Inside GTM Systems at Hubspot - Rich Archbold

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

welcome to rev ops FM.

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Everyone today, we're going to take a

deep look at how to run go to market

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systems at enterprise scale and

even more exciting, we'll get a peek

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behind the scenes at one of the most

iconic tech companies around HubSpot.

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Today's guest is rich Archibald

VP engineering for GTM systems

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and automation at HubSpot.

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We're among other things.

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His team manages HubSpot's

own HubSpot implementation,

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FinTech and data engineering.

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Prior to HubSpot, Rich held engineering

and business systems leadership roles

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at companies like Intercom and Facebook.

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And Rich, I just have a ton

of questions for you today.

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So we're going to dive in and I'm really

appreciative of you coming on the show.

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Rich Archbold: Thanks Justin.

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I'm delighted to be here and as

I said offline, thank you so much

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for all of the content you put out.

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I am an avid listener of your

podcast and just find it so helpful.

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Justin Norris: Thank you so much.

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To start with maybe just a

little bit about your background.

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You've written about how you started

out, in more of an infrastructure

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backend engineering type of role.

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Transition to business systems.

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I'd love to understand from an

engineer's perspective, what kind of

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shock to the system did that provide?

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And what were some of the

learnings that you went through

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as you entered that field?

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Rich Archbold: so as you said, I

started off in backend infrastructure

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engineering and I think.

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I always loved solving hard, gnarly

scalability and operations challenges

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and didn't really mind if other people

didn't find them glamorous or if

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there wasn't a shiny front end set

of systems you needed to deal with.

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So perhaps it was kind of no surprise

that I Eventually made the move into

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business systems and go to market systems.

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It started out at Intercom, where at

the time we had a homegrown billing

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system that operated as an Integration

layer between Salesforce and Zora,

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and this was maybe 4 or 5 years ago.

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Now, when, I think we were making so many

changes to pricing and packaging at the

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time, and maybe how we had implemented

some of our usage based billing systems,

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uh, intercom just really didn't.

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integrate well with Zora at.

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we were having a lot of operational

challenges, scaling Zora and our CEO

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at the time said, Rich, you seem to

be good at fixing backend systems,

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any chance you could jump in and

take a look at our billing system.

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And that, really was the beginning

jump off point for me, diving into

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billing systems and realizing that

these are like fascinating, very

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difficult, Computational problems.

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there's real magic and innovation in

integrating between your pricing and

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packaging and somebody else's product

catalog and billing systems and learning

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how you need to match up data models and.

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found it absolutely fascinating.

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I incredibly difficult and just had a real

appreciation for the engineers and leaders

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who work in this space that there's,

there's just really valuable craft.

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I think, while the engineering work was

difficult, the more difficult thing was

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stakeholder management and understanding

who your internal customers are really

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being on that point of intersection

between oil and water, almost where

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you have, salespeople and sales that

really work to the quarter and have

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quarterly targets and have, like really

hard deadlines they need to hit and

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really, meaningful performance based

compensation that if they can't hit

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it, it's really materially impacts

them and engineers and product managers

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on the other side who operate to like

a much more gentle or longer term

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cadence and understanding the friction

that can happen when people don't.

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really understand each other,

and, don't really have the

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right empathy for each other.

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And that kind of human relationship

building and empathy and understanding of.

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Each side of the coin, I found every

bit as interesting and humbling

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as, the actual engineering work.

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And, over time, I grew to love the space.

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I like the.

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Breath of different people you

get to interact with and learn all

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different parts of the business.

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and progressively, then I moved from

leading our, teams in, owning, billing

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to when intercom hired its first CFO.

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I switched to report to the CFO to

build out are first ever centralized

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business systems function and run

go to market applications, which had

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salesforce marketo and intercom on

intercom, our billing team and also

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took over our data engineering teams.

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And again, that was just, So many

new things to learn that I'm really

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kind of motivated by learning,

and I love to learn new things.

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Some people would say they

have 20 years of experience.

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And I go, is that really 20 years?

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Or is it the same 1 year, 20 times over?

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And I try and kind of push myself to have

a new year of experience every time and

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getting to report to a CFO and having

all of, like, really Senior finance

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execs in your peer group was just a gift.

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Fascinating learning experience.

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Justin Norris: And you alluded a little

bit to the contrast between what you were

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doing in business systems and folks on the

product side, where you've got engineering

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teams and product management teams.

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And in that structure, every team's

a little bit different, but usually

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product management is kind of.

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The interface between, the customer

and business needs and then the

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engineering team who's responsible

for how do we bring this to life

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in a technically scalable way.

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And then in business systems, you

kind of have that stripped away.

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You're sort of judge, jury, and

execution are all wrapped up into

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one, so to speak, and that you've

got to interface with the business.

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You've got to define your requirement.

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You, don't have often that

separate product management layer.

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Was that.

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Disruptive for you at all?

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Or did you feel a gap not having

those functions surrounding him?

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Rich Archbold: Yes and no.

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You're right that it's totally different.

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And even if you do have PMs, while

those PMs share some common skill

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sets, how they approach their

job has to be very different.

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That if you're a PM, um, In core products

in HubSpot, you are building a product

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that is a good product market fit for

millions of SMBs, and if your product

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doesn't match 100 percent of the needs of

the customer, they still have the freedom

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to leverage their own engineering team

to buy or integrate a different solution.

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You don't have to do the last mile

Customer installation or professional

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services or customer support.

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You've dedicated teams for those.

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So it's really a, very specialized, very

long term, strategic thinking position,

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but when you operate as a PM of a business

systems team, you have one customer,

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usually an enterprise customer rather

than an SMB customer who you have to

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build 100 percent product market fit for.

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You need to do all of the professional

services, all of the customer support.

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You need to do absolutely

everything yourself.

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You find it very hard to say no,

because that customer you have a

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real personal relationship with

and that customer generally.

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Doesn't have the luxury or you actually

really don't want them to have the

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luxury of going out and hiring some

other consultant or hiring some

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other people because that leads to

fragmentation, collaboration tax,

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that's kind of how, you

know, you're failing.

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It's not whether your customer is like

telling you, you're doing a great job.

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It's whether they've gone off and

spun up a shadow it, function or.

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or.

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not, so I think the 2 roles are, I

mean, obviously, there's a lot of

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commonalities, where, you aren't

doing a Coupa implementation project.

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What you're actually doing is a

procure to pay efficiency project.

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And so you need to make sure that

you understand who is the customer?

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what is the business problem?

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What is the ROI?

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and don't get over focused on.

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Implementing any 1 particular

technology or other.

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So I think that's where those are some

of the, I mean, you need to be really

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great at communication and have great

empathy and great, problem solving skills.

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But, yeah, I think the 2 roles are quite

different in the go to market space.

