Episode 5

full
Published on:

28th Oct 2023

Aligning RevOps with C-Level Priorities - Jen Igartua

Today we're joined by Jen Igartua, a RevOps leader and 10+ year operations consultant.

We discuss her vision of the go-to-market engine as a product, how to ensure the work of RevOps is aligned with C-level priorities, and the importance of focus for enabling deep work.

Jen shares some awesome knowledge here for how RevOps teams can achieve greater impact and how operators can level-up their careers.

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About Today's Guest

Jen Igartua is CEO of Go Nimbly, a revenue operations consultancy for scaling businesses.

From Jen's LinkedIn: "I’m...working with high-growth companies to create a frictionless, human buying experience with RevOps."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jen-igartua/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:02] - Jen’s consulting background. How she helped start Go Nimbly.
  • [02:37] - Definition of RevOps. Metaphor of a business as a film studio, where the goal is to make a movie, GTM teams are actors, and RevOps is the director.
  • [03:56] - How operators can step into this director role. If you’re mid-to-junior level and in a company that doesn’t get RevOps, you likely won’t make a huge impact and need to find another environment. Or it may be more a matter of you needing to improve your skills. These include the ability to say no, having an intake process, and keeping priorities aligned to the C-level.
  • [07:31] - Whether operators have a self-limiting mindset, focused on their craft vs. business impact. Growth mindset is important. A lot of this is new and people are still figuring it out.
  • [08:34] - RevOps as a product and whether the “customer” is the GTM teams or the literal external customer. Jen’s point of view is that we need to understand what RevOps truly brings to the business and to the things the CEO cares about. Sometimes that may be solving for customer needs, but in other times it could be something different (e.g., data readiness in preparation for an IPO). Ultimately we achieve our customer-facing goals via the GTM teams, so we need to care about their experience and happiness.
  • [14:52] - How Go Nimbly interacts with the different GTM teams. Whether RevOps is just sales ops rebranded. How silos form and evolve in companies. People are good at aligning vertically but poor at aligning horizontally.
  • [18:13] - People align themselves based on how power and authority flows in an organization. If the CMO and CRO aren’t aligned, their teams won’t be either. Justin’s experience on the importance of having a unifying force, like a COO, to bring them into alignment. Jen thinks this is ideal, although not something every company has. Ultimately a company is like a complex system. All systems have weaknesses, and so we need to mitigate those weaknesses somehow.
  • [20:22] - Gap-first thinking: how to identify initiatives with the biggest impact. Start with the business gap vs. with ideas in a backlog. When you have your goal, then identify what levers you can pull to reach it. Typically these levers include “3VC” - volume, velocity, value, and conversion. You can identify where your weaknesses are via reporting or through durability testing (aka stress testing). Go ahead and become the customer.
  • [24:32] - Why gap-first thinking is hard. Lack of time for operators to step back and audit their work.
  • [26:13] - The importance of focus at work. Distractions are pervasive. How we can create space for deep work. Completing tasks quickly gives a dopamine hit but doesn’t always yield the impact of deep work.
  • [28:43] - Machine work vs. innovation work. Both are necessary. It’s a great exercise to audit the effort needed to run business as usual. Then you can explain to the business what your capacity is. The innovation work is how we transform the business.
  • [31:11] - Pros and cons of outsourcing RevOps. Companies can dial up skillsets when they need them or manage case work that internal resources may not want to do forever. The importance of having an internal champion at a company that can help connect the dots with their own leadership. The challenge for consultants of context switching. Why Go Nimbly tries to keep consultants on only a few accounts at a time.
  • [36:32] - Jen’s journey growing Go Nimbly. There are people who have figured out professional services firms - important to learn from them.
  • [38:28] - What innovations is Jen seeing in the marketplace? Product-led sales is a major focus. Data is also important. Companies no longer putting every piece of data into Salesforce.

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Transcript
Justin Norris:

Hello everyone and welcome to Rev Ops fm.

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Today we are chatting with Jen Igartua,

CEO of Go Nimbly, which is a rev ops

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consultancy for scaling businesses,

I have consulting background myself

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and my agency experience was much

more marketing operations focused

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and also strongly tech focused.

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And so I was really interested in

speaking to someone who had built

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a consulting model specifically for

revenue operations, and also that

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had a strong business and strategic

emphasis as well as a tech focus.

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And in that frame of mind, I came

across Go Nimbly's website and the

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content about their methodology just

really thoughtful and interesting.

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And so I reached out to Jen and

she was good enough to agree

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to spend some time with me.

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So Jen, welcome to the show.

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I am super excited to chat with you today.

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Jen Igartua: Thank you.

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so fun.

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I think we have a very similar background

because I started off my career as

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a marketing automation consultant

at Bluewolf, which got later bought

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by IBM and my main focus was around

technology, it was only through

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realizing that whatever I did in the

marketing automation platform, it didn't

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matter if I didn't really think about

what would happen in the CRM and how

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they might consume the information.

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Like, I can change my lead scoring

program all day long, but I don't get

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sales to work my leads, who cares?

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I had that aha moment pretty early on.

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so then I got really obsessed with

sales and marketing alignment.

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And why would these two teams that are so

aligned the ones at each other's throats,

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like aren't we just mad at finance?

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And then that's how it

led us to start Go Nimbly.

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Our original tagline was unifying

the business stack before we had the

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language around revenue operations.

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And you know, we would focus on silos

and tech silos, like things that

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were keeping the systems from working

together then elevated that into process

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silos and people silos and everything

that it takes, these teams to work.

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I've started using the language

that I think, helps a lot of.

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' cause I think revenue

operations gets a little fuzzy.

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everybody's talking about it and

you talk about something too much.

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It becomes annoying I

don't want that to happen.

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Is that, you know, ultimately we're

trying to unify the go-to-market teams.

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I could rebrand this term, I might

call it go to market operations.

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That's our focus.

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It's how do I make them super successful

how do I make them have these incredible

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peak experiences with our customers so

we can maximize the amount of money,

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so we can do more with less reps.

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All that good stuff that

operational focus does.

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Justin Norris: Precisely as you

said, because terms are generally

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very fuzzy, very impenetrable.

