25

And so what I found is, I generally knew

what I was doing to have success, but

383

: 00:18:31

until I really sat down and methodically

wrote out what I was doing to have

384

: 00:18:35

success, it was difficult to teach it.

385

: 00:18:37

So I began to document all the

stuff I was doing, the way I ran

386

: 00:18:40

discovery, the way that I ran demos,

the way I did territory management.

387

: 00:18:44

As I wrote it out, it forced me to

actually understand what, how, and

388

: 00:18:48

why I acted the way that I did.

389

: 00:18:51

Then as I was able to teach

it in a more clear way, it was

390

: 00:18:54

easier for people to adopt.

391

: 00:18:57

And then I had to go through the

transition of understanding that,

392

: 00:18:59

well, okay, just so I can teach it

clearly and it works for me, doesn't

393

: 00:19:03

mean that everybody can apply it

the exact same way that I have.

394

: 00:19:06

So then it had to become more nuanced.

395

: 00:19:08

How did I manage different

people differently?

396

: 00:19:10

And it all, grew from there, but it

started with pressure in myself based

397

: 00:19:14

on mentorship from one of my leaders,

Kyle, you know how to sell, but you got a

398

: 00:19:18

good figure on teach others how to sell.

399

: 00:19:20

And documentation became one of

the best things I have done for

400

: 00:19:26

myself as I transitioned from

an IC to a sales leader role.

401

: 00:19:29

Justin Norris: Is that common with others?

402

: 00:19:31

Because that's like a very rev

up such answer like documentation

403

: 00:19:33

and probably like that.

404

: 00:19:35

I love to hear that.

405

: 00:19:36

It isn't something I always see

from other sales leaders that

406

: 00:19:39

I've worked with in the past.

407

: 00:19:40

Is it common in your experience?

408

: 00:19:41

Or is that more of a you thing?

409

: 00:19:42

So

410

: 00:19:45

Kyle Asay: that I meet with that wants

advice on career progression, whether

411

: 00:19:48

they want to be an enterprise IC and

a strategic accounts rep or a leader.

412

: 00:19:53

Because people that are able to clearly

articulate how they have success are

413

: 00:19:58

more likely to be promoted than someone

that has success, but can't define

414

: 00:20:02

why, and some of them wants to go into

leadership, having a documented process.

415

: 00:20:06

I mean, talk about how easy my interviews

are, when I go into new companies.

416

: 00:20:10

So they ask me, what's

your process for this?

417

: 00:20:11

I just show them.

418

: 00:20:13

How do you coach?

419

: 00:20:14

Here's my framework.

420

: 00:20:15

How do you do performance management?

421

: 00:20:16

I wrote this.

422

: 00:20:17

I just pull up everything that I do

and it's very easy to articulate.

423

: 00:20:21

And then when I'm asked to

describe it, it sounds like it's so

424

: 00:20:25

straightforward and clear, but it's

just because I've written it out so

425

: 00:20:28

many times So if you're not doing it

today, do it because it'll pay off.

426

: 00:20:31

No matter what your career path is,

sales, rev ups, marketing, document

427

: 00:20:35

what you do that works and doesn't work.

428

: 00:20:37

Cause then when people

ask you, how do you do it?

429

: 00:20:39

And you give them a clear answer.

430

: 00:20:41

If you're like me, you'll look

smarter than you actually are, which

431

: 00:20:44

has great benefits to a career.

432

: 00:20:46

Justin Norris: taking it up for a

second because I'm a big fan of first

433

: 00:20:48

principles and I like define things.

434

: 00:20:50

How do you think about?

435

: 00:20:52

The job of a sales leader, like,

aside from like hitting the number,

436

: 00:20:54

like that's your job, obviously.

437

: 00:20:55

But in terms of like what you need

to focus on and do, how do you,

438

: 00:20:59

what's your North star as a leader,

439

: 00:21:01

Kyle Asay: one of the people leaders I

had early in my career was big on this.

440

: 00:21:04

So if he's listening, he'll be proud.

441

: 00:21:06

Uh, your job as a manager, whether

you're in sales or not is to drive an

442

: 00:21:09

aligned result for sales, the support and

aligned results is going to be revenue.

443

: 00:21:14

The way you drive towards revenue

is you're going to be recruiting and

444

: 00:21:18

retaining great talent in order to

recruit and retain great talents.

445

: 00:21:22

You need to be able to develop people,

motivate people and hold them accountable.

446

: 00:21:27

But if I bucket out the job of a sales

leader is charged with that foundational

447

: 00:21:30

layer, recruit and retain great people.

448

: 00:21:34

Which requires developing people, hold

them accountable to hit their ceiling.

449

: 00:21:39

If you do those things, revenue follows,

and then the aligned results of quota

450

: 00:21:43

attainment, high percentage reps sitting

quota, highly engaged sales teams,

451

: 00:21:47

high retention, all those things fall

into place with those focus points.

452

: 00:21:51

Justin Norris: you talk about recruit

and retain, and, a lot of that can

453

: 00:21:54

come back to who you are as a manager.

454

: 00:21:57

And I know when we think about sales

managers, you know, if you watch like

455

: 00:21:59

corporate bros videos, sales managers

don't come off super well, or even

456

: 00:22:03

in some of your own videos, you kind

of satirize yourself a little bit.

457

: 00:22:06

Just sitting there, you know, asking

people to update their dashboards.

458

: 00:22:09

but it kind of does

relate to a real thing.

459

: 00:22:11

There are some toxic

sales managers out there.

460

: 00:22:13

There's some managers that

people don't like to have.

461

: 00:22:16

obviously you can't just be buddy buddy

all the time, but being loved, not

462

: 00:22:20

feared, and yet getting the result that

you want, how do you figure that out?

463

: 00:22:24

Kyle Asay: Part of it is recruiting the

right people because the right people are

464

: 00:22:28

going to be good with being challenged and

held accountable to the right behaviors.