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I think, that's really what we look

to have our best BSAs, step in and

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kind of perform that role where the

best BSAs are, part project manager,

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part systems administrator, part

systems integrator, part customer

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support, part solutions engineer.

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And, BSAs I've worked with, they

really, Look and feel like, a very

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operationally focused, product

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Justin Norris: And just in case that

acronym isn't transparent for anyone,

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BSA equals business systems analyst.

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Rich Archbold: Yeah,

business systems analysts.

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Like, I've seen multiple archetypes where

some business systems analysts will lean

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more on the, product owner or Product

manager, almost like a program manager

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archetype, and some will lean more towards

the systems engineer, solution engineer,

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integrations engineer, where they're

really adept at being able to configure or

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maximize a particular service or leverage,

integration technology, like Workado.

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So they're almost more like solutions.

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engineers, and I think it can be

very difficult when you're in a very

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small environment, you want your to

be able to do all of those things.

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But the bigger you get, it can be

sometimes difficult to have, like, you

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want to have some amount of Swiss army

knife, business systems analysts that

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can really jump in and do anything.

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But I think once you reach a certain

point, that's where you need to

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think about, do I actually need, A

Swiss army knife, business systems

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analyst, or do I need a dedicated

internal go to market product manager.

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And I think at HubSpot today, we're, I'd

say we're almost like 90, 10 or 80, 20

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in favor of each of our individual teams

are generally led by a product manager.

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And we do have some amounts of

amazingly fungible, business systems

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analysts who are really are the.

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glue in a lot of different projects

where they're able to participate in many

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different ways at many different levels,

depending on the project that is at hand.

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Justin Norris: so maybe digging

a little bit deeper than into

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your team and its structure,

where does it sit within HubSpot?

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Is it rolling up into like an it function?

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Is it connected to different

functional areas that you support?

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How does that structure work?

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Rich Archbold: So, today we roll up

through the, Product organization,

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so the R and D arm as such.

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So I have a product partner who rolls

up through our head of product and

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I myself roll up through our CTO.

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But for me, I always think I have many

bosses that I, like, I feel equally

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accountable to our head of sales, head

of marketing, head of support, our CFO.

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And, while the CTO is my manager, it's

great that, like, I certainly report to

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him from an engineering quality and from

an engineering execution perspective,

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but I need to make sure this is such a

highly cross functional space with, so

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many different, uh, leaders involved that

you really have to consider yourself.

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You are accountable to the, companies

go to market leadership team.

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Justin Norris: And when you say

you have a product, partner,

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tell us about that relationship.

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Like, how does that work?

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Rich Archbold: Yeah, so I have a

product partner, Kitty Chu, who is

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based in Seattle and Kitty and I, so

our mission is to help bring HubSpot's

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go to market strategy to life.

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And so the, 2 of us will

partner with each of the various

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different go to market leaders to.

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Understand what the company's go to market

strategy is, how it's going to be evolving

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each year and then use that to break down.

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what are the big rock projects?

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We need to get our teams

to execute in each of the

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different parts of the business.

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As I said, each of the

teams generally have, uh.

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Product manager, uh, designer and an

engineer and all of the product people

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roll up through my product partner and all

of the engineering people roll up through

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me.

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Justin Norris: Got it.

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So it really is structured in a lot

of ways, like an externally facing

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product team would be with engineering

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product

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Rich Archbold: very much so.

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And we share a lot of the same core

values around solving for the customer

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and making sure that we're, thinking

long term and that we're building really

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high quality into the product services,

workflows and data that we generate.

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Justin Norris: So kind of traveling

down the tree, if you like, of,

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your org structure, beneath you

and kitty, how do you structure

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those different groups or pods?

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Are they around systems or are they

around the go to market teams or

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what does that structure look like?

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Rich Archbold: we try and set up

our teams to, try and generate

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relatively clean relationships

with each of our key stakeholders.

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So there's a marketing focused

team or a marketing focused group.

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There's a sales focused group.

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There is a customer support

and success focused group.

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There's a partner focused group.

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And then we have a shared kind

of CRM, data, focused, function.

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As well.

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And then as I said, we have our

FinTech, function, which is kind of

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like our own homegrown, uh, pricing and

packaging, CPQ billing invoicing and,

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some of our finance systems, functions.

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And all of those individual groups or

teams at various different layers would

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have a product management leader, uh,

design leader, and an engineering leader.

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And we have this concept

of what we call interlock.

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So this would be, a set of regularly

occurring meetings where you'd

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have members from, like, the go to

market systems function and their

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relevant counterparts in, rev ops

or, the various different in field

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leadership functions, like a sales

leader or a marketing leader or, uh.

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support leader, and we, kind of realized

that this is like a fast moving space.

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It's very cross functional.

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we have a concept of hashtag 1 team

that even though we all roll up to

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different leaders, you have to think of

yourself as like 1 cross functional team.

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It's up to you all to make

the decisions and make sure

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that there's minimal friction.

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Between Rev Ops and engineering or Rev

Ops and product or sales and Rev Ops, we

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try and think of ourselves as just one,

cross functional team, working together

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to help bring our go to market strategy to

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Justin Norris: life.

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And in a smaller organization, a lot of

the systems ownership, you know, usually

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lives within RebOps or marketing ops,

you know, this functional ops teams.

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Um, How do you think about the

roles and responsibilities with your

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group and then the rev ops function?

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Like what do they do?

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They're a stakeholder of yours.

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I am assuming.

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but how do those lines

of responsibility flow,

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Rich Archbold: that's a great question.

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And what I think of the Product teams that

roll up through me as much as possible.

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We're trying to build systems and

build functions that allow RevOps

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to have the right level of agency

and control and configuration.

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We actually want them to be able

to move fast and experiment.

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And so I think about it as like

trying to keep the cycle times.

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Low and keep the agility high.

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So in each of our rev ops teams, we do

have some that have hands on ability

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to make changes or have some work out

our skill sets to, do some last mile

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Automation and, customization, know,

I've been, I've seen organizations

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in the past where, people try and

put every single thing inside of

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that single business systems function

or single sales systems function.

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And I think, I've seen the cycle

times be too high, around that.

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And I think you really need to strive

to give the business the right level

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of agility and control over the

things that are happening day to day.

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And if there's a small change that.

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Can be made, you want it made as close

as possible to the person requesting it.

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And I think that's why we have

powerful, easy to use platforms

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like CRM platforms, right?

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Like that, I, I think that

is some of the value of it.

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So I definitely do like the.

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Centralized teams to a certain extent,

because I think that removes some

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siloing and allows you to make bigger,

bolder decisions more, quickly.

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It allows you to stay focused on customer

problems rather than parts of a process.