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There's no, universal definitions in

our field what rev ops means to you.

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And I've heard unifying

the go-to market teams.

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And then , the second to that, to me

is kinda like, well , in what ways?

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Where does the mandate start and stop

from your point of view For Rev ops.

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Jen Igartua: Yeah.

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Such a good question.

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So if I can A-to-C that question,

I'll just give a metaphor.

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it's worked out, especially for teams

that are feeling like everybody's

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got a different definition.

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Ultimately, if our company was making

a movie and that's the outcome, right?

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We want a really wonderful

movie that kills it.

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At the box office is an

incredible experience.

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We win all the awards.

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It's the best.

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Our market team are our actors.

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And as revenue operators, we wanna

make sure that they have all the tools,

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the enablement, all the scripts, you

know, the setup, everything that they

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need to show up on set and kill it.

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And, you know, ideally

we're the directors.

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I.

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Some rev ops teams might not be there yet.

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You know, we might just be printing

out scripts and hoping for the best,

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and we might not have everything,

you know, designed and we might not

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be, quite frankly, stepping up to

the promise of revenue operations.

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But if we were, we would be creating

really incredible environment this

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really great movie to be made.

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we would have a strategic

say in that, right?

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Like, the directors are not

just, orders from the actors.

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Like we're truly a partnership.

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Justin Norris: I love it and I

also love speaking in metaphors so.

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This is right, up my alley.

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I agree with everything you've said.

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I think the tension that I've often

seen either in environments that I've

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worked in clients or just in speaking

to peers out in the marketplace is maybe

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rev ops people see themselves or aspire

to be in that director role often.

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They're not often, they're in

the worst case scenario, they're

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the people like bringing the

coffee and lunch to, actors and.

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Maybe sometimes somewhere in

the middle, like assistant

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producer or something like that.

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And so how have you seen with your

clients helping them step into those

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shoes and guiding that change if

it is a change for those companies?

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Jen Igartua: Oh my gosh, this

is one of my favorite questions.

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let me take it in, in two angles because

there's one, the maturity of the person

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and where you are in your career and

what you want, and then there's like

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the maturity of the function, for lack

of a better word, within a company.

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And I think at the individual

level, here's the, aspiration

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that everyone should have.

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people that are currently working in

revenue operations teams, if you are

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at a company that is really pushing

the boundaries, growing and doing well,

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like you are set up to be the next CRO.

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, if you are that person that's

aspiring to do that, you are in a

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good place you're really gaining

all the skills that it takes.

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not a lot of great CROs out there.

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It's just, it's new.

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We're learning and there's a lot

that, to, um, together for that.

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the, opportunity's there.

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if I'm an individual that

is just making coffee.

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I know I've got the

skills to do more, right?

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You might just be at the level

of coffee, but you're not right.

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If you are someone that I know, I can

do more, they're just not listening

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or I'm, everything's on fire.

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There's so much tech debt.

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I don't have the space.

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don't have the space to do deep work.

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you're that person, you have to

sort of analyze where you're at

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and where the business is at.

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If you are working at a company

that doesn't quote unquote, get

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revenue operations, and you are

being told that like as a team, you

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have to, convince everybody of your

value, et cetera, that's so hard.

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Especially if you're a mid to junior

level, you're not gonna probably make

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a huge impact there and your job's

probably not going to change unless

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there's Some bigger thing going on that,

that you have hope in, in that front,

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you leave if you do see the light, if

like, if the organization does care.

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And it's just that you are transitioning,

you're on this kind of journey, there's

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skills that that team needs to do.

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Some of the basic ones like are,

do you have, do you have the

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authority and ability to say no?

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Do you actually have an intake process?

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Like, are things coming through if they're

urgent in something like a case if it's

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a project, is there an intake process

where the whole business looks at it

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and, and decides whether or not to do it?

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Um, and then the big one is, is

your work and the work coming to

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your desk actually aligned what the

c-level and the executives care about.

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Because if it's not like, I think

we've all been at a place where

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we've gotten a lot of things right?

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Like all of a sudden I could have

a week where I've got 20 requests

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and I don't get to five of them.

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Probably had the experience where like

maybe no one follows up on those five.

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It's like because urgency

feels that way, right?

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And it's not always important

and it's really hard to find the

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like urgent, not important stuff.

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And having that tracked really

understanding and ability to say

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no, knowing how you're aligned to

what the executives care about,

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essentially start to give you space.

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if you're somebody with good

skills who's being pointed at the

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wrong place, you probably just

don't have the space to say no.

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And the space to

prioritize the right work.

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Justin Norris: I agree completely.

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If the limitations being placed on you

are the company and the company dynamics,

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is that a battle you wanna fight?

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Sometimes it is.

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Maybe there could be a scenario where

that's gratifying, but I agree.

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Ultimately, sometimes you

have to pick a different lane.

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I think sometimes there is a

self-limiting mindset that can happen.

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kind of refine ourselves into

craftspeople almost I want things

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to be scalable and well documented

and beautiful, but does it work?

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Is it having a revenue impact?

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You know, well that's marketing's

problem, or that sales problem.

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I've seen those attitudes expressed.

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I think they are harmful to our discipline

To me, it seems, part of the crux is

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you actually caring about the revenue

impact of the work that you're doing

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and then making decisions accordingly

versus just, you know, playing a

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kind of game of prioritization with

people that are asking you for things.

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Jen Igartua: Yeah, I mean, you're

touching on a lot of things like growth

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mindset is definitely important, right?

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And making sure that you're somebody who

is, It's not necessarily a confidence, but

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knowing that people don't have it figured

out, like we talk about revenue operations

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or rev ops as we're comparing ourselves

to these rock stars that just know it all.

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A lot of this is new and a lot of this

is figuring it out and, believing in

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yourself that you can apply yourself

to, figure it out or get yourself

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the skill sets you need or get

yourself the support that you need.

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there's definitely that, that's,

that's getting into individual's way.

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Justin Norris: So I want to turn to, a

concept that is super interesting to me.

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I know you did, a webinar yesterday

with about idea of Rev ops as a product.