465

: 00:22:33

If you, recruit and

retain the wrong people.

466

: 00:22:35

Then you're going to be forced to

balance being the friend versus

467

: 00:22:39

being the cheerleader, and it's

very difficult to go have the hard

468

: 00:22:43

conversations around accountability.

469

: 00:22:45

So right people really is the

foundational pillar there.

470

: 00:22:48

Then from there, when you have the

right people that want to be challenged,

471

: 00:22:52

want to get better, I hold myself to

as high of a standard for developing

472

: 00:22:58

my people as I hold them accountable

to the effort I need to be successful.

473

: 00:23:03

And so I, love to go do

call reviews with reps.

474

: 00:23:06

I love to go diagnose their deals.

475

: 00:23:07

I love to go help.

476

: 00:23:09

I love to go help with

pipeline generation.

477

: 00:23:10

I'll send LinkedIn videos.

478

: 00:23:11

I'll make cold calls.

479

: 00:23:12

I'm not great at those things

right now, but I'll still try.

480

: 00:23:15

I want to do the work so that

people know that I'm brought in.

481

: 00:23:18

But what I've found.

482

: 00:23:20

Is when you're all in on developing

people when you're very clear on

483

: 00:23:24

expectations and why they are expectations

and why they matter and the reps buy

484

: 00:23:28

in that they matter, but you combine

great development focus and great

485

: 00:23:32

accountability to the right metrics.

486

: 00:23:36

Then you get reps that progress, begin to

see wins, as they begin to see wins, they

487

: 00:23:41

buy in more to what you're rolling out.

488

: 00:23:43

That gives you the license to roll out

more changes, more improvements, which

489

: 00:23:47

leads to increased adoption, more winning.

490

: 00:23:50

And then you do this right, and six

to nine months after rebuilding the

491

: 00:23:53

sales org, you're going to have a group

of people that are thinking, okay.

492

: 00:23:57

There is no company I can work for

right now where I'm going to learn

493

: 00:24:01

as much as I'm learning today.

494

: 00:24:02

There's no company I can work for

right now that's going to challenge

495

: 00:24:05

me as much as I'm challenged today.

496

: 00:24:08

And then why would they

want to leave at that point?

497

: 00:24:10

Justin Norris: You talk about the

right people and coachability,

498

: 00:24:13

obviously based on what you're

saying is a very important part.

499

: 00:24:16

What other criteria do you look

at to identify the right people?

500

: 00:24:20

Kyle Asay: So right people

will vary based on the company

501

: 00:24:23

that you sell for right now.

502

: 00:24:25

What is consistent for me is the traits.

503

: 00:24:28

So you're looking for coachability.

504

: 00:24:29

You're looking for high EQ.

505

: 00:24:31

You're looking for grit, work ethic.

506

: 00:24:34

Like I never want to have reps

that I need to remind to work hard.

507

: 00:24:37

I don't want to prod people along.

508

: 00:24:39

That's not a good use of my

time or their time so that the

509

: 00:24:42

traits are pretty consistent.

510

: 00:24:44

Where it differs a little bit based

on the company that I lead for are the

511

: 00:24:48

skills because transferable skills do

matter when you're looking at complex

512

: 00:24:52

sales cycles and larger deal sizes.

513

: 00:24:55

And so for me, I'm looking for proven

understanding of sales process.

514

: 00:24:59

It doesn't have to be my sales process,

but it does need to be an understanding

515

: 00:25:03

of how to methodically approach a deal.

516

: 00:25:05

So I'm not starting from

scratch with a seller.

517

: 00:25:07

I need to have a proven

ability to generate pipeline.

518

: 00:25:10

They need to know how to cold call.

519

: 00:25:12

Do good emails, use multi

channel, and they need to have

520

: 00:25:15

some level of technical acumen.

521

: 00:25:17

We sell to developers.

522

: 00:25:18

Developers do not inherently love talking

to salespeople, and you quickly lose

523

: 00:25:23

them if you have no grasp of their world.

524

: 00:25:25

And so while I don't expect a seller to

come in understanding our product from day

525

: 00:25:29

one, I do need them to have some level of

understanding of the technical landscape

526

: 00:25:34

or the ability to quickly learn it.

527

: 00:25:36

So when I'm hiring, I'm looking

for all the traits I care about.

528

: 00:25:39

Those are non negotiable.

529

: 00:25:40

And then I'm looking for at least

two of the three transferable skills,

530

: 00:25:44

because if I hire somebody with all

the right traits and none of the

531

: 00:25:48

skills, they will ramp so slowly that

they will likely get discouraged and

532

: 00:25:53

give up before they have success.

533

: 00:25:55

If I get somebody with the right traits

and at least 3 skills, they'll ramp

534

: 00:26:00

quickly enough to have that motivation,

that desire to keep going, and will

535

: 00:26:03

be set up for success within the org.

536

: 00:26:05

Justin Norris: I like the division

between traits and skills.

537

: 00:26:07

Skills obviously are

things that are learned.

538

: 00:26:09

Nobody, comes into the

world with those skills.

539

: 00:26:13

In terms of traits, do you think that

people are kind of born with them or

540

: 00:26:18

are those things as well, refined and,

learned over time, in your opinion?

541

: 00:26:22

In other words, are great

sellers born or made?

542

: 00:26:24

Kyle Asay: Great sellers

are definitely made.

543

: 00:26:26

I think there's some element of

traits that's DNA related, but I

544

: 00:26:29

think a lot of people, I have talked

to people that have incredible grit.

545

: 00:26:33

that have come from, very

privileged backgrounds and

546

: 00:26:37

very difficult backgrounds.

547

: 00:26:38

I've seen people from all situations

that exhibit incredible traits and a

548

: 00:26:42

lot of it is from the circumstances

that they fought through with

549

: 00:26:46

things that they learned, right?

