The Evolution of Marketing Operations - Darrell Alfonso
What lies ahead for marketing operations? How can it become more strategic and impactful?
Darrell Alfonso has spent the past ten years answering these questions through his work at companies like AWS and Indeed. He's also dedicated himself to moving the discipline of marketing ops forward as an author, teacher, speaker, and thought-leader.
In this episode, he shares his vision of how marketing operations can encompass both strategy and technical expertise and describes how MOPS practitioners can level-up in their careers.
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About Today's Guest
Darrell Alfonso is a 2x Marketo Champion, course instructor, Author of "The Martech Handbook", and frequent speaker and thought-leader.
He's held marketing and operations leadership positions at Indeed, Amazon Web Services, Hitwise, and the American Marketing Association.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrellalfonso/
Key Topics
- [00:00] - Introduction
- [00:58] - Darrell's definition of marketing operations: the art and science of executing great marketing. Key pillars: planning and strategy, technology management, process design, analytics, business alignment.
- [02:48] - Evolution of marketing ops from being tech-centric to business-centric.
- [04:59] - Challenges of that evolutionary process. Potential discomfort within ops of moving into a role where they have revenue accountability. MOPS people have an allegiance to craft, but should focus on what the business needs.
- [07:43] - Risk of feeling powerless or misunderstood. Need for operators to better communicate our value.
- [09:25] - Darrell's background in communications and how it's impacted his career. The importance of communication within operations and how it's helped him grow as a leader. Internal communication is not about being self-promotional. It's about playing together effectively as a team (analogy of a sports team).
- [14:43] - How Darrell's role combines both strategy and operations. Strategy is the set of choices we make in service of an objective. Tactics at one level of the business become the strategy for the next level. Discussion of how this applies within Darrell's current company.
- [26:08] - Description of Darrell's team and how it functions. How marketing technology sits within a separate Business Systems function.
- [29:46] - What Darrell's ideal org structure would look like. Pros and cons of separating tech into a Business Systems group. Need for technologists to have technical leadership. Similar issue applies with SDRs and whether they report into marketing or sales.
- [36:25] - Building a personal brand in marketing operations. Benefits and how to do it. Difference between personal branding and cultivating an audience.
Resource Links
- The Marketing Operations Handbook: A Complete Guide to Marketing Operations - Darrell referenced this book, by revenue operator Michael McKinnon, several times during the episode.
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Transcript
Welcome to Rev Ops fm everyone.
2
:Today gonna dig into how ops and
strategy connect with each other,
3
:support each other, and really what
it means to become more strategic
4
:as ops practitioners and leaders.
5
:And we have the right person to talk
to today because our guest is Daryl
6
:Alfonso, director of both marketing
strategy and operations at . Indeed.
7
:He's also held former leadership
roles at Amazon Hitwise, the
8
:American Marketing Association.
9
:He's a course instructor at MarTech
Alliance and the author of the
10
:MarTech Handbook, and he finds
time to sleep somewhere all that.
11
:welcome to the show.
12
:Darrell Alfonso: Hey, thanks for
having me, appreciate the opportunity.
13
:I love this conversation.
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:And, I mean, I'm a big fan of
your thought leadership too.
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:Justin Norris: a lot.
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:I appreciate that.
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:Darrell Alfonso: we're
both in the right room.
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:Justin Norris: Awesome.
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:Well, I want to just start it
out by asking do you define
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:the scope of marketing ops?
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:It's kind of a thing where we all
sort of know what it is generally,
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:but it's hard to tell where it ends.
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:Where it begins.
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:So, in your various roles, where
draw lines around that function?
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:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, aspirationally
I think of marketing ops as art and
26
:science of executing great marketing.
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:So I always like to put that up on the,
like, like on a billboard of like the,
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:the major direction that we want to go.
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:I think historically marketing ops
has been really the tools, metrics
30
:and processes enable marketing.
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:I think that's changing.
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:know, I think that both you and I
grew up in that, era where it was
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:heavily based on the technology.
34
:and the marketing ops role was to
Manage and just drive the adoption
35
:and overall, use MarTech to help
marketers get to their goals.
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:It's like that was kind of like
the goal of marketing operations.
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:Justin Norris: Yep.
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:Darrell Alfonso: changing.
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:that me, think marketing
operations has oversight into
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:these like, A few key areas.
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:One is planning and strategy.
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:I love that.
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:Two is technology management, I
think encompasses most of what, we,
44
:talking about nexus process design,
you know, oversight over into like
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:how do we, campaigns out the door?
46
:do marketers do to work with the various
sides of the business, engage customers?
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:The fourth one is analytics,
like marketing, business
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:intelligence, marketing analytics.
49
:And then finally, I like to
call this business alignment.
50
:another way to put this, McKinnon,
for example, calls this category
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:support and administration.
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:That's inevitably what it does.
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:It's like there's things that break,
There's things that just need fixing.
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:But for me, I like the word business
alignment it, encompasses all the
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:little things that you need to do
so that the entire go-to-market
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:function works together smoothly.
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:I think, is the future of marketing
operations, those five categories.
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:Justin Norris: I think you're right
that historically been kind of it
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:for marketing, you know, really
focused on that tooling category.
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:And now more and more, and I've
seen you posts about this, you
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:other people talk about it.
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:Something I've spoken about kind of
coming out of bubble and expanding
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:to other areas of the business.
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:Do you feel as a discipline we are
struggling with that process, or
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:do you feel that it's, it's moving
along the way that it should?
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:Darrell Alfonso: I think
the business as a whole.
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:Businesses in general are
calling out for us as marketing
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:operators to step into that role.
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:I think that the biggest opportunity
right now, or maybe even gap,
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:that many marketing ops people,
even really smart ones, a little
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:bit reluctant to step into it.
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:I think that, you know,
I love the technology.