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But I also think it's just really

important that the business feels like

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they are beholden to you for every

single change they want to make, that

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they will have the right context.

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you just want to be able to have

the shortest possible cycle times

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for, the categories of change

that, that actually makes sense

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for.

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Justin Norris: what you just mentioned

to me addresses what I've observed.

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And also what I think is generally

perceived as the major risk and

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shortcoming of the centralized team

is that you essentially recreate

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the it dynamic where it's like.

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A big queue of tickets, it's

sort of this fortress mentality.

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They're pushing away work We'll see you

in three months and of course that's what

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leads to the the shadow it cropping up

again or the consultants or we just have

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to do it on the side i've also seen to

your point that you know inevitably folks

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that are coming up through operations

that don't necessarily have like Maybe

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they develop systems expertise, but

it isn't necessarily their background

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You Eventually when you're thinking

about an enterprise architecture vision

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you go beyond what those folks are

able to accomplish at least without

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Further upskilling and you really do

get into a much more technical domain

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So it seems like you have this sweet

spot dynamic setup do you feel that?

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This is just inevitable that, you know,

once you pass, I don't know what it is, 5,

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000 employees for, I don't know, whatever

the number is that you have to kind

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of have a centralized business systems

function, or do you think that you can

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just have functional ownership of tools,

you know, within ops teams in perpetuity,

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Rich Archbold: You know, the answer is,

I think it depends, if you have a, a

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relatively simple and stable, business

model, and you're not making a lot of

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changes to your go to market strategy, I

think you can keep things simple and keep

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functional ownership, as long as you can.

302

: 00:19:23

But I do think there's certainly a

level of change that happens, a tipping

303

: 00:19:29

point of complexity or tipping point

of change where you actually can't make

304

: 00:19:35

changes in isolation, where if we're

going to start selling a new product,

305

: 00:19:39

we need a new skew in salesforce.

306

: 00:19:43

We need to be able to meet her.

307

: 00:19:44

It's usage in a new, different way.

308

: 00:19:46

In our billing system, we need to be

able to account for revenue and in.

309

: 00:19:50

In a different way inside

of our Rev Rec system.

310

: 00:19:52

It's going to mean different

product usage data flowing into

311

: 00:19:55

our customer success platform.

312

: 00:19:57

I'm going to mean that we try and drive

cross sell upsell renewal a different way.

313

: 00:20:03

I think it's really hard to implement

those type of transformational projects

314

: 00:20:07

or really big step function projects

without some sort of, central governance

315

: 00:20:13

or, architecture and, management.

316

: 00:20:16

So I think, yeah, you just kind of reach a

tipping point of complexity where it makes

317

: 00:20:21

sense to have a more centralized function.

318

: 00:20:24

But, That doesn't mean that every time

you want to add a new field inside of the

319

: 00:20:28

CRM, it needs to go to that centralized

team either, though, you know, I think

320

: 00:20:32

that that's where I mean, there's some

some types of changes where you really

321

: 00:20:36

want to make sure the teams closest

to the problem have the right level

322

: 00:20:40

of agency and autonomy over solving

323

: 00:20:42

them.

324

: 00:20:43

Justin Norris: a bit of a, like

a hub and spoke model, if you

325

: 00:20:45

want to think about it that

326

: 00:20:46

Rich Archbold: exactly.

327

: 00:20:47

Justin Norris: Yeah, no, that

makes makes perfect sense.

328

: 00:20:51

Let's talk a little bit about

your stack, which is kind of

329

: 00:20:54

a fun thing to think about.

330

: 00:20:55

I presume HubSpot's in there somewhere.

331

: 00:20:56

what else are you folks using?

332

: 00:20:59

Rich Archbold: definitely HubSpot is

pretty much the center of everything and

333

: 00:21:02

we're a massive, marketing hub, sales hub,

service hub, and, HubSpot CRM platform.

334

: 00:21:09

we use a lot of our own CRM UI extension

capabilities in order to build the spoke

335

: 00:21:16

and tailored experiences inside of HubSpot

and customize the views we provide to,

336

: 00:21:23

each of our different reps and our PMs

and designers spend a lot of time talking

337

: 00:21:28

to our internal stakeholders to make

sure we're tailoring those correctly.

338

: 00:21:33

one of the.

339

: 00:21:34

More interesting ones that we've

launched recently was using our

340

: 00:21:37

own prospecting workspace to help

organize the, prospecting layout and,

341

: 00:21:42

uh, and tool tips that We provide

to our reps and adoption for that.

342

: 00:21:47

And engagement with that has

been, very high from A CPQ.

343

: 00:21:54

And, and, billing and invoicing

perspective, a lot of that

344

: 00:21:57

is custom to ourselves.

345

: 00:21:59

And we have, uh, quite an artisanal

set of, processes and capabilities.

346

: 00:22:04

And that's something that

our, FinTech organization

347

: 00:22:07

takes care of on the back end.

348

: 00:22:09

We use NetSuite, from a, call

recording and coaching perspective.

349

: 00:22:14

We use Gong and are, and

we are big fans of Gong.

350

: 00:22:18

We think that's a great product as well.

351

: 00:22:20

from a.

352

: 00:22:21

Data engineering.

353

: 00:22:22

So from an analytical data perspective,

all of our data flows into snowflake.

354

: 00:22:26

We're, big fans of dbt and, looker

and airflow from, uh, an automation

355

: 00:22:32

and, data plumbing perspective,

Yeah, curious, what else, are you

356

: 00:22:36

you mentioned WorkAuto

a few times as well.

357

: 00:22:38

Yeah, so Workado, we're, we're

massive, massive fans of Workado.

358

: 00:22:43

And, use, that as our

last mile automation.

359

: 00:22:47

And, in some cases,

integration technology.

360

: 00:22:50

And, you know, our teams have built some

really novel, Automation on top of that.

361

: 00:22:54

And I've used it to, create some hooks

into chat GPT and, yeah, just some really

362

: 00:23:00

interesting use cases there as well.

363

: 00:23:02

I come from, the Marketo space, you

know, traditionally, although I've

364

: 00:23:05

always been a HubSpot respecter, but

the conventional wisdom, let's say

365

: 00:23:10

on the street, at least in Marketo

circles, it's sort of like HubSpot.

366

: 00:23:13

Yeah, it's good.

367

: 00:23:14

But you know, you might reach a point

where you can't scale it and you're going

368

: 00:23:18

to need to migrate to, and same thing,

I guess, with the CRM to Salesforce.

369

: 00:23:23

Here you are obviously

a very large enterprise.

370

: 00:23:26

Uh, using HubSpot for both

CRM and marketing automation.

371

: 00:23:30

how would you respond?

372

: 00:23:31

Let's say if someone proposed that

point of view to you, like, yeah,

373

: 00:23:34

it won't necessarily scale with you.