550

: 00:26:47

And so I'm not a biologist, I'm not

an expert in that area, but for the

551

: 00:26:52

question, are great sellers born or made?

552

: 00:26:54

I think they're made.

553

: 00:26:55

Because a lot of the, traits are

things that can be developed.

554

: 00:26:59

And a lot of the skills are

things that can be learned.

555

: 00:27:02

And I have seen some reps

that day one, when I met them,

556

: 00:27:06

I was like, there's no way.

557

: 00:27:07

And then a year later, they're crushing

it because they wanted to work that

558

: 00:27:12

hard and they wanted to get better.

559

: 00:27:14

And they completely changed their skills.

560

: 00:27:16

I recently had, a rep where the

feedback to me was, Hey, that this

561

: 00:27:20

person doesn't interview well.

562

: 00:27:22

they've interviewed before and

they're just really poor at it.

563

: 00:27:25

And then they interviewed and they did

great because they had worked, they

564

: 00:27:28

gotten that feedback and they worked

so hard to prove us wrong in that area.

565

: 00:27:34

And it's a great example of someone that

probably wasn't born to be a natural

566

: 00:27:37

salesperson or natural interviewer,

but now I'm betting on them to be

567

: 00:27:40

a top performer in my org because

of how gritty they were to go push

568

: 00:27:44

through those areas and get better.

569

: 00:27:45

Justin Norris: That's awesome.

570

: 00:27:47

thinking about top performers.

571

: 00:27:49

I don't know, but I imagine when you

were in IC, there were maybe times

572

: 00:27:53

where, you saw a shortcut, you know,

in the process, or you saw a way of

573

: 00:27:58

getting the result that you wanted that

wasn't, standard operating procedure.

574

: 00:28:03

And observed as a common

trait of great sellers.

575

: 00:28:07

Like they'll just, you know, we had a.

576

: 00:28:08

I work with BDR's all the time.

577

: 00:28:10

We had a BDR and she was showing

us something she was doing and

578

: 00:28:13

she's like, yeah, I just, you

know, I delete the subject line.

579

: 00:28:15

I use this because I find it doesn't work.

580

: 00:28:16

Like they just instinctively will,

correct for things that aren't working.

581

: 00:28:19

And that's really valuable.

582

: 00:28:20

At the same time, you want people

to kind of follow a process.

583

: 00:28:23

how do you, a, do you observe

the same dynamic, I guess?

584

: 00:28:26

And, and B, how do you sort of use the

energies of those people appropriately

585

: 00:28:30

that are kind of a little bit maverick,

but often with a positive result?

586

: 00:28:33

Kyle Asay: Yeah, I'm, uh, I'm really

big on the philosophy of flexible

587

: 00:28:37

process or frameworks of a process.

588

: 00:28:39

It's really just words and how

you define them technically.

589

: 00:28:42

but the, prevailing philosophy on

it is great reps will adapt process.

590

: 00:28:50

To best meet customers where they are, to

best meet a territory where it is, to best

591

: 00:28:55

map to their, their current circumstance.

592

: 00:28:58

As an IC myself, I had this turning

moment when I was so focused on

593

: 00:29:03

memorizing the sales process and being

rigid with it and it not working,

594

: 00:29:07

to paying attention to where did

the buyer disengage in this process?

595

: 00:29:10

Okay, how can I tweak the process

based on where the buyer is today?

596

: 00:29:15

Because not every buyer

is at the same stage.

597

: 00:29:17

And my career took off from that point.

598

: 00:29:19

So when I'm teaching sellers today,

a great example, again, is this new

599

: 00:29:22

discovery deck we're using when reps

like, Oh, these slides in an order,

600

: 00:29:27

these questions, I got to be free.

601

: 00:29:29

I got to be flexible.

602

: 00:29:30

Like I agree.

603

: 00:29:31

I want you to be free.

604

: 00:29:32

I want you to be flexible.

605

: 00:29:33

I want you to change

the order of the slides.

606

: 00:29:35

I want you to change the questions.

607

: 00:29:37

But you can't make the process flexible

until you have mastered the process.

608

: 00:29:43

And so if I have reps that are skipping

through the process because they

609

: 00:29:45

don't understand it, that concerns me.

610

: 00:29:48

Because they're probably finding shortcuts

that are not going to consistently work.

611

: 00:29:51

If I have sellers that understand the

process so well that they're adapting

612

: 00:29:55

it, Based on the campaign, based on the

buyer, based on the deal, that to me

613

: 00:30:01

is as close to sales perfection as you

can get, because the foundation is good

614

: 00:30:05

because the process is good, but we're

recognizing that every deal has nuance.

615

: 00:30:09

Every deal has changes, but reps, before

you want to go try to have nuance.

616

: 00:30:14

Get good at the foundation,

understand the foundation.

617

: 00:30:18

Otherwise, you're just making stuff up

and that's not gonna work very well.

618

: 00:30:22

Justin Norris: So once you know

the rules, you can break the rules.

619

: 00:30:25

In other words, is what I'm

620

: 00:30:26

Kyle Asay: bend,

621

: 00:30:27

I'm gonna go

622

: 00:30:27

with bend.

623

: 00:30:29

Justin Norris: You can flex, you

624

: 00:30:30

can

625

: 00:30:30

Kyle Asay: Yeah.

626

: 00:30:31

you and, and you should,

627

: 00:30:32

right?

628

: 00:30:32

you should flex things because if you're

in complex sales by nature of the job.

629

: 00:30:37

Scripts don't work, Like in some

transactional sales, sure, a script works.

630

: 00:30:42

Go master the script, master the

intonation, master the body language,

631

: 00:30:46

but in complex sales, scripts don't work.

