The GTM Systems Product Manager - Josh Hill

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

If I had to name the single biggest challenge for ops teams,

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it would have to be prioritization.

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We all have limited resources and we all

have way more requests than we can ever

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handle, even if we worked a 24 hour day.

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So how do you deal with this problem?

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If you say yes to everything, you pretty

quickly become a service department.

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You have no strategic input.

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You just do what you're

told and life gets.

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Kind of miserable.

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At the same time, if you just set your

own priorities and you don't have enough

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input from the business, you can quickly

find yourself irrelevant and you can

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potentially find yourself out of a job.

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So there's a conflict here

that needs to be resolved.

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And the best model that I've seen

for tackling this problem is what

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some people would call the product

management approach to managing

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MarTech or to managing your ops team.

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And this is where you effectively

treat your stack as an internal

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product and ops as a product

management team working on delivering.

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Features for internal customers today.

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We're joined by a marketing ops legend,

Josh Hill, who has put this into

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practice in an enterprise setting.

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And he's going to tell us about how you

implement this approach, what it means for

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prioritization, how you build the right

team to support it and a whole lot more,

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Josh, it's awesome to have you here today.

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Josh Hill: I'm glad to be here.

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Just it's a really interesting early

topic for marketing operations pros.

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And I think I'm still exploring it.

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So I appreciate that.

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You think I'm an expert at it.

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Justin Norris: I want to start with a

quick overview of your journey and before

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I throw that to you to give that to us, I

just want to give credit where credit is

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due and acknowledge kind of a big impact.

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I think that you've had on my

career, like in the very early days

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of marketing automation and the

nascent era of marketing operations.

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You were, I think, one of the first

people to recognize the opportunity

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of this discipline and establishing.

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Yourself as a thought leader, as an

expert with your early blog marketing

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rockstar guides and in particular just

diving into the Marketo community,

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when and it had a leaderboard.

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I think yours was the face at the

top of that leaderboard every day.

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You could see the investment you were

putting into just almost becoming.

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like the representation of that

community and it motivated me to dive

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in and to, reply more and to build

up my professional identity there.

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So, maybe you can talk a little bit or

touch on, what led you to do that, but I

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would just love to understand how you got

into this field and what you've done.

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Josh Hill: A lot of people say

something similar, and I'm glad that

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I had an impact on you and others with

answering lots and lots of questions.

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I think that helped me think through

the problems I was facing as well.

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Dive into the technology and how it could

actually be used to build experiences.

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How did I get into this?

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Well, you know, today, right?

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I build scalable GTM platforms and I

support the full customer lifecycle

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working with product marketing and sales.

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But that's not how it started, right?

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I was actually in sales working on.

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Selling information products,

which I thought about frequently.

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And then I moved into demand gen and I ran

events and ads and all sorts of things.

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And because I was process oriented

and technical, I took on this

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implementation of Marketo, right?

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I chose Marketo and went in pretty

deep and then became a consultant as

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you know, and answered lots and lots

of questions and took on larger and

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larger projects to the point where.

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I was working on RingCentral's team,

designing systems and teams to support

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their scale up from 300 million to 2

billion in revenue, working on next

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generation omnichannel capabilities,

radical improvements to speed to

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lead, and campaign operations um,

and a lot more, but I was able to

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do that because I built up a team.

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That work, I'm working on little

projects at a time, answering questions

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people had on the community and kind of

thinking through, well, how would I solve

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that and realizing that many respects

a lot of these marketing automation

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platforms and even Salesforce is a

workflow tool and you can make it do.

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Just about anything you want.

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So knowing what it is you

want to do, building that as a

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product, right, is important.

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You know, having an actual curiosity about

these things is also important as well.

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Justin Norris: Do you remember

like when you had this recognition

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that this was a field that you

could build a career around?

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Cause it seemed to me

in the beginning that.

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you had a lot of like demand gen people

buying Marketo and figuring out how to

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use it and kind of being like amateurs.

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And I don't mean that in a negative way,

but they were not Martech professionals.

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They were people in an adjacent

discipline who are using this

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tool to do a particular job.

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And you again, in my mind, were the first

person who was like, wait a second, like

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No, this is a professional discipline.

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I can establish myself in this

way and treat it that way.

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Where did that recognition

come from for you?

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Or, where did that light bulb go off?

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Josh Hill: Yeah, I would say it

was A couple months after my first

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implementation, and it was a funny, I

have a funny story about that, which I

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actually don't share very often is I was

doing the project I was maybe, it was

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live, maybe a couple weeks into seeing

auto responders go out right we never

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had auto responders and I can manage them

and it was saving a huge amount of time.

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And I was seeing that other

people were getting traditional

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marketing projects that I wasn't.

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And I said, well, gee, you know, I

feel like maybe I'm in a backwater

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now, like I got sidelined because

I was working on this technology.

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And I feel like, oh, now I'm in

this marketing operations backwater.

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And that seems weird to say now, right?

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no one had coined marketing

operations, or at least I hadn't

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come across it at the time.

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And after a couple of months departing

the company, I was like, huh.

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You know, I really like doing that, right?

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Maybe I should make that my job, right?

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And I've seen more and more jobs

kind of coming up about, like, people

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needing DemandGen and Marketo because

a lot of those, like you said, people

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were, DemandGen was buying Marketo, it

was buying Eloqua, and There were no

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professional marketing operations folks,

at least for most of the B2B companies.

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And because I had that technology

experience in my past, like where I

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was a tech support, I ran sysadmin for

Linux boxes and all sorts of things.

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I like that and I'm like, Oh,

I can take that approach and

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apply it to this technology.

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So it's.

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more secure, more managed effectively.

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What we might call marketing

operations, DevOps, or something like

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that today and put some discipline

around it because no one else has that

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kind of unique set of experiences.

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Turned out some people

did, which is great.

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But that's how it took

it to the next level.

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but I want people to make

sure they understand, like.

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IT style management of these

technologies is important.

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I think you should master that.

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But that's not the same

as product management.

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Justin Norris: And so

that's where we want to go.

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And just before we do, you touched a

little bit on the sort of scope and

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scale of some of the teams that you led.

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And I have a little bit of an inside.

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View here is we actually collaborated

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with myself as a consultant.

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you were my client.

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So I had a bit of a window

into what you were doing.

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and it was a big operation that you

ran, particularly at ring central,

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which is where we work together.

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A big team, lots of

people, lots of complexity.

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it was huge.

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Can you just give a sense of like

the operation that you had there?

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Josh Hill: So my team grew into more

than 30 people around the world, four

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or five teams, depending on the quarter

we were talking about where I did

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follow, you know, Aidan Thanks approach

sort of naturally, but I became a

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little more aware of it later, right?

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And architecture system analysts.

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Not really programmers per se, but

people who knew enough to do low to

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mid code kind of integration work and

would ask the important questions about

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scale and ensure that there was a lot

of cross functional and cross system.