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I've came to this idea a while ago

as well, based on my first experience

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in rev ops before the term existed,

but I was basically the Marketo

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admin and I was the Salesforce admin.

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So I was kind of doing all the things I

kind close to the product management team.

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I was like, oh, this is really similar.

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Like, have these teams.

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They have requirements, they want

features, and I can deliver on those

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features, and I'm making them super

happy and know, this is a great feeling.

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That was sort of my

entryway into operations.

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I've seen you on LinkedIn talking

about this point , who then is

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the customer for the product?

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Is it the, the GTM teams?

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Like, have needs, we fulfill

those needs and then enable

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them to do their best work?

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Or are we still thinking

externally about the customer?

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I've struggled with this notion 'cause I

think there's probably an element of both.

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I want to hear about your

evolution on this point and

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what you think about it now.

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Jen Igartua: Totally, and I, I've

actually kind of, I don't know if changed

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my mind is, but had a reality check.

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If nothing more.

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So it's really easy to sit, especially as

a consultant, we build frameworks, right?

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And best practices and what we should

do and what it should look like.

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it's very easy to sort of sit on the

sidelines and be, um, someone that says,

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Hey, you're here to maximize revenue.

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You care only about the customer and

the customer experience, and you have

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to align yourself with that and become

this really strategic function and say no

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to, you know, things that don't matter.

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What it doesn't, take into

consideration is your users are

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still the go-to-market team.

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Like they're the ones that

are adopting your technology.

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They're the ones that are, going

to either do the work the way

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that you want them to or not.

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the ones that if it's very

frustrating or confusing, aren't

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inputting data in a clean way and

it's causing you problems later on.

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And so I've started to switch my tune

a little bit and realize that actually

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enabling and Maximizing the experience.

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If your go to market team also in turn

create a really great customer experience.

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my outcome is still the same.

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Like I'm still aligned to the

things that the CEO cares about.

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I'm still aligned to what

my customer cares about.

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I'm still digging for the biggest

gaps and the biggest places

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that I can, maximize revenue.

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I can do that through

the Go-to-market team.

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I can care about their, frankly, their

happiness, their ability to adopt

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their biggest problems, the things

that are getting in the way of them.

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Because if I can open those doors

and make that better, I'm essentially

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them space to be better salespeople.

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I'm still after the same outcome, but I am

now prioritizing the employee experience

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or the go-to-market experience more.

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And that's a recent change.

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I've, done some stints within rev ops

teams and realizing how important it is.

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Justin Norris: It's so funny 'cause

in, in some ways my mind has, traversed

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the opposite path I started out

really focused on these are the users.

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They're responsible for

delivering these results.

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We're responsible for understanding

their needs and delivering against them.

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And then I think something that,

shifted my mind a bit is in my current

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organization, operations has a much

stronger leadership role than in

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other organizations I've worked in.

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And there's a real expectation

that Ops is a coach, there's a

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constructive tension between ops

and the teams that they support to

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challenge results, to the way that

we're doing things, I'm not suggesting

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is, um, excluded by your definition.

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But,

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is it kind of a meat in

the middle sort of thing?

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By, by which, I mean, let's say

marketing wants to do something and

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it's like, this just doesn't make sense.

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Like the strategy's no good.

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I don't think it's gonna work.

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Do we still deliver on it?

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Do or do we push back?

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Jen Igartua: Yeah, I mean,

you should push back, right?

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Like at the end of the day,

responsibility is to align with the

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company, more than your department.

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And that's hard to do.

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so yeah, if you're seeing that

somebody's giving you a request

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for something that isn't.

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Going to create any impact.

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You need to raise that to your

original question of like, is it both?

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It it is, I like to look at

other companies and see what's

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their messaging and, and.

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Ultimately, especially if we're thinking

about the steal like an artist thought

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process, which is what can we take from

product teams that they do really well?

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Or what can we take from engineering

teams that they do really well?

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They've been around longer than we

have, and if we think about any company

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and you go to their website and you

look at what their tagline is, right?

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essentially what what their

purpose is, why they exist.

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They're not going to give you features

and they're not going to talk about.

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as a user and what they're

enabling you to do.

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They're not gonna say, I'm

gonna create seamless, you

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know, experience for you always.

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have a few up here actually.

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I'm looking at like Zendesk, it's

unlock the power of customer experience.

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for Panda Doc, they're like,

maximize revenue for Apollo.

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It's find and convert the perfect lead.

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so they, they know what their

outcome is, they know what their

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value is and, and why they exist.

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And for revenue operations, it's similar.

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Like we don't exist to make

the salesperson's job easier.

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Nobody hired us to say, Hey, the

reps their job's too hard and

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we want them to do it faster.

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They're saying this is a strategic

function that's gonna make us more money

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it could be increased productivity,

but it's got a different outcome.

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It might be that we're moving

towards being a profitable company,

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you might be doing scale work that

I call, like you might not even be

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thinking about the customer that much.

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And, and this is, an interesting

take if company is aligned to

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a different inflection point.

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So imagine your company's

gonna IPO in a year.

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Your work is probably

gonna be all IPO work.

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You're unlikely to be thinking much

about the customer in that year because

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you need to make sure all your revenue

data is auditable and we can get there.

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And that's me aligning

myself to the C level.

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so.

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My point is we have to know

what the purpose of our team is.

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Like, why were we hired?

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Why do we exist?

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Is it to get to the next

inflection point with confidence?

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Is it to superpower your go-to-market

team to close bigger deals faster?

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Is it to delight our customers,

create a seamless experience

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from lead to renewal in order to,

maximize more money from them.

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It's having that clarity.

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And that will align your work.

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And then ultimately, in order to get

there, it's my belief that you have

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to make the go-to-market processes.

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Really simple.

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It allows me to onboard people faster.

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It will increase, you know,

each person's carry capacity.

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It will give me valid data to

do more interesting insights.

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And so it's through

them get a lot of benefit.

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Justin Norris: That makes

a whole lot of sense.

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When you put it that way, and it's true.

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I guess there is a time where you

could think about the customer

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experience when actually at that

phase of the business they need you

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to be thinking about something else

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Jen Igartua: Yeah, and I

think that's my big takeaway.