632

: 00:30:49

But if you're just trying to wing it,

and you don't have a strong foundation

633

: 00:30:52

of outcomes to drive and how to

drive them to work off of, You're

634

: 00:30:55

really going to struggle creating

sustainable, consistent success.

635

: 00:30:59

Justin Norris: I alluded in the intro

a little bit to the challenge and the

636

: 00:31:02

pressure of being the sales leader and

I truly believe that I'm in forecast

637

: 00:31:06

pipe review meetings where there's good

weeks There's bad weeks and the sales

638

: 00:31:09

leaders got to step up and speak to it.

639

: 00:31:11

That's a lot of pressure.

640

: 00:31:12

Psychologically It's a kind of heavy

weight maybe to carry all the time.

641

: 00:31:16

How do you?

642

: 00:31:17

Think about that.

643

: 00:31:18

How do you deal with it?

644

: 00:31:19

Is it just something you get used to?

645

: 00:31:20

Kyle Asay: I don't know

that you get used to it.

646

: 00:31:22

I think you learn to adapt and,

improve your mindset towards it.

647

: 00:31:27

I've definitely had periods

of pretty significant struggle

648

: 00:31:31

with anxiety and stress from it.

649

: 00:31:33

But, the book that I read that

I'm sure many have read the

650

: 00:31:35

subtle art of not giving enough.

651

: 00:31:37

changed my perspective in a really

positive way to good problems to have.

652

: 00:31:41

And so when I start to feel this

anxiety and stress about these numbers,

653

: 00:31:46

I'm like, okay, Kyle, but look at

the problems you get to solve today.

654

: 00:31:49

And think about how many people

would love to have the opportunity

655

: 00:31:52

to solve these problems.

656

: 00:31:53

And then I realized how lucky and

fortunate I am to get a play business

657

: 00:31:57

in this capacity and have a team that

I enjoy working with, with a great

658

: 00:32:01

company, with a great executive team.

659

: 00:32:02

So yeah, there's lots of pressure.

660

: 00:32:04

But for me personally, I would much

rather have the problem of pressure

661

: 00:32:08

and stress tied to hitting challenging

targets than the pressure of not being

662

: 00:32:15

challenged in a job or the the boredom

of not being challenged in a job or

663

: 00:32:19

people that right now are struggling

to find work in a bad economy.

664

: 00:32:22

That's stressful.

665

: 00:32:23

That's way stressful, right?

666

: 00:32:25

And so whenever I start to

feel that overwhelmed feeling.

667

: 00:32:28

I take a big step back, I look

at it, and I put my stresses

668

: 00:32:32

and problems into perspective.

669

: 00:32:34

And when I zoom out, my problems and

stresses are pretty minuscule compared

670

: 00:32:38

to what many people are facing.

671

: 00:32:41

And I consider myself very fortunate to

have the problems that I do have to solve.

672

: 00:32:46

And when that mindset flips,

the mood flips, the anxiety

673

: 00:32:49

slips away a little bit.

674

: 00:32:51

And this is a constant

remembrance of that.

675

: 00:32:53

I also like to remind my team,

like we talk about goals, we have

676

: 00:32:56

accountability on goals, but at the

end of the day, it's just a job.

677

: 00:33:00

It's how we provide a

living for our families.

678

: 00:33:02

Uh, we like our jobs.

679

: 00:33:03

We want to perform well, but the worst

case scenario professionally is not

680

: 00:33:08

necessarily a worst case scenario of life.

681

: 00:33:11

We're going to succeed.

682

: 00:33:12

We're going to fail at different

times, but it's just a job.

683

: 00:33:16

We're lucky at the problems that we

have to solve and let's do the best

684

: 00:33:18

we can together and try to have a

little bit of fun along the way.

685

: 00:33:21

And that mindset has served me quite

well as I've moved into technically more

686

: 00:33:25

stressful jobs in my career while still

maintaining somewhat of an even keel.

687

: 00:33:29

Justin Norris: That's a

really healthy point of view.

688

: 00:33:31

you put out a, uh, I thought it was

really funny video, satire of a day in

689

: 00:33:35

the life of a sales leader, but I'm,

curious, maybe there's some similarities,

690

: 00:33:39

maybe not, but what is, the real

day in the life look like for you?

691

: 00:33:42

Like, how do you organize your time and

what are the things you, you focus on?

692

: 00:33:45

Kyle Asay: Yeah, so a lot of meetings.

693

: 00:33:47

If you want to be a leader

in sales, especially the

694

: 00:33:50

second line, third line level.

695

: 00:33:52

It's a lot of meetings.

696

: 00:33:53

So I'm meeting with my leadership team

to understand the health of their team.

697

: 00:33:57

We're talking about their people.

698

: 00:33:59

We're talking about developments.

699

: 00:34:00

We're talking about their quota

coverage, talking about numbers.

700

: 00:34:03

A lot of meetings with the

cross functional leaders.

701

: 00:34:05

So making sure we have alignment with

marketing enablement with rev ops.

702

: 00:34:10

So a lot of making sure that the goals

that we're setting are complementary

703

: 00:34:13

to each other and that we're rowing

the same direction, not different

704

: 00:34:16

directions, a lot of interviews.

705

: 00:34:19

So I spent a lot of time interviewing

candidates, a lot of time recruiting, but

706

: 00:34:23

really most of my days are filled, With

nearly back to back meetings across the

707

: 00:34:27

day and then I do the rest of my work

Uh when i'm not in meetings all day and

708

: 00:34:31

that's just catching up on administrative

stuff like making sure that territory

709

: 00:34:35

assignments are getting done Making

sure that compensation plans are all set

710

: 00:34:39

correctly making sure that territories are

allocated to the right There's all sorts

711

: 00:34:42

of things that go into that above and

beyond just the meetings but yeah a day

712

: 00:34:46

in the life of a vps sales is uh, Probably

not as glamorous as many people might

713

: 00:34:52

think it looks like it's a lot of zoom

714

: 00:34:55

Justin Norris: You

manage both BDRs and AEs.