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Work they would do things like BRDs.

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I mean everybody could but that's that

was more of their focus There was demand

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gen systems and campaigns there's a

front end development team and it was

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important to separate those because

At least at RingCentral, the motion

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and the systems are very different

for customers versus prospectors.

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How the campaigns were

thought of were different.

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So you really had to understand each

technology, each kind of data flow that

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was going on, and they were different.

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and that was only half of the

marketing operations team.

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We had marketing data, we had

DevOps, and that had a whole

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other set of things going on.

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We had project management and production

management, which was also very important.

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And, people talk about those things

as pillars, but I actually got the

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chance to practice it in real life

and build those things with the team

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to support a large scale system.

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And that led me to thinking about, how

do you do this at a very large scale?

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you know, you were the person

introduced us to a lot of other

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tools as well, so thank you for that.

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Justin Norris: Oh glad to have done it.

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So thinking then about this product

management approach, maybe just

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a definition, like how do you

definitionally think about it?

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what does it mean?

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And was it something that you applied?

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Back then, or is it something kind

of just retrospectively looking back?

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You're like this is the way that I would

do it if I was to build That work again.

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Josh Hill: I did.

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And I did.

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Right.

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You know, when I think about products,

you know, I've been working with software

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building software or ecosystems for a

long time, and I would always think about,

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okay, well, how does this product work?

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How is it thinking about the world?

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And every product does have a point

of view, forget who talked about it.

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Maybe it was Scott Brinker.

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And, Marketo had a point of view

about how you handle B2B lead

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management, And how much of that

influences your choice as a process.

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But getting back to your question, right?

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I love thinking about how customer

service, how sales, how features,

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how other things work to integrate

into a product experience.

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I wanted to be a product

manager at one point.

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And, you know, on an amateur

level, as you put it, right?

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Like, I think about these

things daily, right?

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I would talk with Marketo.

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I think the product should

work this way, right?

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It's not solving my actual problem.

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How do I solve my actual

problem in the hope that they

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would put that on the roadmap?

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And sometimes they did, And what's

interesting is that when I started

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diving into understanding what a

product manager does, as it's defined,

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you know, in the software world,

pMs think about the same things

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that marketing ops pros think about.

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They're at this intersection of

business, customer experience approval

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processes, feature development,

BRDs, product requirement documents.

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So it's all of these things.

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The only other discipline that really

works on that is marketing operations

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or rev ops, or even to some degree

sales operations where all of these

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threads come together to build something

So with marketing operations, we're

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building typically products around like

an event experience or a lead flow.

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Experience or internal sales

product experience, right?

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So it can be a little bit different

because it's more internal typically,

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but we're always thinking about the

outside world and asking marketers.

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Hey, are you sure you want that form

that way and building frameworks to help?

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Get those requirements and those

experiences built, And this really didn't

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come up as a crystallized thought until

a VP brought it up from a very large

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organization, like super large and comes

by and he says, I want to bring in a

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product manager for marketing technology.

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We need strategy and.

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That was a little surprising

because I thought we had strategy.

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But it did get me thinking about,

okay, well, why is he saying this?

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Right?

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What is a product management

approach doing that's

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different than what I'm doing?

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there are some differences, but

there are a lot of similarities.

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So over the last couple of years,

I've been researching that and kind of

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understanding, how are they different?

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How are they not?

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Do they just talk differently?

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But it's doing the same thing?

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And largely, yes.

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If you ask ChatGPT or the internet, you

know, what does a product manager do?

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It's going to give you something

mild, like, well, it's responsible

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for developing and managing products.

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Okay.

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Marketing operations focuses on

executing marketing strategies and

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optimizing marketing processes.

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not very helpful, and it's kind

of incomplete, but it's also true.

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in many ways.

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It's a messaging question.

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So when I think about marketing

operations, we're often at the bleeding

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edge of a business of marketing,

making an experience come to life for

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a marketer for a customer, Whether it's

in campaign operations or architecture,

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you're kind of trying to figure out

How does the rubber meet the road?

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And guess what?

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Product managers do the same

thing, but they don't talk

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about it exactly the same way.

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Justin Norris: So is it about in

some cases just adopting a product

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management lexicon, like instead of

saying like, Hey, I have a request,

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say, all right, well, this is a feature

and I'm going to put it in my roadmap

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and we'll develop it in sprints.

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And, you know, just adopting

that terminology, or is there

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something more fundamental?

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At the root of how you think about

what you're doing that comes with

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the product management approach.

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Josh Hill: You can do that.

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I suspect a lot of us

already are doing that.

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So what does a PM do, right?

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it's probably familiar to people who

are particularly marketing technology

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architects or more experienced pros

You're aligning experiences to the

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mission or the customer experience

you're enforcing product boundaries

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or against a strategy Are we going

to do something or not do something?

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Right?

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How do we treat?

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Our customers, whether it's

internally or externally.

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And sometimes you have to think about

both in marketing operations, right?

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I'm building a privacy product to capture

opt ins and help speak in compliance.

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How does that whole end to end

process work from the branded page and

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interaction that an actual customer or

non customer has down to how do we use it?

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Inside our internal systems, you know,

how do we get all the approvals for that?

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And we build products with customers

with engineers, We manage all the

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stakeholders involved from, you know, vps

your day to day stakeholders Whoever's

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asking for a feature, Someone comes

to me and says hey, I want To send

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gifts to our prospects or our customers

for some reason Yeah, we can bring in

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a vendor do that, but that workflow

that goes around it, that's a product,

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How we use that vendor is a product.

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And like you said, we do

build features, right?

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And that ideally is managed through a

process with business requirements doc, or

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if you're going to be a product manager,

it's a product requirement doc, They're

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not different, They all have user stories.

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They have jobs to be done.

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And some of us have borrowed from

Agile and product management.

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Terminology to in our data to pay work.

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So you're probably already doing that.

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And I think it's really

important to do that.

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If you're going to do an RFP, if you're

creating a new workflow, which a workflow

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can be a product, you know, if you're

delivering specifications to engineers.

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You're creating wireframes

and experience workloads.

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You're doing UX and creative

on your team, right?

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I have a front end development team.

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What did we talk about a lot?

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The user experience, We had to build

wireframes for certain situations.

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You know, how do we create capabilities

for a marketer or for our customers

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or our users to do something, Did we

get the requirements right for that?

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Did we build a minimum viable product,

which a lot of us use that terminology?

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We do testing, UAT, launch

decision points, feedback loops.

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So you're already doing all these things.

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Now, there is a difference though.

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Product managers, marketing operations

folks, we are interdisciplinary.

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We're at this intersection of business,

marketing, demand gen, sales, user

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experience, UI, front end development.

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We have to know the back end

pretty well or back end enough.