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:a Marketo champ, two time
Marketo champion back in the day.
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:And that means that I love
figuring out how to solve problems.
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:I love to build, know, that's what
I think for a lot, a lot of people
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:get attracted marketing operations
in the, in the first place.
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:always said that if you're doing
marketing, automation a platform
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:that's capable of supporting what
you wanna do, I think that it's
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:really just pseudo programming.
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:you know, and we are architecting
these solutions and that is, very
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:compelling and so And, what originally
drew me that to the profession.
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:Justin Norris: Me too.
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:Darrell Alfonso: think that, I
think that it is the same for a lot
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:of technical experts we can fall
into the trap of in love with just
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:this specific part and doing a good
job with the technology is where we
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:stop and that's what we aspire to.
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:And that, I think, is the biggest
gap between where marketing operators
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:are and where they should be.
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:And it's going to take Many of us,
you know, I think, I think myself
90
:and many other people in the space,
we're marketing operators step up,
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:like not away from the technology, but
to bring up the technology into the
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:business, the business objectives and
overall, uh, the customer experience.
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:And that's what I think I,
that's where I think the gap is.
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:Justin Norris: technology
things are very black and white.
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:You know, it works or it doesn't work.
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:It passes or it fails.
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:It's a one or a zero.
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:obviously there's issues around
communication and does it meet
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:requirements and lots of ambiguity, but
it's kind of a place of, safety and it
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:creates a buffer between marketers who
are responsible for business results
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:and, you know, ops people who are.
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:I do the tech, I enable you.
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:If it doesn't work, it's your problem.
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:Now, once we step more into
planning and strategy, that
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:buffer is harder to maintain.
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:There's actually a much
greater accountability.
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:You are more on the line business results.
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:And can be a scary thing for people
that, started out as marketers
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:and maybe didn't like that aspect
of it or just didn't start there
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:and, and find that intimidating.
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:Do you think there's any truth to that?
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:Darrell Alfonso: A little bit.
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:I think that maybe some truth in that
it can be a little bit scary, hold
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:ourselves accountable to things that we
been held accountable to before, that,
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:to things that we can't really control.
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:my theory, like, and I, I was reading
up on this earlier, my theory is that
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:the big issue is actually marketing
operations has an allegiance to the craft.
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:And what I mean by that is that we feel
that it's our role and it's only our
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:role build a world class tech stack.
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:or build.
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:World class processes, and that's the
end to itself, which can be fairly noble,
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:know, especially if you're maybe in the
consulting space or maybe a little bit
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:on the academic side, where you just
kind of study it for the sake of it.
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:what you're lacking, I think is the
overall ownership that's required.
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:that's where kind of
leadership comes into play.
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:Like it's not enough, like you said,
for this binary outcome to happen.
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:It's more of we need to work together
with the different sides of the group
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:to make sure the business is successful.
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:if that's sometimes means things
that's not aligned with what we feel is
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:world-class marketing operations, then We
have a responsibility to our organizations
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:and to our customers to do that.
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:Justin Norris: I agree
with you completely.
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:it's a shift in focus from being
A craftsperson, a technician.
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:And, still need those things.
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:And I should, also for the benefit
of anyone listening, I think as an
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:individual, it's completely valid
to say, actually that's who I am.
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:I am a technical architect.
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:That's the role that I want
to play in this whole machine.
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:know, that's where I excel.
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:And I can understand that completely,
but for the function as a whole,
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:I think it has to do more and
it has to be impact oriented.
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:And that's what I'm taking away
from what you're saying, that
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:it's not enough to say, I, I
built this really nice tech stack.
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:My marketing team missed its goals,
but my tech stack is spotless.
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:that's not good outcome for
the business, obviously.
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:Darrell Alfonso: Well, yeah, and you
and I have talked about this before,
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:and while you're right, it's, you
know, admirable and, and a good job
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:to, to be that sort of like technical
expert or subject matter expert.
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:what we see a lot of times, especially
with people progressing in their career
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:is they get into this like, woe is me.
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:Type and mentality of like,
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:I'm doing a good job, but everyone
else doesn't recognize it.
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:doing a good job, marketing
leadership doesn't appreciate me.
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:And that's, that to me is not
the place that you want to be in.
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:You know, it's a very like, I don't
wanna say learned helplessness, but
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:it's something along those lines Here's
something that I've, realized in my
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:journey through leadership and especially
like stepping into leadership roles.
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:If you have the opinion that only
other group or if only someone else
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:would change the way that they're
working, everything would be fine.
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:That's not the right attitude to have,
and that's the, that's the type of me,
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:that's the type of message that I'm
trying to, to send to marketing ops people
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:like, yeah, times are tough and yeah,
it's difficult for non-technical folk
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:to understand the value of our work and
why it's so important, it's not their
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:fault and if we need to lead the way in
sort of bringing together and marrying
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:strategy, impact, and technology, then
we are the ones to do it we should do it.
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:Justin Norris: I couldn't
agree with you more.
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:We have to see ourselves as, having
agency in that process and not
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:just being the victims of other
people's, ignorance or lack of
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:appreciation or anything like that.
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:talked about, you know, the message
you're trying to communicate and.
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:I was looking at your LinkedIn profile
in preparation for this discussion and
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:was struck by how many of your earlier
roles were actually in pure marketing
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:or even in communications, like you
had a communications and I haven't
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:seen that many people go from comms to
ops and, and so I was just wondering
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:about what that transition looked like
for you you drawing upon that today?
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:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah,
that that's a good point.
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:I think that, you know, early on
in my career, I, to be honest, I
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:just wanted to it's kind of funny.
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:really just wanted to get a high paying
marketing job, you know, and, uh, I
180
:didn't have as much experience, you
know, when you're like, you're outta
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:college and you just, you have a couple
years and some sort of like analyst or
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:generalist roles and those don't pay well.