715

: 00:34:58

there are full cycle AEs.

716

: 00:35:00

There are ways of dividing up the role.

717

: 00:35:02

How do you think about running a

motion across both those types of

718

: 00:35:06

sellers and how to work with them

together in the most effective way?

719

: 00:35:10

Kyle Asay: That is the right now big

question because I'm new to this world.

720

: 00:35:14

This is my first time leading an SDR org.

721

: 00:35:16

So my first priority as I came into

LaunchDarkly was to go hire somebody

722

: 00:35:20

to help me build out that org.

723

: 00:35:22

I found a great leader that has run

global SDRs before that reports to me

724

: 00:35:26

and is helping us help us structure that.

725

: 00:35:29

it's interesting because the SDR to

AE conflict is often AEs saying well

726

: 00:35:36

the meetings I'm getting aren't good.

727

: 00:35:38

So wasting my time with the SGR

saying, accept my opportunity.

728

: 00:35:43

I hit my numbers and I get to

kind of sit in between the two.

729

: 00:35:46

And I can have the mindset of, okay,

well, the STRs, I don't, want an org

730

: 00:35:51

where I'm going and telling the CFO,

Oh, we generated 15 million a pipeline.

731

: 00:35:56

And then he asks, well, how much closed?

732

: 00:35:58

And I kind of whispered a really small

number and then kind of duck away.

733

: 00:36:00

I want to have an org

that produces revenue.

734

: 00:36:03

So part of that is a tight alignment

for what good looks like, but it's

735

: 00:36:06

also recognizing that when an STR is

reaching out to an enterprise account,

736

: 00:36:10

The first person we get a meeting

with is probably not going to be the

737

: 00:36:13

end decision maker for a purchase.

738

: 00:36:16

Part of the job of the AE is to go

hold those meetings and get a point of

739

: 00:36:19

view for the account that we could then

use to go get hired in the account.

740

: 00:36:24

And so I'm really trying to

find the right rhythm for that.

741

: 00:36:27

How do we incentivize the right

behavior where AEs and SGRs

742

: 00:36:30

actually work together on accounts?

743

: 00:36:32

Rather than an AE delegating

accounts, they don't want to

744

: 00:36:35

call themselves to the SDR.

745

: 00:36:36

And then how do we make sure that we

look at the initial STR set and the

746

: 00:36:40

account as the start to a broader

conversation, not a pass fail, is this

747

: 00:36:46

the champion to drive forward a purchase

of our software for a six or seven

748

: 00:36:50

figures within the enterprise account?

749

: 00:36:53

the other aspect to it, I think besides

the revenue production piece is I really

750

: 00:36:57

want the STR function to become the

main place I hire talent out of for AEs.

751

: 00:37:02

And so a big part of that is building

out a sales readiness program where

752

: 00:37:06

the SDR has come to my team, being the

best at pipeline generation, the entire

753

: 00:37:10

business, they've mastered that, but also

being quite proficient with discovery.

754

: 00:37:15

I don't need much more than that to

begin with, but I do want to close

755

: 00:37:19

the gap from them just being good at

PG, not knowing discovery to day one,

756

: 00:37:23

they can generate quality pipeline.

757

: 00:37:25

And they can run quality discovery

and then loop in ecosystem to help

758

: 00:37:30

support them the rest of the way.

759

: 00:37:32

So a lot to figure out as I

760

: 00:37:34

move into this world.

761

: 00:37:36

but, it's fun having the different

perspectives of an AE leader as well

762

: 00:37:40

as an SDR leader, as we think about

targets, incentives, how we hire,

763

: 00:37:43

how we retain, all those aspects.

764

: 00:37:46

Justin Norris: think about very similar

problems in my role, interestingly

765

: 00:37:49

enough, and like finding that.

766

: 00:37:52

Right place to put the dial where

like, you don't want AEs wasting their

767

: 00:37:56

time, but you also want to, one of my

coworkers has a good example of like

768

: 00:37:59

AEs who just want to like jump up

and like hover above the rim of the

769

: 00:38:02

basketball net and just wait for the

ball to land there so they can, stuff it

770

: 00:38:05

into the net and claim all the credit.

771

: 00:38:07

how do you think about calibrating

the qualification criteria of what

772

: 00:38:12

makes it through that gate to an AE?

773

: 00:38:14

So it's neither too

stringent nor too loose.

774

: 00:38:17

Kyle Asay: Right now we just have

a sales accepted opportunities,

775

: 00:38:21

which is pretty early in the stage.

776

: 00:38:23

the benefit to that is it's more

controllable for the STR function.

777

: 00:38:27

I don't like having comp plans and

targets with too much of it being

778

: 00:38:31

left up to another org to execute.

779

: 00:38:33

the downside to that is it can

drive artificial behavior of just

780

: 00:38:36

trying to land meetings that are

just good enough to be qualified.

781

: 00:38:40

And so really it requires a

constant feedback loop from,

782

: 00:38:43

Hey, we're hitting the targets.

783

: 00:38:45

But for the stakeholders that might

work to force, does our hitting targets

784

: 00:38:52

lead to meaningful outcomes for you?

785

: 00:38:54

If not, then we need to continue to

qualify how we structure either the

786

: 00:38:59

target or the definitions of the target.

787

: 00:39:02

Or our approach all together maybe in

a future podcast, I'll be able to roll

788

: 00:39:07

out the answer to SDR compensation

and modeling to align incentives.

789

: 00:39:12

Perfectly.

790

: 00:39:13

I don't have that answer today.

791

: 00:39:15

I have some opinions on it.

792

: 00:39:16

Like, I'm opposed to having a heavy

compensation model tied to quota,

793

: 00:39:20

closed because it's too lagging

and too out of control for the SDR.