374

: 00:23:36

Like you've scaled it.

375

: 00:23:37

what are your thoughts on them?

376

: 00:23:39

I think that's wrong.

377

: 00:23:41

so I've come from a world of, so at

Intercom I use Salesforce and, Marketo,

378

: 00:23:47

and I would say the bane of my life was

dealing with, you know, Duplicate leads

379

: 00:23:52

in, Marketo to, HubSpot, uh, syncs and

bottlenecks and integration and having

380

: 00:23:58

to deal with multi enrichment challenges

between, Marketo and Salesforce and trying

381

: 00:24:03

to implement ring lead as a solution

to try and have, centralized enrichment

382

: 00:24:08

and account management and survivorship.

383

: 00:24:10

But, when, I left Intercom, I wanted to

go to HubSpot because I felt like they

384

: 00:24:14

had it all sorted out and I wanted to

have one single stack that everything,

385

: 00:24:19

was there and present with a single

consistent data model that I could have

386

: 00:24:23

marketing and sales, both used together.

387

: 00:24:26

Didn't have to deal with

any integration challenges.

388

: 00:24:28

It was just all there natively.

389

: 00:24:30

And now I'm living in the

promised land, you know, it works.

390

: 00:24:33

And so there's a whole

degree of challenges that,

391

: 00:24:35

I didn't have to deal with.

392

: 00:24:37

that now I don't have to deal

with because I have that seamless

393

: 00:24:40

integration and the partnership between

marketing and sales and the handle.

394

: 00:24:44

I mean, you're working in the go to market

world for a while and you go, what are

395

: 00:24:48

some of your hard fought lessons learned?

396

: 00:24:50

Handoffs between teams and tools is like

where all of the friction is, going to

397

: 00:24:55

happen is where a lot of the data quality

issues, where a lot of the scalability

398

: 00:24:58

bottlenecks are going to happen.

399

: 00:24:59

It's going to make problems twice as hard.

400

: 00:25:04

I don't have to deal with that.

401

: 00:25:05

You know, I've got everybody in the

one platform with a shared data model.

402

: 00:25:09

They've got the same source of truth.

403

: 00:25:11

That does, sound nice.

404

: 00:25:12

let's think about, innovation

on the platform in general.

405

: 00:25:17

I assume you've had to push the

boundaries in some cases to.

406

: 00:25:22

You know, solve interesting

challenges that you've had.

407

: 00:25:24

What are just some cool things, I guess,

that you're doing on your own platform

408

: 00:25:28

that might be interesting to folks,

409

: 00:25:30

as I said, probably the most fun for

us at the moment is that prospecting

410

: 00:25:34

workspace and feels like we have, you

know, we're really able to, partner deeply

411

: 00:25:40

with our reps and understand what is the

absolute ideal workflow you want to have.

412

: 00:25:44

Like we can do lots of rep shadowing

and really build that empathy for our

413

: 00:25:48

reps and go where do you wish you had?

414

: 00:25:50

what's your ideal layout here?

415

: 00:25:52

How would you like

things to be prioritized?

416

: 00:25:54

if you could wave a magic wand,

how would this work for you?

417

: 00:25:58

And the HubSpots, prospecting

workspace layout, and then the CRM,

418

: 00:26:02

UI capabilities give us the ability

to really bring that to life.

419

: 00:26:07

Pretty quickly and easily, which has

been, just wonderful to see, I guess.

420

: 00:26:12

I'm just trying to think of, like, some

of the other things that we're that

421

: 00:26:16

we're doing that

422

: 00:26:17

maybe just on the, on the prospector

workspace, because I'm super interested

423

: 00:26:20

in that feature and I've, I've read a

bit about it, but let me just tell you,

424

: 00:26:23

give you my read on what I think it is.

425

: 00:26:25

You can tell me if I'm right or not,

but it kind of solves that perennial

426

: 00:26:30

challenge of, you know, I've got one lead

or contact or person record, whatever we

427

: 00:26:34

call it within that system's nomenclature.

428

: 00:26:36

but that person may go through a buying

process or a funnel trip Multiple times,

429

: 00:26:41

and it's very difficult to, report on

that, to capture that because the data

430

: 00:26:45

model is, kind of one dimensional.

431

: 00:26:47

And so the prospecting workspace sort

of introduces this idea of many, I

432

: 00:26:51

don't know if you call them leads or

what they're called exactly, but many

433

: 00:26:54

different entities that can relate

to that single person that represent

434

: 00:26:57

those iterative buying journeys.

435

: 00:26:59

is that what it is?

436

: 00:27:01

the problem, that we use it to solve is

437

: 00:27:04

slightly different.

438

: 00:27:05

And the way I describe the problem

is I'm a sales rep and I have

439

: 00:27:09

hundreds of companies under my name.

440

: 00:27:13

And, some of these companies are,

already customers and I need to, Think

441

: 00:27:19

about account management and account

maintenance and cross sell upsell.

442

: 00:27:24

Some of them are cold prospects,

and some of them are warm prospects.

443

: 00:27:29

And I've got hundreds of these

inside of my capacity like that

444

: 00:27:32

are assigned to me and every day.

445

: 00:27:34

I need to come in and figure

out what's the best way for

446

: 00:27:36

me to spend my time today.

447

: 00:27:38

there's undoubtedly been.

448

: 00:27:40

Maybe a lot of signals that have happened.

449

: 00:27:42

Maybe there's been new enrichment events,

or, new activities on our marketing sites

450

: 00:27:48

that might have contributed to events.

451

: 00:27:51

Maybe the companies that are actually

customers of mine, there's been

452

: 00:27:55

some new usage data that has flowed

into the system and I'm a rep with.

453

: 00:28:02

to meet what should I do today?

454

: 00:28:05

And so what we use our prospecting

workspace is a way to, break up the

455

: 00:28:11

companies segment, the companies that

reps own into kind of like cold, warm,

456

: 00:28:16

maybe hot, existing customers then we

can use various different types of,

457

: 00:28:21

machine learning models in the background.

458

: 00:28:23

To help prioritize the activities for the

rep and make it transparent to the rep why

459

: 00:28:30

we have prioritized different things in.

460

: 00:28:33

Different ways to just make it much

easier for the rep when they come in

461

: 00:28:36

in the morning, not to be hit with,

just a search list of here are hundreds

462

: 00:28:41

of companies that you are responsible

for looking after and for them having

463

: 00:28:45

to think about lots of searching and

filtering to actually come in with a

464

: 00:28:49

beautiful, tailored, high quality, UI

that, fits natively inside of HubSpot,

465

: 00:28:56

where there has been a lot of, you know,

thoughtful engineering in the background

466

: 00:28:59

to make sure that we're showing them the.