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:I saw that, oh, you know what?
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:like if I owned the marketing
automation platform, was able to
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:build a tech stack for people.
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:Not only is it pretty well
paid, but it's highly respected.
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:Like you get included in a lot of like
a lot of top level meetings, even with,
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:even with not too much experience.
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:And that was kind of like
my first entrance into you
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:know, this builder mentality.
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:I'm like, well, wow, I really like that.
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:I did start to, you know, like at Hitwise
for example, I had a very marketing role.
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:Where oversaw, sales development well
as general marketing and demand gen.
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:but at with small teams, you can
always have your interest, I think,
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:and I've always been interested
in operations but I think because
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:I've always kind of straddled those
two roles and I've always taken a
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:particular interest in communication.
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:it's really helped me, I think,
get to this kind of stage.
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:I really do think the missing
skillset that requires that jump
200
:from, let's say, marketing operations
practitioner to marketing operations
201
:leader more than 90% communication.
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:I, I really, I really think it is, My
last role at, at a w s I think that
203
:one of the challenges that I had was I
almost kind of pigeonholed myself as a
204
:technologist, admittedly started to fall
into trap of doing things the right way.
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:Like, why isn't everything
falling into place?
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:It must be the other people.
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:I think that shift for me, I moved
over to Indeed, into even an even
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:higher leadership role and, and more
oversight into strategy, into people
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:leadership, I doubled down this theory
that if I could improve my communication
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:skills, I think I could grow my career.
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:And it's proved right so far.
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:last thing I'll mention about that is
that I think when you study communication
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:and people, what happens is you're better
able to translate what's happening.
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:I think that that's been a really
big one for me too, being able to
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:translate what the data means, what
the technology means, what happens if
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:all of the work, all of the great work
that we as marketing operators do, what
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:happens if that doesn't take place?
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:What happens if that doesn't occur?
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:What's the impact of the business?
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:I've been really happy.
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:With the progress that I've made, that
my team's made, of this shift in mindset.
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:Justin Norris: And there's a great
lesson there I think of every marketing
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:operations senior leader that I know in
my personal network at the director level,
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:the VP level, or even just people that
I see on LinkedIn and this ability to
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:communicate is, common theme all of them.
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:look at work that, I do in my own team,
and it's the same thing and I think maybe
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:part of the challenge is you feel
if you're just like coming back
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:to that commitment to craft, if
you're a craftsperson, you feel
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:I'm just going to do my best work.
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:and people will notice it, and it can feel
a little bit uncomfortable to toot your
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:own horn to appear to be self-promotional.
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:people can shy away from that.
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:But I think.
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:you can't just wait around for people
to recognize that you have to go
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:out there and explain the value.
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:And now, in many ways, I view that as
the most important part of my job with
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:anything that we're doing in my team.
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:Or like if if I'm working member of
the marketing ops team on a task, it's
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:like, all right, what is the impact?
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:What is the story like, thinking
ahead presenting this to the rest of
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:the team once it's all said and done.
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:Which is not just the communications
aspect, but it really does ground
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:you in what is the impact that
I'm having and make sure that
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:you're not wasting your time.
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:So I think there's a double
benefit there as well.
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:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, the point
that you made around like, Hey, I'm
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:worried that it's self emotional.
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:I don't think of it that way.
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:I did think of it that
way, but I don't anymore.
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:What I more think about is it's like
a sports team, it's soccer, football,
251
:or basketball, a team communicating
to each other about what's happening.
252
:you're calling out a play, you're
yelling out to your teammate to watch
253
:out for something if you're guiding
them to, do something because you're
254
:gonna score at the end, if you don't
say anything, none of that happens.
255
:your teammates don't know what's happening
and your you're sort of guessing the
256
:entire, play will play out on the field.
257
:how I consider things like, marketing
operations Q B R, presentations,
258
:demo days, stakeholders.
259
:speaking up at all hands meetings,
speaking up at leadership meetings.
260
:That's what we're doing.
261
:We're calling things out and we're
doing so in service of the mission.
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:if any of your listeners are, wary about
being too self-promotional, I think that
263
:they should consider the danger of not
communicating that danger is very real.
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:Justin Norris: Yep.
265
:Just be the person down the end
zone waiting to get the ball and no
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:one knows they're there, you know?
267
:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah.
268
:and what do you say?
269
:Like, well, I did my part.
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:I'm here.
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:must be everyone else.
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:That's wrong.
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:Right.
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:It must be everybody else.
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:And that's, it's not true.
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:Justin Norris: let's dive deeper
into strategy and operations, which
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:so interested in this topic because.
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:know, we have a business culture that
privileges strategy, like like being
279
:strategic is inherently a compliment.
280
:It's a positive thing.
281
:Everybody wants to be strategic.
282
:Even now you're in a
role wearing both hats.
283
:I've seen some people do this
before, so it's not, unheard of,
284
:but it's also not super common.
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:So I'm just curious for you, what does
it mean, how do you define your role?
286
:How, how do these two things come
together in the work that you do?
287
:Darrell Alfonso: in short, I really think
that is about answering tough questions
288
:the choices that you're gonna make.
289
:the definition of strategy as the
set of choices that we make in
290
:service of some objective, right?
291
:Because if you choose to do
something, are by default choosing
292
:not to do something else, right?
293
:Justin Norris: mm-hmm.
294
:Darrell Alfonso: choose Marketo,
you've not chosen Pardot,
295
:you've not chosen hard spot.
296
:if you choose a, a centralized,
source of truth strategy, you're,
297
:you're not choosing, you know, a, a
different version of a data strategy.
298
:So, so strategy is choice.
299
:The other thing that people
don't get about strategy is
300
:that there's different levels.
301
:Because choices are made at every level.
302
:so if you think about the company strategy
about like which markets we should enter,
303
:which products that we, we should produce,
and which customers should we target?