794

: 00:39:25

I've also, though, seen downfalls to

having it being too premature in the

795

: 00:39:28

sales cycle because it leads to a

lot of production, but not revenue.

796

: 00:39:33

Because at the end of the day

right now, every business is

797

: 00:39:36

looking at these different

functions, especially in revenue.

798

: 00:39:39

And the question isn't, how

much pipeline do they generate?

799

: 00:39:42

Or how many SQOs do they generate?

800

: 00:39:45

But it's, what's the payback period?

801

: 00:39:47

What is the cost of the org compared

to what is the production of the org?

802

: 00:39:50

And so I really need to make sure that

as we're building out the infrastructure,

803

: 00:39:53

the team, the approach of the team is

with revenue in mind and with development

804

: 00:39:57

in mind, because if I can show the

organization of business, we're bringing

805

: 00:40:00

revenue to the table, at least enough

to support the growth of the org and

806

: 00:40:06

we're fostering the next generation

of great sellers at launch darkly.

807

: 00:40:10

I will feel fantastic

about the SDR function.

808

: 00:40:13

Justin Norris: when we think

about the role of the A.

809

: 00:40:15

E.

810

: 00:40:15

In terms of having ownership of the

full cycle, let's say alongside the BDR.

811

: 00:40:20

There's kind of two points

of view I've observed.

812

: 00:40:22

Like I've had Brian Lamont on the

podcast before he's a great AE and

813

: 00:40:26

his point of view was, I always want

to have control over my own destiny.

814

: 00:40:29

So I'm always going to do, some level

of, of outbound and pipe generation

815

: 00:40:33

myself, there's an opposing point

of view I've seen expressed where

816

: 00:40:36

it's like, that is, you know, a

waste of time of like a great ease.

817

: 00:40:39

They should just be focused on closing.

818

: 00:40:42

and so there's that duality.

819

: 00:40:43

How do you think about this?

820

: 00:40:45

Kyle Asay: I definitely align

more with my friend Brian on that.

821

: 00:40:47

great AEs, like the top 1%, will

find a way to succeed against their

822

: 00:40:53

number, with or without any support,

from inbound, partner, CES, whatever.

823

: 00:40:59

I, I don't know though that it's possible

to build a decent sized sales org.

824

: 00:41:05

In a complex environment where the AEs

are solely responsible for their pipeline.

825

: 00:41:10

And so I love a company where

they recognize that, yeah, AEs

826

: 00:41:13

need to generate pipeline, but

we also need to support them.

827

: 00:41:18

And so I love a mix.

828

: 00:41:19

the ratios can vary.

829

: 00:41:21

but I am generally, if you can tell

me, hey, I can get your AEs 30 to

830

: 00:41:25

40 percent of the way to their quota

between marketing, CS, partners, and SDR.

831

: 00:41:31

And then we need AEs to go self

source that remaining 40 to 60%.

832

: 00:41:36

I'm pretty comfortable with that because

what I found is AE source pipeline

833

: 00:41:40

is generally higher quality than SDR

source pipeline, which makes sense.

834

: 00:41:45

They're more senior reps.

835

: 00:41:46

They better understand the territory.

836

: 00:41:48

They better understand the product.

837

: 00:41:50

That's just the reality

of experience in sales.

838

: 00:41:52

So I already know that AE source

pipeline is going to be stronger

839

: 00:41:56

than some of the support.

840

: 00:41:58

Then inbound.

841

: 00:42:00

We don't always have control over that.

842

: 00:42:01

There's seasonality to that.

843

: 00:42:03

And if, inbound plummets, and

your quota attainment plummets to

844

: 00:42:07

the same degree, that's a problem

on how you control your destiny.

845

: 00:42:11

And so I love AEs that recognize

that, yeah, I would love

846

: 00:42:14

great support from inbound.

847

: 00:42:15

I would love great

support from CES and SDRs.

848

: 00:42:19

But if I don't get it, I'll

make up the difference.

849

: 00:42:22

and that's a big topic

right now at LaunchDarkly.

850

: 00:42:24

It's like, here's the support we get.

851

: 00:42:26

Here's the gap to close.

852

: 00:42:27

And here's what we have to

do as an AE org to get there.

853

: 00:42:30

And a lot of the AEs are leaning

into it and they're blowing out

854

: 00:42:33

those numbers they need to go get to.

855

: 00:42:35

And I can't wait to see the revenue

results as we improve support from CS,

856

: 00:42:39

as we improve support from SDR and they

maintain that focus on the pipeline.

857

: 00:42:43

Those are AEs that hit 200 percent

of quota, not just a hundred percent.

858

: 00:42:47

Justin Norris: It's a good place to be.

859

: 00:42:48

I think I know your answer to this

question probably, but, AI SDRs, you

860

: 00:42:51

know, you're going to replace your whole,

uh, SDR org with AI bots anytime soon.

861

: 00:42:56

What are you thinking?

862

: 00:42:58

Kyle Asay: I hope all

of our competitors do.

863

: 00:43:00

I hope they go all in on the

AISDR in all seriousness, I think

864

: 00:43:05

there are great tools being built.

865

: 00:43:08

The problem is anything

that can be scaled.

866

: 00:43:11

Saturates and anything that saturates,

even if it's really good is ignored.

867

: 00:43:18

And so when I look at the channels

that work for us right now in PG, our

868

: 00:43:22

best channels are the things that can

not be automated, can not be scaled.

869

: 00:43:28

And so when I hear AI SDR.

870

: 00:43:30

The goal is really personalized, really

value driven emails and messages at scale.

871

: 00:43:38

Well, when all of a sudden the

buyer has hundreds of emails

872

: 00:43:42

that are hyper personalized, very

valuable, very relevant, all of a

873

: 00:43:47

sudden, by default, none of them

are personalized, none of them are

874

: 00:43:51

valuable, and none of them are relevant.