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maybe we know some SQL and some

Python, DNS, and email marketing.

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And that all goes into being

a product manager, right?

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Understanding the customer life cycle.

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Now where I'd say there are some

differences, not just in terminology,

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is Product managers sometimes say

that they're the CEO of a product.

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Sometimes they don't like

that, and that's a debate.

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But they are closer to

understanding the business impact.

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They're trying to build a business,

And they'll have core metrics, like

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a North Star metric or aha moments.

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And they're going to leverage product

data and telemetry and build that in.

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And understand how people interact

with the product and whether that

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feature is working delivering

whatever it is they want, Like more

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and more usage typically, right?

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Slack users inviting more

people from their organization

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or outside their organization?

310

: 00:16:26

Marketing Ops doesn't

really do that typically.

311

: 00:16:29

Now you might, if you're saying

like implementing You know,

312

: 00:16:32

sales automation platform, right?

313

: 00:16:33

Do people send out emails from it?

314

: 00:16:35

Are they adopting it?

315

: 00:16:36

And I've used that to help

manage the martech stack, right?

316

: 00:16:40

If someone's not adopting a product

or something I built, maybe we

317

: 00:16:44

should just continue it or change it.

318

: 00:16:47

But we don't typically

think of it in that way.

319

: 00:16:48

And that, to me, that's

the real difference.

320

: 00:16:50

The monetization is the real

difference between the two functions.

321

: 00:16:54

Justin Norris: Well, you just said

to me, it goes to the heart of

322

: 00:16:56

the matter in terms of the role,

the function, the orientation

323

: 00:17:02

that marketing ops should have.

324

: 00:17:04

And I agree with you that we

typically don't do it as a discipline.

325

: 00:17:09

Quite often we're getting these requests.

326

: 00:17:12

And even when we're delivering

them we're thinking about.

327

: 00:17:14

what's the best way to

deliver this architecturally?

328

: 00:17:17

Is it going to be robust?

329

: 00:17:18

Is it going to be scalable?

330

: 00:17:20

What role do you think

marketing ops should have?

331

: 00:17:22

This is the big question for me in

assessing the potential impact of that

332

: 00:17:28

request, like, Hey, I know you want to.

333

: 00:17:30

do chat bots that, you know, send AI

enabled text messages and, gift baskets

334

: 00:17:37

whenever somebody does X, Y, Z, but

like, is this going to be a good idea?

335

: 00:17:41

Is this going to be revenue impacting?

336

: 00:17:42

In other words, should.

337

: 00:17:44

Marketing ops, take some of that product

oriented mindset of like really looking at

338

: 00:17:48

the revenue impact of what they're working

on and push back more against other teams.

339

: 00:17:53

Josh Hill: so when we think about

pushing back It can be done in

340

: 00:17:56

different ways in different situations.

341

: 00:17:58

I would think more about that in first

thought, which is the ROI or the impact

342

: 00:18:03

of the product you're going to build,

so we're whether someone's asking you

343

: 00:18:07

to build something or has a good idea

or an idea about something, right?

344

: 00:18:12

The first thing I want to do is

understand that business requirement

345

: 00:18:15

and Understand the complete workflow

and experience they're trying to give

346

: 00:18:19

either the internal person or the

internal person and the customer,

347

: 00:18:23

whether the customers pay it or not.

348

: 00:18:25

And elicit that out and get it into

workflow or wireframe, something that we

349

: 00:18:31

can kind of be more tangible and reactive

then understand, okay, well, if we did

350

: 00:18:36

these things, what's The goal here, right?

351

: 00:18:38

Do we want someone to fill out a form?

352

: 00:18:40

Okay.

353

: 00:18:41

What does that mean for us?

354

: 00:18:42

Exactly.

355

: 00:18:42

They're going to register for an event.

356

: 00:18:44

And that's, you know, an

obvious pipeline generation.

357

: 00:18:47

Is it going to reduce costs

greatly because we automated

358

: 00:18:50

something for us or our customers?

359

: 00:18:53

Are we going to enable growth that

could not be done before, like with

360

: 00:18:57

a click to calendar solution, right?

361

: 00:18:59

Where supposedly will reduce

friction in the meeting process.

362

: 00:19:03

Increase our number of meetings that

we get per day, and therefore that

363

: 00:19:06

should be to an expected revenue.

364

: 00:19:08

That's a lot higher, And that's the

kind of question you need to really ask,

365

: 00:19:12

especially when you're prioritizing work

is I need an ROI metric in order to have

366

: 00:19:17

a conversation and to show you where this

project is going to live in the queue.

367

: 00:19:22

I always love working on win back products

because there was a clear connection

368

: 00:19:26

between what I did and the revenue.

369

: 00:19:28

If you're going to create a chatbot,

which is another one of my favorites

370

: 00:19:31

is that typically doesn't have a

connection between building the

371

: 00:19:34

product and delivering revenue because

you're getting someone to sales or

372

: 00:19:37

getting someone to customer service.

373

: 00:19:39

And increase an MPS score or getting an

upsell opportunity, whatever that is.

374

: 00:19:43

And I built those products, And in many

ways, it was managed like a product,

375

: 00:19:47

even if we didn't talk about it that way.

376

: 00:19:50

But there are other things like, oh,

you know, building a CDP or, you know,

377

: 00:19:54

we're going to create a process that's

going to reduce costs or something.

378

: 00:19:57

You have to really think

through the implication of that

379

: 00:20:00

build to the business, right?

380

: 00:20:03

So theoretically, a CDP could create

some self service opportunities,

381

: 00:20:07

although that I think is overblown.

382

: 00:20:10

It could unify enough of our data

and identifiers to better personalize

383

: 00:20:15

the product experience or the

website so that Theoretically, at

384

: 00:20:19

least that will increase the number

of conversions through the funnel.

385

: 00:20:23

And that has an impact on revenue.

386

: 00:20:24

So you can definitely tie it back,

but you need to think through that.

387

: 00:20:27

And like you said, that hasn't

always been an obvious thing

388

: 00:20:31

for marketing operations to do.

389

: 00:20:33

But as I talked about in a couple of

presentations, I did on building a

390

: 00:20:36

business case, you do have to do that.

391

: 00:20:39

And that's where the pushback happens is

you have to ensure that your stakeholders

392

: 00:20:44

are helping you build that business case.

393

: 00:20:45

typically Moss is not the business

owner, We might be the technical

394

: 00:20:49

owner, but if you don't have a

business partner who is on the hook for

395

: 00:20:53

delivering dollars from something you

build, then you're just building stuff.

396

: 00:20:58

Maybe it gets used.

397

: 00:20:59

Maybe it works.

398

: 00:20:59

Maybe it doesn't.