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It's like our function is still Supposed

to be making value for the company

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and we need to know what the company

wants to do then we can do that job.

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Justin Norris: This is a tangential

question, but I'm just curious,

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to what extent does Go Nimbly

interact with the marketing

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function as well as sales and cs?

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Jen Igartua: Oh, tons.

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I would probably say order, and this

is like go nimbly, but probably any

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rev ops team, the order in which.

316

:

You start doing the work and then the

order in which it gets prioritized, it's

317

:

typically sales, marketing, and then css.

318

:

CS does a little bit of

the redheaded stepchild.

319

:

I love redheads, but where the money is.

320

:

That's like the, ultimately the amount of

money that's spent in operations for each

321

:

of them and how the work gets prioritized.

322

:

But we'll work with all three, CSS is

getting more attention now, and they are

323

:

getting more operational projects and more

integrated, but they're the most siloed.

324

:

Justin Norris: Part of the driver for

that question is, you've maybe seen

325

:

the meme, I think it's a Scooby-Doo

meme where they pull the mask off the

326

:

person and in the first frame it's like

rev ops, and then you pull the mask off

327

:

and it's like sales ops, you know, it's

just, just kind of sales ops rebranded.

328

:

So So it sounds like the people

that you're attracting are ready

329

:

for and willing to have that

point of view on their operations.

330

:

Jen Igartua: Yeah.

331

:

And it comes in

different, maturity levels.

332

:

And actually it can change during

life of a company you start out,

333

:

if you are a early stage company,

don't have to worry about this so

334

:

much because you're a team of one.

335

:

Like you are Un siloed because

you're one person you can

336

:

prioritize the most, important work.

337

:

You don't have to communicate

with a bunch of different teams in

338

:

order for everyone to be aligned.

339

:

And it's, as you get bigger these

silos will start to get created and

340

:

they're actually perfectly normal and

actually a sign of success in some ways.

341

:

You only get silos when

you a bunch of people.

342

:

When you have new teams getting created,

when you start to get specialists in

343

:

place, you know, it's, it's really outcome

of fast growth humans are very good at

344

:

aligning vertically with their teams.

345

:

Like you don't usually say, oh,

the Business analysts are siloed

346

:

with the directors, like we're very

good at aligning within our teams.

347

:

We're just bad across them.

348

:

And so as soon as you start

to pop into a lot of different

349

:

teams, you'll start to feel it.

350

:

And this can happen multiple times.

351

:

You can bring them back together

and it will happen again.

352

:

Because again, humans just know how

to work better in smaller groups

353

:

and vertically they know how to

align themselves to their boss.

354

:

So this is gonna continue

happening and you have to fight it.

355

:

There's different ways in which a great

revenue operations team will, show itself.

356

:

I think we talk a lot about the org chart.

357

:

It's like, Hey, these teams.

358

:

Need to be rolling up to the same

person and to each other and aligned.

359

:

But I don't find that these

teams don't talk to each other.

360

:

It's not that I go to a

company and go, wow, you guys

361

:

aren't talking to each other.

362

:

It's typically from something else.

363

:

It's, there's a lot of

roadblocks in your way.

364

:

Whether it might be right from the

top, there's not enough direction.

365

:

We don't know how to prioritize.

366

:

might be that there's a lot

of technology silos, even like

367

:

our platforms aren't connected.

368

:

The data's not flowing into the right

places, a slew of other things, and

369

:

so Important to try to pull those

things apart and really understand, do

370

:

I have a problem where I'm not aligned

with marketing ops and sales ops?

371

:

Like, are we not talking?

372

:

Is that like really what's going on?

373

:

Or do we not, are we not

prioritizing the same things?

374

:

'cause you can fix things.

375

:

I'm, I'm a big proponent that like,

yeah, an org chart gives you clarity,

376

:

but that's not what we're doing here.

377

:

Justin Norris: People, like you said, they

tend to orient themselves to their boss.

378

:

It's kind of about , how power and

authority flows in the organization.

379

:

If we wanna look at it like that.

380

:

And if I diagnose causes of alignment

that I've experienced, Yeah.

381

:

Again, it's not necessarily, 'cause

we're not talking, you can talk, but

382

:

Jen Igartua: Right,

383

:

Justin Norris: if sales ops is getting

marching orders from a sales leader

384

:

and they want to do one thing and

marketing ops getting marching orders,

385

:

the marketing leader wants to do another

thing and there's no unifying force

386

:

I find in our company our COO is a

unifying force, and even though I don't

387

:

actually report to him or the only ops

team that reports into a functional unit,

388

:

there's still a really thick dotted line.

389

:

And that provides that someone who can

come in and be like, hold on a sec.

390

:

Like, let's bring everything together.

391

:

Let's doing X, start doing y.

392

:

Is that the missing piece or a

missing piece in your point of view?

393

:

Like some someone or some function

that can bring it together?

394

:

Jen Igartua: Yeah, that's ideal.

395

:

And it's not something that

everybody has, but that's one

396

:

way to mitigate that problem.

397

:

And, done a lot of reading

on systems thinking.

398

:

And one of the things that has stayed

with me is every system has its downfall.

399

:

Like it does not matter,

especially complicated, right?

400

:

Like solutions are different than systems.

401

:

Like a solution is I need this number

to go in and this number to come out.

402

:

And it always does the same thing.

403

:

When you're with people, it

becomes this like complex you

404

:

need a system to grow with it.

405

:

And it's.

406

:

It's gonna have failure points

because it's very complicated.

407

:

And so when we talk about organizing

teams and aligning them and their workflow

408

:

and how they meet, and how they convene

and how they learn, it's very complex.

409

:

And so what you need to do is figure out

, what's my failure point across my team?

410

:

And then how can I come up

with strategies to mitigate it?

411

:

And the one that you just said,

which is we have two bosses that

412

:

are giving different marching

orders to two different teams.

413

:

And those teams are gonna do what they do

and sometimes they're against each other.

414

:

Then, yeah.

415

:

We need those two bosses to have a better

relationship and align together, or they

416

:

need to roll up to somebody else that's

making those marching orders, right?