467

: 00:29:03

Most actionable things for them to

do and making it easy for them to

468

: 00:29:07

understand why

469

: 00:29:08

Justin Norris: Got it.

470

: 00:29:09

So it's more about prioritization,

sort of task management or activity

471

: 00:29:13

management and, uh, and directing them.

472

: 00:29:16

And you've alluded a few times to the

UI customization capabilities, and I'll

473

: 00:29:20

confess, I'm, I'm a little bit ignorant,

actually, of HubSpot's capabilities in

474

: 00:29:24

this area are actually a lot ignorant.

475

: 00:29:26

what can you tell me?

476

: 00:29:28

Is it akin to like a Salesforce

lightning page layout or like a

477

: 00:29:32

Rich Archbold: very much.

478

: 00:29:32

So yeah, very much.

479

: 00:29:34

So, so like a lot of the flexibility

and customization you have with that,

480

: 00:29:38

there's lots of kind of like low

code ways that you can customize it,

481

: 00:29:44

but we can go as far as embedding an

iframe directly inside of a particular

482

: 00:29:49

portion of one of those windows.

483

: 00:29:51

And that can.

484

: 00:29:52

Be backed by some of our own, fully

bespoke and custom built, web applications

485

: 00:29:58

that our own quoting experience being

one of those examples of where we

486

: 00:30:02

can embed, uh, our own custom CPQ

application directly inside of the

487

: 00:30:07

HubSpot

488

: 00:30:07

app.

489

: 00:30:08

one of the The great things about

this and one of our, I guess,

490

: 00:30:14

overriding philosophies is that

we ask our reps every quarter.

491

: 00:30:20

How do you feel about the

amount of tools you have to use?

492

: 00:30:23

you want to keep reps on the

same pane of glass inside of the

493

: 00:30:26

same app as much as possible.

494

: 00:30:27

You want to have, Unified data

models inside of your CRM.

495

: 00:30:31

So this is one of those things

that we consistently look at is

496

: 00:30:35

how many different applications

are we asking our reps to work in?

497

: 00:30:38

How can we cut that down?

498

: 00:30:39

Is there something else that we can

move natively inside of the HubSpot

499

: 00:30:42

app and that we can have the data,

uh, authoritatively stored for

500

: 00:30:47

directly inside of HubSpot as well?

501

: 00:30:49

because if it is a rep

productivity is improved.

502

: 00:30:51

The amount of context switching they

do is minimized, but also having that

503

: 00:30:57

data, source of truth inside of the

CRM in a nested custom object format

504

: 00:31:03

allows all of our work out of folks

to generate additional, last mile.

505

: 00:31:09

Automation and, customization in, um, kind

of safe and scalable way then as well.

506

: 00:31:16

Justin Norris: Let's dive

into that one a little bit.

507

: 00:31:18

I'm also a big fan of work.

508

: 00:31:20

Um, how do you think about it

from a roles and responsibilities

509

: 00:31:23

point of view within the stack?

510

: 00:31:25

Like when might you use HubSpot's internal

automation capabilities, if at all, versus

511

: 00:31:29

saying this is where we need to layer in

a work order recipe to achieve a goal.

512

: 00:31:33

Rich Archbold: so I think that work

was a great tool for ops teams.

513

: 00:31:38

To use to automate their workflows,

I think when you're doing anything

514

: 00:31:44

that HubSpot customer scale, that's

actually going to scale with the

515

: 00:31:48

amount of customers that we have.

516

: 00:31:50

It's kind of hard to use, uh,

work just from a cost perspective.

517

: 00:31:55

If you're doing something that's

going to be running, you know,

518

: 00:31:58

hundreds of thousands times a day,

growing at scale with our customers.

519

: 00:32:01

And those are the things that, Generally,

we would use more scalable software for.

520

: 00:32:07

I also think you get beyond

the level of complexity.

521

: 00:32:09

Like, Ricardo is great for automating

things, but it's really hard to do.

522

: 00:32:15

Unit testing or integration testing,

there's kind of like a size of complexity

523

: 00:32:19

that once you actually go beyond it, maybe

you want to use some more traditional

524

: 00:32:24

software engineering processes and

best practices for, but I think it's

525

: 00:32:29

a great tool for ops teams to use to.

526

: 00:32:33

Automate their processes and

yeah, if you're operating at a

527

: 00:32:36

smaller scale, I think it's fine.

528

: 00:32:38

I think it's a great integration tool.

529

: 00:32:40

I generally do believe in that.

530

: 00:32:42

citizen automator model Work auto use,

but I just think there's a point of scale

531

: 00:32:47

and complexity where it makes sense, both

from a financial perspective and also from

532

: 00:32:51

a scalability and operational excellence

perspective That you will want to convert

533

: 00:32:57

it into software, but we would often start

with, hey, we have this idea for something

534

: 00:33:02

that we think might be valuable to reps.

535

: 00:33:05

Let's build it as a prototype in workado

and roll it out to a subset of our reps.

536

: 00:33:11

And if it proves valuable, then we can.

537

: 00:33:14

think about scaling it up and turning it

into a fully fledged software solution.

538

: 00:33:18

So it ends up being like a really

valuable prototyping and fast

539

: 00:33:21

paced prototyping tool for us

540

: 00:33:23

Justin Norris: I had a fascinating

conversation with a fellow

541

: 00:33:25

named Niles Fote, from Trey.

542

: 00:33:27

so we're Cotto's competitor, but, using

Trey as part of their go to market.

543

: 00:33:32

And he, uh, has developed a

fairly sophisticated model where

544

: 00:33:36

it kind of all their, lifecycle

processing is happening in Trey.

545

: 00:33:40

So they're doing like the

event capture from the website.

546

: 00:33:43

All of that sort of

enrichment scoring MQL stuff.

547

: 00:33:47

And just, I thought made a compelling

case around why that was more scalable

548

: 00:33:52

and, um, overcame some of the limitations

that you get, like with, you know,

549

: 00:33:56

in Marketo, you're capturing fields

onto the person objects, so it can be

550

: 00:33:59

really hard to manage race conditions

because those events can get overwritten

551

: 00:34:03

before other processing happens.

552

: 00:34:04

There's like a limit,

beyond which you can't go.

553

: 00:34:07

What are your thoughts about that?

554

: 00:34:09

Or maybe just tell us a

bit more how you run that.

555

: 00:34:11

call it operational

backbone of your system.

556

: 00:34:14

Are you doing that in HubSpot

or have you written sort of

557

: 00:34:17

your own software for that?

558

: 00:34:18

How does it work?

559

: 00:34:20

Rich Archbold: so we have a homegrown

bespoke lead pipeline system, given

560

: 00:34:25

the, given the scale that we're at.