304
:Those are like really
big strategies, right?
305
:it comes to the marketing section, the
marketing might be tactics in service
306
:of the, company level strategy, but
for us marketers, is the strategy.
307
:So at each level, the
tactics become the strategy.
308
:So that's like a really
interesting concept that, that
309
:I, I try to explain to people.
310
:so, what that leads me to say is
that when it comes to marketing, I'm
311
:overseeing operations, I'm al also
overseeing the choices in which we make.
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:In order to try to achieve
our marketing goals.
313
:And these strategies could be something
like, do we take a centralized or
314
:decentralized approach to the way
that we do, campaign building?
315
:builds it?
316
:Is it regional pods of people?
317
:at a w s for example, anyone could
build largely decentralized, you know,
318
:Microsoft at least, you know, when I talk
to my colleagues over there, . They have
319
:a big centralized organization, right?
320
:They call this global demand center.
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:Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.
322
:Darrell Alfonso: this is kinda like a
choice that you have to make, you do that
323
:based on, factors that are to your org.
324
:You know, do you have the talent to do it?
325
:What's the tooling look like?
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:Are the tools centralized and
standardized so that anyone can use it?
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:If not, you know, or if, if it requires
some technical talent, you know,
328
:you, you probably should, should move
to more of a centralized function.
329
:I, I think that there's a number of those
questions that, you know, people have
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:this wrong impression that there's like
one gold standard way of doing marketing
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:operations, It's just not, it's not true.
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:It's not true at all.
333
:one of the things that I'm
working on right now like this
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:concept of like, what's our mix?
335
:Right.
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:What's our mix of people
that build campaigns?
337
:What's our mix of, internal talent,
external talent an agency for
338
:example, that typically have a little
bit more technical skills, right?
339
:They, they, some coding, maybe
they know some, some development.
340
:then, you know, maybe some
contracting talent, like people
341
:we bring on specifically for this.
342
:what's that right mix that I, that
I'm, that I'm trying to get to now?
343
:And it's not kind of firm, but I
love the idea that for some of our
344
:largest campaigns, like let's say
user conference, let's say customer
345
:wide nurture all prospects coming
into the funnel, large campaigns that
346
:we do, think that those should be in
hand, Attached to internal employees.
347
:You know, I think that number
one, they can be in all the
348
:meetings with all of these people.
349
:They can get ahead of the strategy.
350
:the other thing that a lot of people don't
think about is it's really good for their
351
:careers if they are able to solve these
tough problems that have high visibility.
352
:are some other stuff for some
reason, marketing leaders just
353
:don't understand why it's valuable.
354
:A lot of the administration work,
a lot of the behind the scenes data
355
:work, that's perfect opportunity
for an agency, you know what I mean?
356
:Like the agency can do it.
357
:They're typically a little bit
more technical than, um, talent.
358
:Like they can source these
technical experts pretty quickly.
359
:they're a nice fit to do some of things.
360
:And then some of the like standard,
I would say, run of the mill
361
:campaigns, we can look elsewhere
for other talent, like maybe
362
:contractor talent, freelancer talent.
363
:but I'm not saying like this is the
right way for everyone, but what
364
:I'm saying is this is strategy.
365
:It's
366
:Justin Norris: Right,
367
:Darrell Alfonso: like how
do we approach these things?
368
:And that's, that's what strategy
and operations means to me.
369
:Justin Norris: I love what
you're saying about the hierarchy
370
:of strategy and tactics.
371
:'cause I've always, chewed on this for
a while, cause I'm really big at having
372
:clear definitions just in terms of how
I think like, well, one, one strategies,
373
:the next person's tactics, depending on
which level that you're, working on it.
374
:That makes perfect sense to me.
375
:Now, what you've described, I'd almost
call it like an operational strategy,
376
:like given a certain . Objective and
given a certain, set of decisions to
377
:continue your definition of, strategy
is making choices, certain set of
378
:choices have already been made.
379
:We are going to run X campaigns, we
are going to do a user conference.
380
:Now how should we best support that
in terms of the team structure,
381
:the roles and responsibilities, the
technology that is downstream of those
382
:decisions that have already been made.
383
:does your role encompass ? some of those
upstream decisions as well, or is it
384
:really marketing strategy and operations?
385
:Meaning strategy in the ops context?
386
:Darrell Alfonso: some of the larger,
let's say big Rock initiatives
387
:don't happen at my level, right?
388
:They'll happen at like the VP level.
389
:Should
390
:Justin Norris: Yeah.
391
:Darrell Alfonso: user conference?
392
:You know, we spend X million of dollars
on this channel versus this channel?
393
:Right.
394
:I think that a lot of the work that
my team does and in partnership with
395
:other groups, we inform and like we
help collaborate on those decisions.
396
:think that making those possible,
like reaching the OKRs of our
397
:business, I think that that's more
the strategy realm that my team plays.
398
:I will say that, and this is common
at other organizations too is we
399
:also have a planning function, right?
400
:it's a planning and strategy
function that's actually separate
401
:from marketing operations.
402
:They kind of report up to
the C M O, a lot of them.
403
:Uh, common, a common one
is like chief of staff,
404
:Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.
405
:Darrell Alfonso: of staff,
like we have a chief of staff
406
:and then she also has a team.
407
:This is also marketing operations,
just a different side of it and that
408
:team's work stream is the one that
sets the path to create the strategy.
409
:the format in which that
happens is a timeline.
410
:It's like a really big project where
companies goals and overall is developed
411
:and then there's a, cascade of Actions and
decisions that have to be made after that.
412
:So after the company decides what their
OKRs are, for example, the marketing team
413
:needs to determine what their strategic
plan is alongside of what those OKRs are.
414
:After the OKRs and strategies
developed, then we need to have
415
:the budgeting conversation and the
resourcing conversation of what
416
:do we need to make that happen.