417

:

we're mitigating a problem that we've

got and creating a system around it.

418

:

And there's a lot of ways to slice it

when we talk about our best practice.

419

:

Yeah.

420

:

We want that singular leader because

it's one of the easiest ways to solve it.

421

:

Justin Norris: I have to get your,

systems thinking reading list we can

422

:

share it 'cause it's a subject of inter.

423

:

To me too.

424

:

I'm gonna switch topics you talked

about concept of, of durability

425

:

testing and three VC and.

426

:

Where it's of interest to me is it speaks

to the point of what should we do?

427

:

You know, sometimes

there's a twin problem.

428

:

You have so many requests

and so many fires.

429

:

And we always say we'd like

some time to do strategic work.

430

:

And they're like, all right,

what strategic work should we do?

431

:

And it's like, how do I actually be sure

that I'm doing the right things and not

432

:

just something that's interesting to me?

433

:

And this seems to be one,

one answer to that problem.

434

:

So maybe you can talk us

through that framework.

435

:

Jen Igartua: that's all part of gap.

436

:

First thinking.

437

:

And so this is what's a funny thing

that happens with operations teams.

438

:

you already have a

backlog somewhere, right?

439

:

You've got a, a bunch of

requests that have come in ideas.

440

:

You have a bunch of problems you've found.

441

:

Maybe it lives in a Google sheet.

442

:

Maybe you've got a tool,

maybe it's in your notepad.

443

:

And typically when a team goes

and says, Hey, we need a roadmap

444

:

or, or we need to plan for next

quarter, they'll pull up that list.

445

:

And then the team will brainstorm

more ideas and then they'll

446

:

create an even bigger list.

447

:

Which is crazy 'cause you

already had so much work.

448

:

But okay, let's brainstorm more work.

449

:

'cause maybe we missed something and then

we'll give it some sort of framework.

450

:

Maybe we'll do the urgent versus

important framework, or we'll do impact

451

:

versus effort and we'll figure out

what we need to work on and we'll put

452

:

it, against some months or quarters

and Here we have what we've worked on.

453

:

The problem with that is it's starting

with like ideas and, Features and

454

:

work, it's not talking about the

gap or the problem or the inflection

455

:

point that we're going after.

456

:

So I think one of the things that any

team can do, like literally tomorrow

457

:

especially if you're starting to

plan for next year, is the opposite.

458

:

Like with being like, okay.

459

:

What's the outcome?

460

:

Are we doubling our sales

team by next quarter?

461

:

are we going to IPO, we

have new products launching?

462

:

And find out what these like big

milestones or outcomes are going to be?

463

:

then what's getting in our way that work?

464

:

that needs to be prioritized first.

465

:

Having that clarity gives you an

ability to look at something and be

466

:

like, well, that's not important.

467

:

I'm not going to do that work.

468

:

without it, you end up prioritizing things

that you are speculating will have impact.

469

:

like impact on what?

470

:

If you don't have the outcome that

you are going after, really clear the

471

:

ideas of durability testing in three

VC are ways to find, like, if somebody

472

:

just said, Hey, our goal is to increase

conversion from MQL to, pipeline,

473

:

whatever you wanna call it, SQL, need

to get X number of new logos, might be.

474

:

I might not know what levers to pull.

475

:

I might be like kind of

like a deer in headlights.

476

:

At that point.

477

:

You should stress test your team.

478

:

You should pull reports and

try to figure out three.

479

:

VC is just, if you're ever

stuck reporting, it's volume,

480

:

value, velocity, and conversion.

481

:

They're really the four

things that you can do.

482

:

You can the value of opportunities

that you close, that go up market.

483

:

Sell more can increase the

velocity, do it faster.

484

:

You can increase the conversion,

the number that go, Or

485

:

you can do more of them.

486

:

and so those are really the four

levels that will allow you to

487

:

create more qualified pipeline.

488

:

And I have to figure out which one

of those is getting in the way.

489

:

I can do that through reporting, or

if I'm just not sure I can do that by

490

:

putting myself in the customer's shoes.

491

:

I can submit a form and try to figure out

if it takes forever for someone to call

492

:

me, I can do a rep ride and sit with them.

493

:

I can interview customers, and that's

really the product manager mindset

494

:

of saying, I'm gonna get as close

to my customer and my outcome to

495

:

figure out how to solve this problem,

opposed to taking feature requests

496

:

and saying yes to what my bosses say.

497

:

Justin Norris: And so those things

that you just described, are those

498

:

examples of durability tests within

your framework, durability in the sense

499

:

of , you try to experience a part of

the process and see how durable it is.

500

:

Does it hold up to scrutiny?

501

:

Is that what it means?

502

:

Jen Igartua: I also use the word

stress testing, We've all had

503

:

a moment where we're like, oh

crap, our form wasn't working.

504

:

or, wow, the routing was broken.

505

:

It's a really easy way.

506

:

Just go and submit information and

see it go all the way through to

507

:

feel confident that your system

is working how it's intended.

508

:

There's also things that we can

take from engineering teams.

509

:

If unit tests that run through the

experience that you're expecting, you

510

:

know, all the time to find errors.

511

:

There's automated ways to do this, if

you have a moment where you're thinking

512

:

about your customer experience,

you're like, I don't really know, go

513

:

ahead and just become the customer.

514

:

Justin Norris: The notion of gap first

thinking is very elegant and I think

515

:

simple and intuitively correct It

does seem difficult in some cases to

516

:

implement and practice may, I don't

know if that's been your experience

517

:

or not, but seen it in myself.

518

:

I've seen it in others.

519

:

it's just we become

enamored of shiny objects.

520

:

Maybe it's like you said, it's

the overwhelm and you just start

521

:

thinking about how to manage your

stakeholders instead of zooming back

522

:

out and just focusing on the business.

523

:

Why is that mindset hard?

524

:

Jen Igartua: It's a hundred percent hard.

525

:

And I will admittedly say that, the

idea that operators have time to step

526

:

back and audit their work all the

time, like it's not realistic and

527

:

I don't claim that it's realistic.