399

: 00:21:00

You should never have tools

that don't have a business owner

400

: 00:21:03

Justin Norris: And

401

: 00:21:03

about that relationship between, mops

and the teams we support in my little

402

: 00:21:09

intro I kind of presented a straw man

vision of, you know, a few different ways

403

: 00:21:13

that relationship could be structured.

404

: 00:21:15

They were based on reality though.

405

: 00:21:17

I think a lot of the teams.

406

: 00:21:18

Do find themselves in a position

where they're getting handed a

407

: 00:21:21

list of priorities and like, here's

the things we need you to do.

408

: 00:21:23

Here's the tools we want you to implement.

409

: 00:21:25

that's not a great place to be, not

just for ops, but it's not good for

410

: 00:21:28

the business because there isn't any of

that pushback and I think on the flip

411

: 00:21:32

side, and I've seen this more in an

enterprise setting, maybe you have two

412

: 00:21:35

where you have a team that's built such

a huge kind of a moat around themselves.

413

: 00:21:42

But everything is just like, no, or,

Oh, it'll be on the roadmap in a year.

414

: 00:21:47

And they just seem completely

unresponsive to needs of the business.

415

: 00:21:51

I think I, I've seen this probably

more with CRM teams than with

416

: 00:21:54

marketing ops teams, but sorry to

417

: 00:21:55

say that CRM teams and at that point

you end up with like shadow it or

418

: 00:21:59

people hiring their own, external

consultants ,how do you think about

419

: 00:22:03

the types of approaches that are out

there and how to move from one polarity

420

: 00:22:08

or the other towards this, what I would

think of as a more balanced approach,

421

: 00:22:12

you know, where it's more of a true

partnership delivering on business

422

: 00:22:15

outcomes versus a power struggle.

423

: 00:22:18

Josh Hill: Well, ideally,

that's, the leadership.

424

: 00:22:21

Saying the right thing, And I've seen

this too, in many organizations, right?

425

: 00:22:25

Where you get the hippo or what I call the

VP stomp, where you got to do something.

426

: 00:22:32

no explanation, no discussion, no, review

of, best options to achieve that goal.

427

: 00:22:38

Maybe not even a discussion of what

that goal really is, in some case.

428

: 00:22:43

there was someone who posted Something

with that thought the other day on

429

: 00:22:45

LinkedIn where they were very much like,

Mops is the saying no to me and they were

430

: 00:22:49

very upset about this And I really wanted

to push back on that person because I it

431

: 00:22:54

felt like every conversation with someone

who hasn't taken the time to explain what

432

: 00:23:00

they want to achieve It's like, I didn't

say no, I'm thinking about your problem.

433

: 00:23:04

And that often gets interpreted

as no, because I didn't do

434

: 00:23:07

it in the last five minutes.

435

: 00:23:10

these things don't happen

in five minutes, usually.

436

: 00:23:13

Or even 30 minutes, and it really depends

what it is you're trying to achieve.

437

: 00:23:17

And that's what, you know, I built

the journey doc process for the

438

: 00:23:19

business requirements doc process.

439

: 00:23:21

It feels slow to people

who just want it now.

440

: 00:23:25

And the reason that process exists is

to ensure we're actually delivering

441

: 00:23:29

what you want and what you really want

and understanding that so that we don't

442

: 00:23:33

show up with a product or a hack that

actually didn't deliver anything because

443

: 00:23:38

that has definitely happened before,

or everyone misunderstands each other.

444

: 00:23:42

It's a way to.

445

: 00:23:43

Avoid misunderstandings and any product

manager will have the same problem, Where

446

: 00:23:48

they get ideas from customers, or they're

trying to solve a customer problem.

447

: 00:23:51

They build a purity and they're trying

to explain it to the engineers who

448

: 00:23:58

are already working on their road

map, or they have their own ideas.

449

: 00:24:00

And that's fine, or they might have

a better way of solving it, but is it

450

: 00:24:05

actually solving the customer problem?

451

: 00:24:07

Or is it how they think

about the customer problem?

452

: 00:24:10

And then you get conflicts

in the prioritization.

453

: 00:24:12

And that's really what, one of the

things I actually kind of learned very

454

: 00:24:15

clearly from product management interview

videos is you always have to connect

455

: 00:24:21

back what you're doing to the strategy

of the company and the product, you

456

: 00:24:25

know, it feels a little business Casey.

457

: 00:24:28

Which is fine, but it

makes a good point, right?

458

: 00:24:30

Like, if we're loading a product at,

let's just say, Emails 10 million people

459

: 00:24:36

a day to try to get them to respond.

460

: 00:24:39

But our whole strategy and customer

branding is about being nice

461

: 00:24:44

to people and treating people

well, for whatever reason, right?

462

: 00:24:47

I'm just kind of making

up a business strategy.

463

: 00:24:50

And we have that branding, but we

don't treat people that way, right?

464

: 00:24:53

We're going to have a big

mismatch in how people.

465

: 00:24:57

Perceive us, and we're probably

going to hurt our brand and product

466

: 00:25:01

manager, marketing ops professional

with some experience is going to

467

: 00:25:06

often say like, Hey, this doesn't

feel brand aligned, Are you sure

468

: 00:25:09

you want to treat people this way?

469

: 00:25:11

Are you sure that image you're

giving us is not brand aligned?

470

: 00:25:15

Because we see everything that comes

through the queue, and we're going

471

: 00:25:17

to push it back to creative or ask

you to get a different approval.

472

: 00:25:21

And those processes exist to protect

us in the company from making it.

473

: 00:25:25

A big mistake.

474

: 00:25:27

But, we could build anything you want.

475

: 00:25:28

It's just, is that really the best

thing to do for us for the customer?

476

: 00:25:33

when I think about product management,

when I think about the CRM team, when

477

: 00:25:37

I think about marketing ops does the

CRM team, the enterprise applications

478

: 00:25:42

teams They get into difficult situations

because if they pull out the Jenga

479

: 00:25:45

piece, it can break critical processes.

480

: 00:25:48

And especially if you're a public company,

you have SOX compliance, you have impact

481

: 00:25:54

to street numbers, you cannot do that,

You do not break things like that.

482

: 00:25:59

I mean, I've seen people ask for a

field where, for whatever reason,

483

: 00:26:04

the CRM team just does it and 10,

000 ops get deleted or get closed

484

: 00:26:09

out without proper procedures.

485

: 00:26:10

And then everything blows up in

the emergency slack channels.

486

: 00:26:14

And I'm not saying that happened

to any particular company, but

487

: 00:26:16

I've seen and heard things, right?

488

: 00:26:18

Well, that's because a process got

bypassed, So when I built an SMS product,

489

: 00:26:24

and my architect did the hard work,

so I give her credit for that one.

490

: 00:26:28

We designed everything out.

491

: 00:26:29

How do we treat people?

492

: 00:26:30

When should this happen in the process?

493

: 00:26:32

How do we do an MVP so we don't just

spam everybody who could get an SMS?