417
:Following that comes the more
tactical things like the campaigns.
418
:What campaigns do we need the
campaigns either in tandem with
419
:marketing operations or like soon
after we come up with the operational
420
:strategy because the operational
strategy needs to support the campaign
421
:Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.
422
:Darrell Alfonso: in all,
there's an entire work stream.
423
:That's not the responsibility of
my team but it does fall in what I
424
:do think is marketing operations.
425
:It's like a different side, like
426
:Justin Norris: let's dive into that
and like make it real for a second.
427
:Company level strategy, you know,
we're gonna grow X amount through,
428
:you know, getting new people onto
our platform and we're also gonna
429
:try to increase, existing business by
X or am I like something like that?
430
:Is that what we're thinking about
for those is company level OKRs?
431
:And then in terms of how
marketing supports that?
432
:is that where we start thinking about,
all right, well what are the . the
433
:main channels that we're going to
focus on paid, organic, main programs?
434
:Like how is that where that sort
of thinking starts cascading in?
435
:Darrell Alfonso: I think you're right on.
436
:So I have a couple thoughts on this.
437
:one is for like a
straightforward way to do this.
438
:actually a wonderful framework in
McKinnon's book, he wrote a book
439
:called The Marketing Operations
Handbook, which I recommend to people.
440
:And the framework is really demand
planning framework where you take a look
441
:at the revenue of the company should be.
442
:You know, the new sales
revenue, for example.
443
:And then you find out
marketing's contribution.
444
:What's marketing's contribution?
445
:So then you have a number.
446
:That number then needs to be made
up by, you know, you need a certain
447
:amount of pipeline to make up that
number, a certain amount of leads
448
:to make up that number, and then a
certain amount of programs or campaigns
449
:that you run throughout the year.
450
:So there's this very like
trickle down hierarchy effect
451
:Justin Norris: Yep.
452
:Darrell Alfonso: you can
do, um, with reverse math.
453
:And that's, that's the
planning that I recommend.
454
:I caveat that by saying We're in a
interesting era these days, with P L G and
455
:especially with, companies like mine that
are more of like a marketplace business.
456
:So with a marketplace business, you
have B two B and B two C then, really
457
:interesting, I think for Indeed,
without sharing too much of like
458
:what's going on, Not only do we have
B two B and B two C, but we also
459
:have an enterprise and SS m b motion.
460
:So all of those are very different
and they don't work the same.
461
:Right?
462
:'cause like if a small business
uses indeed, it's fairly simple.
463
:You know what I mean?
464
:You can, a job and put a
credit card in and you're good
465
:Justin Norris: Yeah.
466
:Darrell Alfonso: that is a, almost
like a SS M B P L G type function.
467
:Right.
468
:There's not too much sales assist that you
need, even though there can be, we also
469
:have an enterprise motion where you have,
large companies that are hiring thousands
470
:of employees in a certain time period.
471
:You know, like in a quarter
they'll hire a thousand people.
472
:That's very different game.
473
:Right.
474
:And it requires though sort of
white glove, high touch service
475
:that a sales led motion does.
476
:so while I say that, I wish it could
be as simple as what I just mentioned
477
:in terms of like the framework for,
for planning, in reality, especially
478
:with today, it's very I will
say that it's a lot of fun too.
479
:Like are problems that people
haven't, like, there's nothing
480
:written about how to solve this.
481
:So this is where the strategy comes in.
482
:You know, how do we solve these problems
and how do we, how do we plan for it?
483
:Justin Norris: It's funny
now that you mention it.
484
:About 10 years ago, my first kind of real
startup job, a hiring app they layered
485
:some software and some profiling tools
on top of the job posting piece, but they
486
:partnered with companies like Indeed.
487
:to get their postings out.
488
:So know exactly what you're
talking about with that.
489
:was primarily SS m b focused in the
beginning, although they started to
490
:layer enterprise motion in, is your, is
supporting all of those things together?
491
:And then there's the candidate marketing
side as well, which I, you didn't
492
:mention, but maybe are you thinking
about all those things or are you
493
:really focused just on enterprise play?
494
:Darrell Alfonso: a good portion of my
team is really dedicated to the B two
495
:B, both enterprise and small business.
496
:I think marketing operations lends
itself to that type of marketing and
497
:that to that type of, customer, B two C
in my opinion is a little bit different.
498
:Like the planning is a
little bit different.
499
:The measurement is different.
500
:We do help in those areas.
501
:we partner really closely
with, team that runs campaigns,
502
:our, em job seeker, customers.
503
:um, say type of work is very different.
504
:So the, the large of my team is B two B.
505
:Justin Norris: We've mentioned
your team a few times.
506
:Can you tell us a bit
about how big is indeed?
507
:How big is marketing, how big is marketing
ops, and then do you structure your roles?
508
:Darrell Alfonso: Indeed's
an interesting one.
509
:it's very different
510
:Justin Norris: I.
511
:Darrell Alfonso: my last organization.
512
:like at a w s for example,
I was on the MarTech team.
513
:my team was like the Marketo team
had a large team that really managed
514
:Marketo as a product, but also managed
the way in which marketers use the
515
:platform It's different, Indeed's
about, I dunno, 14 to 15,000 people.
516
:And, the marketing
technology, responsibility.
517
:Act actually falls under a different
team called Business Systems.
518
:Justin Norris: right?
519
:Darrell Alfonso: kind of like a, you
know, most places would call it probably
520
:it, we call it business systems.
521
:Justin Norris: Yeah.
522
:Darrell Alfonso: actually doesn't
manage the team focuses has
523
:like three different, groups.
524
:So have a campaign operations team,
which heavily focuses on email.
525
:have a globalization team, I like to say
that the mission of that team is to expand
526
:marketing efforts and scale marketing's
efforts to many of the different regions.