528

:

the times when I've seen companies do that

kind of work really at the place where

529

:

there's a hypothesis, A best practice

would be that we have the automation

530

:

and the bandwidth to be stress testing

our, essentially our product, quote

531

:

unquote, if we're building a Go-to-market

platform together, but we don't.

532

:

And so instead, typically what happens is

you have a theory, there's a gap that you

533

:

expect, like maybe you've actually seen

it a little bit broken, you're like, wow,

534

:

this lead got routed to the wrong place.

535

:

You're essentially stress

testing to figure it out when

536

:

you're auditing that piece.

537

:

It'd be great if we could

do it at a broader space.

538

:

And I see it usually surrounding a

project or an initiative as opposed

539

:

to what I would love to do, which is

like, have it happen all the time.

540

:

if you're hearing this and going, we're

not doing that, most people aren't.

541

:

It's okay.

542

:

it's a best practice that is quite

frankly, really hard to reach.

543

:

But you can incorporate it

when you're doing projects

544

:

or again, have a hypothesis.

545

:

the difficulty that I think We have, and

this is a little bit less rev ops and more

546

:

humans and, knowledge workers, I'm very

passionate about finding focus at work.

547

:

Like what does it mean to do deep work

and create An environment where I can

548

:

do that, because where we are living

right now, of us are hopping on our email

549

:

and we have a bunch of email and we're

getting slack pings all day, and we're

550

:

addicted to our devices and Slack and

iMessage and whatever it is, the point

551

:

where there's something ridiculous.

552

:

Like we switch tabs like every 17 seconds.

553

:

I don't know if you've ever experienced

where you're like writing something

554

:

and then all of a sudden you're

like, I'm gonna go check Slack

555

:

real quick, and all of a sudden

you're in a rabbit hole of Slack.

556

:

Justin Norris: Yep.

557

:

Jen Igartua: That's the, I think one of

the biggest things, impeding knowledge

558

:

workers from doing meaningful work.

559

:

You can't do meaningful work 15

minutes at a time, and so how

560

:

do you create an environment?

561

:

For you and your employees and your

team to have the space to do deep work.

562

:

Engineers really protect

their time, right?

563

:

They protect their bandwidth,

and they protect their meeting

564

:

time because know this.

565

:

an organization called.

566

:

Cave day.org.

567

:

that's a big thing that they talk about

is how do we change our relationship

568

:

with work so that we can create

space for ourselves to do deep work.

569

:

of our clients clockwise also has

automation for your calendar to move

570

:

your meetings so that you have more

focus blocks and can do that deep work.

571

:

that's one of the biggest

things that's impeding revenue

572

:

operators from doing meaningful.

573

:

Work and investigative work and

finding the why and finding the gap

574

:

and being really confident that the

work that they're doing important

575

:

work is 'cause it's impossible

to do minutes between meetings.

576

:

Justin Norris: I think

everyone can agree with that.

577

:

It's so true.

578

:

And even my organization,

we really prioritize that.

579

:

And We try to be low meeting, not

no meeting, that's impossible, but

580

:

low meeting then it it can be hard.

581

:

And it's why I often find

I do my best work at night.

582

:

Which, you know, not everyone wants

to be working at night, but I'll

583

:

often, you work out in the afternoon

when my brain is tired and catch up

584

:

a bit at night and nobody's around.

585

:

And it's this magical time where

all of a sudden can happen and

586

:

you're not getting interrupted.

587

:

that is the magic that we

need to bring into the day.

588

:

Jen Igartua: also interesting 'cause we do

it to ourselves I started going nimbly.

589

:

I was doing the 60 hour weeks right and

just throwing myself at every problem.

590

:

I had to kind of realize that most of the

time there's not a panic or an urgency

591

:

, or an actual bug that is impeding work.

592

:

Most of the time somebody just wants a

different report or a quick feature, and

593

:

we're jumping on it because it feels good.

594

:

It feels good for me to be like,

yeah, I added that lead source.

595

:

You're all set.

596

:

they're happy.

597

:

You're happy, you got something done and

you got a dopamine hit you don't get the

598

:

same dopamine hit from doing hard work.

599

:

don't get that same thing from doing

something that takes a long time so

600

:

we have to start prioritizing and,

wanting to feel, the high that you

601

:

get from focus, right, from like

flow state and trying to create more

602

:

space for that and prioritize that.

603

:

Justin Norris: I see on your

website you use the terms machine

604

:

work versus innovation work.

605

:

Good friend of mine, Paul Wilson,

he talks about the same thing.

606

:

He uses term run the business

versus change the business.

607

:

to the, the thing,, but

you need both, obviously.

608

:

Like you need . , where you're doing

and you're operating the machine

609

:

that you've built, and then you

need where you're disrupting and

610

:

changing and implementing, how do you

find that balance gets established?

611

:

Where do you find the right line, within

a team or within an individual's time?

612

:

Jen Igartua: So machine work,

or business as usual work.

613

:

And I actually think this is a

really great exercise to do and

614

:

I really, I think we can, right?

615

:

Sometimes we talk about these

frameworks and these ideals and

616

:

it's really hard to get there.

617

:

But I think this one has a lot of value.

618

:

You'll learn a lot from your team

and you'll be able to have insights

619

:

to change your team here, which is.

620

:

How do you know what it

takes to run the business?

621

:

What is this business as usual, all the

work that you have to get done within

622

:

a quarter, all the support that your

team needs to just get their work done?

623

:

you quantify that so that you know

how, how expensive is it to run

624

:

the business and what kind of team

do you need in order to do that?

625

:

Because it's a huge expectation

setting for the company to say, Hey,

626

:

it takes me two and a half people.

627

:

$300,000 to like run the team without

any new features or innovation.

628

:

I need to know that so that when

I get asked, I can go, well, I

629

:

can't because I can't deprioritize

the business as usual work.

630

:

That's machine work.

631

:

what keeps our sellers selling.

632

:

That's the, you know,

quarterly reviews I have to do.

633

:

That's the planning

meetings I have to go to.

634

:

That's all the cases we have to get done.

635

:

Whatever, you know, your cadence is,

there's stuff you're doing daily,

636

:

weekly, monthly, that you can, define

and, and it a really rough scope.