494

: 00:26:37

How do we even know if this

person has a cell phone, if

495

: 00:26:40

this is a cell phone number?

496

: 00:26:41

Did we run this by the privacy

team who actually had a lot

497

: 00:26:45

of good advice about that?

498

: 00:26:47

And then we could launch it and test it.

499

: 00:26:48

And, oh, by the way, we came up against

regulatory issues and maybe we can't

500

: 00:26:54

do the SMS product for a while because

we have to get certain other approvals.

501

: 00:26:58

Right.

502

: 00:26:58

And the environment changed product

teams, product managers come against

503

: 00:27:01

the same problem all the time.

504

: 00:27:03

So I don't like it when people say,

Oh, that team is saying no, it's

505

: 00:27:08

they're trying to protect themselves

because they got burned or the

506

: 00:27:11

company is going to get burned.

507

: 00:27:12

So it's up to escalation process to

prioritization should be and try to,

508

: 00:27:19

as some people would say, breakthrough.

509

: 00:27:21

But I would say it's more about.

510

: 00:27:23

If you need to escalate something,

to me that tells us that there are

511

: 00:27:27

conflicting priorities, again, across

the silos, but they're also not a clear

512

: 00:27:31

understanding of the strategy that

could help us build a rubric or an ROI

513

: 00:27:36

metric around should we be doing this

514

: 00:27:38

Justin Norris: when you think about

that difficult conversation that you're

515

: 00:27:40

describing, you know, the stakeholder

that feels you're saying no, you're trying

516

: 00:27:43

to understand, you know, the job of the

product manager, broadly speaking, is

517

: 00:27:48

to solve for the needs of the customer,

you could say, in this context, who is

518

: 00:27:54

your customer, is it the end customer

that you're trying to sell to and serve?

519

: 00:28:00

And so you're looking at it through

is what we're trying to do here.

520

: 00:28:04

Serving that person or is the

customer, the internal stakeholder

521

: 00:28:09

who you're saying, you know, as long

as I deliver the needs for them and

522

: 00:28:12

they get what they want, whether it

ultimately serves the needs of that

523

: 00:28:16

end customer, you know, is up to them.

524

: 00:28:17

And I, I've heard arguments and I can

see pros and cons of both points of view.

525

: 00:28:21

I'm curious where you

land on that question.

526

: 00:28:24

Josh Hill: Well it depends right?

527

: 00:28:26

Like, what are we building, right?

528

: 00:28:28

So if I'm building

self-service segmentation tool.

529

: 00:28:32

That's typically an internal product I

don't have to worry or think through a lot

530

: 00:28:36

of the customer impacts other than maybe

like ensuring that we have certain privacy

531

: 00:28:40

rules around it or communication limits.

532

: 00:28:43

For example, I have to worry about

did I understand the goal and is

533

: 00:28:48

it actually going to deliver that?

534

: 00:28:49

And is it easy to use?

535

: 00:28:51

Is that one of the requirements?

536

: 00:28:53

Or do you need a sequel?

537

: 00:28:54

I would assume in a self service

situation you would want to have right

538

: 00:28:58

As little code as possible in order

for a natural understanding of how

539

: 00:29:02

someone would think about a segmentation

and how to enable them to do it.

540

: 00:29:06

And you might have an MVP and you

might build out additional things.

541

: 00:29:09

And I've done that.

542

: 00:29:11

And the more difficult conversations tend

to be someone wants it now and didn't

543

: 00:29:16

talk to you ahead of time and think

through their entire process and you try

544

: 00:29:20

to bring them through the requirements

process just to really understand

545

: 00:29:23

what are we trying to achieve, right?

546

: 00:29:25

Get them to explain themselves.

547

: 00:29:26

And they don't always love that.

548

: 00:29:28

But sometimes people.

549

: 00:29:29

Warm up to the process, especially if you

deliver and other times it's been okay.

550

: 00:29:35

This is an internal and an external

impact, I always think of events or

551

: 00:29:39

privacy in that sense, because they often

have internal processes and procedures.

552

: 00:29:44

That we need to build out for and

there's customer experience impacts.

553

: 00:29:48

So we don't have certain privacy

operationalized that could impact

554

: 00:29:52

the customer in negative ways, or as

well as the company in negative ways.

555

: 00:29:56

And people don't love it when you bring

up potential hurdles, but these are all

556

: 00:30:01

things we can just make decisions on.

557

: 00:30:03

These aren't inherently hurdles unless you

want to do something that's just illegal.

558

: 00:30:08

okay, you want to build a CDP.

559

: 00:30:09

Here's what it's going to take.

560

: 00:30:11

We can either stop doing these things,

or we can hire an agency or hire a

561

: 00:30:14

team to get it started or launched.

562

: 00:30:16

Do we have the right

business case for that?

563

: 00:30:18

And working with them.

564

: 00:30:19

And I've had great partnerships with

many stakeholders about building that

565

: 00:30:22

business case to be effective and either

making a decision like, yeah, That's

566

: 00:30:26

probably not going to have an ROI.

567

: 00:30:27

Maybe we should forget about that.

568

: 00:30:29

Or yeah, this does have a great

ROI and it's going to pass all of

569

: 00:30:33

our IT procurement and financial

teams with flying colors.

570

: 00:30:38

Justin Norris: That ROI question,

can be troubling because I think CDP

571

: 00:30:43

or self service segmentation project

that you described is a good example.

572

: 00:30:48

You could have a model project in the

sense that you work with your stakeholder,

573

: 00:30:51

you define their requirements, you

deliver it, it works well, it's scalable.

574

: 00:30:57

And then the other question is, as

a result of having that capability,

575

: 00:31:00

were they actually able to send better

communications that produced more revenue?

576

: 00:31:05

So it's like the project was

successful on one side, but then

577

: 00:31:07

did it ultimately meet its goal?

578

: 00:31:09

The goal that the marketer had.

579

: 00:31:11

Do you need to care about that?

580

: 00:31:12

Or is there a certain size at scale of

company at which point the separation of

581

: 00:31:16

powers is such that you just can't really.

582

: 00:31:19

Have that conversation

effectively anymore.

583

: 00:31:23

Josh Hill: yes.

584

: 00:31:24

So one of the things I had in my

presentation I talked about is I

585

: 00:31:29

can make a growth estimate, right?

586

: 00:31:31

Having a meeting tool is going

to likely get us 25 percent more

587

: 00:31:34

meetings and that'll justify the

cost of this tool and implementation.

588

: 00:31:38

And ideally, you've built in a process

and a set of metrics and you've captured

589

: 00:31:43

that data so that in a month, two months,

six months from now, you can actually

590

: 00:31:47

compare before and after and say, yep,

we achieved that or Nope, we didn't.

591

: 00:31:51

And ideally, you can make a harder call

and say, okay, well, we didn't achieve the

592

: 00:31:56

goal, but it's still paying for itself.