527
:There's a lot that goes into that.
528
:It's been a really fun journey
for me inheriting that team
529
:'cause it's is a new mu for me.
530
:But a lot of it is around localizing
and translating and adapting the
531
:campaigns and content that we have for
You know, to be culturally relevant
532
:and market relevant for, for customers
533
:Justin Norris: Uh, and
that sits within ops.
534
:It's, it's not a like global service
department for the entire company.
535
:It's specifically a marketing
localization function that you're running.
536
:That's interesting.
537
:Darrell Alfonso: also have an
enablement, group enablement focuses
538
:on MarTech rollouts, MarTech adoption.
539
:campaign processes, optimization, and
then a little bit of reporting too.
540
:So my team is about 13 people and,
support those different groups.
541
:Justin Norris: And so from your point
of view, the business systems team is
542
:actually the, the product managers of
your tools and you are their clients on
543
:behalf of the marketers that you serve.
544
:Is that the right way to think about it?
545
:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, I think so.
546
:Justin Norris: Like, like do you
interface, like if they need a new
547
:feature, like, Hey, we need a new
548
:in enrichment or scoring or something
in Marketo, let's, say, they go you
549
:to business systems or do marketers
interface with business systems directly
550
:Darrell Alfonso: It's a little bit blurry.
551
:I would say that the way it works at my
company is that marketers are the primary
552
:customers of that business systems group.
553
:group is made up of product
managers, and analysts.
554
:so let, let's say for example, there's a
technical or requirement, such as standing
555
:up a tool, integrations, or maybe.
556
:redoing our data strategy that
falls, squarely in their remit.
557
:I think that what's interesting and
it's, it's something that I'm learning
558
:about and and I've also been like,
curious about, whose responsibility is
559
:it to get the most potential out of the
tools and have have the most adoption?
560
:And make sure that the marketers
are doing things in the most
561
:efficient and streamlined way.
562
:If you have a team who's, overarching
objective is to make sure that the tools
563
:are in a ready state for marketers,
Who does enablement fall under?
564
:Who does, uh, empowerment fall under?
565
:And I think right now, you
know, and I have relationship.
566
:With leadership of that team
and we meet on a regular basis.
567
:Right now, I, I would say that
it's, it's split between the two.
568
:It's split between my team
569
:Justin Norris: Interesting.
570
:Darrell Alfonso: and we have great
experience too in MarTech their team
571
:is the one that, has the engineers.
572
:so that's, that's the dynamic
that, that we have it played.
573
:I often think like fast forward, Five, 10
years, and I'm the one that gets to make
574
:the . Hopefully I'm the one that gets to
make these large organizational calls.
575
:I often myself like,
how would I set it up?
576
:Justin Norris: I was just gonna ask that.
577
:Darrell Alfonso: I would
set it up in this way,
578
:Justin Norris: Yeah,
579
:Darrell Alfonso: I will say that we've
established a dynamic that I think is
580
:very collaborative and works for us.
581
:Justin Norris: you took
it just where I was.
582
:gonna go because like pros and
cons, you know, uh, business systems
583
:ownership structure is when I've seen
increasingly in larger companies, You
584
:can see why they would do it that way.
585
:You have one team that owns all
your systems they can manage the
586
:interrelationships between them.
587
:They can be product managers
on behalf of the whole company.
588
:So let's say those are the
arguments or some of them in favor.
589
:The cons of course become, they
then become less responsive to.
590
:Particular groups, do they become more
distant from those groups, less able to
591
:interpret questions, marketing worries
that their needs may go to the back of the
592
:queue because the team also has to service
Salesforce and sales tools and maybe
593
:sales has more power in the organization.
594
:So you've already said, you know, you
wouldn't necessarily set it up that way.
595
:What do you think is the best
way to set it up if you were to
596
:design, enterprise from scratch?
597
:Darrell Alfonso: try to like remove
my own biases, which is like really
598
:difficult, I think the strongest
biases for most of us is to bring to
599
:a company what we're familiar with.
600
:Whether or not it was the
right choice to begin with.
601
:I recognize that my biases is
that the MarTech technology team
602
:should report up into marketing.
603
:'cause I've seen it before and that's
been where most of my experience is.
604
:that there are some benefits to that.
605
:Like I think the alignment
would be incredibly tight.
606
:And I also think That type of
organization attracts technologists
607
:that have affinity for marketing.
608
:You know, that they really enjoy marketing
and whereas you separate it out, think you
609
:may get maybe more general technologists
and engineers that are excellent from
610
:a technical standpoint, but they may
not have an interest in the overarching
611
:that marketing is trying to achieve.
612
:They, they more of just want to
deliver technical excellence.
613
:So that's probably how I would set it up.
614
:I would, I would set it up as, MarTech
leading up into like a C M O or VP
615
:of Digital or something like that.
616
:However, I will say where this
gets tricky is that the larger your
617
:organization is, more development
resources you typically need.
618
:So you need teams of engineers
and product managers, marketers,
619
:Are not the best I would say at
developing that sort of talent.
620
:And you need that talent to be good.
621
:And you need, you need them to develop
best in class solutions for you.
622
:So that, I think, is the downside
of not having developers, engineers,
623
:product managers, reporting up
into like a technical leader.
624
:several layers of technical leadership,
that I think gets into the whole
625
:like organization and management.
626
:how do you manage a large
technical organization?
627
:Are marketers the best people to
do that, like marketing leaders?
628
:I don't know.
629
:I don't think it's impossible,
but I, I recognize the trade-offs
630
:still forming an opinion, I think
on what I would do and I think I
631
:have time before I get there anyway.
632
:Justin Norris: It's an
interesting problem.
633
:have recorded episode
with Sanford Whiteman.