561

: 00:34:28

And so we have some custom software

that allows us to capture All of

562

: 00:34:33

those events and send them through

a homegrown enrichment territory

563

: 00:34:39

assignments, and, routing system.

564

: 00:34:41

And so that really is all

homegrown custom software for us.

565

: 00:34:46

And we have various different levels of

operational dashboards, and pay, like,

566

: 00:34:51

a lot of attention to making sure that.

567

: 00:34:54

A lead that enters the system

actually gets routed to, a rep,

568

: 00:34:59

and we pay a lot of attention to

when it actually gets to the rep.

569

: 00:35:03

Did the rep think it was a good lead

or did they end up disqualifying it?

570

: 00:35:09

Because some of the.

571

: 00:35:11

Enrichment data didn't seem like it

was right, or some of the segmentation

572

: 00:35:15

data, or some of the territory data,

or, that's some of the things that we

573

: 00:35:20

thought made it actually a qualified

lead actually weren't a qualified lead.

574

: 00:35:24

And those are some of the metrics

that I paid most attention

575

: 00:35:27

to, to be honest with you.

576

: 00:35:28

I looked to see, did the

process from capturing the lead.

577

: 00:35:35

To qualifying it and getting

it in the hands of the rep.

578

: 00:35:37

What did the rep think?

579

: 00:35:39

Did the rep think it was good or bad?

580

: 00:35:40

And why not?

581

: 00:35:41

And like, are they policy issues

or are they software issues?

582

: 00:35:46

And for the ones that are software

issues, do we make sure that we have

583

: 00:35:50

the right teams thinking about, how to

improve our enrichment systems or how

584

: 00:35:55

to improve our segmentation systems or

how to improve our assignment systems.

585

: 00:36:00

And for ones that are policy

issues, are we making sure that

586

: 00:36:04

we're giving that feedback?

587

: 00:36:06

And that the ops teams are getting all

that feedback, do they feel like they have

588

: 00:36:11

the right configuration tools out there?

589

: 00:36:14

and do they feel they have the

right agency to make changes to

590

: 00:36:18

tweak things that they want, or

are those features, We need to

591

: 00:36:21

build,

592

: 00:36:22

Justin Norris: that makes perfect sense

and you've alluded to data a number of

593

: 00:36:26

times that's also within your purview So

maybe we'll turn to that This is a broad

594

: 00:36:30

question, but how do you think about data

strategy at the scale that you're at?

595

: 00:36:34

Like, what are the sorts of first

level concerns that you're dealing with

596

: 00:36:39

when you think about HubSpot's data?

597

: 00:36:41

Rich Archbold: I

598

: 00:36:41

think it's the most important thing.

599

: 00:36:43

and again, if you said to me, what

are some of those hard fought lessons

600

: 00:36:47

learned that you pick up as you go

from working in infrastructure to

601

: 00:36:51

working in, the go to market world.

602

: 00:36:55

I think as a product person, as

an engineer that builds a products

603

: 00:36:58

for customers to buy, you generally

take data quality for granted and

604

: 00:37:03

you focus on building features.

605

: 00:37:05

you have full control

of all of the databases.

606

: 00:37:07

You've got to pick the

database technology.

607

: 00:37:09

if it's my SQL, you can rely on nice,

clean, simple, my SQL replication,

608

: 00:37:14

or even if you need to stream it into

some other sort of a search, elastic

609

: 00:37:17

search database, there's like nice

clean patterns for doing that, and

610

: 00:37:21

you're all about building features.

611

: 00:37:23

And then when you come into the go to

market world, you realize it's the exact

612

: 00:37:25

opposite You get to buy your features.

613

: 00:37:28

HubSpot is going to give you features.

614

: 00:37:30

Salesforce is going to give you features.

615

: 00:37:31

Marketo is going to give you features.

616

: 00:37:33

You need to build your data.

617

: 00:37:35

you're actually, the more systems you

have, you end up with a heterogeneous

618

: 00:37:41

multi master database replication system

with, no good consistency checking.

619

: 00:37:47

And so you've multiple sources of truth,

data replicating, left, right, and center.

620

: 00:37:52

it's a native integration here,

and then it's a workato integration

621

: 00:37:55

over there, and they're all point

in time integrations, and nobody's

622

: 00:38:00

written a data checking thing.

623

: 00:38:02

there's no, primary keys anywhere,

there's duplicates all over

624

: 00:38:06

the place, and you're going.

625

: 00:38:08

Well, you have a new, B2B SaaS

software rep going to sell you some

626

: 00:38:12

new features to solve your problem,

and so people will sell you features.

627

: 00:38:16

You can buy your features.

628

: 00:38:17

Features are not the problem.

629

: 00:38:19

The problem is the data quality.

630

: 00:38:20

and so that's where I spend, again, and.

631

: 00:38:24

Inordinate amount of my time, thinking

about, how do I make sure people

632

: 00:38:29

understand the hierarchy of needs of data

and that my company object is the single

633

: 00:38:34

most important thing I need to have good

governance and quality over followed

634

: 00:38:38

closely by my contact object as my, as

my 2nd, most important thing and then

635

: 00:38:43

flowing down to deals or opportunities

and then select contracts or.

636

: 00:38:48

Subscriptions to invoices and

understanding that hierarchy of of

637

: 00:38:53

data and making sure that we have.

638

: 00:38:57

Some sort of a governance process on

each, like the, Schema management of

639

: 00:39:03

each of those different core objects

that we have some semblance of what does

640

: 00:39:09

good mean for each of the attributes?

641

: 00:39:12

Inside of these individual objects.

642

: 00:39:14

So, like, how do we uniquely

identify a company or an account?

643

: 00:39:18

And do we have the right semantic

and syntactic safeguards in place

644

: 00:39:23

to make sure that that remains?

645

: 00:39:25

A unique identifier.

646

: 00:39:27

how do we think about company size?

647

: 00:39:29

if we are enriching a company

from 7 different sources, how

648

: 00:39:34

do we think about survivorship

rules around each of these things?

649

: 00:39:37

How do we think about

hiding the mess from reps?

650

: 00:39:40

So that reps only see 1 value rather than

the 7 values, but they have the right

651

: 00:39:45

level of, lineage and discoverability.

652

: 00:39:47

So.

653

: 00:39:48

Even though we're only showing them

one they know why it's only one.

654

: 00:39:52

and so, yeah, I spend a massive amount of

my time thinking about and evangelizing,

655

: 00:39:58

operational data quality inside of

our CRM and making sure that each of

656

: 00:40:02

the different groups and teams are.

657

: 00:40:05

Thinking about it, that we've got

the right schema management strategy,

658

: 00:40:09

that we've got the right data

ingestion strategy, that we've got

659

: 00:40:11

the right data, processing strategy,

that we've got the right safeguards

660

: 00:40:16

along the way, that all of this.