593

: 00:31:58

Okay, let's investigate

how we can increase it.

594

: 00:32:01

Or it's completely not doing anything.

595

: 00:32:03

Do we cancel it?

596

: 00:32:05

The sales squeal about it.

597

: 00:32:07

Can we just keep it there?

598

: 00:32:08

That's a little squishier goal.

599

: 00:32:10

I tend to be a little harsher and say

like, well, I didn't achieve the goal.

600

: 00:32:13

Maybe we should stop spending money on it.

601

: 00:32:16

And I've done that.

602

: 00:32:16

we had a potentially great idea.

603

: 00:32:19

It's been a lot of time building

it out with the vendor and

604

: 00:32:22

they use 15 percent of it.

605

: 00:32:24

And I asked the stakeholders,

did this change anything?

606

: 00:32:28

Did you achieve your adoption

goal because of this product?

607

: 00:32:31

And they said, nope, which is great.

608

: 00:32:33

Sometimes they don't

admit those things, right?

609

: 00:32:34

They don't want to say

that they were wrong.

610

: 00:32:36

But data doesn't lie,

which is nice, usually.

611

: 00:32:40

So I said, okay, well,

we're going to cancel it.

612

: 00:32:41

And you know what happened?

613

: 00:32:42

It turned out we could have built the same

thing with VelocityScript if we had just

614

: 00:32:45

Thought about it a little harder instead

of rushing into it, that's where, You do

615

: 00:32:50

have to kind of push back a little bit and

think like what options do I really have?

616

: 00:32:54

And could I have built an MVP for free

rather than putting, you know, huge

617

: 00:32:57

amount of effort and direct dollars into

this I've also had other products where

618

: 00:33:02

we did the segmentation thing and It

wasn't really for hyper segmentation.

619

: 00:33:07

Oh, that's a favorite topic of mine.

620

: 00:33:09

It was just to try to speed the marketer

to be at the keyboard and say, okay, how

621

: 00:33:15

many people can I get for this invitation?

622

: 00:33:17

For example instead of waiting for

three or four days for a SQL expert

623

: 00:33:21

data engineer to do this because

of the various complexities and

624

: 00:33:26

it didn't really get adopted and

probably had two or three versions of

625

: 00:33:29

that built because of poor adoption.

626

: 00:33:33

we could debate what that was, but at

some point, we kind of just stopped

627

: 00:33:36

maintaining the product, and that's

why we have the RDs and ROI analysis

628

: 00:33:40

to try to figure out, is this really

worth the effort and following

629

: 00:33:44

up on that process to understand,

did we actually achieve that goal?

630

: 00:33:48

And sometimes you do,

I mean, which is great,

631

: 00:33:50

Justin Norris: hopefully

more often than not.

632

: 00:33:51

Josh Hill: Ideally.

633

: 00:33:52

Yeah.

634

: 00:33:52

Justin Norris: so you're constantly

making these sorts of decisions,

635

: 00:33:55

but they don't happen in a vacuum.

636

: 00:33:57

Ideally with a product, you have a

roadmap, a longer term plan, how long that

637

: 00:34:02

can be, typically depending on the size of

the company and how fast or slow it moves.

638

: 00:34:08

How do you think about that

process of building a roadmap?

639

: 00:34:11

I know sometimes when I sit down with

a blank page, you can be overwhelmed by

640

: 00:34:14

the different possibilities and all the

different things you could be doing.

641

: 00:34:18

So how do you.

642

: 00:34:19

bring structure to that

643

: 00:34:20

Josh Hill: Well, roadmapping is

also a product management technique

644

: 00:34:24

as well as an IT technique.

645

: 00:34:25

And it's very much the

same former of mops.

646

: 00:34:27

It's very much the same for a product

or an enterprise apps team, right?

647

: 00:34:30

What's the strategy of the org?

648

: 00:34:31

And that should determine your priorities

and generally your methodology.

649

: 00:34:34

if that's not communicated effectively,

then that's going to create a lot

650

: 00:34:37

more conflicts across the organization

because you don't have a rubric,

651

: 00:34:40

you don't have an ROI base to make

comparisons without escalation, And

652

: 00:34:45

you want to have ROI prioritization

so you minimize the impact of a HIPPO.

653

: 00:34:50

And, of course, your feelings, Interview

stakeholders and certainly bring your

654

: 00:34:54

own opinions Look at the marketplace.

655

: 00:34:55

Look at the strategy of the larger company

and the other and your competitors.

656

: 00:34:59

Ideally, right?

657

: 00:35:00

What are they doing?

658

: 00:35:01

Are they seeing success?

659

: 00:35:03

And do that gap analysis of your

capabilities versus where you think you

660

: 00:35:06

want to go and where the marketers and

sales team thinks they want to go, And

661

: 00:35:09

map that back to your goals, your timing.

662

: 00:35:12

And then, of course,

always outcomes, right?

663

: 00:35:15

Are we getting an ROI?

664

: 00:35:16

And when are those milestones?

665

: 00:35:17

And when should we

actually achieve that ROI?

666

: 00:35:20

And of course, you know,

is that cost reduction?

667

: 00:35:22

Is that a revenue gain?

668

: 00:35:23

What's that total cost of ownership?

669

: 00:35:24

Really kind of think through

all those pieces, right?

670

: 00:35:27

If we're going to build a CVP, do we have

all of our other data ducks in a row?

671

: 00:35:31

And what would that cost us?

672

: 00:35:33

And what would that help us achieve?

673

: 00:35:34

so if your overall strategy is we're going

to have omni channel personalization.

674

: 00:35:38

You're going to make different decisions

in your roadmap to achieve that.

675

: 00:35:41

If you're doing a PLG motion,

you're going to have different

676

: 00:35:44

decisions and milestones.

677

: 00:35:45

If you're doing PLG plus SLG, you'll

have different tools and different

678

: 00:35:50

needs and different capabilities.

679

: 00:35:53

Justin Norris: very tactically.

680

: 00:35:54

How do you communicate

what the roadmap is?

681

: 00:35:57

Do you have, Google slide deck?

682

: 00:35:59

Do you have a wiki page?

683

: 00:36:02

Cause I find that's a big area of

either concern or stress or frustration

684

: 00:36:06

for stakeholders when they want

something, but you're saying not

685

: 00:36:08

right now, but then they're like,

well, where does it sit in there?

686

: 00:36:10

Like they kind of want.

687

: 00:36:11

This visibility.

688

: 00:36:12

How do you provide that?

689

: 00:36:14

Josh Hill: It's about knowing

your audience, You know, the

690

: 00:36:15

technical schematic is generally

for you and the IT team.

691

: 00:36:19

I wouldn't show that to

anyone typically outside.