875

: 00:43:54

And so I've seen a lot of the data

on it where people see a quick spike

876

: 00:43:57

as they uncover some of the low

hanging fruit, and then it decreases.

877

: 00:44:01

For me and my org, there are no

plans to replace SDRs with AI agents.

878

: 00:44:07

I'm really big on AI in sales.

879

: 00:44:10

I'm doing some work right now with

Clay around territory management and

880

: 00:44:13

my mind is blown at what I can uncover.

881

: 00:44:16

But all of this is to accelerate

what we do with sellers.

882

: 00:44:19

Not to replace.

883

: 00:44:20

So you'll hear me say often,

I don't believe in shortcuts.

884

: 00:44:23

I believe in accelerants.

885

: 00:44:24

I want to use AI to accelerate my SDRs,

accelerate my AEs, make us more efficient.

886

: 00:44:29

But the idea of replacing, maybe I'll be

burns, but I'm, I'm quite skeptical on

887

: 00:44:34

that, at least for the foreseeable future.

888

: 00:44:37

Justin Norris: No, I think you're right.

889

: 00:44:37

And I think, as an accelerant, as an aid.

890

: 00:44:41

As a way of automating, uh, work that

is repetitive, that can be automated.

891

: 00:44:47

as an assistant, I think that makes

total sense, but yeah, the, the

892

: 00:44:50

output that I've seen from evaluating

these tools, to fully, have a, AI

893

: 00:44:55

SDRs, I've not seen anything that

I'd want to expose to my audience.

894

: 00:44:59

let's think a little bit

about the relationship with,

895

: 00:45:01

sales ops or with rev ops.

896

: 00:45:03

We've alluded to it a few times.

897

: 00:45:04

I've had.

898

: 00:45:05

Cody Guymon on the show before.

899

: 00:45:06

I know you worked with him at Qualtrics.

900

: 00:45:08

He actually introduced us a great

revenue operator, really insightful guy.

901

: 00:45:13

How have you, not necessarily with

him, but just in general, how have

902

: 00:45:16

you thought about an experience,

this relationship with RebOps before?

903

: 00:45:19

Sometimes there can be tension,

RebOps and sales leadership.

904

: 00:45:22

Sometimes it can be a great partnership.

905

: 00:45:24

What's your experience been like overall?

906

: 00:45:26

Kyle Asay: it's one of the reasons

why I joined LongStar Arcly,

907

: 00:45:28

because I interviewed with our

RevOps leader and I love the guy.

908

: 00:45:32

Like, cause I, I view RevOps as

being a mission critical partner.

909

: 00:45:35

I cannot make good decisions.

910

: 00:45:37

without great data, or I can't

form a good hypothesis, I

911

: 00:45:40

should say, without good data.

912

: 00:45:42

I cannot structure an org and scale

an org through territory, through

913

: 00:45:47

targets, without a great partnership.

914

: 00:45:50

And so I view RevOps as being, the most

critical partner for what I do, because

915

: 00:45:56

they helped me work better with marketing.

916

: 00:45:58

They helped me work

better with enablement.

917

: 00:46:00

They helped me work better with

every function that partners with

918

: 00:46:02

sales and without strong rev ops, all

those things fall apart and we're no

919

: 00:46:06

longer rowing in the right direction.

920

: 00:46:09

I always joke that in a different

universe, there's another Kyle

921

: 00:46:11

that's just a little bit smarter

than this version of Kyle.

922

: 00:46:15

And he's our RevOps leader.

923

: 00:46:17

He's not in the sales.

924

: 00:46:18

He's in a RevOps.

925

: 00:46:18

I love the stuff.

926

: 00:46:20

And current, if you're listening

to this, uh, you know that I

927

: 00:46:23

love working with your team.

928

: 00:46:24

Y'all are, y'all are a highlight for me.

929

: 00:46:26

Justin Norris: So there's probably some

rev ops folks listening to this right

930

: 00:46:28

now that are thinking like, gosh, I

wish that I could have that sort of

931

: 00:46:31

relationship with my, sales leader.

932

: 00:46:34

And, obviously there's, the sales

leader themselves has a component part

933

: 00:46:38

to play in that from the rev ops side,

what would your advice be, like if

934

: 00:46:42

you were designing your perfect rev

ops partner, what would What are the

935

: 00:46:46

things that they should do to provide

maximum value to you as a sales leader?

936

: 00:46:50

Kyle Asay: transparency is big.

937

: 00:46:51

Like, especially when you come

down to things like target setting.

938

: 00:46:54

It's like, hey, when you share

targets with me, give me the

939

: 00:46:57

assumptions you're making.

940

: 00:46:58

Help me understand the

projections you're making.

941

: 00:47:00

be human about it.

942

: 00:47:01

Let's talk through things.

943

: 00:47:02

Like, it's always nice when,

uh, when you're talking about

944

: 00:47:05

quotas and you're understanding.

945

: 00:47:06

You're, you're balancing

the needs of the business.

946

: 00:47:08

You're balancing what morale will happen.

947

: 00:47:10

With comp plan stuff, it's similar,

because as a senior sales leader, you

948

: 00:47:15

don't want to over index to sales, right?

949

: 00:47:17

You do want to run a healthy sales

work to support a growing company,

950

: 00:47:20

but you also want to put out a plan

where your people can have tons of

951

: 00:47:23

success and make a lot of money.

952

: 00:47:25

And so having that transparency

aspect around target setting is huge.

953

: 00:47:30

Uh, because oftentimes I've

seen RebOps teams make decisions

954

: 00:47:33

off of bad assumptions.

955

: 00:47:35

And we didn't hear about the assumptions

they made until it was already ruled

956

: 00:47:39

out and a lot of damage was done.