661

: 00:40:19

It's so easy to get caught up in

data quality for data quality's sake.

662

: 00:40:23

And you're like, I do, data quality.

663

: 00:40:25

No, you're here to help the company

bring its go to market strategy to

664

: 00:40:29

life, which means reps doing their jobs.

665

: 00:40:33

That's what you're here to do.

666

: 00:40:34

And one element of it is you

need to keep the data, right.

667

: 00:40:37

So that all of that can happen.

668

: 00:40:39

And so you can get caught

up in a world of like where.

669

: 00:40:43

Data quality, I'm going

to remove some duplicates.

670

: 00:40:45

And you go, well, you could remove

75 percent of the duplicates, but it

671

: 00:40:48

could have zero impact on a reps, work.

672

: 00:40:53

And so you need to be talking

to your reps and talking to your

673

: 00:40:56

RevOps leaders and go, whereabouts

are you feeling your pain points?

674

: 00:40:59

And where do you think, Is your problem,

generating net new business is your

675

: 00:41:05

problem doing cross sell upsell?

676

: 00:41:07

Is your problem doing forecast accuracy?

677

: 00:41:10

is your problem, doing life

cycle marketing because you don't

678

: 00:41:12

have enough product usage data?

679

: 00:41:14

where's your problems?

680

: 00:41:15

I'm here to solve your problems.

681

: 00:41:16

And odds are there's a CRM data

quality challenge in there that

682

: 00:41:22

we're going to need to figure out.

683

: 00:41:23

But yeah, just making sure that.

684

: 00:41:26

Whatever we do is in service

of those, business problems and

685

: 00:41:31

business opportunities rather

than, polishing our data quality

686

: 00:41:36

because you can spend forever.

687

: 00:41:37

You can spend

688

: 00:41:38

all of your

689

: 00:41:38

time

690

: 00:41:39

Justin Norris: And it's never

691

: 00:41:40

Rich Archbold: CRM data

692

: 00:41:40

quality and it's never done.

693

: 00:41:42

and it's never right.

694

: 00:41:43

but we're not here to generate

good data quality we're here

695

: 00:41:47

to, delight our customers and.

696

: 00:41:50

generate leverage for the business

and we focus on those two things

697

: 00:41:54

first and data quality is a means to

698

: 00:41:56

an end.

699

: 00:41:57

Justin Norris: feel like we could do

a whole show just on data because,

700

: 00:42:00

yeah, there's so much in what you

just described, both in terms of

701

: 00:42:03

the current state of things and

mess that we generally all inhabit.

702

: 00:42:08

and accept as normal and the

different things that you can do to

703

: 00:42:11

try to mitigate that just for fun.

704

: 00:42:13

I want to double click on maybe just

one of them to see how you solve for it.

705

: 00:42:17

Tactically you mentioned about like

the data lineage and you might have,

706

: 00:42:20

you know, seven different, data

sources for a particular data point.

707

: 00:42:26

you have some means of, Consolidating

that, displaying only one to the

708

: 00:42:29

rep, but in the background you can

still track what you got and from

709

: 00:42:32

where, like how do you solve that

specific problem, to take an example.

710

: 00:42:37

Rich Archbold: probably maybe the most

applicable way was, how we were solving

711

: 00:42:40

it at Intercom and how we were bringing

in, ring lead, or I think like zoom

712

: 00:42:45

info ops OS, what we were able to do

was plug in multiple enrichment sources

713

: 00:42:49

into ring lead and program some pretty

complex survivorship rules for these

714

: 00:42:55

things that then, ultimately updated

this, single field in Salesforce.

715

: 00:43:00

And we could say, like survivorship

rules of where you have linked in data.

716

: 00:43:05

Um, Always use linkedin data where

you don't have linkedin data if

717

: 00:43:10

you have, let's say zoom info

data and some other data provider.

718

: 00:43:16

And if it's in North America default to,

zoom info, but if it is in Europe default

719

: 00:43:23

to luscia, Data, let's say, like, I don't

think there's any, 1 size fits all here.

720

: 00:43:29

The different data providers will

have different strengths in different

721

: 00:43:33

regions and different segments.

722

: 00:43:36

I think that the key thing is,

you've got to keep talking to your

723

: 00:43:39

reps and getting feedback from reps

on what's actually working well for

724

: 00:43:43

them and what's not working for them.

725

: 00:43:46

I think that, the secret for me, or the

key is that you're, rarely ever going

726

: 00:43:52

to have somebody articulate to you.

727

: 00:43:55

Hey, your priority zero

problem is CRM data quality.

728

: 00:43:58

You need to go and, I'm going to

allow you down tools and not integrate

729

: 00:44:02

any new software for me or not build

any new workflows for me and just

730

: 00:44:06

go spend 80 percent of your time

cleaning up the data inside of our CRM.

731

: 00:44:11

that's pretty much never going to happen.

732

: 00:44:13

And.

733

: 00:44:13

Okay.

734

: 00:44:14

If you don't know any better, or

if you haven't done up the battle

735

: 00:44:17

scars, it's very easy to listen

to your internal stakeholders.

736

: 00:44:20

And they'll say, I want this tool.

737

: 00:44:21

I want this workflow.

738

: 00:44:23

I want you to launch this product.

739

: 00:44:25

I want this new enablement source

and you end up spending 120 percent

740

: 00:44:29

of your time, adding new to the

system and adding new complexity.

741

: 00:44:36

Quickly, as you can, and that's

the path to getting out of control.

742

: 00:44:40

And I think that the real secret to us

is having the conviction to know that,

743

: 00:44:48

this is where you're going to go wrong.

744

: 00:44:49

You're going to go wrong.

745

: 00:44:50

If you're not constantly gardening

and gatekeeping, uh, some of the data

746

: 00:44:54

inside of the CRM that you aren't, um.

747

: 00:44:57

Preaching this to your team that you

aren't putting those guardrail metrics in

748

: 00:45:04

place that allows you to get a sense of.

749

: 00:45:07

this is kind of how good or bad it is that

you're continuously talking to reps and

750

: 00:45:13

that you're listening out for these type

of keywords, that were, and you're able to

751

: 00:45:18

tie it back to, I'm hearing data quality,

but it's actually a prospecting thing.

752

: 00:45:22

I can now go sell it to the business

and go, Hey, here's how we can improve

753

: 00:45:25

prospecting, or here's how we can

move the numbers you care about.

754

: 00:45:29

it's by investing In this thing, and I

think as engineering leaders, it's up

755

: 00:45:33

to us to champion that and to have that

mindset and to not, unknowingly, walk

756

: 00:45:39

ourselves into a corner of not necessarily

technical debt, but Data debt, I think,

757

: 00:45:45

again, if you're building products for

external customers, you're all about

758

: 00:45:49

the technical data and know that like

software isn't being properly reused.