692

: 00:36:22

You know, your roadmap could also be

missing something they asked for, and

693

: 00:36:26

you could show them the roadmap and say,

if you want this in the next six months,

694

: 00:36:30

which is usually how long XYZ would

take, we have to change the roadmap.

695

: 00:36:34

And this is how we're

gonna, how we could do that.

696

: 00:36:36

I think educating marketers

and salespeople about those

697

: 00:36:40

capabilities is really important.

698

: 00:36:41

If you're not doing that every

quarter, they tend to forget and

699

: 00:36:44

then they go off and buy something.

700

: 00:36:45

And you're like, well, I could have

done that for you in 10 minutes.

701

: 00:36:47

Why did you go off and buy something?

702

: 00:36:49

Oh, we didn't know.

703

: 00:36:51

Too late.

704

: 00:36:52

But you did know because

it's on the wiki page.

705

: 00:36:55

Well, they don't know that.

706

: 00:36:56

They're not going to go look at that.

707

: 00:36:57

Right?

708

: 00:36:57

That's why, you know, procurement

processes are important to try to

709

: 00:37:01

catch them before they go too far.

710

: 00:37:04

Yeah, I mean, a wiki page can

help, a spreadsheet can help.

711

: 00:37:07

Ideally, it's some sort of slider visual

that explains capabilities possibly

712

: 00:37:12

against the funnel or customer lifecycle.

713

: 00:37:15

I've tried different versions of that.

714

: 00:37:18

I don't think there's any one

solution that works for every

715

: 00:37:20

company in all situations.

716

: 00:37:23

There was a really great set of slides

and I don't think I downloaded it, but

717

: 00:37:28

someone posted on LinkedIn and one of

those little click things that slide

718

: 00:37:31

through that you can't really download.

719

: 00:37:34

And they were explaining

how the PLGmotion can work.

720

: 00:37:37

And it was kind of a very simple

set of steps and it was in a multi

721

: 00:37:42

slide version, which I thought

was actually kind of helpful.

722

: 00:37:44

I'm a little bit curious.

723

: 00:37:45

The motion.

724

: 00:37:47

And then here are increasingly detailed

views of the kind of tool you would need

725

: 00:37:52

to enable that part of the motion and that

messaging, adding a sales motion to it.

726

: 00:37:58

You know, where does

your product fit into it?

727

: 00:38:00

It doesn't have to describe your every

database and our data flow, but it

728

: 00:38:03

kind of generally described the motion.

729

: 00:38:05

And I thought that was

actually pretty helpful and was

730

: 00:38:07

probably digestible by most.

731

: 00:38:10

Senior leaders, but any

sort of capability guy.

732

: 00:38:14

I had a lot of different views as

well as a giant deck it was part

733

: 00:38:19

of our marketing enablement effort.

734

: 00:38:21

And it you know, we had a wiki and

we had an image, but I also had, you

735

: 00:38:25

know, 200 slides explaining every tool

we had and who used it, who owned it,

736

: 00:38:29

who, why it was being used, what it

could do Theoretically you could search

737

: 00:38:32

that, did anybody really do that?

738

: 00:38:34

I don't know.

739

: 00:38:35

But it was a more helpful guide for my

team because it showed everything and

740

: 00:38:39

not just my team, but all the other

teams that we worked with, you could see

741

: 00:38:43

the whole ecosystem and capabilities.

742

: 00:38:46

So I don't have a good answer for you.

743

: 00:38:47

That's going to be the silver bullet.

744

: 00:38:51

Justin Norris: No, I don't

think it's universal.

745

: 00:38:52

But it's yeah, having that something

with the right level of detail that is

746

: 00:38:57

accessible that gives people what they

want, but that doesn't become you know, a

747

: 00:39:01

homework assignment in and of itself that

Sucks a lot of oxygen out of the room.

748

: 00:39:06

Josh Hill: You know, if we're gonna

bring it back to product management

749

: 00:39:07

for a moment, like these things

are always living documents, right?

750

: 00:39:11

And you can reprioritize depending

on your stakeholders, your customers,

751

: 00:39:14

the changes in the marketplace, right?

752

: 00:39:16

Like if AI wasn't on your roadmap a

year ago, it probably is now, right?

753

: 00:39:21

And, you know, engineers are also

going to push back on aspects of it

754

: 00:39:25

or offer their own advice that might

impact how you want to think through

755

: 00:39:28

the order in which things get done.

756

: 00:39:30

Or might make it simpler for you to

achieve certain things if you kind

757

: 00:39:33

of walk through the specifications

and they can give you feedback

758

: 00:39:36

on the best way to achieve that.

759

: 00:39:39

And you might.

760

: 00:39:40

Keep that as a living document, but it's

really up to you as the product manager

761

: 00:39:44

of your, go to market platform to keep

that in front of engineers and your team,

762

: 00:39:50

stakeholders, as well as executives.

763

: 00:39:53

And I know that's hard

because I've done that.

764

: 00:39:55

And it's hard because you're doing all

these other things they asked me to do.

765

: 00:39:58

You're trying to actually

execute on the roadmap.

766

: 00:39:59

So do you have time to flash

it up every now and then?

767

: 00:40:03

Say, hey, this is what we achieved.

768

: 00:40:04

This is where we're going.

769

: 00:40:05

This is what has changed.

770

: 00:40:07

But you do have to do it

as a senior MOPS leader

771

: 00:40:10

Justin Norris: I saw a scenario recently

where something broke, you know, that

772

: 00:40:13

you would consider to be pretty vital to

the business and it had a product impact

773

: 00:40:19

or product input was required to fix it.

774

: 00:40:22

And yet even.

775

: 00:40:24

With that happening you know, it

wasn't like the product team just

776

: 00:40:28

jumped on that and said, yeah, we're

going to drop everything and fix that.

777

: 00:40:30

It said we need to review this against

all our priorities and then we need to

778

: 00:40:34

arbitrate what's going to take precedence.

779

: 00:40:36

And I thought that was an impressive

display of cool headedness and

780

: 00:40:40

rationality because yep, I know that

there's a fire there, but actually

781

: 00:40:43

there's already three fires over

here or there's a water leak here.

782

: 00:40:46

And like, We still need to always

have that assessment and they had,

783

: 00:40:49

obviously, through long experience,

the courage of their convictions

784

: 00:40:51

and the sort of fortitude to stick

to that process, even though something

785

: 00:40:55

really significant had gone wrong.

786

: 00:40:56

I don't often see mobs teams have that

same kind of fortitude and courage of

787

: 00:41:01

their convictions, I guess, in those

situations, like, okay, great, like

788

: 00:41:04

that you want to do this, or this is

broken, like, here's all the other things

789

: 00:41:07

how do you think we cultivate that?

790

: 00:41:09

Is it just sort of rewiring?

791

: 00:41:10

Our brains, or how else can we do that?

792

: 00:41:13

Josh Hill: Yeah, right.