957

: 00:47:41

Had they shared assumptions up front

that went into the model, we could have

958

: 00:47:44

challenged it in that moment, and we

could have come to a better conclusion.

959

: 00:47:48

And so view it as a true partnership, not

as like this little curtain between the

960

: 00:47:53

two where we have to kind of guard things.

961

: 00:47:55

Because not all sales leaders are just

going to push for the lowest quota.

962

: 00:47:58

Not all sales are going to go push

for the highest possible comp rates.

963

: 00:48:02

We understand the balance to the

business, but if you're not transparent

964

: 00:48:06

with everything going into the models,

you're going to miss out on valuable

965

: 00:48:10

insight from the sales side that if

you understood would probably change

966

: 00:48:14

those models and those projections.

967

: 00:48:16

So that's the biggest piece.

968

: 00:48:17

Be a partner, not a

policymaker and an enforcer.

969

: 00:48:22

Justin Norris: Good advice Maybe just

in closing last question we have time

970

: 00:48:26

for you've Built a really interesting

side hustle with sales introverts.

971

: 00:48:30

a huge audience for yourself.

972

: 00:48:32

You have 65, 000 followers on LinkedIn.

973

: 00:48:34

You know, I see you all the time there.

974

: 00:48:36

You get lots of engagement

in what you're doing.

975

: 00:48:38

A lot of positive feedback.

976

: 00:48:39

It looks like, just some lessons learned

building a side hustle, doing it myself.

977

: 00:48:43

I know it's hard.

978

: 00:48:44

You also have a family, you have a

lot of responsibility at your day job.

979

: 00:48:47

How do you, figure that out?

980

: 00:48:48

Kyle Asay: Yeah, my advice that

also goes to sales leadership too.

981

: 00:48:52

It's I, I focus on what I

am uniquely able to do and I

982

: 00:48:56

partner with others for the rest.

983

: 00:48:58

And so with my, my business, I

have a great partner that does

984

: 00:49:02

website stuff, automations.

985

: 00:49:04

Product design, all sorts of things.

986

: 00:49:07

the only things that I have to

worry about are content creation.

987

: 00:49:10

And that's easy, because all I'm doing

is taking what I'm doing every day

988

: 00:49:13

at my job, and then repurposing it

to be relevant to a larger audience,

989

: 00:49:17

and not just a little universe.

990

: 00:49:19

that I live in, uh, other lessons

that I've learned is not all the

991

: 00:49:23

feedback I get is always positive.

992

: 00:49:25

It doesn't happen often, but

sometimes I get very angry messages

993

: 00:49:29

from strangers, uh, and I don't

understand it, but it's just part

994

: 00:49:32

of when you put yourself out there.

995

: 00:49:34

And so I've had to learn

to not worry about it.

996

: 00:49:35

I'm trying to mature to the point where

when somebody is a jerk like that,

997

: 00:49:39

they just ignore and not feel the need

to respond and I'm getting better.

998

: 00:49:42

But my encouragement to people

is, The benefits to sharing what

999

: 00:49:46

you've learned far outweigh the

negatives that might come from it.

: 1000

00:49:50,924 --> 00:49:52,594

So yeah, I think those are

really the main two things.

: 1001

00:49:52,594 --> 00:49:55,864

I've had to learn what do I have

to uniquely do, how do I get help

: 1002

00:49:55,864 --> 00:49:57,844

for the rest so I can scale myself.

: 1003

00:49:58,284 --> 00:50:02,223

And then, you're going to do things

that get positive feedback, you're

: 1004

00:50:02,263 --> 00:50:04,193

also going to get negative feedback.

: 1005

00:50:04,483 --> 00:50:05,143

Don't sweat it.

: 1006

00:50:05,795 --> 00:50:07,955

things with people that you

get positive feedback from.

: 1007

00:50:08,505 --> 00:50:10,955

Justin Norris: I'll have to say when

I was researching this episode, I

: 1008

00:50:11,035 --> 00:50:14,305

think I came across some Reddit thread

where somebody was saying something,

: 1009

00:50:14,315 --> 00:50:15,575

you know, mildly critical of you.

: 1010

00:50:15,575 --> 00:50:17,805

And you actually jumped into

that thread, responded to them.

: 1011

00:50:17,805 --> 00:50:18,645

And they're like, Oh, wow.

: 1012

00:50:18,645 --> 00:50:22,268

Like my point of view about you

has changed as a result of this.

: 1013

00:50:22,268 --> 00:50:25,308

So I think that was a masterclass

of, hugging your haters

: 1014

00:50:25,348 --> 00:50:27,228

and turning them into fans.

: 1015

00:50:27,608 --> 00:50:28,628

I thought that was really well done.

: 1016

00:50:29,215 --> 00:50:30,435

Kyle Asay: that guy was rational.

: 1017

00:50:31,045 --> 00:50:31,395

A lot of

: 1018

00:50:31,625 --> 00:50:33,405

Justin Norris: everybody

is rational out there.

: 1019

00:50:33,405 --> 00:50:34,355

I understand that too.

: 1020

00:50:34,962 --> 00:50:36,552

really appreciate you being on the show.

: 1021

00:50:36,652 --> 00:50:38,392

Super insightful, super useful.

: 1022

00:50:38,392 --> 00:50:41,564

If people want to find you,

they can look you up on LinkedIn

: 1023

00:50:41,574 --> 00:50:43,104

or go to sales introverts.

: 1024

00:50:43,704 --> 00:50:47,574

com tons of great resources

there, but yeah, thank you so

: 1025

00:50:47,574 --> 00:50:48,934

much for chatting with us today.

: 1026

00:50:49,571 --> 00:50:50,081

Kyle Asay: a pleasure.

: 1027

00:50:50,081 --> 00:50:52,411

Thank you for coming prepared

with so many awesome questions.

: 1028

00:50:52,411 --> 00:50:53,431

I really enjoyed the conversation.