634
:We talk about that problem of, know,
you have really smart developers who
635
:do a really bad job with marketing use
cases because they are, indifferent
636
:to needs of the marketing discipline
that they're serving in that case,
637
:or, kind of looking down a little bit
on the technologies because they're
638
:often client side, like having to do
JavaScript or, know, having to think
639
:about, way that marketing tools interact.
640
:sometimes with with real time web
activity that it's very different
641
:than the way a lot of other tools are.
642
:So it's not question of developer skill
or engineering skill, but there really
643
:is a need for this marketing developer.
644
:But you make a really good point
about, resources also need an
645
:org structure to surround them.
646
:They need peers, they need leadership.
647
:Darrell Alfonso: Yes.
648
:Justin Norris: That's not something that
they'll find often in a marketing team.
649
:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, I mean, it's
the same question, like it's the same
650
:downsides of like, where should the sales
development team sit in marketing or in
651
:Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.
652
:Darrell Alfonso: sales, right?
653
:marketers, me included, think that we
should selfishly want them to report up
654
:into, into marketing, better alignment.
655
:I think it's a good move, but
Many sales development people,
656
:they aspire to be executives.
657
:They aspire to be of sales later on.
658
:you know, you have to find a way
because now that they're not in
659
:sales, you're kind of robbing them
a little bit of that nurturing and
660
:the coaching that typically gets from
like, if you actually sit in a team.
661
:always, there's always trade offs.
662
:Justin Norris: Yeah.
663
:I love that one that you just
described, sales development one.
664
:my own organization, we when I
joined, we had B D R teams, some
665
:reporting into sales, some reporting
into marketing in different places.
666
:Some of them reported into me for a
little while, were hiring a new leader.
667
:In a particular region, and my team's
also responsible for bdr r ops, and
668
:now they all do report into sales.
669
:We have that consistent, which I
think is good for the reasons that
670
:you mentioned where, you know, those,
those BDRs are not gonna grow up and
671
:become marketers most of the time.
672
:They're gonna grow up and become AEs
and account managers and, and they're
673
:gonna move into the revenue org.
674
:But I think the thing that makes
it work at least, is that we have.
675
:Marketers that still view interfacing
with guiding the activities of the B d
676
:R team is very much their responsibility
regardless of, you know, reporting
677
:structure and that sort of thing.
678
:we have those conversations and,
and everyone's very involved.
679
:So I think there's ways of kind of
having your cake and eat it too,
680
:irrespective of how the org is structured.
681
:But it does require
intentionality in that area.
682
:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, I mean I
think that like, it does work.
683
:You know what I mean?
684
:I think the leaders those groups, they
need to care and they need to understand,
685
:Justin Norris: Yep.
686
:Darrell Alfonso: know, like sales
development and sales is a completely
687
:different animal because there's a
lot of like personal motivation I
688
:think at stake and like that needs
to be nurtured that isn't necessarily
689
:present in more technical roles.
690
:there's an interface there.
691
:and I think that there's the same
thing technical talent where aspire
692
:to solve tougher and tougher problems.
693
:you have to balance that with
the need to drive impact.
694
:you can't ignore it.
695
:You can't ignore that.
696
:These are the people's desires, strengths
and talents that need to be cultivated.
697
:So if you have a leader that
can do that, I think it'll work.
698
:oftentimes with many leaders,
we, myself included, we gravitate
699
:toward we what we really like
700
:Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.
701
:Darrell Alfonso: we forget about the
stuff that is, isn't as important to us.
702
:, Justin Norris: I want to ask you just
sort of switching topics completely,
703
:just about building a personal
brand and marketing operations.
704
:I see you as someone who's been.
705
:You know, tremendously
successful with this.
706
:you have upwards of 40,000
followers on LinkedIn.
707
:You're, you know, very
present in the community.
708
:You're doing these, these monthly
marketing huddles, wrote a book.
709
:You teach a class, so it's like
that you're really involved here,
710
:and just curious for your take
on how do you approach this?
711
:Or you just, you love doing this stuff
and it's all happening organically.
712
:Is it a, strategy that you have?
713
:How important is it for people out
there that are kind of like, ah,
714
:should I invest time in doing this?
715
:What is your thought?
716
:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah.
717
:Okay.
718
:Yeah, I'll try to like keep this concise,
'cause I have a lot to say on this topic,
719
:but I will say that, know, I became
recognized for my work kind of early.
720
:I became like a Marketo champion, a little
bit younger maybe than some of the others.
721
:Like not young, young, but
like a little bit younger.
722
:And so I got introduced to that world
of like a thought leader or someone
723
:that people look up to early on.
724
:And as I was like joining the, the group
of like Marketo champions at the time,
725
:I just couldn't help but think like, I
want More than this, like more than just
726
:being able to teach people what the best
practices of Marketo are, or like setting
727
:up, you know, teaching people how to
clean their database and stuff like that.
728
:Like, I wanted to forward industry, like
I wanted to forward our work and I felt
729
:like one of the only ways to do that was,
was to kind of spread out, like, why does
730
:it have to be specific to this platform?
731
:There's so many people that are just
like me using a different system.
732
:you know, so I, I think that was the
first thing of trying to, look at
733
:marketing operations as an industry
rather than just like these individual
734
:pockets of platform enthusiasts.
735
:You know?
736
:So I, so I stepped out and I think
I was like one of the first ones
737
:to start doing that, to start like,
writing about the industry as a whole
738
:and not like, hey, just like platform
specific stuff that you would need.
739
:Justin Norris: Yeah.
740
:Darrell Alfonso: The, the next thing
that I will say, Consistency for
741
:sure, like being, being able to like
consistently teach, is a big part of it.
742
:I would say that some of my success in
personal branding because I caught on a
743
:little bit early social phenomenon of
content that people like, and that is
744
:not something that just comes naturally.