793

: 00:41:13

ultimately you can only control

your own actions and reactions.

794

: 00:41:17

So you're right.

795

: 00:41:17

Whoever said that was very much in

control of themselves and very confident

796

: 00:41:21

in Their position and process and

that does need to be cultivated and

797

: 00:41:26

having a good coach, a good executive

leader on your side can help that

798

: 00:41:31

having clear incident processes and

documentation can help build that motion.

799

: 00:41:34

Just because you know, you're

following the triage process

800

: 00:41:38

or the prioritization process.

801

: 00:41:39

And that's why it's also again

important to have a ROI based approach

802

: 00:41:43

to prioritization that matches your

company strategy because you can

803

: 00:41:46

always point and say, well, you guys

agreed that we're going to do this.

804

: 00:41:49

Rankly is based on ROI, and your ROI

is here, and these other projects

805

: 00:41:54

are up here, so I'm going to do those

first, that takes discipline on your

806

: 00:41:59

part, But it also takes discipline

on the part of the executives.

807

: 00:42:02

they need to be clear about the ROI,

about the priorities of the business.

808

: 00:42:06

They need to have that discussion

together and not in silos.

809

: 00:42:11

And that takes discipline on their part.

810

: 00:42:12

And if that's not happening,

for some reason, and they're

811

: 00:42:14

stomping their feet you know,

that's where you escalate, right?

812

: 00:42:17

Or You know, get everybody on a

phone call and say, Hey, look, we've

813

: 00:42:20

got this conflict about priorities.

814

: 00:42:22

X, Y, Z.

815

: 00:42:23

So they wanted this.

816

: 00:42:24

This is where it falls into the process.

817

: 00:42:26

These other things are a

lower priority right now.

818

: 00:42:29

if you want to change that's fine.

819

: 00:42:30

Let's figure it out now before

we get too far, whether that's

820

: 00:42:33

a fire or it's a project.

821

: 00:42:36

And I Again, that's a personal

thing that somebody has to really

822

: 00:42:40

build into their leadership team.

823

: 00:42:43

Justin Norris: so maybe just final

thoughts, wrapping up this topic.

824

: 00:42:46

Let's say somebody is not in this

product management mode right now.

825

: 00:42:50

Their team has a sort of different

posture in relation to their stakeholders,

826

: 00:42:53

but they want to make this transition.

827

: 00:42:56

What are like kind of the simple first,

second and third things they can do to

828

: 00:43:00

start to make this evolution a reality?

829

: 00:43:03

Josh Hill: think first recognition

is to think that, especially if

830

: 00:43:06

you've been doing mops for a while.

831

: 00:43:07

You're probably doing half of the

thing as a product manager does,

832

: 00:43:11

but you're just not thinking that

you're doing product management.

833

: 00:43:14

So that's 1 thing.

834

: 00:43:15

You can just say, hey,

I'm a product manager now.

835

: 00:43:17

And then that will get you into a

learning mode to say, okay, well,

836

: 00:43:20

what else does a product manager do?

837

: 00:43:22

And, you know, there's a couple of things.

838

: 00:43:25

That you're doing today, So you're

doing things like pain points and

839

: 00:43:28

requirement gathering, you're building

features, whether that's a event

840

: 00:43:33

in a box program template or entire

chat workflow or whatever, right?

841

: 00:43:38

You might have some goals and metrics.

842

: 00:43:40

You might have some feedback loops

already with your stakeholders,

843

: 00:43:43

Are they adopting this product?

844

: 00:43:44

Is a customer using it?

845

: 00:43:45

Is it generating revenue?

846

: 00:43:47

Is it tied to revenue?

847

: 00:43:48

So you're doing maybe like

three or four out of the eight.

848

: 00:43:51

Core thing to add as you grow is

to say, okay, well, you might want

849

: 00:43:56

to look at using a framework to

validate and prioritize, Whether

850

: 00:44:00

it's an ROI framework or a larger

view of the business, And what's

851

: 00:44:04

that strategy the business is taking?

852

: 00:44:06

What business are you actually in?

853

: 00:44:08

Do you understand the

business owners metrics?

854

: 00:44:11

Do you understand the potential

market scope of your opportunity in

855

: 00:44:14

the larger scale business, right?

856

: 00:44:15

Whatever that is, right?

857

: 00:44:16

Do you fully understand the target

market, the buying teams, the ICPs,

858

: 00:44:21

and does your database validate those?

859

: 00:44:24

Are you close to monetization?

860

: 00:44:26

And you don't have to be necessarily,

but you know, if you own a chat product

861

: 00:44:29

or you're building out certain things

that impact revenue in some way, like

862

: 00:44:33

certain kinds of campaigns or workflows

make sure you know that number.

863

: 00:44:37

Talk about that number, Going back

was easy for me to prioritize it.

864

: 00:44:40

I love that example because I could

call up The person requested it.

865

: 00:44:43

And I said, what's your revenue

change from the time before and after?

866

: 00:44:47

And they would tell me and we love

building for them because they always

867

: 00:44:51

told us how well we were doing.

868

: 00:44:53

But don't just make it depend on them.

869

: 00:44:55

Right?

870

: 00:44:55

Build that into your process.

871

: 00:44:57

Understand the goal of the product itself.

872

: 00:44:58

What is the aha moment?

873

: 00:45:00

That the product manager of

your product is building and do

874

: 00:45:03

you have it in your database?

875

: 00:45:05

Are you working on projects related to it?

876

: 00:45:07

Should you be maybe you should

be can you have that conversation

877

: 00:45:11

with the customer lifecycle team?

878

: 00:45:12

Or the product manager of the business

that you're in and that will help you

879

: 00:45:16

Obviously better align with the business

and your business stakeholders a lot of

880

: 00:45:20

people talk about this on linkedin But The

product management discipline is typically

881

: 00:45:24

closer to a business, and the more you

can talk about the business, as they

882

: 00:45:29

always say, right, the more executives

will be aligned with you, or you'll be

883

: 00:45:32

aligned with the executives, and the

more they'll view you not an operations

884

: 00:45:35

function that's there to serve them.

885

: 00:45:37

They'll view you as that partner,

and you won't get flamed on LinkedIn

886

: 00:45:42

by people who claim you're not

paying attention to their needs.

887

: 00:45:45

Because you actually are.

888

: 00:45:46

Because you understand the

business that they're actually

889

: 00:45:47

in and you're supporting it.

890

: 00:45:49

Justin Norris: That's a

great note to end on Josh.

891

: 00:45:51

I want to thank you for joining me

today and, the knowledge and support

892

: 00:45:56

you've shared kind of with the community

at large and with me personally over

893

: 00:46:00

the years, I'm really grateful for

894

: 00:46:01

Josh Hill: Always glad to do it, Justin.

895

: 00:46:03

Thank you for having me.