637

:

Don't overdo it.

638

:

You can just be like, this takes

one week, one day, one month.

639

:

that's gonna help you figure out

the shape of your organization.

640

:

tag each of those kinds of

work with how senior those are.

641

:

Is that something an analyst can

do or do you need some, you know,

642

:

strategic resource or senior resource

or specialist to get it done?

643

:

And then on the other side,

it's the innovation work that.

644

:

hear a lot of teams feel like they

can't get to, and that's the new

645

:

features, for lack of a better word.

646

:

That's us doing the work that it

takes to transform your business.

647

:

It might be identified that renewals

and renewal management in a really

648

:

bad place, so it's automating renewal

creation, bringing in churn signals,

649

:

like it's the fun work and you need.

650

:

Have your business as usual work covered

so that you have space to do that.

651

:

Justin Norris: You may have biased

answer to this question, but

652

:

wanna talk about outsourcing rev

ops or bringing on agency support?

653

:

I'm curious the pros

and cons that you see.

654

:

Jen Igartua: I have a somewhat

biased answer, but it comes

655

:

under my understanding that I'm

most successful with customers

656

:

that have rev ops leadership.

657

:

It's harder for, an outside consultant

to come in and enact a lot of change

658

:

and enact a lot of cultural change

without at least the person that also

659

:

cares and is shepherding you through it.

660

:

I often advise that that person exists.

661

:

And I believe in this role.

662

:

I believe in this function.

663

:

I believe companies should invest in it.

664

:

So I'm somewhat biased because I don't

typically, especially for a mid-size

665

:

company, we work with larger companies.

666

:

Maybe at a Series A, might

outsource the whole function for

667

:

now, but you will hire for it.

668

:

by no means am I saying

outsource the whole thing.

669

:

a lot of our clients use

us in very different ways.

670

:

So on one front they might use us

for a big project that's a spike.

671

:

So they're not gonna hire to

implement Service Cloud, they're

672

:

not gonna hire two and a half people

for six months to get it done.

673

:

And so that might be something

that comes to us and says, Hey,

674

:

spin up a team help get this done?

675

:

So those are pretty easy.

676

:

The reason why you might do it, the

pro, is you don't have to hire and

677

:

fire You know, it's a one-time project.

678

:

It's, it takes specialty.

679

:

So you don't need that skillset forever.

680

:

don't need three people

that know Service Cloud.

681

:

I kind of just need half.

682

:

And so from that front, it

gives you that flexibility.

683

:

We also have clients of ours that

use us for work they don't wanna do.

684

:

So one of the things that we've been

talking about, the pain of revenue

685

:

operations is you're stuck with cases

,and that work, that At some point

686

:

burns you out, you can outsource that.

687

:

So a lot of our customers have us do a

lot of their frontline, a lot of their

688

:

cases, and we escalate the ones that

need a project or need extra hands.

689

:

But we're that first line of defense.

690

:

And the of doing that is don't have

an organization large enough somebody

691

:

that's in that analyst position has

a place to get promoted and grow.

692

:

They're going to get sick

of work in 12 to 18 months.

693

:

It's kind of similar to

like the SDR problem.

694

:

they're gonna get bored and leave

and then you're gonna lose all

695

:

this knowledge and capability.

696

:

So sometimes it's like the work that

your team doesn't wanna do and that

697

:

you don't have a career path for.

698

:

And then there's obviously

expertise, right?

699

:

You just don't have those

kinds of skill sets.

700

:

You want flexibility.

701

:

You have a projects that need marketing

ops and sales ops and engineering and

702

:

architecture and project management.

703

:

So you can hire a firm has all

those skill sets you can be swapping

704

:

resources throughout the year.

705

:

biggest reason is,, flexibility on that

front or expertise that you don't have.

706

:

Justin Norris: My experience with

respect to needing an internal

707

:

leader has been identical to yours.

708

:

I wouldn't say the word impossible, but

I would say it's very difficult to be

709

:

successful if you don't have someone.

710

:

Almost like a champion in a sales cycle.

711

:

Someone who, you're still

working for them, but they're

712

:

also working to sell other people

in the company on your behalf.

713

:

In that case, and in this case, it's

kind of like they're translating

714

:

the CRO or the cmo, or they're

herding the cats internally.

715

:

Things that you're not necessarily

very well equipped to do a c-suite

716

:

leader that maybe just doesn't

have a lot of time for you.

717

:

As a consultant, I think that's

a mission critical piece.

718

:

Do you think, as a consultant, you

have a benefit in that you are not so

719

:

enmeshed in the politics and unique

things of each company, so you have this

720

:

perspective and you also get to do things

cyclically, so you bring that expertise.

721

:

The downside is, of course, you're

on three, four or five accounts so

722

:

You have a challenge of understanding

and caring as much about that

723

:

business as an internal team will do.

724

:

Do you balance those?

725

:

You know, there's a pro and a con there.

726

:

It seems to me.

727

:

Jen Igartua: totally.

728

:

Hey the big pro is I am

not trying to get promoted.

729

:

so removed from the inner workings

that you have a clarity that

730

:

you can't have from inside.

731

:

a lot of that comes because

I'm not affected by politics.

732

:

I'm not affected by somebody

getting promoted that I didn't,

733

:

I'm not trying to go after that.

734

:

And so that's removed and that certainly

gives you different kind of trust.

735

:

when I say I think a company should do

something, I'm not holding onto my tech.

736

:

I'm not holding onto my role, so I think

that there's inherently a value in that.

737

:

when you think about organizations

and consultants and the bad part

738

:

you highlighted, yes, they don't

work, you know, within the company.

739

:

So you might think like,

oh, are they aligned with.

740

:

The ethos of the company,

the culture, the outcome.

741

:

that my consultants are, and we've

done a lot of work to not have the

742

:

amount of context switching that you

are talking about we're working with

743

:

a little bit of larger companies.

744

:

The deals tend to be larger and

nobody's on any more than four

745

:

accounts at any given time.

746

:

we just do basically quarter

time staffing, so you can be 10,

747

:

20, or 40 hours on an account.