745
:think the first thing that I did, I
remember when Instagram was first a
746
:thing, And like, you know, I don't
really use Instagram today, but when
747
:Instagram was first a thing, I, I started
to post some pictures and I started
748
:to see just by like looking there was
a few things that I did that would
749
:boost the engagement of the photos.
750
:Number one, like it had to be
good and had it had to stand out.
751
:But number two, the social
interactions helped a lot.
752
:if I would interact with others,
would also interact with me.
753
:So I caught that just like, I just like
discovered that even though people were
754
:like, I didn't even mean to, and then
when I'm, when I moved on to LinkedIn, I
755
:followed that same thing because I kind
of knew coming from another platform that,
756
:a lot of the writing for your audience.
757
:Like, you know, they're, coming across
your writing if you don't grab their
758
:attention, they're just gonna ignore it.
759
:And then secondly, this concept
of community is a really big one.
760
:Like you have to engage with others.
761
:that, that pulls people into.
762
:I think that ever get advice that
personal branding is just something
763
:that you, people don't think about
and it just like You get lucky and
764
:you just keep doing it over time,
you'll do, you'll, you'll get it.
765
:I really don't believe that.
766
:I think that there is a lot actually
of science to it, and that if any of
767
:your listeners are interested building
platforms and building followings,
768
:you actually have to study it.
769
:can't just show up every day.
770
:Like I, I, I don't believe
that advice actually.
771
:Justin Norris: Has it helped your career?
772
:Obviously the writing a book, those
things are, are inherently helpful.
773
:But in terms of the efforts that
you've put in, aside from the
774
:personal gratification and all
that sort of intangible stuff, but
775
:just from a career perspective,
do you think it's been important?
776
:Darrell Alfonso: the interesting thing
when I moved to I think when I was at
777
:a w s I was a little bit more private.
778
:It's hard to be private when you're
posting, but like, didn't, I kind
779
:of kept those things separate.
780
:You know, my life at a w s and
then my life as, you know, like a
781
:content creator on, on LinkedIn.
782
:I came to Indeed, I brought it together.
783
:I was not shy about letting people
know that this is what I do and I
784
:got a lot of credibility for that.
785
:up at to the highest levels, you know.
786
:I'm so fortunate, I'll get a note from
my C M O, you know, every now and then
787
:saying, Hey, I read your last post.
788
:It really resonated with me and
789
:Justin Norris: That's awesome.
790
:Darrell Alfonso: I, I am just,
I'm just so grateful to, to be at
791
:a place a, a culture like this.
792
:also people that like accept
the type of work that I do
793
:and, really think highly of it.
794
:I 100% think it did.
795
:I will say the other thing that
it does, it just exposes you to
796
:really smart peers, if you do
that, it saves you a lot of time.
797
:You know, I remember asking you
questions, asking Paul Wilson
798
:questions, asking people like,
you know, like Jess cow questions.
799
:And, they probably would still make
time for me If, you know, I didn't do
800
:all this content creation stuff, but I
like to think that the one, one of the
801
:reasons why I've developed relationships
like that, that have been very, very,
802
:you know, instrumental I think in,
in my work and in the way that I
803
:think, I can't help but think that my
personal brand has a lot to do with it.
804
:Justin Norris: love what you said.
805
:The two things that'll just tag on at
the end that I've observed as well are,
806
:know, sometimes it can be hard to be
heard internally in certain discussions.
807
:And yet if you go out and make a
post on that same thing and it gets
808
:a lot of validation, can actually be
a really powerful way of, persuading
809
:internal audiences as well, which
you, we don't often think about.
810
:We think of like, we're gonna go
out there so I can get to something
811
:else, but actually If you can't get
your voice in, in a meeting, you can
812
:still get it out there on LinkedIn.
813
:and the people will sort of vote
in a way help validate that idea.
814
:And that brings it to the second thing
that I just really like is it is really
815
:a, a marketplace of ideas in many ways.
816
:And I know obviously some people
coming in, they, they have
817
:advantages, they have big audiences.
818
:But if you have something compelling
to say and . and you grab people's
819
:attention, like you said, then,
um, then people kind of can tell
820
:you what resonates with them.
821
:And I just really liked that.
822
:I liked the immediate reminded me of
when I was email marketing, you sent out
823
:a campaign and uh, I was selling things
that people could buy with a credit card.
824
:It's like you can just tell right
away whether it's working or not.
825
:There's something about the
immediacy of that that I really like.
826
:Darrell Alfonso: Absolutely.
827
:I think my last thing I'll say is
like, I think about personal branding
828
:and building a following differently
they, there's just a ton of overlap.
829
:like you can build an, an amazing
personal brand without a following.
830
:As long as people know you and know that
you do great work and they appreciate
831
:the work that you do, you, you can do
that in one-on-one conversations and
832
:many have built great careers from, from
that building a following, in my opinion,
833
:is different there's a lot of perks.
834
:And things like, there's a lot of external
perks that come from the following.
835
:but they are different.
836
:like I think that my personal brand or I
guess following would've been different
837
:if I had just started a blog and then
just wrote these things in a vacuum.
838
:Right, of just the thoughts that I
think that people should know and my
839
:experiences, like, I think it, it would've
been useful to some people, but the
840
:feedback that you get from writing things
and understanding what resonates, that's
841
:what propels it in an upward spiral.
842
:it also changes the way
you think about things too.
843
:So I think that have to recognize that.
844
:You know, that, that the
content that we create, we kind
845
:of create with our audience.
846
:Like it's, it's, it's all,
it's things put together.
847
:it's different than I
think a personal brand.
848
:Justin Norris: That's a
beautiful note to end on.
849
:Darryl, this was super interesting.
850
:We could probably continue for another
hour, but we'll have to chat again.
851
:I really appreciate you.
852
:. Making the time and just thinking through
these things with me you for that.
853
:Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, of course.
854
:Thanks for having me on, Justin.
855
:Anytime.