759

: 00:45:53

And we need to take the time to

refactor this software so that

760

: 00:45:57

we're carrying less software.

761

: 00:45:59

I think the same is true

in the go to market world.

762

: 00:46:01

It's in the data space.

763

: 00:46:02

It's like, are we taking the time to

refactor our, data, eliminate data

764

: 00:46:08

that's now duplicate or unnecessary.

765

: 00:46:11

And for me, difference between

building product and building go

766

: 00:46:14

to market is just a role reversal.

767

: 00:46:16

One, you build products, the

other is that you build data so,

768

: 00:46:19

that you can buy your features.

769

: 00:46:21

Justin Norris: And maybe the last

question we have time for, but you've

770

: 00:46:25

mentioned a few times about, this

push and pull with your stakeholders,

771

: 00:46:29

identifying what work you need to do.

772

: 00:46:32

figuring out your priorities.

773

: 00:46:34

I think this is perhaps the most

challenging and an important job, you

774

: 00:46:38

know, for any leader in the space.

775

: 00:46:39

Cause if you make the wrong

decisions, all the other work

776

: 00:46:42

downstream, loses its impact.

777

: 00:46:46

How do you think about that problem?

778

: 00:46:48

how do you manage it?

779

: 00:46:49

Rich Archbold: I think you're right.

780

: 00:46:50

I think it is one of the hardest things.

781

: 00:46:52

so at HubSpot, we have an excellent annual

planning process that happens each year,

782

: 00:46:57

which, that's where we kind of set out

a lot of our, uh, Big rock goals, and we

783

: 00:47:03

try and make sure we're generally hyper

aligned with our business stakeholders

784

: 00:47:08

on what are the biggest strategic needle

moving projects that we need to do.

785

: 00:47:13

And we make sure that we set

aside capacity for those things.

786

: 00:47:18

But we also know the business is,

agile, the world changes around

787

: 00:47:21

us, and we need to be nimble

and responsive to those changes.

788

: 00:47:26

the first port of call for being

able to be nimble and agile to those

789

: 00:47:30

changes is those, technical BSAs

that we have embedded inside of rev

790

: 00:47:35

ops, who we're continuously trying to

build features and capabilities that.

791

: 00:47:41

they can tweak and respond to.

792

: 00:47:44

We also have work that enables us

to, deliver some amount of agile

793

: 00:47:48

automation, in that manner as well.

794

: 00:47:50

And then we have our.

795

: 00:47:53

Various different interlock meetings,

our sales interlock, our support

796

: 00:47:57

partner interlock where we have

an ongoing intake process where,

797

: 00:48:01

people could submit new requests.

798

: 00:48:03

And we review those interlock

meetings are happening on a

799

: 00:48:07

bi weekly basis at the moment.

800

: 00:48:09

I'd love to say they're frictionless,

but they're not, sometimes we will

801

: 00:48:13

discover dependencies that we didn't

realize we had, or dependencies that

802

: 00:48:17

were maybe bigger than we thought.

803

: 00:48:18

Um, we need to adapt to them.

804

: 00:48:21

it's, definitely not always perfect,

but, some of the really interesting

805

: 00:48:27

things are, What do you do when sales

ops wants to do one thing, but your

806

: 00:48:32

reps want to do something else or maybe

the priorities aren't quite aligned

807

: 00:48:37

where the reps will obviously be the

ones to see the paper cuts and the

808

: 00:48:41

friction with the existing processes.

809

: 00:48:44

They all like.

810

: 00:48:45

See and feel them every single day,

every single deal they work, whereas

811

: 00:48:50

the, sales ops or rev ops folks

might be 1 step removed from that.

812

: 00:48:54

And they're, more hyper focused on the

bigger swing, strategy plays or supporting

813

: 00:49:00

some of the new product launches or

supporting maybe a bigger Segmentation

814

: 00:49:04

change or something like that.

815

: 00:49:05

And that's actually where it

gets really interesting for me,

816

: 00:49:08

where your first desire is, I

want to make those reps happier.

817

: 00:49:13

I want to fix those paper cuts for

those reps, but maybe it's the same

818

: 00:49:15

group of people that would be working

on executing the larger strategic

819

: 00:49:22

project, those are the really tough ones.

820

: 00:49:24

the philosophy I preach is to try

and set aside, no more than 70

821

: 00:49:28

percent of your capacity for your,

Big rock strategic goals and leave

822

: 00:49:33

30 percent of your capacity, free to

respond throughout the year and to.

823

: 00:49:39

Address those paper cuts.

824

: 00:49:41

And then my other tip, is, the more

closely you can connect your engineering

825

: 00:49:45

teams and your systems teams to the reps,

the more rep shadowing you do, the more

826

: 00:49:50

empathy you can build with those reps.

827

: 00:49:53

The teams will just find a way to

go, Oh yeah, we know these people.

828

: 00:49:57

We're talking to them a lot.

829

: 00:49:58

We know they're feeling this pain.

830

: 00:50:00

We'll find something that we'll find

a way to address some element of it.

831

: 00:50:04

Just so it's not a sharp, but if

you say we're primarily here to

832

: 00:50:07

execute the strategy, but we measure

the rep friction and we really

833

: 00:50:10

care about rep friction as well.

834

: 00:50:12

and you set aside some capacity for it

and you get, The engineers and the PMs

835

: 00:50:17

and the designers meeting regularly with

the reps, everything just gets easier.

836

: 00:50:21

That's the secret, the closer you get

to reps, the more rep shadowing you

837

: 00:50:24

can do without actually getting in the

way, the more empathy you can develop,

838

: 00:50:28

for them, the more you can help see

around corners and fix things before

839

: 00:50:34

they break or fix things before you're

840

: 00:50:36

even

841

: 00:50:36

asked

842

: 00:50:36

to.

843

: 00:50:37

Justin Norris: It's knowing

your customer, you know, right?

844

: 00:50:39

Rich Archbold: 100%,

845

: 00:50:41

Justin Norris: closer you are to

your customer, more empathy you

846

: 00:50:42

have, the more you'll intuitively

be drawn to fix those problems.

847

: 00:50:47

Rich, this was so, so interesting.

848

: 00:50:48

Uh, could have probably

booked a three hour session.

849

: 00:50:51

We'd still have more to cover, but really

grateful for you joining us today and

850

: 00:50:56

just being generous, sharing all your

insights and what you folks are doing.

851

: 00:51:00

I think it's fascinating.

852

: 00:51:00

So thank you so much.

853

: 00:51:02

Rich Archbold: Thank you for having me.