748

:

and so that allows you to not be working

on, you know, 18 accounts at once.

749

:

all depends on the kind of company.

750

:

If you're a consultancy that's going after

Series A companies and they only buying

751

:

10 hours a month, it's harder to do.

752

:

Again, I'm obsessed with

focus, so it's like how do you

753

:

create focus for your teams?

754

:

know, how do you make sure that

they're not context switching so much

755

:

that they're wasting time and that

clients aren't getting good work?

756

:

and that starts to, mitigate

some of those risks.

757

:

And that's why you need, I

think you need a blend of both.

758

:

will need to spike, you will need

specialists, you will want outside

759

:

counsel, know, get that from a

great partner, but also Build your

760

:

team and your skill sets and it's

more cost effective internally.

761

:

And a lot of times people will

push, but we wanna do it internally

762

:

because we wanna own that knowledge.

763

:

Your employees will leave.

764

:

So just make sure that you're balancing

out, all of that internally your

765

:

consulting partner documenting everything,

has multiple people with knowledge.

766

:

And I actually think that we

protect knowledge a lot when

767

:

there's churn within customers.

768

:

Justin Norris: You've been at Go

nimbly I think seven, eight years,

769

:

maybe even a bit longer, I was at an

agency for seven years and I was the

770

:

eighth employee I was with it through

that journey to about 50 or 60, and

771

:

then they were acquired by a much

larger agency, and that's when I left.

772

:

So I've played that game and I'm

curious what you've found challenges

773

:

and highlights along the way,

and experience going through that.

774

:

Jen Igartua: Okay, so when we started

Go Nimbly, I think the biggest thing

775

:

was I had been a consultant and was

just like, great, I can do this.

776

:

And at first, and I

encourage people to do this.

777

:

At first it was kind of

glorified contracting, right?

778

:

I'd find a client, would spend

20 hours a week on that client,

779

:

bill them, and I was like.

780

:

Feeling like I was running a consulting

company, but really there were

781

:

just a few of us billing hours to

clients then we start scaling it.

782

:

And I wanted to do, like, I kept pushing,

like doing things differently, like

783

:

selling like this kind of rev ops as

a service, like subscription and, the

784

:

way that we, Build hours and trying to

change the process of our consultants.

785

:

I had a kind of a reality check

of has been around a long time.

786

:

People have figured out how to run

professional services firms and

787

:

I needed to from those companies.

788

:

I started and following

a lot of people that.

789

:

Knew how to run successful

services, companies.

790

:

There's a, book called The

Boutique that's really amazing.

791

:

There's another one called the

Professional Services Firm, a very,

792

:

very cool title, and it talks about

all the things that it takes to run a

793

:

successful services business because

it's not just the skills the people.

794

:

There's so much that it takes to

run that smoothly that the processes

795

:

for my consultants are really

streamlined and they don't think about

796

:

billing hours and, that you are not

paying for our internal bullshit.

797

:

You're paying for outcomes.

798

:

have to think about shape

of your organization and

799

:

you're going to incentivize.

800

:

your consultants and your partners,

how are you going to sell?

801

:

And this has all been figured out

by a lot of very smart people.

802

:

You can innovate within them, but

I think I was spending a lot of

803

:

time trying to innovate on stuff

that didn't need innovation.

804

:

Justin Norris: In all the companies that

you're dealing with what innovations

805

:

in go to market are you seeing?

806

:

I think a lot about that.

807

:

You know, like there's inbound and

outbound and near bound and partner

808

:

led and community led and product led.

809

:

So what's kind of cool on the street

these days and what are you seeing?

810

:

Work well.

811

:

Jen Igartua: I think we are definitely

in the PLG hype space, and so

812

:

we're doing a lot of work with

our customers around product-led

813

:

sales and what that can look like.

814

:

we work with like Very

impressive SaaS companies.

815

:

I won't say who's who, but we've worked

with Twilio and Zendesk and Intercom

816

:

and PagerDuty and, I'm very, very

proud of all of these logos and what

817

:

we're really focused on in a couple

of things that have changed is in

818

:

this PLG cycle, how do I elevate?

819

:

Customers who are ready to buy that might

be active users or have churn risks, how

820

:

do I get that information, you know, as

signals into the sales and CSS team so

821

:

that I might be automatically creating

opportunities or automatically creating,

822

:

you know, churn risks so they can execute

their playbooks and actually creating

823

:

a really, really tight machine on that.

824

:

That's been Really exciting and we

have a couple of our customers going

825

:

through that process right now.

826

:

then I would add, the other thing is

obviously there's a huge focus on data

827

:

and how to make sure that we've got

data flowing through all of our systems.

828

:

I started on my career, and Justin,

you probably had the same thing.

829

:

idea was your source of

truth with Salesforce.

830

:

That's gone like that.

831

:

Nobody cares about putting every single

piece of data inside of Salesforce.

832

:

And instead we're working with data

warehouses and pushing, know, data

833

:

into the systems, like just the data

that's necessary into the system

834

:

that it needs to be in, and making

sure that that machine is working.

835

:

And we've been doing a lot of work

around that kind of data cleanliness

836

:

and, and customer data processes.

837

:

Justin Norris: Jen, this

is super interesting.

838

:

I love your thinking.

839

:

I love learning about you're doing.

840

:

Go nimbly.

841

:

Sounds like you've developed

a really tight ship.

842

:

grateful you spending time with me today.

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About the Podcast

RevOps FM
Thinking out loud about RevOps and go-to-market strategy.
This podcast is your weekly masterclass on becoming a better revenue operator. We challenge conventional wisdom and dig into what actually works for building predictable revenue at scale.

For show notes and extra resources, visit https://revops.fm/show

Key topics include: marketing technology, sales technology, marketing operations, sales operations, process optimization, team structure, planning, reporting, forecasting, workflow automation, and GTM strategy.

About your host

Profile picture for Justin Norris

Justin Norris

Justin has over 15 years as a marketing, operations, and GTM professional.

He's worked almost exclusively at startups, including a successful exit. As an operations consultant, he's been a trusted partner to numerous SaaS "unicorns" and Fortune 500s.